https://www.mpfinance.com/fin/instantf2 ... e=20191128 (Chinese source)
After last month when HX axed their Los Angeles flight and reduced their Asian flight as a response to Hong Kong government's concern on their financial situation (not sure why the thread discussing this on Anet have been deleted), there are now rumor on the media that they are going to delay November salary payout by a week (the legal limit in Hong Kong law) and axe the Vancouver fligjt by December 2nd (which is still bookable for the time being). HX have not commented on the situation yet.

Unsurprising

I can confirm after checking the GDS system that all HU HKG-YVR-HKG flights are zerod out for sale effective 09Dec.

The last flight that has seats available for sale is on Sat 07Dec.

behramjee wrote:

I can confirm after checking the GDS system that all HU HKG-YVR-HKG flights are zerod out for sale effective 09Dec.

The last flight that has seats available for sale is on Sat 07Dec.

2019? Or 2020? HKG-LAX doesn’t even end until February 8, 2020.

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

SQ32 wrote:

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

On what warped planet does that make you happy?

People aren't going to be paid on-time, and if things in HK continue the way they are going then people will undoubtedly loose their jobs. Not to mention that people have died in the situation that has gotten the airport and airline to this point.

c933103 wrote:

https://www.mpfinance.com/fin/instantf2.php?node=1574933433489&issue=20191128 (Chinese source)
After last month when HX axed their Los Angeles flight and reduced their Asian flight as a response to Hong Kong government's concern on their financial situation (not sure why the thread discussing this on Anet have been deleted), there are now rumor on the media that they are going to delay November salary payout by a week (the legal limit in Hong Kong law) and axe the Vancouver fligjt by December 2nd (which is still bookable for the time being). HX have not commented on the situation yet.

The source is saying Feb 2nd, 2020 as the ending date for HKG-YVR.

Otherwise, I seriously don’t know how long HX is going to last. They are deep in the red and even if they make a profit again by making deep cuts, it will only be used to cover their previous loss.

Ishrion wrote:

behramjee wrote:

I can confirm after checking the GDS system that all HU HKG-YVR-HKG flights are zerod out for sale effective 09Dec.

The last flight that has seats available for sale is on Sat 07Dec.

2019? Or 2020? HKG-LAX doesn’t even end until February 8, 2020.

09 Dec 2019

RyanairGuru wrote:

SQ32 wrote:

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

On what warped planet does that make you happy?

People aren't going to be paid on-time, and if things in HK continue the way they are going then people will undoubtedly loose their jobs. Not to mention that people have died in the situation that has gotten the airport and airline to this point.

Judging from his/her user name, the OP is most likely a Singaporean. Singapore has always been jealous that HK is better than them.

Kidding aside, just bc HKG falls doesn’t mean those traffic goes to Changi. I will give credit to Changi Airport being better than HKIA, though.

Back on topic, though, HX had been going nowhere for awhile, all the protest did was hastening its downfall.

don't think HX is surviving much longer. HK has plenty of competition from foreign carriers. It doesn't need 2 carriers.

Perfect opportunity for CX to grab the slots. But wait... look at the situation in HK, oh no!

Kidding.

Perhaps this will be an opportunity for CX to expand.

J343 wrote:

Perfect opportunity for CX to grab the slots. But wait... look at the situation in HK, oh no!

Kidding.

Perhaps this will be an opportunity for CX to expand.

HKG is allowing carriers to retain slots even if they’re not using them.

Any HKer who can read English well and has business sense will realize that it is far cheaper to buy tickets from airlines relying on foreign PoS at this point in time, so no big deal for now.

Still a shame Jetstar HK never happened though, a second, seperate airline run like an actual, well-functioning company (why is that so hard to find?) would pay dividends there.

Seems like HX will soon follow TG soon in nearing for bankruptcy and if it happens, what will happen to the rest of HNA Aviation? And also, HKG lost most passengers due to protests.

Okay never mind, HKG-YVR is gone effective December 9, 2019.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -dec-2019/

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/ ... 191129.htm (Chinese Link)
HX will be ending its Vancouver flight from February 12, 2020, last flight to YVR will be HX080 departing on February 10, 2020, last flight from YVR will be HX081 departing on February 10, 2020.
HX will be ending its HoChiMinh City flight from February 20, 2020, last flight to SGN will be HX538 departing on February 19, 2020, last flight from SGN will be HX539 departing on February 20, 2020.
HX will be ending its Tianjin flight from February 10, 2020, last flight to TSN will be HX362 departing on February 9, 2020, last flight from TSN will be HX363 departing on February 10, 2020.

Rumors say that one of their fuel suppliers will cut their HKG fuel supply at the midnight of 30 November

SQ32 wrote:

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

What a truly sad person. Don't worry, HKIA will be back.

Ishrion wrote:

J343 wrote:

Perfect opportunity for CX to grab the slots. But wait... look at the situation in HK, oh no!

Kidding.

Perhaps this will be an opportunity for CX to expand.

HKG is allowing carriers to retain slots even if they’re not using them.

That is interesting to know. Thank you! I wonder what happened to NZ and QF's HKG-LHR slots?

When you can’t pay salaries, then that is normally game over.

itisi wrote:

SQ32 wrote:

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

What a truly sad person. Don't worry, HKIA will be back.

I am sympathetic to SQ32 viewpoint as I think it is a result of censoring of news in mainland China. I think what we are seeing with Hong Kong Airlines is actually fairly representative of the true business situation within mainland China airlines. All of the mainland Chinese airlines have had a horrible year, we discussed it recently the massive loss of 3.1 billion on international routes alone viewtopic.php?t=1434035

Hong Kong Airlines has in my view been unfairly encumbered as the major shareholder the HNA group took cash out of the airline to try and fill problems elsewhere in the conglomerate. We have seen the HNA group have massive asset sales and even miss on bonds maturing. Numerous HNA group aircraft have not been picked up as they do not have the funds to pay for them. Hong Kong Airlines A350s have also been flown to France to put into storage. I have also heard that mainland Chinese airlines that have leased aircraft from Hong Kong Airlines have made things worse as they have fallen behind on their lease payments with their own financial problems.

November is traditionally a quiet time of year, and other recent events have put further pressure on loads.

itisi wrote:

SQ32 wrote:

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

What a truly sad person. Don't worry, HKIA will be back.

Are you familiar with the expression "that ship has sailed"?

zeke wrote:

itisi wrote:

SQ32 wrote:

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

What a truly sad person. Don't worry, HKIA will be back.

I am sympathetic to SQ32 viewpoint as I think it is a result of censoring of news in mainland China. I think what we are seeing with Hong Kong Airlines is actually fairly representative of the true business situation within mainland China airlines. All of the mainland Chinese airlines have had a horrible year, we discussed it recently the massive loss of 3.1 billion on international routes alone viewtopic.php?t=1434035

Hong Kong Airlines has in my view been unfairly encumbered as the major shareholder the HNA group took cash out of the airline to try and fill problems elsewhere in the conglomerate. We have seen the HNA group have massive asset sales and even miss on bonds maturing. Numerous HNA group aircraft have not been picked up as they do not have the funds to pay for them. Hong Kong Airlines A350s have also been flown to France to put into storage. I have also heard that mainland Chinese airlines that have leased aircraft from Hong Kong Airlines have made things worse as they have fallen behind on their lease payments with their own financial problems.

November is traditionally a quiet time of year, and other recent events have put further pressure on loads.

His comment had nothing to do with HX or sensorship, just his joy at HKIA not doing well. How you can have any support for such a comment is rather shocking.

I wasn’t supporting the comment, I actually didn’t directly address that at all.

My comment was highlighting that people in mainland China source of information for external events is all controlled by the government, and I had empathy for their viewpoint as they just don’t know any better.

It would be far more constructive if members were to educate them so they can learn things their government prefers them not to know.

zeke wrote:

I wasn’t supporting the comment, I actually didn’t directly address that at all.

My comment was highlighting that people in mainland China source of information for external events is all controlled by the government, and I had empathy for their viewpoint as they just don’t know any better.

It would be far more constructive if members were to educate them so they can learn things their government prefers them not to know.

Getting off topic, but why do you think SQ32 is from mainland China instead of...well, Singapore? Singapore and Malaysia both have their fair shares of wumaos anyway.

I agree with your other post - HX had been in financial trouble for a long, long time. The secrecy of HNA Group dealing doesn’t help - quite frankly nobody knows where the money is, how they are being used, and whether they even have money.

zakuivcustom wrote:

zeke wrote:

I wasn’t supporting the comment, I actually didn’t directly address that at all.

My comment was highlighting that people in mainland China source of information for external events is all controlled by the government, and I had empathy for their viewpoint as they just don’t know any better.

It would be far more constructive if members were to educate them so they can learn things their government prefers them not to know.

Getting off topic, but why do you think SQ32 is from mainland China instead of...well, Singapore? Singapore and Malaysia both have their fair shares of wumaos anyway.

I agree with your other post - HX had been in financial trouble for a long, long time. The secrecy of HNA Group dealing doesn’t help - quite frankly nobody knows where the money is, how they are being used, and whether they even have money.

If you saw one of the comment he made in the YVR thread commenting about the political relationship between Canada and China before it got removed by mod, then you'll know...

Anyways, back on topic. Flight to YVR are still bookable from mid-Jan to the announced end date of Feb 10.

It's no longer just a rumor, Hong Kong Airlines (HX) has announced the following:
- Terminating HKG-YVR, effective 20th Feb 2020
- Terminating HKG-SGN, effective 20th Feb 2020
- Terminating HKG-TSN (Tianjin), effective 20th Feb 2020
- Returning all 359 to leaser, with the exception of 2 frame
- Delay Salary payment for all staffs, with the exception of Pilots & FA

Rumor:

- IFE will be cancelled.

Source:
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hon ... -licensing

zakuivcustom wrote:

zeke wrote:

I wasn’t supporting the comment, I actually didn’t directly address that at all.

My comment was highlighting that people in mainland China source of information for external events is all controlled by the government, and I had empathy for their viewpoint as they just don’t know any better.

It would be far more constructive if members were to educate them so they can learn things their government prefers them not to know.

Getting off topic, but why do you think SQ32 is from mainland China instead of...well, Singapore? Singapore and Malaysia both have their fair shares of wumaos anyway.

I agree with your other post - HX had been in financial trouble for a long, long time. The secrecy of HNA Group dealing doesn’t help - quite frankly nobody knows where the money is, how they are being used, and whether they even have money.

If HNA has money, they wouldn't be stiffing lessors, suppliers, and financiers for their working capital. They also wouldn't be desperately trying to sell everything that hasn't been bolted down. Thank god that HX lasted until October for my flight.

Would be an interesting case to see which airlines will be ready to take these leased A350s on short notice.

J343 wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

J343 wrote:

Perfect opportunity for CX to grab the slots. But wait... look at the situation in HK, oh no!

Kidding.

Perhaps this will be an opportunity for CX to expand.

HKG is allowing carriers to retain slots even if they’re not using them.

That is interesting to know. Thank you! I wonder what happened to NZ and QF's HKG-LHR slots?

Just a temporary measure for the current situation, i.e. effective for the winter season for now, if the HKSAR/Beijing gov can handle it by Christmas or Chinese New Year.

Sadly, the Hong Kong branding that was likely seen as a positive upon the airline's founding may have become a huge liability today. Hong Kong's ongoing O&D issues aside, I would not be surprised if even transit passengers would rather fly through, say, ICN rather than HKG these days...

I redeemed a Dec 14 business seat from YVR to HKG. All seats have been blocked for days. I noticed this days ago, and called on HX agent. He told me that HX's not about to cut my flight. Flight without any seat on sell does not mean the flight would be cancelled. He didn't tell me the reason to block those seats, but he said those seats will be released 10 days before departure. If my flight gets cancelled, he promised that they can re-issue me a new ticket operated by another carrier.

When I made that phone call, all YVR-HKG seats after Dec.1 were blocked. I monitored the availability of Y seats for flights between Dec.1 and my departure date, and did see they reopened seats around 10 days before departure. So, we can not conclude that HX will cut the route in early December. Hopefully, they can send me back to HKG before totally erasing the route.

SurfandSnow wrote:

Sadly, the Hong Kong branding that was likely seen as a positive upon the airline's founding may have become a huge liability today. Hong Kong's ongoing O&D issues aside, I would not be surprised if even transit passengers would rather fly through, say, ICN rather than HKG these days...

Actually Cathay is using transit passengers to fill their plane. It is reported that the volume of transit passengers is increased.

https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%e7%b6%93% ... d%e5%8b%99 (Chinese link)
Official announcement: IFE on HX planes will be suspended from December 1st until further announcement

I do not understand why HX should take all the suffering when it is mostly business as usual for the HNA Group’s Mainland Chinese carriers other than HU, such as Tianjin Airlines, Beijing Capital Airlines and Suparna Airlines, barring the deferred deliveries.

zeke wrote:

itisi wrote:

SQ32 wrote:

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

What a truly sad person. Don't worry, HKIA will be back.

I am sympathetic to SQ32 viewpoint as I think it is a result of censoring of news in mainland China. I think what we are seeing with Hong Kong Airlines is actually fairly representative of the true business situation within mainland China airlines. All of the mainland Chinese airlines have had a horrible year, we discussed it recently the massive loss of 3.1 billion on international routes alone viewtopic.php?t=1434035

Hong Kong Airlines has in my view been unfairly encumbered as the major shareholder the HNA group took cash out of the airline to try and fill problems elsewhere in the conglomerate. We have seen the HNA group have massive asset sales and even miss on bonds maturing. Numerous HNA group aircraft have not been picked up as they do not have the funds to pay for them. Hong Kong Airlines A350s have also been flown to France to put into storage. I have also heard that mainland Chinese airlines that have leased aircraft from Hong Kong Airlines have made things worse as they have fallen behind on their lease payments with their own financial problems.

November is traditionally a quiet time of year, and other recent events have put further pressure on loads.

Lossing money on international routes is not a big deal. all CHINA3 make remarkable profits in recent years.
UA (somewhere I have forgotten) and AA (in Asia) both losing money in certain markets, does it means they had a horrible year too?

VTCIE wrote:

I do not understand why HX should take all the suffering when it is mostly business as usual for the HNA Group’s Mainland Chinese carriers other than HU, such as Tianjin Airlines, Beijing Capital Airlines and Suparna Airlines, barring the deferred deliveries.

HX borrowed huge amount of money (bearing the huge interest expenses) then the funds went to HU in the past few years.
The regional operation itself (before the recent month's protest) was profitable.

c933103 wrote:

https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%e7%b6%93%e6%bf%9f/article/20191130/s00002/1575114482381/%e6%b8%af%e8%88%aa%e5%81%9c%e6%ad%a2%e6%8f%90%e4%be%9b%e6%a9%9f%e4%b8%8a%e5%a8%9b%e6%a8%82%e7%b3%bb%e7%b5%b1%e6%9c%8d%e5%8b%99 (Chinese link)
Official announcement: IFE on HX planes will be suspended from December 1st until further announcement

Get the impression from that article that the IFE content is leased month to month.

This is an aviation forum. Please take any political theories to non-aviation. This is your warning.

If the one poster flies through HKG often, I could understand why he would want it to drop out of the Top 10. The busier an airport is, the harder it is to get around. Think of LAX or LHR. My local airport is DTW and unlike another frequent poster, I like it just the way it is. With the current level of flights, it's a joy to get around. It never feels busy, yet you can get just about anywhere nonstop or with only one connection. Add 20% more passengers and it would be a madhouse.

SQ32 wrote:

This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

I am guessing from your previous posts and this one, either you are a propaganda agent for mainland China who makes a pathetic excuse for Joseph Goebbels or you are sadistic person who enjoys the misery of others and a false sense of grandeur who uses the royal “we”.

I think you and your adversaries in Russia should go somewhere else where aviation and politics can be readily discussed. The closest thing I am willing to stand is the A vs B and I hate all the Iranian aviation related sanctions.

Back to aviation, since there is a month till the New Years, I hope the Hong Kong airport is still the in the top 10 list for the busiest airport. And for next year the airport to be in the top 3 in the world and Hong Kong being peaceful and a shining light of democracy for the rest of China (since you started it).

Wish you all a merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah and happy new year.

lightsaber wrote:

This is an aviation forum. Please take any political theories to non-aviation. This is your warning.

Could you provide an alternative narrative which does not involve politics which would explain the large reduction in traffic though Hong Kong that is impacting all airlines ?

If you cannot provide an alternative narrative, your intimidation is preventing the topic being discussed.

Obviously the cause for this slump in demand will impact the companies with the greatest exposure like Hong Kong Airlines.

hongkongflyer wrote:

VTCIE wrote:

I do not understand why HX should take all the suffering when it is mostly business as usual for the HNA Group’s Mainland Chinese carriers other than HU, such as Tianjin Airlines, Beijing Capital Airlines and Suparna Airlines, barring the deferred deliveries.

HX borrowed huge amount of money (bearing the huge interest expenses) then the funds went to HU in the past few years.
The regional operation itself (before the recent month's protest) was profitable.

Wouldn’t comment too much about HNA’s money flow itself. IIRC HNA did ask for money back from HX, though, back around early 2019.

But quite frankly, HX itself got this large only bc it has those borrowed money of HNA to fund those new planes and is able to capture market shares via dumping fares on regional routes (which I don’t mind as a customer). It was never sustainable, though, and I just can’t see how HX can climb out of the hole, especially with the current demand going way down. HX also relied quite heavily in mainland market, unlike its former sister carrier UO which is focus on HKer outbound traffic.

zakuivcustom wrote:

[
But quite frankly, HX itself got this large only bc it has those borrowed money of HNA to fund those new planes and is able to capture market shares via dumping fares on regional routes (which I don’t mind as a customer).

I don’t think a lot of HX operated aircraft were owned.

My understanding is they made a nice revenue stream by purchasing aircraft in Hing Kong and then leasing them to HNA group airlines in China bypassing the CAAC central buying allowing fir those airlines to grow faster. I think they even made a MOU for A380s to go to mainland China.

That was until those lease payments were made in time.

zeke wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

This is an aviation forum. Please take any political theories to non-aviation. This is your warning.

Could you provide an alternative narrative which does not involve politics which would explain the large reduction in traffic though Hong Kong that is impacting all airlines ?

If you cannot provide an alternative narrative, your intimidation is preventing the topic being discussed.

Obviously the cause for this slump in demand will impact the companies with the greatest exposure like Hong Kong Airlines.

Yes, the politics are impacting economy and demand. However, moderators are having to delete posts from one side or the other as they would demand a response.

Feel free to discuss the politics must in non-aviation, beyond that they are impacting all aviation demand in Hong Kong.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

zeke wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

This is an aviation forum. Please take any political theories to non-aviation. This is your warning.

Could you provide an alternative narrative which does not involve politics which would explain the large reduction in traffic though Hong Kong that is impacting all airlines ?

If you cannot provide an alternative narrative, your intimidation is preventing the topic being discussed.

Obviously the cause for this slump in demand will impact the companies with the greatest exposure like Hong Kong Airlines.

Yes, the politics are impacting economy and demand. However, moderators are having to delete posts from one side or the other as they would demand a response.

Feel free to discuss the politics must in non-aviation, beyond that they are impacting all aviation demand in Hong Kong.

Lightsaber

I apologize but the main purpose of my reply is that the protest is on it’s final stage and I bid the tourism demand will begin to recover rapidly.

zeke wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

[
But quite frankly, HX itself got this large only bc it has those borrowed money of HNA to fund those new planes and is able to capture market shares via dumping fares on regional routes (which I don’t mind as a customer).

I don’t think a lot of HX operated aircraft were owned.

My understanding is they made a nice revenue stream by purchasing aircraft in Hing Kong and then leasing them to HNA group airlines in China bypassing the CAAC central buying allowing fir those airlines to grow faster. I think they even made a MOU for A380s to go to mainland China.

That was until those lease payments were made in time.

Yes. The main reason HX faces difficulties is that they have to bear heavy interest payments. The fail in demand in the past few month hurts them, but won’t serious enough to kill them

hongkongflyer wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

zeke wrote:

Could you provide an alternative narrative which does not involve politics which would explain the large reduction in traffic though Hong Kong that is impacting all airlines ?

If you cannot provide an alternative narrative, your intimidation is preventing the topic being discussed.

Obviously the cause for this slump in demand will impact the companies with the greatest exposure like Hong Kong Airlines.

Yes, the politics are impacting economy and demand. However, moderators are having to delete posts from one side or the other as they would demand a response.

Feel free to discuss the politics must in non-aviation, beyond that they are impacting all aviation demand in Hong Kong.

Lightsaber

I apologize but the main purpose of my reply is that the protest is on it’s final stage and I bid the tourism demand will begin to recover rapidly.

Nothing have been done locally to end the current situation so I would say that's wishful thinking

c933103 wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Yes, the politics are impacting economy and demand. However, moderators are having to delete posts from one side or the other as they would demand a response.

Feel free to discuss the politics must in non-aviation, beyond that they are impacting all aviation demand in Hong Kong.

Lightsaber

I apologize but the main purpose of my reply is that the protest is on it’s final stage and I bid the tourism demand will begin to recover rapidly.

Nothing have been done locally to end the current situation so I would say that's wishful thinking

I second this sentiment. The local govt had been given plenty of chances to calm things down, but every single time they open their mouth, they just throw more fuel into fire.

hongkongflyer wrote:

zeke wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

[
But quite frankly, HX itself got this large only bc it has those borrowed money of HNA to fund those new planes and is able to capture market shares via dumping fares on regional routes (which I don’t mind as a customer).

I don’t think a lot of HX operated aircraft were owned.

My understanding is they made a nice revenue stream by purchasing aircraft in Hing Kong and then leasing them to HNA group airlines in China bypassing the CAAC central buying allowing fir those airlines to grow faster. I think they even made a MOU for A380s to go to mainland China.

That was until those lease payments were made in time.

Yes. The main reason HX faces difficulties is that they have to bear heavy interest payments. The fail in demand in the past few month hurts them, but won’t serious enough to kill them

IIRC they also had problem repaying bonds? And this was back around February.

c933103 wrote:

Nothing have been done locally to end the current situation so I would say that's wishful thinking

What is going on reminds me of the yellow shirt and red shirt issues in Thailand, they eventually resolved and traffic has bounced back to even higher levels.

If anything business I think will look to the recent events positively and it will further cement Hong Kong’s role as the interface to China built on legal fundamentals which means business predictability rather than working in an environment which is based upon policy.

But I don’t know if things will move fast enough to save HX. The ATLA has been looking at HX for some time, they had placed restrictions on new routes and new aircraft until they could stabilise internally.

Recent events I see more as a catalyst that spread up exposing fundamental internal structural issues with cash reserves and cash flow.

The numerous key AOC post holders that have been replaced would not be looked upon favourably by the HKCAD. They like to see stability in those positions for safety oversight.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-changes/

Some more details of cut:
HKG-SGN & HKG-TSN cancelled, as previously reported.
HKG-HAK went from 11 to 10 weekly.
HKG-ICN went from 12 to 4 weekly.

HKG-ICN is a HUGE capacity decrease. I guess they're further cutting the size of their 332 fleet? While HKG-ICN is a competitive route, I would assume that being a mostly HKG-outbound O&D route that HX would at least do somewhat decent.