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aemoreira1981
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:51 pm

max999 wrote:
BNEFlyer wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
I suspect the issue stems from a technicality about who was actually operating the flights.

For instance, it could be that Lufthansa CityLine operated these flights for Lufthansa, but the authority laid only with Lufthansa and not a subcontracted entity, meaning there was a discrepancy.


That's what I was thining, CityLine operated the SAN flights.


I've never heard of LH CityLine before. Can you someone tell me about this?

Is this their low cost subsidiary? Is the purpose of CityLine to fly to destinations that would not be profitable if flown by mainline LH?


Technically, CityLine (CL) is a regional subsidiary of Lufthansa used to operate regional flights. Their salaries are lower than mainline LH, and as such, eight A343s (one later written off) were transferred to be operated by CL. Two were later transferred to Eurowings, and only 3 remain with CL (these have Star Alliance livery). The two that went to Eurowings have since gone back to LH proper, as well as 2 of the other 5 A343s (excluding D-AIFA). The claim is that these flights had a different operator under a Lufthansa callsign under a wet-lease that was too long.
 
tommy1808
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:58 pm

max999 wrote:
BNEFlyer wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
I suspect the issue stems from a technicality about who was actually operating the flights.

For instance, it could be that Lufthansa CityLine operated these flights for Lufthansa, but the authority laid only with Lufthansa and not a subcontracted entity, meaning there was a discrepancy.


That's what I was thining, CityLine operated the SAN flights.


I've never heard of LH CityLine before. Can you someone tell me about this?

Is this their low cost subsidiary? Is the purpose of CityLine to fly to destinations that would not be profitable if flown by mainline LH?


Regional feeder Airline with scope, can a few fly limited long haul destinations with CityLine Cockpit and iirc Mainline Cabin Crew to reduce cost and more Y-heavy Cabin.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:03 pm

IADCA wrote:
Blaming the FAA for this is like blaming the police for someone parking in a handicapped space.


LH is German, where you can get a ticket for not locking your car as it encourages theft.
And I think the blame is not in the FAA for missed paper work on the LH side, but for needing hundreds of flights to notice.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
max999
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:04 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
max999 wrote:
BNEFlyer wrote:

That's what I was thining, CityLine operated the SAN flights.


I've never heard of LH CityLine before. Can you someone tell me about this?

Is this their low cost subsidiary? Is the purpose of CityLine to fly to destinations that would not be profitable if flown by mainline LH?


Regional feeder Airline with scope, can a few fly limited long haul destinations with CityLine Cockpit and iirc Mainline Cabin Crew to reduce cost and more Y-heavy Cabin.

Best regards
Thomas


If it's true that this mistake was caused by LH using the low cost CityLine subsidiary, then it's rather ironic that this low cost management decision resulted in a high cost mistake. I bet the fine amount erases any profits LH made using a cost cost subsidiary.
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B777LRF
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:13 pm

76er wrote:
Call me stupid, but I always thought we had full Open Skies between the US and the EU. Guess I’m too simplistic is this regard.


Wouldn't do that. But free to launch a transatlantic service does not mean freedom to operate outside regulations. Long of the short, you're free to start a route, but in some areas you have to abide by certain regulations of the destination country. Don't know which particular rule LH broke, probably something utterly trivial and inconsequential.

FAA fines are usually negotiated down to a much smaller figure than originally advertised..
Signature. You just read one.
 
787X30
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:21 pm

max999 wrote:
I've never heard of LH CityLine before. Can you someone tell me about this?

Is this their low cost subsidiary? Is the purpose of CityLine to fly to destinations that would not be profitable if flown by mainline LH?


Basically, it's their American Eagle. After operating as a fully owned intra-Euro-subsidiary since 1992, following lengthy negotiations with pilot-unions they were handed some heavy metal (some A343) that had operated for Lufthansa from delivery, to offer LH-product on lower-yielding routes new and old, like ATL, PHL, SJC, TPA or CUN.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:45 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
So, airports in the US don't cross-examine the eligibility of airlines to operate before granting slots?
And why only LH is in hot water and not the airports?

Neither SAN nor PHL are slot controlled.
 
UA735WL
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:12 pm

This is the FAA waving their saber and coming down hard on LH because they "lied" and operated the flights without realizing their ops spec was correct. Most FAA regulations are enforced by trust- the FAA could never employ enough personnel to actually check that the literal tomes of FARs are being followed by every operator every day. It falls on the operator to make sure they are in compliance (with the threat of massive penalties like fines as incentive to comply), and LH evidently slipped.

Having said that, it seems a bit ridiculous to levy such massive fine for flying to two airports perfectly capable of handling LH's airplanes safely. It's not like they decided to go land jets full of people on dirt strips and riverbeds. I don't think this violation posed even the slightest safety risk, just a paperwork issue.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
Varsity1
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:57 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
max999 wrote:
BNEFlyer wrote:

That's what I was thining, CityLine operated the SAN flights.


I've never heard of LH CityLine before. Can you someone tell me about this?

Is this their low cost subsidiary? Is the purpose of CityLine to fly to destinations that would not be profitable if flown by mainline LH?


Regional feeder Airline with scope, can a few fly limited long haul destinations with CityLine Cockpit and iirc Mainline Cabin Crew to reduce cost and more Y-heavy Cabin.

Best regards
Thomas



Sounds like the LH multiple airline shuffle game is getting too complex for LH to manage. This is an indicator of a loss of institutional control.

To put it in perspective, no other national or major airline has been cited for this. They are all audited once every 3 years at a minimum.

If BA/AF/KLM/JAL and the Mexican/Canadian carriers can keep up with their airport approvals with the FAA in the US, why can't LH? :scratchchin:

Even long distance loco carriers like Condor stay on top of this. LH has no excuse.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
stylo777
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:04 pm

Can we kindly put this CityLine and subsidiary topic aside; thats not the reason when the article CLEARLY mentions 333/744 operated flights - neither of both ever flown by LH CityLine.
 
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OA940
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:35 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Yeah the blame is 100% on Lufthansa. After all they're the ones who oversee the entire US aviation industry and are supposed to prevent this from happening...

Some of yall really try too hard to shift blame away from those who clearly are at blame.

Also like someone else said, why are they not also involving the airports in this? It's just as much the airports' fault as it is the FAA's and LH's, even though I'm really doubting the legitimacy of this.


So if you run a red light 100 times, and on the 101st time you get pulled over and get a ticket, it’s the traffic cop’s fault that you ran the red light all those other times?


Literally no, but in the sense that he didn't stop you those 100 times then it most certainly is. It's kind of his job you know. He's supposed to ''keep the streets safe'' per se. If one of the 100 times he didn't pull the speeding dude over he happened to collide with another vehicle you bet your rear end that cop would lose his job and probably face charges as well. And, in this specific instance it's even more serious. If the allegations are true that means the FAA just sat around for 3 months and let this happen and is now bitching about it. No doubt LH is at fault, but the FAA (and imo the airports as well) are just as much at fault. It shows a disturbing lack of oversight, and a drastic need of change in how the system works.
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louA340
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:58 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
This is quite clear, LH has failed to complete the necessary paperwork. This is similar to NZ having one of their 789s turned back from China because it was not updated with the Chinese authorities. Airlines have to submit a list of planes they intend to operate to a country. This is part of the reason why some planes stick on short haul or domestic flights right after delivery. A paperwork issue with a newer plane is easier to be discovered than one of an older plane, because it is quite easy to assume that it has already been registered with authorities of the destination country.

The issue with LH is that they have quite a few subsidiaries doing everything and anything for each other, so it may be a bit of a task finding out what plane does what and by which crew.


My thoughts exactly, it's like the Brussels airlines that had to turn back halfway over the Atlantic because proper paperwork hadn't been done. That particular aircraft had recently come from Lufthansa and was not on yet the Ops spec and so didn't have permission to land in the US.

http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/lufth ... tive-issue
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:21 pm

The airport authorities do NOT enforce OpsSpecs, so blaming them is a non-starter. I’m sure, except for the FAA paperwork, everything was arranged at the respective airports and they were none the wiser on LH’s OpsSpecs, which probably were on their paperwork as alternates.

Tempest in an A.net teapot.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:25 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Yeah the blame is 100% on Lufthansa. After all they're the ones who oversee the entire US aviation industry and are supposed to prevent this from happening...

Some of yall really try too hard to shift blame away from those who clearly are at blame.

Also like someone else said, why are they not also involving the airports in this? It's just as much the airports' fault as it is the FAA's and LH's, even though I'm really doubting the legitimacy of this.


So if you run a red light 100 times, and on the 101st time you get pulled over and get a ticket, it’s the traffic cop’s fault that you ran the red light all those other times?

The FAA seems to be able to fine LH for all the 100 times they ran the red light even though the FAA didn't notice. A reasonable fine would be a one time fine when caught and then another if they don't immediately (within a reasonable time frame) rectify the situation and so on.
 
kalvado
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:47 pm

FredrikHAD wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Yeah the blame is 100% on Lufthansa. After all they're the ones who oversee the entire US aviation industry and are supposed to prevent this from happening...

Some of yall really try too hard to shift blame away from those who clearly are at blame.

Also like someone else said, why are they not also involving the airports in this? It's just as much the airports' fault as it is the FAA's and LH's, even though I'm really doubting the legitimacy of this.


So if you run a red light 100 times, and on the 101st time you get pulled over and get a ticket, it’s the traffic cop’s fault that you ran the red light all those other times?

The FAA seems to be able to fine LH for all the 100 times they ran the red light even though the FAA didn't notice. A reasonable fine would be a one time fine when caught and then another if they don't immediately (within a reasonable time frame) rectify the situation and so on.

LH and FAA are likely to negotiate a much smaller fine, as far as I understand. $4M is just a starting bid by FAA to demonstrate the gravity of LH wrongdoing.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:01 pm

Why do I feel like the FAA is trying to cover its ass after the MAX fiasco by acting like their acting tough?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
ikramerica
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:10 pm

Is it the health department’s fault that a restaurant has had rats for 2 months but they were only discovered during an inspection?
Is it the fire department’s fault that a building’s extinguishers were 8 months past recharge when the inspection is a once a year thing?
Businesses are responsible for their own compliance even when there are regulatory bodies. And if they get caught out of compliance fines should be punitive to deter future non-compliance by everyone.
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why do I feel like the FAA is trying to cover its ass after the MAX fiasco by acting like their acting tough?

You will have to answer that question for yourself.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:48 pm

ikramerica wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why do I feel like the FAA is trying to cover its ass after the MAX fiasco by acting like their acting tough?

You will have to answer that question for yourself.


It's a valid question. Why only now are the FAA taking action on this?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
kavok
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:53 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Is it the health department’s fault that a restaurant has had rats for 2 months but they were only discovered during an inspection?
Is it the fire department’s fault that a building’s extinguishers were 8 months past recharge when the inspection is a once a year thing?
Businesses are responsible for their own compliance even when there are regulatory bodies. And if they get caught out of compliance fines should be punitive to deter future non-compliance by everyone.
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why do I feel like the FAA is trying to cover its ass after the MAX fiasco by acting like their acting tough?

You will have to answer that question for yourself.


Exactly.

LH got caught. The FAA caught them. It is not the FAAs responsibility to waste a bunch of tax payer dollars paying enough people to check daily that every airline is in compliance of every rule and law. LH got caught, and will pay a fine. Hopefully the fine is severe enough to deter them (and other airlines) from doing it in the future.

That is called good fiscal management of staffing by the FAA.
 
kavok
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:00 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why do I feel like the FAA is trying to cover its ass after the MAX fiasco by acting like their acting tough?

You will have to answer that question for yourself.


It's a valid question. Why only now are the FAA taking action on this?


Because it was likely just caught. So what. Why does matter when it was caught?
 
Varsity1
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:05 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why do I feel like the FAA is trying to cover its ass after the MAX fiasco by acting like their acting tough?

You will have to answer that question for yourself.


It's a valid question. Why only now are the FAA taking action on this?


It was a paperwork illegality caught in an audit.

Do you expect the IRS to fine you 365 days in a row that you don't pay taxes? It's not looked at every single day.
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32andBelow
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:13 am

sadiqutp wrote:
So, airports in the US don't cross-examine the eligibility of airlines to operate before granting slots?
And why only LH is in hot water and not the airports?

We don’t use slots in the Us except in rare cases.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:31 am

Shocking, innit? Except for DCA, LGA, EWR, ORD and JFK, no slots required. One of those might have been dropped, too.
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:52 am

Doesn't the FAA have offices and staff in major US airports? some employee must have at some point said "oh look we weren't told LH was gonna fly here!". I find that odd. And even if it's Lufty's fault, 6.5mill seems quite a fine for a bureaucratic mistake that likely didn't endanger anybody.
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NWADTWE16
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:00 am

This is what happens when airlines consolidate into huge blobs with sub units that make no sense to retain. LH group, and IAG are both guilty of this type of behavior and neither cares much about anything else but money. Perhaps then the 6.5 million is something that will at least cause them to ponder.

Hard to defend the current regulation authorities in the U.S. but that's a different story (see: any thread about boeing)
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Varsity1
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:02 am

AtomicGarden wrote:
Doesn't the FAA have offices and staff in major US airports? some employee must have at some point said "oh look we weren't told LH was gonna fly here!". I find that odd. And even if it's Lufty's fault, 6.5mill seems quite a fine for a bureaucratic mistake that likely didn't endanger anybody.


It doesn't work like that at all.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:10 am

Varsity1 wrote:
AtomicGarden wrote:
Doesn't the FAA have offices and staff in major US airports? some employee must have at some point said "oh look we weren't told LH was gonna fly here!". I find that odd. And even if it's Lufty's fault, 6.5mill seems quite a fine for a bureaucratic mistake that likely didn't endanger anybody.


It doesn't work like that at all.


I'm sure it doesn't. But how come a new major airline flying into a major airport, didn't raise any eyebrows?
You killed a black astronaut, Cyril! That's like killing a unicorn!
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:14 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Shocking, innit? Except for DCA, LGA, EWR, ORD and JFK, no slots required. One of those might have been dropped, too.


EWR lost its slots a couple of years ago. ORD has been slot-free for over a decade.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
kavok
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:29 am

AtomicGarden wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
AtomicGarden wrote:
Doesn't the FAA have offices and staff in major US airports? some employee must have at some point said "oh look we weren't told LH was gonna fly here!". I find that odd. And even if it's Lufty's fault, 6.5mill seems quite a fine for a bureaucratic mistake that likely didn't endanger anybody.


It doesn't work like that at all.


I'm sure it doesn't. But how come a new major airline flying into a major airport, didn't raise any eyebrows?


Again, they got caught. You are acting as if something was missed. It wasn’t. I sure hope there isn’t someone being paid by the FAA on the public tax rolls that is twiddling their thumbs for years at a time with the role of instantly enforcing a rule that is rarely violated.

The truth is the enforcer probably was doing other tasks and just now got around to it. And for a paperwork violation, that is probably the way it should be. As far as the fine amount, this is a multi billion dollar corporation we are talking about. If the fine is too small, there is no teeth in the enforcement, and thus minimal incentive for compliance.
 
kalvado
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:30 am

Varsity1 wrote:
AtomicGarden wrote:
Doesn't the FAA have offices and staff in major US airports? some employee must have at some point said "oh look we weren't told LH was gonna fly here!". I find that odd. And even if it's Lufty's fault, 6.5mill seems quite a fine for a bureaucratic mistake that likely didn't endanger anybody.


It doesn't work like that at all.

Probably LH still filed - and got approved - flight plans to those airports. They also passed ADIZ.
Question is if anything verified at those stages, or Islamic State Air would only have to pay a fine some 2 years after landing at DCA with some pax without proper visas. Fine for for vioaltion of perimeter rules, I assume.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:43 am

kavok wrote:
Again, they got caught. You are acting as if something was missed. It wasn’t. I sure hope there isn’t someone being paid by the FAA on the public tax rolls that is twiddling their thumbs for years at a time with the role of instantly enforcing a rule that is rarely violated.

The truth is the enforcer probably was doing other tasks and just now got around to it. And for a paperwork violation, that is probably the way it should be. As far as the fine amount, this is a multi billion dollar corporation we are talking about. If the fine is too small, there is no teeth in the enforcement, and thus minimal incentive for compliance.


I don't understand this notion of being "caught". I thought it was publicly know they were using Cityline at PHL and SAN.
 
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Terrier79
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FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:20 am

PHLspecial wrote:
I don't understand this notion of being "caught". I thought it was publicly know they were using Cityline at PHL and SAN.

Absolutely. And they hardly hid the aircraft types and schedules, right? It’s not that they pretended the 747-400 landing at PHL was actually an A340-300, for example.
It looks like bad paperwork, but presuming intentional fraud seems to be very far-fetched.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:43 am

PHLspecial wrote:
kavok wrote:
Again, they got caught. You are acting as if something was missed. It wasn’t. I sure hope there isn’t someone being paid by the FAA on the public tax rolls that is twiddling their thumbs for years at a time with the role of instantly enforcing a rule that is rarely violated.

The truth is the enforcer probably was doing other tasks and just now got around to it. And for a paperwork violation, that is probably the way it should be. As far as the fine amount, this is a multi billion dollar corporation we are talking about. If the fine is too small, there is no teeth in the enforcement, and thus minimal incentive for compliance.


I don't understand this notion of being "caught". I thought it was publicly know they were using Cityline at PHL and SAN.



The issue isn’t that they were sneaking around. The issue is that LH never got the formal government approval to provide regular operations at SAN or PHL. That is on LH.

The fact that this went on for years is on the FAA.
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SANMAN66
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:55 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
. Was SAN also a CityLine destination?


SAN is a LH mainline destination.
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par13del
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:57 am

Web500sjc wrote:
The issue isn’t that they were sneaking around. The issue is that LH never got the formal government approval to provide regular operations at SAN or PHL. That is on LH.

The fact that this went on for years is on the FAA.

So what you are saying is that LH should still have been waiting for FAA approval to start flights to both cities?
So is the FBI or CIA launching a criminal / international investigation to see who gave LH the impression that the US government approved their flights?
How did the TSA another government body allow the a/c pax to deplane and board these illegal flights, what is the TSA role here?
How about TSA ultimate authority, Home Land, are they also investigating?
The fine is one thing, the gaping security hole is another.
 
acentauri
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:28 am

LH operates the A340-300 to SAN, however they only use the 747 or A340-600 to PHL. The A340-300 may be CityLine, but the PHL aircraft are definitely
Mainline LH. So the issue is likely unrelated to the use of CityLine - at least for the PHL flights.
 
Varsity1
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:32 am

All this proves is A.net doesn't understand commercial aviation. Simpletons.

The TSA/Airport/ATC/DHS you name it doesn't care about LH's C070 provision of their opspec. They can operate to any airport they want in the US via open skies bilaterals, but they still have to file the paperwork to do it, just as they have been for the past 60 years. They didn't, and got caught.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
kalvado
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Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:10 am

Varsity1 wrote:
All this proves is A.net doesn't understand commercial aviation. Simpletons.

The TSA/Airport/ATC/DHS you name it doesn't care about LH's C070 provision of their opspec. They can operate to any airport they want in the US via open skies bilaterals, but they still have to file the paperwork to do it, just as they have been for the past 60 years. They didn't, and got caught.

Another aspect of it - if it was done for 60 years, maybe it is time to review and eliminate meaningless steps?
Document flows are (well, sholud be) designed so that each step has some meaningful action behind, and steps are interlocked into the flow.
For example: I have, and drive, a car. In order to do that, I need to get it registered and get license plates. In order to do that, I need an identification - driver license; and insurance certificate. In order to get insurance, I need provide the license. To get a license, I need to prove my identity and pass driving test.
It is possile to fall through cracks, but overall there is an interlocked chain.

So, why nobody asked for "op specs" as the flight was set up? Probably because that document is orphaned in a flow and actually not needed except for historic reasons? Or if it is actually needed - who failed to verify it? Name, position, sanctions taken towards that government employee?
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:34 am

They had authority to operate the flights the issue was with the aircraft they were using. Yes - the type of aircraft matters. SAN was supposed to be a 330 but operated by A340 and PHL approved as a330 but operated by a 747. The C070 can have different aircraft authorizations for different airports.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2665
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:42 am

DAL763ER wrote:
Hasn't Lufthansa been operating to PHL and SAN longer than the alleged issue? If so, why has it suddenly come up?


For the record, LH has been serving PHL for well over 50 years.
 
User avatar
Web500sjc
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:47 am

par13del wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
The issue isn’t that they were sneaking around. The issue is that LH never got the formal government approval to provide regular operations at SAN or PHL. That is on LH.

The fact that this went on for years is on the FAA.

So what you are saying is that LH should still have been waiting for FAA approval to start flights to both cities?
So is the FBI or CIA launching a criminal / international investigation to see who gave LH the impression that the US government approved their flights?
How did the TSA another government body allow the a/c pax to deplane and board these illegal flights, what is the TSA role here?
How about TSA ultimate authority, Home Land, are they also investigating?
The fine is one thing, the gaping security hole is another.


If the FAA had been asked for permission, and not given approval, the FAA would have been much quicker in addressing the issue (Likely in a much more vocal way). It is more likely that permission was never asked.


The more relevant question is, what does the C090 do? At a minimum it is a legal requirement, that must be completed and up to date.
Boiler Up!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12893
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:04 am

Varsity1 wrote:
The TSA/Airport/ATC/DHS you name it doesn't care about LH's C070 provision of their opspec. They can operate to any airport they want in the US via open skies bilaterals, but they still have to file the paperwork to do it, just as they have been for the past 60 years. They didn't, and got caught.


Nice detraction. The simple fact remains that other airlines, including LH subsidiaries, did get caught en route for the first trip when using as much as the same type with a different registration, so obviously there is a process in place to catch these sorts of things, yet that process completely failed over hundreds of flights.

Is the urge to defend that, lets call it recently under performing agency, so strong that you can´t get to the point of saying "LH probably did screw up and deserved to be fined, but the FAA completely screwed the pooch on this one too?" Paperwork being fishy is the kind of thing that gets fighters in the air to take a look. Gosh, even the country no one take seriously, Austria, when it comes to keeping a check on its airspace can detect oddities in a flight plan and send a fighter to look before the planes crosses that tiny nation....... and yes, that was with normal radio communication with the cockpit.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
German isn't the best language in the world to curse in


you don´t know the right Germans i guess.... the ability to construct arbitrary longs words grammatically correct makes it an excellent language to swear in.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 785
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:33 am

Terrier79 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
I don't understand this notion of being "caught". I thought it was publicly know they were using Cityline at PHL and SAN.

Absolutely. And they hardly hid the aircraft types and schedules, right? It’s not that they pretended the 747-400 landing at PHL was actually an A340-300, for example.
It looks like bad paperwork, but presuming intentional fraud seems to be very far-fetched.

Its a paperwork error, but it's not just the aircraft type that is required, the actual registration has to be submitted too.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13040
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:03 am

bhxalex wrote:
Quite a baffling and concerning oversight from the FAA.

Storm in a tea cup though and such a steep fine seems unnecessary and pointless.


They obviously need the money !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2058
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:14 am

kavok wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
You will have to answer that question for yourself.


It's a valid question. Why only now are the FAA taking action on this?


Because it was likely just caught. So what. Why does matter when it was caught?


Because there's a difference between honestly having an issue with something and trying to divert people's attention from your own failing by making a grandstanding gesture.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
787X30
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:16 am

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:48 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
They had authority to operate the flights the issue was with the aircraft they were using. Yes - the type of aircraft matters. SAN was supposed to be a 330 but operated by A340 and PHL approved as a330 but operated by a 747. The C070 can have different aircraft authorizations for different airports.


SAN was planned and op. with A340 from the start, PHL, over the decades, has seen all of LHs longhaul fleet minus the A350.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:23 pm

kalvado wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
All this proves is A.net doesn't understand commercial aviation. Simpletons.

The TSA/Airport/ATC/DHS you name it doesn't care about LH's C070 provision of their opspec. They can operate to any airport they want in the US via open skies bilaterals, but they still have to file the paperwork to do it, just as they have been for the past 60 years. They didn't, and got caught.

Another aspect of it - if it was done for 60 years, maybe it is time to review and eliminate meaningless steps?
Document flows are (well, sholud be) designed so that each step has some meaningful action behind, and steps are interlocked into the flow.
For example: I have, and drive, a car. In order to do that, I need to get it registered and get license plates. In order to do that, I need an identification - driver license; and insurance certificate. In order to get insurance, I need provide the license. To get a license, I need to prove my identity and pass driving test.
It is possile to fall through cracks, but overall there is an interlocked chain.

So, why nobody asked for "op specs" as the flight was set up? Probably because that document is orphaned in a flow and actually not needed except for historic reasons? Or if it is actually needed - who failed to verify it? Name, position, sanctions taken towards that government employee?


Meaningless steps? The Opspecs are the holy grail document of every air carrier. In the governments eyes it's literally the DNA document of the airline. They outline approvals such as ETOPS, Hazmat, Intl Flag operations.

If LH filed for approval to fly the A380 into an airport that cannot handle the A380, or a wide body into an airport that can't handle it (pavement weight limits for example, or airport firefighting capeabilities) the opspecs approval process would be the denial. The FAA doesn't sit around all day watching flightaware, they trust air carriers to do what they are approved to do, especially established ones like LH.

The FAA has trusted LH for a long time, this audit caught LH in the wrong. LH apologists just can't get over the fact that LH messed up, and it's entirely their fault.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:25 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
kavok wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

It's a valid question. Why only now are the FAA taking action on this?


Because it was likely just caught. So what. Why does matter when it was caught?


Because there's a difference between honestly having an issue with something and trying to divert people's attention from your own failing by making a grandstanding gesture.


You realize that 135 carriers are fined all the time? Sometimes millions as well. It doesn't make the news because nobody cares. 121 carriers rarely make these severe of mistakes.

Don't believe me? Look at things like this: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2018-07-05/faa-alleges-illegal-charters-hincojet

The precedence is strong, concrete strong.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14426
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:50 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
All this proves is A.net doesn't understand commercial aviation. Simpletons.

The TSA/Airport/ATC/DHS you name it doesn't care about LH's C070 provision of their opspec. They can operate to any airport they want in the US via open skies bilaterals, but they still have to file the paperwork to do it, just as they have been for the past 60 years. They didn't, and got caught.

Another aspect of it - if it was done for 60 years, maybe it is time to review and eliminate meaningless steps?
Document flows are (well, sholud be) designed so that each step has some meaningful action behind, and steps are interlocked into the flow.
For example: I have, and drive, a car. In order to do that, I need to get it registered and get license plates. In order to do that, I need an identification - driver license; and insurance certificate. In order to get insurance, I need provide the license. To get a license, I need to prove my identity and pass driving test.
It is possile to fall through cracks, but overall there is an interlocked chain.

So, why nobody asked for "op specs" as the flight was set up? Probably because that document is orphaned in a flow and actually not needed except for historic reasons? Or if it is actually needed - who failed to verify it? Name, position, sanctions taken towards that government employee?


Meaningless steps? The Opspecs are the holy grail document of every air carrier. In the governments eyes it's literally the DNA document of the airline. They outline approvals such as ETOPS, Hazmat, Intl Flag operations.

If LH filed for approval to fly the A380 into an airport that cannot handle the A380, or a wide body into an airport that can't handle it (pavement weight limits for example, or airport firefighting capeabilities) the opspecs approval process would be the denial. The FAA doesn't sit around all day watching flightaware, they trust air carriers to do what they are approved to do, especially established ones like LH.

The FAA has trusted LH for a long time, this audit caught LH in the wrong. LH apologists just can't get over the fact that LH messed up, and it's entirely their fault.


Your last paragraph is spot on, but the penultimate one is a hair dramatic at least with regard to PHL, no? A new (and, unlike the 388, not difficult from a handling perspective) type to a longstanding station just isn’t that significant from an FAA safety or planning perspective. SAN is somewhat different as a new station that has some unique operational issues, although now that 27 has a precision approach SAN isn’t as odd as it once was.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1098
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: FAA accuses Lufthansa of illegal flights

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:51 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
German isn't the best language in the world to curse in


you don´t know the right Germans i guess.... the ability to construct arbitrary longs words grammatically correct makes it an excellent language to swear in.

best regards
Thomas


Most Germans I know switch to English...but I LOVE the insanity of those long German words!!

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