reply1984
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:25 am

c933103 wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Yes, the politics are impacting economy and demand. However, moderators are having to delete posts from one side or the other as they would demand a response.

Feel free to discuss the politics must in non-aviation, beyond that they are impacting all aviation demand in Hong Kong.

Lightsaber


I apologize but the main purpose of my reply is that the protest is on it’s final stage and I bid the tourism demand will begin to recover rapidly.

Nothing have been done locally to end the current situation so I would say that's wishful thinking


IF the crisis can be handled appropriately, the traffic can rebound rapidly. But it is a big if, when we check Comrade Carrie Lam's track record. She played word game in June(Suspend or Withdraw), now she turns to 'Review' or 'Inquiry'. Maybe a few months later she will realize that she has to choose between 'Reorganize' vs 'Dismiss', or 'Fired' vs 'Resign'.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:35 am

News now is that the Air Transport Licensing Authority of Hong Kong is considering withdrawing HX's AOC citing rapidly deteriorating financial situation.

The ATLA's official announcement is here: https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201 ... fontSize=1

Michael
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:47 am

On the plus side HX can surpass CX as their boss said several years ago
PS: how about their subsidiaries like HACTL/AAT/SATS HK?
 
BR777
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:33 am

I guess we will have to think if the YVR - HKG route can sustain a 3rd carrier, regardless what the political situation is currently and it certainly doesn't help.

What is the competitive advantage for HX? I really don't see any substantial advantage over CX or AC, in hardware, software, or pricing. Feel free to give me insight here if anyone had flown them on this route.

Let's say. AC would have captured the *A members or passengers originating from other Canadian cities requiring a stop over through YVR.

CX has the frequency (up to 3x a day), and provide strong connection to anywhere south or west of HK with good timing to match.

HX? They have flights connecting to mainland China, but anyone wanting to go to a Chinese city would have gone with MU / CA / CZ and others with multiple options each day.

On top, if HKG is the final destination, there are still lots of stop-over choices to suit different price or service levels.

Most of my flights are TPAC and really, I can't see a reason why I want to pick HX...
 
alyusuph
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:20 am

SQ32 wrote:
This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.


Happy? I hope it is a linguistic oversight
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c933103
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:04 am

eamondzhang wrote:
News now is that the Air Transport Licensing Authority of Hong Kong is considering withdrawing HX's AOC citing rapidly deteriorating financial situation.

The ATLA's official announcement is here: https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201 ... fontSize=1

Michael

So their license will be revoked if they cannot get cash injection or improve their cash flow by the end of the week
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:15 am

c933103 wrote:
So their license will be revoked if they cannot get cash injection or improve their cash flow by the end of the week


That is what the press release is suggesting

“ If HKA fails to improve its financial situation as required by ATLA by the deadline, ATLA will take further action under Regulation 15E of the Regulations, which provides for revocation or suspension of licence. ATLA would announce its decision by December 7, 2019. ”

I hope they are successful in meeting the requirements by the 7th. There are a lot of families looking to a very uncertain Christmas.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... ve-company
Last edited by zeke on Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
reply1984
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:20 am

BR777 wrote:
I guess we will have to think if the YVR - HKG route can sustain a 3rd carrier, regardless what the political situation is currently and it certainly doesn't help.

What is the competitive advantage for HX? I really don't see any substantial advantage over CX or AC, in hardware, software, or pricing. Feel free to give me insight here if anyone had flown them on this route.

Let's say. AC would have captured the *A members or passengers originating from other Canadian cities requiring a stop over through YVR.

CX has the frequency (up to 3x a day), and provide strong connection to anywhere south or west of HK with good timing to match.

HX? They have flights connecting to mainland China, but anyone wanting to go to a Chinese city would have gone with MU / CA / CZ and others with multiple options each day.

On top, if HKG is the final destination, there are still lots of stop-over choices to suit different price or service levels.

Most of my flights are TPAC and really, I can't see a reason why I want to pick HX...


So congrats, you get the reason why HX will collapse:)
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:27 pm

BR777 wrote:
I guess we will have to think if the YVR - HKG route can sustain a 3rd carrier, regardless what the political situation is currently and it certainly doesn't help.

What is the competitive advantage for HX? I really don't see any substantial advantage over CX or AC, in hardware, software, or pricing. Feel free to give me insight here if anyone had flown them on this route.

Let's say. AC would have captured the *A members or passengers originating from other Canadian cities requiring a stop over through YVR.

CX has the frequency (up to 3x a day), and provide strong connection to anywhere south or west of HK with good timing to match.

HX? They have flights connecting to mainland China, but anyone wanting to go to a Chinese city would have gone with MU / CA / CZ and others with multiple options each day.

On top, if HKG is the final destination, there are still lots of stop-over choices to suit different price or service levels.

Most of my flights are TPAC and really, I can't see a reason why I want to pick HX...


Just an additional note - CX and AC also codeshare with each other, with AC feeding some of CX’s SE Asia flights and CX feeding AC’s domestic flights in Canada.

As for HX in YVR-HKG in general - all HX did was come into the market dumping a bunch of cheap tickets. They don’t really have the scale elsewhere to “cover” those tickets that they are probably selling at a loss, though, unlike for example CX.

Back on topic - I guess HX not being able to pay their employees is the last straw for ALPA. Basically they either need a white knight, somebody else to purchase them (but who?), or else it is pretty much game over. Even if HX survives this round, I failed to see them not going into crisis mode again in a few months.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
juliuswong
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:15 pm

zeke wrote:
c933103 wrote:
So their license will be revoked if they cannot get cash injection or improve their cash flow by the end of the week


That is what the press release is suggesting

“ If HKA fails to improve its financial situation as required by ATLA by the deadline, ATLA will take further action under Regulation 15E of the Regulations, which provides for revocation or suspension of licence. ATLA would announce its decision by December 7, 2019. ”

I hope they are successful in meeting the requirements by the 7th. There are a lot of families looking to a very uncertain Christmas.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... ve-company

And also Lunar New Year....... The biggest annual event for the Chinese ethnicity.

With ATLA in the play, things will get south very fast. Really not a good time to lost jobs. Prayers with their staff and customers.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
tphuang
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:41 pm

zeke wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Nothing have been done locally to end the current situation so I would say that's wishful thinking


What is going on reminds me of the yellow shirt and red shirt issues in Thailand, they eventually resolved and traffic has bounced back to even higher levels.

If anything business I think will look to the recent events positively and it will further cement Hong Kong’s role as the interface to China built on legal fundamentals which means business predictability rather than working in an environment which is based upon policy.

But I don’t know if things will move fast enough to save HX. The ATLA has been looking at HX for some time, they had placed restrictions on new routes and new aircraft until they could stabilise internally.

Recent events I see more as a catalyst that spread up exposing fundamental internal structural issues with cash reserves and cash flow.

The numerous key AOC post holders that have been replaced would not be looked upon favourably by the HKCAD. They like to see stability in those positions for safety oversight.

Western firms that have already started to think about their place in HK are more likely than ever to bolt. If western businesses can't be convinced that Beijing will let HK rule itself, they will either move their APAC office to Singapore/Tokyo (to get away from CCP) or to Shanghai if they are comfortable with that environment. Singapore is the greatest beneficary of this. Especially now with direct flight between NYC/SFO/LAX with Singapore, SIN is only slightly further away than HK for most Western businesses. The reduction in demand to HKG is real and likely to continue for a while.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:35 pm

tphuang wrote:
Western firms that have already started to think about their place in HK are more likely than ever to bolt. If western businesses can't be convinced that Beijing will let HK rule itself, they will either move their APAC office to Singapore/Tokyo (to get away from CCP) or to Shanghai if they are comfortable with that environment. Singapore is the greatest beneficary of this. Especially now with direct flight between NYC/SFO/LAX with Singapore, SIN is only slightly further away than HK for most Western businesses. The reduction in demand to HKG is real and likely to continue for a while.


Where the business traffic shift doesn't really matter that much for HX, though. It's not like they were capturing tons of premium business traffic to begin with.

juliuswong wrote:
And also Lunar New Year....... The biggest annual event for the Chinese ethnicity.

With ATLA in the play, things will get south very fast. Really not a good time to lost jobs. Prayers with their staff and customers.


I do wish HX's staff good luck. As much as people on social media in HK almost jumping for joy for the possibility of HX going down (Between it being a "fake" HK airline controlled by mainland company aka HNA Group, to getting the "kiss of death" by Jackie Chan, just to name a few), there are definitely real people possibly getting affected, with some being affected already as I'm typing due to delayed pay.

On the flip side, it's almost a miracle that HX survived this long. They were rumored to go out of business as early as February/March this year. It's also telling that when CX is looking into buying HX/UO, they only take UO but not HX.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:47 pm

https://hk.finance.appledaily.com/finan ... 2/60332837

(Chinese only...and I believe it's behind a paywall)

According to Apple Daily, seems like HNA Group is applying for a 3-year loan of RMB 4 billion (~HKD 4.4 billion, or ~570M USD) from China Development Bank along with 7 other banks in mainland China for HNA Holdings along with "its subsidiaries" (which include HX) to be used to cover "fuel expenses, aircraft expenses, salaries, landing/takeoff fees, and aircraft loan expenses, etc".

Perhaps HNA Group can still find some borrowed money to bail HX out, but even then, it's still on a VERY borrowed time.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
c933103
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:07 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
https://hk.finance.appledaily.com/finance/realtime/article/20191202/60332837

(Chinese only...and I believe it's behind a paywall)

According to Apple Daily, seems like HNA Group is applying for a 3-year loan of RMB 4 billion (~HKD 4.4 billion, or ~570M USD) from China Development Bank along with 7 other banks in mainland China for HNA Holdings along with "its subsidiaries" (which include HX) to be used to cover "fuel expenses, aircraft expenses, salaries, landing/takeoff fees, and aircraft loan expenses, etc".

Perhaps HNA Group can still find some borrowed money to bail HX out, but even then, it's still on a VERY borrowed time.

Didn't HNA transferred HX ownership to someone else already as part of the process to fix their own problems? It seems more likely to me that those money are for their other subsidiary in mainland.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:21 pm

c933103 wrote:
Didn't HNA transferred HX ownership to someone else already as part of the process to fix their own problems? It seems more likely to me that those money are for their other subsidiary in mainland.


I seem to recall all except for around 20% of HX was sold to a Singaporean company last year. HNA as far as I am aware is a minority shareholder. The biggest link between HNA and HX I thought was for aircraft leasing, what I was told, and I don’t have a source to back this up was HNA used HX to bypass the central CAAC aircraft purchasing and would purchase aircraft via HKG and lease them to mainland HNA group carriers. That’s the story I was told behind HX ordering A380s.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:45 pm

zeke wrote:
I seem to recall all except for around 20% of HX was sold to a Singaporean company last year. HNA as far as I am aware is a minority shareholder. The biggest link between HNA and HX I thought was for aircraft leasing, what I was told, and I don’t have a source to back this up was HNA used HX to bypass the central CAAC aircraft purchasing and would purchase aircraft via HKG and lease them to mainland HNA group carriers. That’s the story I was told behind HX ordering A380s.


Singapore (i.e. Temasek) never bought anything in HX IIRC. HNA (or HNA Holdings Hong Kong) do indeed no longer hold any shares in HX directly or even indirectly, although many of the current shareholders of HX (i.e. people like Zhong Guosong) were from HNA Group. On the flip side, HNA Group did sued Zhong Guosong for money back in April (that was settled around June/July)...

Frontier Investment Group L.P. (controlled by Zhong Guosong IIRC) is the largest shareholder currently.

As for the leasing A380 part - that was years back AFAIK. The current situation is more or less created b/c HNA Groups themselves ran out of (borrowed) money and can no longer "open the big faucet" (I don't know what's the English equivalent of the phrase...), and even worse, start asking for money that they borrowed to HX back b/c HNA themselves need the cash.

The bottom line for me? With even the ownership being a mess, why would one be surprised that HX is on the verge of being shutdown?
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:32 pm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... -airlines/

Essentially the same thing I posted earlier with more details and well, in English.

Maybe HX (HNA Group Airline in general) will become the new AI or AZ :duck:
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
TC957
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:29 am

Looks the end of HX could come in 5 days if sufficient funds are not sourced by then :
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/tra ... ve-company
 
c933103
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:33 am

Apparently HX could also apply for a temporary license after their license get revoked
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:21 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
zeke wrote:
I seem to recall all except for around 20% of HX was sold to a Singaporean company last year. HNA as far as I am aware is a minority shareholder. The biggest link between HNA and HX I thought was for aircraft leasing, what I was told, and I don’t have a source to back this up was HNA used HX to bypass the central CAAC aircraft purchasing and would purchase aircraft via HKG and lease them to mainland HNA group carriers. That’s the story I was told behind HX ordering A380s.


Singapore (i.e. Temasek) never bought anything in HX IIRC. HNA (or HNA Holdings Hong Kong) do indeed no longer hold any shares in HX directly or even indirectly, although many of the current shareholders of HX (i.e. people like Zhong Guosong) were from HNA Group. On the flip side, HNA Group did sued Zhong Guosong for money back in April (that was settled around June/July)...

Frontier Investment Group L.P. (controlled by Zhong Guosong IIRC) is the largest shareholder currently.

As for the leasing A380 part - that was years back AFAIK. The current situation is more or less created b/c HNA Groups themselves ran out of (borrowed) money and can no longer "open the big faucet" (I don't know what's the English equivalent of the phrase...), and even worse, start asking for money that they borrowed to HX back b/c HNA themselves need the cash.

The bottom line for me? With even the ownership being a mess, why would one be surprised that HX is on the verge of being shutdown?


HNA still a shareholder of HX, just not the largest one
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:21 pm

c933103 wrote:
Apparently HX could also apply for a temporary license after their license get revoked


Even if that's the case, wouldn't that take quite a bit of time as any license application mean a fresh start? AFAIK the most "valuable" part of HX is more or less its AOC (i.e. if anyone really want to turn their billions into millions, they can just jump in instead of having to spend ~6 months to apply for a license)

Either way, seems like HX is getting a bailout. We'll see how long that will last, as ~570M USD is not a lot of money when it comes to aviation - they can easily burn through that in 3 months.
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c933103
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:55 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Apparently HX could also apply for a temporary license after their license get revoked


Even if that's the case, wouldn't that take quite a bit of time as any license application mean a fresh start? AFAIK the most "valuable" part of HX is more or less its AOC (i.e. if anyone really want to turn their billions into millions, they can just jump in instead of having to spend ~6 months to apply for a license)

Either way, seems like HX is getting a bailout. We'll see how long that will last, as ~570M USD is not a lot of money when it comes to aviation - they can easily burn through that in 3 months.

https://www.hk01.com/%E7%A4%BE%E6%9C%83 ... C%E7%85%A7
It is said that if there are enough capitals then they can apply for a temporary license within a month that could subject to various limits and that temporary license could also be up to 1 year long. From the wording, such process seems more like a tentative continuation instead of fresh start.
As for those funds gathered by HNA from Chinese national banks, according to random comments on certain Chinese aviation sites it seems like things aren't really well at HNA itself and their other Mainland Chinese airlines either, so at least some of these money will likely be spent on those airlines instead.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:38 pm

c933103 wrote:
https://www.hk01.com/%E7%A4%BE%E6%9C%83 ... C%E7%85%A7
It is said that if there are enough capitals then they can apply for a temporary license within a month that could subject to various limits and that temporary license could also be up to 1 year long. From the wording, such process seems more like a tentative continuation instead of fresh start.
As for those funds gathered by HNA from Chinese national banks, according to random comments on certain Chinese aviation sites it seems like things aren't really well at HNA itself and their other Mainland Chinese airlines either, so at least some of these money will likely be spent on those airlines instead.


Thanks for providing that article (as much as I don't like HK01, that is :)).

But yes, those ~570M USD are probably not all going to HX. Some of it will probably go there to solve the immediate crisis (i.e. not even being able to pay wages). Perhaps they'll try to keep the airline running until after Lunar New Year?
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:20 pm

(Chinese Only...)
https://news.now.com/home/local/player?newsId=372233
https://news.now.com/home/local/player?newsId=372205

Per multiple news report, HX has form a preliminary funding plan that would fulfill the regulatory requirement imposed by ATLA, and will backpay their employees on Thursday (12/5).

ATLA haven't received anything yet, though.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:36 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
(Chinese Only...)
https://news.now.com/home/local/player?newsId=372233
https://news.now.com/home/local/player?newsId=372205

Per multiple news report, HX has form a preliminary funding plan that would fulfill the regulatory requirement imposed by ATLA, and will backpay their employees on Thursday (12/5).

ATLA haven't received anything yet, though.


and even ATLA revoked their license, they can still apply for a temporary one, which will valid for less then 12 months
 
cedarjet
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:37 am

SQ32 wrote:
This year we will be happy to see HKIA drop out of 10 top busiest airport.

What a horrible post
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
c933103
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:47 am

https://inews.hket.com/article/2513693/ ... 5%E4%BC%B0 (Chinese)
ATLA said they have received preliminary response from HX and is now evaluating it
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
c933103
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Re: Rumor: Hong Kong Airlines to defer salary payment and cut their last North American flight to YVR

Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:52 pm

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/ ... 191207.htm (Chinese(
ATLA: HX nedd to submit further financial information. No further action for now.
Transportation department: HX need to.comply with ATLA requirement and improve its structural financial problem. When necessary, the authority might further force HX to further sink its operation scale
CAD: No further action for now
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China

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