n729pa
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TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:24 am

An interesting article in memory of the 40th anniversary of the TE901 disaster in Antarctica.

Our thoughts are with them, and the people of New Zealand

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-50555046
 
Pcoder
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:33 am

I'm surprised this hasn't appeared on Air crash investigations/Mayday. It's a very unusual incident, with the remoteness of the crash causing many issues.
 
zkncj
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:57 am

Pcoder wrote:
I'm surprised this hasn't appeared on Air crash investigations/Mayday. It's a very unusual incident, with the remoteness of the crash causing many issues.


There was meant to be an one an couple of years back, but then it never got released maybe NZ’s lawyers had something todo with that.

It was meant to be in the same season that the was one about the NZ A320 that crashed during an acceptance flight in France.
 
VapourTrails
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:30 am

zkncj wrote:
Pcoder wrote:
I'm surprised this hasn't appeared on Air crash investigations/Mayday. It's a very unusual incident, with the remoteness of the crash causing many issues.


There was meant to be an one an couple of years back, but then it never got released maybe NZ’s lawyers had something todo with that.

It was meant to be in the same season that the was one about the NZ A320 that crashed during an acceptance flight in France.


Thanks for this info. I wonder whether the families of the deceased may also be a reason why some crashes have not made it into this series too.

Thank you for adding this anniversary post today - it reminded me. I had been - I still am, but not an easy thing to do - researching this as part of my trip report for the Antarctica flight, as a brief acknowledgement of the accident and the crash location.

Operation Overdue was the name given to the police operation that focused on the recovery. I came across this link for the first time today.. https://operationoverdue.co.nz/the-bigger-picture
 
BTV290
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:15 am

I'm working on my Masters in Aerospace Management right now, and I'm a Human Error and Safety class. We had to do a case study presentation, and this was the accident I chose. In all of my reading and research, it never dawned on me that this occurred 40 years ago. Crazy!
Such an unfortunate series of errors leading up to it--and then that cover up. Holy cow.
 
sevenair
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:26 am

A dirty legacy which still shames ANZ to this day. I for one won't be sad that they will soon no longer fly to my country. We are complicit in their covering up, defamation, mass murder and corruption. Good riddance.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:33 am

The aircraft involved in that tragedy.
 
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:47 am

sevenair wrote:
A dirty legacy which still shames ANZ to this day. I for one won't be sad that they will soon no longer fly to my country. We are complicit in their covering up, defamation, mass murder and corruption. Good riddance.



Good grief.

I wasn't born in 1979 however and its probably only my love of aviation that makes me somewhat aware of this tragic event.
 
Gangurru
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:59 am

This is an accident that provokes interesting responses and heated debate in these forums.

Today I remember family who still lie in Antarctica.

I give thanks to those brave men who endeavoured to bring as many back as possible. They risked their lives, paid a heavy emotional price and were not supported.

The lessons learned, particularly in the field of holstic accident investigation, have made the world a safer place.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:18 am

Pcoder wrote:
I'm surprised this hasn't appeared on Air crash investigations/Mayday. It's a very unusual incident, with the remoteness of the crash causing many issues.


Well, yes and no, but this was much more than just an air crash, and it was and it's still to this day perceived as a full scale National tragedy for New Zealand -some even arguing it changed the country forever- so it is to this day a very painful and sensitive matter to the Kiwis. I feel there's plenty of good reasons why NZ might have not let others turn this tragic accident into a dinner-time TV show.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:25 am

Gangurru wrote:
This is an accident that provokes interesting responses and heated debate in these forums.

Today I remember family who still lie in Antarctica.

I give thanks to those brave men who endeavoured to bring as many back as possible. They risked their lives, paid a heavy emotional price and were not supported.

The lessons learned, particularly in the field of holstic accident investigation, have made the world a safer place.


Indeed. Those rescuers have seen and done things no human should ever go through. Yet sadly they did so with little moral support, before, during or after. I know many of them have suffered long years of depression and PTSD.
I agree that alongside the many who were involved first-hand in this terrible tragedy, and those who of course lost loved ones, we should also remember those people who literally had to work with their bare hands through the scattered remains of the wreckage in such a hostile environment.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:11 pm

If you haven't read MacArthur Job's incredibly detailed books "Air Disasters", go and get all four editions. Incredibly well-written and thoroughly explained reports. NZ 901 is one of them.

One number written wrong caused this accident. That's it. The crew followed their instructions perfectly - but the instructions were wrong, leading to the crash.

Sadly, this was the third of three major DC-10 disasters in 1979, none of which were directly the fault of the design of the DC-10. Yes, yes, I know that AA 191 N110AA should have had full safety equipment, including the "optional" stick-shaker powered by a back-up engine should one fail - or fall off - but had AA not taken that maintenance shortcut, against McDonnell-Douglas' recommendation, the engine would never have come off. Western Airlines' crash at Mexico City was entirely on the flight crew, and this crash was based on one number changing.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:40 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
If you haven't read MacArthur Job's incredibly detailed books "Air Disasters", go and get all four editions. Incredibly well-written and thoroughly explained reports. NZ 901 is one of them.

One number written wrong caused this accident. That's it. The crew followed their instructions perfectly - but the instructions were wrong, leading to the crash.


I bought the book specifically to read that investigation. I love the detailed text and drawings these books offer to the reader. When I was appalled to find out it all depended on one single wrong number, an unforgiving mistake in such environment.
 
ltbewr
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:12 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
If you haven't read MacArthur Job's incredibly detailed books "Air Disasters", go and get all four editions. Incredibly well-written and thoroughly explained reports. NZ 901 is one of them.

One number written wrong caused this accident. That's it. The crew followed their instructions perfectly - but the instructions were wrong, leading to the crash.


I bought the book specifically to read that investigation. I love the detailed text and drawings these books offer to the reader. When I was appalled to find out it all depended on one single wrong number, an unforgiving mistake in such environment.

A co-worker, back in the 1990's had this series of books - Vols. 1-3 that I borrowed and read from cover to cover. Job's excellent detail and writing style made me become more interested in the subject of airline crashes, something that led in part to my visits to this website in the early 2000's and a member since 2003.
NZ 901 got very limited attention in the US news media at the time it happened, CNN wasn't around, only the 3 broadcast networks and newspapers. Job's book chapter got into the real detail of what happened, including the politicization of the investigation in NZ. Let us not forget the similar situations of wrong numbers put into the flight plan computers that led to KL007's shoot down after overflying unauthorized USSR airspace.
 
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:31 pm

ltbewr wrote:
NZ 901 got very limited attention in the US news media at the time it happened, CNN wasn't around, only the 3 broadcast networks and newspapers. Job's book chapter got into the real detail of what happened, including the politicization of the investigation in NZ. Let us not forget the similar situations of wrong numbers put into the flight plan computers that led to KL007's shoot down after overflying unauthorized USSR airspace.


You mean KE007, thankfully KLM haven't had an aircraft shot down.

And since I'm being pedantic TE901 in the thread title is correct. NZ wasn't adopted for international flights until 1990.


Back to the matter at hand, one of the lessor remembered matters in relation to this disaster was that the Privy Council all-but-shredded the conclusions of the Mahon Royal Commission and Air New Zealand ultimately won in court. The case was decided on a technicality (lack of procedural fairness as Mahon didn't give Air New Zealand the chance to respond to his finding of conspiracy) but this was a slap in the face to the families of the victims.
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okie73
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:08 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
If you haven't read MacArthur Job's incredibly detailed books "Air Disasters", go and get all four editions. Incredibly well-written and thoroughly explained reports. NZ 901 is one of them.

One number written wrong caused this accident. That's it. The crew followed their instructions perfectly - but the instructions were wrong, leading to the crash.

Sadly, this was the third of three major DC-10 disasters in 1979, none of which were directly the fault of the design of the DC-10. Yes, yes, I know that AA 191 N110AA should have had full safety equipment, including the "optional" stick-shaker powered by a back-up engine should one fail - or fall off - but had AA not taken that maintenance shortcut, against McDonnell-Douglas' recommendation, the engine would never have come off. Western Airlines' crash at Mexico City was entirely on the flight crew, and this crash was based on one number changing.



While I would agree the main cause of this crash were the wrong coordinates for a fix, I take issue with saying the crew followed instructions perfectly. The weather was below the published minimums and the captain chose to descend further in an attempt to reach VFR for the passengers to see something. Had he followed the published instructions, this crash would likely have never happened. That said, captains on previous flights had ignored the published minimums as well.
 
Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:16 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
One number written wrong caused this accident. That's it. The crew followed their instructions perfectly - but the instructions were wrong, leading to the crash.


Wrong. It isn't possible for "one written wrong number" to cause a crash now; and it wasn't in 1979. And the crew followed their "instructions" anything but perfectly.

The cause of this crash was the decision to perform an authorized cloud break procedure to 14,500' below minimum safe altitude in a mountainous Polar region in marginal VFR conditions. During the descent there were several warning signs that all was not well, but these were overlooked by the Captain who seemed to be suffering a complete lack of situational awareness.

That's why this aircraft crashed.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:28 pm

MacArthur Job was brilliant with his books detailing crashes and presenting them in an easy to understand format without being patronising. He was formerly a Flying Doctor pilot, and held a pilot licence until his death.

Image


Sadly he died in 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macarthur_Job
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dhcomet
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:34 pm

I think some of the posts here ignore the public apology issued on 28/11 by NZ Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and the chairwoman of Air NZ . Furthermore had anyone bothered to look into sector whiteout the crew were fooled into thinking they were in the clear. You can't blame a crew for flying into something they didn't knew existed. Ie sector whiteout. Frankly the comments here are ignorant.
 
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:36 pm

And Air NZ never disputed the findings that the pilots weren't to blame ...they disputed being called liars by the late Justice Peter Mahon.
 
Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:36 pm

okie73 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
That said, captains on previous flights had ignored the published minimums as well.


But none of them descended in quite the nasty overcast conditions that he did; and anyway "but they did it too!" is no defense.
 
NZ516
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:40 pm

For me what I find is the most haunting film clip of this tragedy. Is the recording of inside the cabin just minutes before impact showing passengers walking around with cameras in hand and cabin stewards serving meals they never knew what was about to come. This film was recovered from the crash site.
I was only 6 years old when it happened so too young to remember at the time of the crash.
 
Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:45 pm

dhcomet wrote:
I think some of the posts here ignore the public apology issued on 28/11 by NZ Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and the chairwoman of Air NZ . Furthermore had anyone bothered to look into sector whiteout the crew were fooled into thinking they were in the clear. You can't blame a crew for flying into something they didn't knew existed. Ie sector whiteout. Frankly the comments here are ignorant.


No, your own comments are ignorant. Firstly, "sector whiteout" is just a theory. We'll never know exactly what the flight crew saw, or thought they saw as they looked ahead. Secondly, backing up that particular truck for a moment, Collins knew (as all pilots hopefully know) that if you are in a narrow layer with cloud above you and snow below you, it can get pretty hard to tell one from the other. Words which, which dollops of irony Collins uttered as he descended - "pretty hard to tell the difference between snow and ice" he said. That quote is usually omitted by the "crew were blameless" crowd.

And down he went.
 
Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:51 am

Gasman wrote:
The cause of this crash was the decision to perform an authorized cloud break procedure to 14,500' below minimum safe altitude in a mountainous Polar region in marginal VFR conditions.


Should of course read "unauthorised". Apologies.
 
DH106
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:24 pm

I don't think there'll ever be a concensus on this one. As air crash causes go this is probably the most devisive one I know.
Regardless of the pilots' culpability or not though, Air New Zealand's conduct was shameful.
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Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:56 am

DH106 wrote:
I don't think there'll ever be a concensus on this one. As air crash causes go this is probably the most devisive one I know.
Regardless of the pilots' culpability or not though, Air New Zealand's conduct was shameful.


Agree. Shouldn't be divisive though; the causes behind this accident aren't that hard to understand really. The divisiveness has been caused by the existence of a theory (Mahon's) which sounds nice to laypeople and was well communicated but ultimately incorrect.

Was NZ's conduct shameful? Certainly the airline seemed more interested in ducking for cover than providing solace, but I'd use the word "clumsy" rather than shameful. A lot of people were shocked and scared. There's no evidence that anyone at Air NZ set out to pervert justice. You also have to remember this was 1979. Shredding documents etc. was considered okay. Go figure.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:24 am

Gasman wrote:
Was NZ's conduct shameful? Certainly the airline seemed more interested in ducking for cover than providing solace, but I'd use the word "clumsy" rather than shameful. A lot of people were shocked and scared. There's no evidence that anyone at Air NZ set out to pervert justice. You also have to remember this was 1979. Shredding documents etc. was considered okay. Go figure.


But is it really being clumsy or something more sinister?

There are far too many reports of attempted subterfuge by some of the involved within the airline. Surely if they were as innocent as they'd protested, they wouldn't have acted in the way that they did during the inquiry.

Case in point, Captain Collins' ring binder.
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SkyVoice
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:37 am

DH106 wrote:
I don't think there'll ever be a concensus on this one.


Agreed. I was in school in Louisville at the time, so I don't remember much about the crash's details at the time. One thing I do remember was that some pundits in the USA wanted to use this crash as another reason to keep the DC-10 grounded. That was unfair.

There was a TV ad for Air New Zealand that aired not long after the accident, IIRC. It was the only TV ad campaign that I have ever seen for TE. Some of you might remember it. The ad began with a man holding a Kiwi bird by its legs as he said, "If you think a Kiwi's a strange bird, you'd be right, Mate!" Do any of you know if that ad campaign was used to increase Air New Zealand's ridership following the accident, or was the ad campaign not connected with the accident at all?
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Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:40 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Gasman wrote:
Was NZ's conduct shameful? Certainly the airline seemed more interested in ducking for cover than providing solace, but I'd use the word "clumsy" rather than shameful. A lot of people were shocked and scared. There's no evidence that anyone at Air NZ set out to pervert justice. You also have to remember this was 1979. Shredding documents etc. was considered okay. Go figure.


But is it really being clumsy or something more sinister?

There are far too many reports of attempted subterfuge by some of the involved within the airline. Surely if they were as innocent as they'd protested, they wouldn't have acted in the way that they did during the inquiry.


Well, the highest court in the land - the Privy Council - found no evidence of subterfuge and reprimanded Justice Mahon for suggesting there was.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Case in point, Captain Collins' ring binder.


The simplest explanation is often the correct one - in this case being that the ring binder contained phone numbers which were prudent to remove before returning to the family. But even if this wasn't the case - it's impossible to imagine what "smoking gun" the pilot's notebook could have contained that was so damning as to warrant removal of the pages. Even if it contained a signed statement from the airline saying the track would take him down McMurdo - he still should not have descended in the conditions he had as low as he did.
 
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:07 am

oldannyboy wrote:
I feel there's plenty of good reasons why NZ might have not let others turn this tragic accident into a dinner-time TV show.

What could NZ possibly do to stop a British program from creating/broadcasting a documentary, based on long-public information, in foreign countries?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:11 am

LAX772LR wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
I feel there's plenty of good reasons why NZ might have not let others turn this tragic accident into a dinner-time TV show.

What could NZ possibly do to stop a British program from creating/broadcasting a documentary, based on long-public information, in foreign countries?

Exactly. It makes no sense.
 
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:25 am

n729pa wrote:
An interesting article in memory of the 40th anniversary of the TE901 disaster in Antarctica.

Our thoughts are with them, and the people of New Zealand

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-50555046


The cine clip attached to that article has to be one of the eeriest clips ever associated with an aviation disaster. One second the passengers are sipping drinks and wandering around the cabin taking pictures, then gone in an instant. It really makes you think.
 
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:30 am

Gasman wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
I feel there's plenty of good reasons why NZ might have not let others turn this tragic accident into a dinner-time TV show.

What could NZ possibly do to stop a British program from creating/broadcasting a documentary, based on long-public information, in foreign countries?

Exactly. It makes no sense.


It may be a straight forward case of pilot error with no other apparent cause worthy of the investigative style the tv show takes ?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:34 am

JannEejit wrote:
It may be a straight forward case of pilot error with no other apparent cause worthy of the investigative style the tv show takes ?

If that were the case, then they wouldn't have done an episode about AA965, and several other pilot/CFIT accidents.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:35 am

Gasman wrote:
Well, the highest court in the land - the Privy Council - found no evidence of subterfuge and reprimanded Justice Mahon for suggesting there was.


But that didn't stop them from saying the following - "Their Lordships accept unreservedly that the Judge was entitled to take the view that, upon this matter the evidence given by several of the executive pilots at the inquiry was false. But, even though false ... it cannot have formed part of a predetermined plan of deception."

So while there may not be hard evidence of a plan to deceive, there are evidence of some form of lying on the account of some of the witnesses. NZ might have gotten off on a technicality, but morally not so much.

Also the Privy Council did not dispute Mahon's findings as to the cause of the accident, only his allegations of Air New Zealand's attempt to subvert the course of justice. Which means to blame Captain Collins for the disaster is not correct.

LAX772LR wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
It may be a straight forward case of pilot error with no other apparent cause worthy of the investigative style the tv show takes ?

If that were the case, then they wouldn't have done an episode about AA965, and several other pilot/CFIT accidents.


It's probably because the case's findings is rather disputed and that it will have to involve events after the accident as well.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:37 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Gasman wrote:
Well, the highest court in the land - the Privy Council - found no evidence of subterfuge and reprimanded Justice Mahon for suggesting there was.


But that didn't stop them from saying the following - "Their Lordships accept unreservedly that the Judge was entitled to take the view that, upon this matter the evidence given by several of the executive pilots at the inquiry was false. But, even though false ... it cannot have formed part of a predetermined plan of deception."

So while there may not be hard evidence of a plan to deceive, there are evidence of some form of lying on the account of some of the witnesses. NZ might have gotten off on a technicality, but morally not so much.

Also the Privy Council did not dispute Mahon's findings as to the cause of the accident, only his allegations of Air New Zealand's attempt to subvert the course of justice. Which means to blame Captain Collins for the disaster is not correct.

LAX772LR wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
It may be a straight forward case of pilot error with no other apparent cause worthy of the investigative style the tv show takes ?

If that were the case, then they wouldn't have done an episode about AA965, and several other pilot/CFIT accidents.


You need to look at the whole chain of events.

1. Mahon is pretty convincingly brainwashed by ALPA from the outset and was not receptive to anything that doesn't support full responsibility of the airline. You can find evidence of it everywhere - key witnesses left out, no mention of key factors in his book.... anything that didn't support his view of the accident, he was blind to.

2. The evidence of Air NZ didn't support his view (critically, the navigation evidence), therefore the only way he could reconcile it was to say "they must have been lying".

3. The Privy Council did not repeat the analysis of the accident from the ground up - it wasn't part of their brief. They were simply looking for an organised plan of deception and there wasn't one. Persuaded my Mahons findings on the accident, as most laymen are, they simply rubber stamped them.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:05 pm

Gasman wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Gasman wrote:
Well, the highest court in the land - the Privy Council - found no evidence of subterfuge and reprimanded Justice Mahon for suggesting there was.


But that didn't stop them from saying the following - "Their Lordships accept unreservedly that the Judge was entitled to take the view that, upon this matter the evidence given by several of the executive pilots at the inquiry was false. But, even though false ... it cannot have formed part of a predetermined plan of deception."

So while there may not be hard evidence of a plan to deceive, there are evidence of some form of lying on the account of some of the witnesses. NZ might have gotten off on a technicality, but morally not so much.

Also the Privy Council did not dispute Mahon's findings as to the cause of the accident, only his allegations of Air New Zealand's attempt to subvert the course of justice. Which means to blame Captain Collins for the disaster is not correct.

LAX772LR wrote:
If that were the case, then they wouldn't have done an episode about AA965, and several other pilot/CFIT accidents.


You need to look at the whole chain of events.

1. Mahon is pretty convincingly brainwashed by ALPA from the outset and was not receptive to anything that doesn't support full responsibility of the airline. You can find evidence of it everywhere - key witnesses left out, no mention of key factors in his book.... anything that didn't support his view of the accident, he was blind to.

2. The evidence of Air NZ didn't support his view (critically, the navigation evidence), therefore the only way he could reconcile it was to say "they must have been lying".

3. The Privy Council did not repeat the analysis of the accident from the ground up - it wasn't part of their brief. They were simply looking for an organised plan of deception and there wasn't one. Persuaded my Mahons findings on the accident, as most laymen are, they simply rubber stamped them.


I'm sorry but this is incorrect. The Privy Council did not find that the conclusion of conspiracy was not open to Mahon, only that Air New Zealand should have been provided the opportunity to respond to the accusation and mount a defence. The case failed for lack of procedural fairness, not because the conclusion of the report itself was indefensible per se.

Additionally, if you are going to discredit the legacy of an esteemed late judge by saying he was brainwashed then I sincerely hope you can document that. Knowing in advance that you can't, this is nothing more than an opinion and should be acknowledged as such.
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Gasman
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:37 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
I'm sorry but this is incorrect. The Privy Council did not find that the conclusion of conspiracy was not open to Mahon, only that Air New Zealand should have been provided the opportunity to respond to the accusation and mount a defence. The case failed for lack of procedural fairness, not because the conclusion of the report itself was indefensible per se.


I'm sorry?? The Privy Council decreed that Mahon did not follow the rules of natural justice - this is about the harshest thing that can be said about a judge! If you won't take my word for it, maybe you'll take the word of Sir Geoffrey Palmer, another esteemed member of the legal profession who said "Justice Mahon was an eminent New Zealander and he did a lot of good things, but the Erebus report was not one of them".

RyanairGuru wrote:
Additionally, if you are going to discredit the legacy of an esteemed late judge by saying he was brainwashed then I sincerely hope you can document that. Knowing in advance that you can't, this is nothing more than an opinion and should be acknowledged as such.


Yes, no one can prove that Mahon was brainwashed or manipulated by ALPA but the evidence is everywhere. He was advised by them from the outset. To Mahon, ALPA were the plucky David to Air New Zealand's Goliath. It caused Mahon to lose impartiality. He started rejecting evidence he simply didn't like. Have you read his book? No mention of Collins's comment "difficult to tell the difference between cloud and ice". No real appreciation of the role of a high altitude NAV track. Key witnesses barred from the Commission. It goes on and on.

Setting up the Royal Commission as a one man band was one of a string of ill conceived actions in this whole legacy. Mahon did contribute positively to our understanding of it but the messianic status afforded to him by some isn't warranted. And many of us have a real problem with his conclusion that Collins & Cassin made no errors which contributed to the disaster.
 
FGITD
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:30 pm

JannEejit wrote:
n729pa wrote:
An interesting article in memory of the 40th anniversary of the TE901 disaster in Antarctica.

Our thoughts are with them, and the people of New Zealand

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-50555046


The cine clip attached to that article has to be one of the eeriest clips ever associated with an aviation disaster. One second the passengers are sipping drinks and wandering around the cabin taking pictures, then gone in an instant. It really makes you think.


As I recall, there's actually a photo out there taken literally at the moment of impact. As a sightseeing flight, I'm sure more than a few people were filming or taking photos at the exact moment.

The sheer desolation of this crash site is what struck me. One can imagine being on the ground, hearing the roar of the engines, the thunderous impact and then nothing but the wind.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:19 pm

Gasman wrote:
1. Mahon is pretty convincingly brainwashed by ALPA from the outset and was not receptive to anything that doesn't support full responsibility of the airline. You can find evidence of it everywhere - key witnesses left out, no mention of key factors in his book.... anything that didn't support his view of the accident, he was blind to.


And this brainwashing allegation is backed by evidence?

Gasman wrote:
2. The evidence of Air NZ didn't support his view (critically, the navigation evidence), therefore the only way he could reconcile it was to say "they must have been lying".


And yet we have Antarctic crews giving testimony that contradicts NZ's evidence. So did these pilots lie?

Gasman wrote:
3. The Privy Council did not repeat the analysis of the accident from the ground up - it wasn't part of their brief. They were simply looking for an organised plan of deception and there wasn't one. Persuaded my Mahons findings on the accident, as most laymen are, they simply rubber stamped them.


It may not been part of their brief, but they did dedicate a paragraph to commend Mahon for his thorough investigations - which I'd find to be implausible if the finding is flawed. Surely there would have been a mention of this flaw given that it directly led to Mahon's "orchestrated litany of lies" allegations.

FGITD wrote:
As I recall, there's actually a photo out there taken literally at the moment of impact. As a sightseeing flight, I'm sure more than a few people were filming or taking photos at the exact moment.


I believe it was shown in a documentary on Operation Overdue a few years back. There were splotches of oil being thrown up the window. Thankfully it was a view outside & not of the cabin because it would have been rather ghastly if there's a shot of the cabin on impact.
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ltbewr
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:41 am

You would think that with such a special flight that all the calculations, data inputs, flight plans and review with the pilots would have been checked and triple checked. Somehow something went very wrong here and it is sad how politics got into the investigation of the event.

I also find it interesting that the current PM, who got a lot of positive attention for her handling of the recent terror events in Christchurch, chose to make an apology along with the current CEO of NZ Air. I don't think the PM was even alive when this crash happened, but perhaps because of the terror event in Christchurch, some around her suggested she make the apology statement for one of the deadliest non-natural loss of life in the modern history of NZ before the terror event. As to the NZ CEO, it was likely as so long ago, that it was finally time to apologies too aside the PM and NZ end their stubbornness to take responsibility for what happened.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:42 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
And since I'm being pedantic TE901 in the thread title is correct. NZ wasn't adopted for international flights until 1990.


Could you explain that?
-Doc Lightning-

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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:57 am

DocLightning wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
And since I'm being pedantic TE901 in the thread title is correct. NZ wasn't adopted for international flights until 1990.


Could you explain that?


TE was used by Tasman Empire Airways, while NZ was used by the New Zealand National Airways Corporation. When the two airlines were merged to form Air New Zealand, they used TE for international flights and NZ for domestic flights. As RyanairGuru pointed out, they only used the NZ code for all flights in 1990, I suppose as a result of its privatization.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
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DocLightning
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:31 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
TE was used by Tasman Empire Airways, while NZ was used by the New Zealand National Airways Corporation. When the two airlines were merged to form Air New Zealand, they used TE for international flights and NZ for domestic flights. As RyanairGuru pointed out, they only used the NZ code for all flights in 1990, I suppose as a result of its privatization.


While I can see how TE could be used for this flight, the origin and (planned) destination were both in New Zealand. But maybe because they were using an aircraft that was part of the international fleet.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
DH106
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:33 am

FGITD wrote:
As I recall, there's actually a photo out there taken literally at the moment of impact. As a sightseeing flight, I'm sure more than a few people were filming or taking photos at the exact moment.


Indeed - that photo was published in Gordon Vette's book "Impact Erebus"
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark by the Tanhauser Gate....
 
barney captain
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:46 am

Southeast Of Disorder
 
Gangurru
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Re: TE901 28th November 1979 - 40th anniversary

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:37 am

DocLightning wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
TE was used by Tasman Empire Airways, while NZ was used by the New Zealand National Airways Corporation. When the two airlines were merged to form Air New Zealand, they used TE for international flights and NZ for domestic flights. As RyanairGuru pointed out, they only used the NZ code for all flights in 1990, I suppose as a result of its privatization.


While I can see how TE could be used for this flight, the origin and (planned) destination were both in New Zealand. But maybe because they were using an aircraft that was part of the international fleet.


The terminal used determined the designation code. All flights at international terminals used TE and domestic terminals NZ. The fleet would move between the two terminals eg 737s on some Pacific Island flights and, at times, 747s and 767s on domestic.

TE901 departed gate 2 from AKL international. On the 20th anniversary I was able to lay flowers the in memory of family lost. It was touching as I asked a ground staffer working if he knew which gate was used for TE901. He went a little pale as explained he’d dispatched the flight and he wanted to know why I’d approached him. We both laughed when I apologetically confessed it was because he looked like the oldest worker on shift.

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