Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
zeke
Topic Author
Posts: 15274
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:19 pm

With the latest release of the A350 TCDS dated Nov 27, 2019, the A350-1000 with 4xA+ exits now has a limit of 480 seats.

This is obviously looking at the 777-300 replacement market

reference https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... -11-27.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:20 pm

Do any airlines currently run twin-engines with capacity like that? (Outside of Japan’s domestic network)
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
codyul
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:53 pm

Air Canada 777-300 HD (high density) 450 passengers configuration
3 classes: business, premium economy and economy.
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
yulexpansion
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:13 pm

codyul wrote:
Air Canada 777-300 HD (high density) 450 passengers configuration
3 classes: business, premium economy and economy.


AF has a 468 seat 77W. Granted, it has 7-across angled-flat J product (2 rows). Interesting to note that AC & AF both deploy these beasts on YUL-CDG.
 
User avatar
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1556
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:33 pm

Better than the 460-seat A339 that Cebu is taking.
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 7160
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:38 pm

TheWorm123 wrote:
Do any airlines currently run twin-engines with capacity like that? (Outside of Japan’s domestic network)

5J's ordered A339Ns will have 460 seats in an all-Y configuration..... :crowded: .....

Image
https://mk0runwaygirl0t0gjwt.kinstacdn. ... acific.jpg
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2238
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:38 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Better than the 460-seat A339 that Cebu is taking.


oh wow :crazy:
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:55 pm

I definitely see JL ordering some for domestic use to replace their B773(A) frames, in addition to their A35K frames to replace the B77Ws:
 
JustSomeDood
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:05 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:14 pm

Sounds like an AirAsia X plane to me tbh. If they want to convert that massive 70+ A330neo order to some other models, the A35K is big enough that it's possible to get close to the 480-seat figure with 10-abreast while still having some flat-beds up front (their A330neos/ceos have 12 J). AAX have been talking about flying to North America for a while, and a A35K would provide plenty of range out of NRT, even opening the door for possible non-stops in these high-density configurations.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20563
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:24 pm

Devilfish wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:
Do any airlines currently run twin-engines with capacity like that? (Outside of Japan’s domestic network)

5J's ordered A339Ns will have 460 seats in an all-Y configuration..... :crowded: .....

Image
https://mk0runwaygirl0t0gjwt.kinstacdn. ... acific.jpg

I could see a variation of the A339 in Japan.

This 480 is the limit. This allows configurations in slightly higher density than before.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
raylee67
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:38 pm

CX 773 regional config has 438 seats. And some of them are pretty old already given CX is the launch customer of RR-powered 773.

But CX will probably hold back on making any new orders with the current business environment.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4682
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:44 pm

French Bee is putting 488 seats in theirs and Air France was talking about their own 480 seat A350-1000 plans recently (along with 440 seat -900s).
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:22 pm

So it now has a higher exit limit than the 777X.
 
patrickjp93
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:35 pm

Slug71 wrote:
So it now has a higher exit limit than the 777X.

Not really worth mentioning since Boeing can easily put on as many doors as the 777-300ER was certified for, but next to no one is going to even think of flying that many people. You COULD shove 624 seats into the 777-9 in an all-Y config at 79cm of seat pitch (using the scaling of Air Canada as reference with 3 additional rows). That said, the only routes where you're getting that kind of economy load in one flight would be London/New York/LAX/Frankfurt to Dubai or Singapore. Boeing's not going to put in that kind of certification effort for additional seats unless the ME3 pay for it or Boeing gets more orders.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4939
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:45 pm

VSMUT wrote:
French Bee is putting 488 seats in theirs and Air France was talking about their own 480 seat A350-1000 plans recently (along with 440 seat -900s).


So the maximum capacity has to be raised by a further 8?
 
User avatar
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1556
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:15 pm

JustSomeDood wrote:
Sounds like an AirAsia X plane to me tbh. If they want to convert that massive 70+ A330neo order to some other models, the A35K is big enough that it's possible to get close to the 480-seat figure with 10-abreast while still having some flat-beds up front (their A330neos/ceos have 12 J). AAX have been talking about flying to North America for a while, and a A35K would provide plenty of range out of NRT, even opening the door for possible non-stops in these high-density configurations.


Has Air Asia X got around to cancelling it's 10 A350 orders yet?
 
RvA
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:59 pm

Doesn’t JL use a 773 with a 500 seat layout?
 
ODwyerPW
Posts: 1624
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:30 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:11 pm

777X is limited to 475pax. Interesting, what is it about the A350J that allowed 5 pax more?
learning never stops.
 
patrickjp93
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:19 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
777X is limited to 475pax. Interesting, what is it about the A350J that allowed 5 pax more?


Door types/sizes essentially. Bear in mind the 777-300ER actually has exit limit over 550, so the 777X can easily eclipse 480, but Boeing's not going to put in the extra certification work if no one's going to be configuring their cabins near that capacity any time soon. There are only 20 or so 777-300ERs configured with 450+ seats in the entire world if I counted correctly, Air Canada having a handful of them.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:20 pm

RvA wrote:
Doesn’t JL use a 773 with a 500 seat layout?


NH does 514...while its ERs have 264 or 212 seats.
 
asr0dzjq
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:36 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:31 pm

Oh no, here we go again
R.I.P. Douglas Aircraft Company
Born 22 July 1921 | Died 23 May 2006
You will be missed, but your management will not.
 
GalebG4
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:08 am

We need to remember European densification of narrow body’s of a320’s from 154-162 to all economy 174-180 or 737 from 160 to 186, this means inevitable for wide body’s like 787 or a350. Also we need to take into consideration congested airports limited by slots or limited passenger numbers, so densified cabins with fuel efficient wide body’s makes a lot of sense.
 
Theseus
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:09 am

VSMUT wrote:
French Bee is putting 488 seats in theirs and Air France was talking about their own 480 seat A350-1000 plans recently (along with 440 seat -900s).


I am not aware of Air France having any A350-1000 on order, only the -900 variant.
New order or version swap ?
Is there a link for this ?
 
GalebG4
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:13 am

lightsaber wrote:
Devilfish wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:
Do any airlines currently run twin-engines with capacity like that? (Outside of Japan’s domestic network)

5J's ordered A339Ns will have 460 seats in an all-Y configuration..... :crowded: .....

Image
https://mk0runwaygirl0t0gjwt.kinstacdn. ... acific.jpg

I could see a variation of the A339 in Japan.

This 480 is the limit. This allows configurations in slightly higher density than before.

Lightsaber

AirAsia X is already flying a339 to Japan and CebuPacific a333 with 436 seats is also flying to NRT. Japan is as usually in front of the rest of the world.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7388
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:00 am

Let's hope Air Asia X has the decency to not put 480 people on an A350-1000. Just because it can be done sometimes cheap can be too cheap. How would Jetblue configure it ? If they ever did, Cheap Chiche. Will any airline ever do it, maybe, I am waiting for hoe JAL will configure their A350-1000 with First Class. The A350 is a marvelous long haul machine, hoping it stays that way.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4682
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:53 am

Theseus wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
French Bee is putting 488 seats in theirs and Air France was talking about their own 480 seat A350-1000 plans recently (along with 440 seat -900s).


I am not aware of Air France having any A350-1000 on order, only the -900 variant.
New order or version swap ?
Is there a link for this ?


Exactly. Weirdly specific information for a type they don't officially have orders for yet. They clearly have some sort of planning going on.
You will have to look in the AF-KLM investor day presentation threads.
 
User avatar
reidar76
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:39 am

I think this certification of A+ doors on the A350-1000 might also be related to a potential, future stretch of the aircraft. With A+ doors certified, the A350-1000 can be stretched without having to add another pair of exit doors. Adding another pair of exit doors often means that current doors would be less than optimally positioned. For example, extra over-wing exit doors wouldn't increase how many passengers that can be seated between current door 3 and 4 (aft cabin).

It is not the maximum of 480 passengers that is significant, but how many people that can be seated between door 2 and 3, and between door 3 and 4. This is especially important for a potential, future stretch of the A350-1000, but also to enable 10 abreast seating at a low pitch between door 3 and 4. It is between the latter doors the A350-1000 is significantly longer than the A350-900, not in the mid-section of the aircraft.
Last edited by reidar76 on Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:42 am

JAL has a 500 seat Boeing 777-300
Business 78 recliner seats
Economy 422 standard seats

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Japan ... 77-300.php
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13714
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:23 am

jfk777 wrote:
Let's hope Air Asia X has the decency to not put 480 people on an A350-1000. Just because it can be done sometimes cheap can be too cheap.


Its 12% more space/seat than a 436 seat A333 Cebu is flying around, so [email protected]" pitch or [email protected]"..... not that terrible.
But if you want to put even a small J class in you are either at 10AB or a 29" mixed with a few 28" rows in Y.
If Airbus did in deed manage to get a 10AB 17" seat into the bird Air Asia X could get that small J-section with a 77W Y-Class comfort. Bottom of the barrel scratching for a mainline airline, but comfy for low cost. With 25% less fuel burn. Not bad.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:52 am

PacoMartin wrote:
JAL has a 500 seat Boeing 777-300
Business 78 recliner seats
Economy 422 standard seats

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Japan ... 77-300.php

And they have some A350-1000 on order. :scratchchin:
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4386
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:55 am

What's the maximum seating capacity at nine abreast?
First to fly the 787-9
 
AntonioMartin
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:29 am

Gonna be a long aircraft!!
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:46 am

zkojq wrote:
What's the maximum seating capacity at nine abreast?


One can easily get 480 Y seats into the A350-1000 at 9-abreast with 32-inch pitch. At 10-abreast with 32-inch pitch, ~514 seats are very possible. Of course, the exit limits will not allow (thankfully).

An airline can even do +-438 seats with 15 Swiss-style staggered 5-abreast J seats and +-423 9-abreast Y at 32-inch pitch. Around 470 seats are possible at 10-abreast.

The A350-1000 is remarkably space efficient.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10871
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:48 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
What's the maximum seating capacity at nine abreast?


One can easily get 480 Y seats into the A350-1000 at 9-abreast with 32-inch pitch. At 10-abreast with 32-inch pitch, ~514 seats are very possible. Of course, the exit limits will not allow (thankfully).

An airline can even do +-438 seats with 15 Swiss-style staggered 5-abreast J seats and +-423 9-abreast Y at 32-inch pitch. Around 470 seats are possible at 10-abreast.

The A350-1000 is remarkably space efficient.

It’s not that the A350-1000 is remarkably space efficient (not that it isn’t space efficient), it just has a lot of space. It’s a big aircraft. We are talking about an aircraft the same length as a 77W, just narrower (but still capable of 10Y).
 
ewt340
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:12 pm

A350-1000 in all economy class seats with 31"-32" seat pitch and 9-abreast configurations could carry 477 passengers without removing a single galleys or lavatories.
So even without the dreaded 10-abreast configurations, they have the space to carry tons of seats inside their cabin + all the amenities to serve all the passengers.

Reducing few of the lavatories and galleys could increase the seat counts to 500 seats.
I believe this certification and modification are long overdue.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8495
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:00 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
We need to remember European densification of narrow body’s of a320’s from 154-162 to all economy 174-180 or 737 from 160 to 186, this means inevitable for wide body’s like 787 or a350.


Why is it inevitable? Intra-Europe narrowbodies are, almost by definition (due to common route length) short-haul. European carrier widebodies are not.

A for slot constraints holding down capacity, in Europe everywhere but LHR and LGW there's plenty of room for upgauging. I'll also reference the practice of rationing by price (where people who don't want to pay don't fly) instead of rationing seat pitch (and cramming more people onto the plane).
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10871
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:11 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
We need to remember European densification of narrow body’s of a320’s from 154-162 to all economy 174-180 or 737 from 160 to 186, this means inevitable for wide body’s like 787 or a350.


Why is it inevitable? Intra-Europe narrowbodies are, almost by definition (due to common route length) short-haul. European carrier widebodies are not.

A for slot constraints holding down capacity, in Europe everywhere but LHR and LGW there's plenty of room for upgauging. I'll also reference the practice of rationing by price (where people who don't want to pay don't fly) instead of rationing seat pitch (and cramming more people onto the plane).

People/companies are also willing to pay for space for long haul flights. That is why widebodies have large space inefficient (relative to economy) premium classes and narrow bodies dedicated to short haul do not.

In contrast to narrow bodies, widebodies actually use to be denser when F and J classes used smaller more space efficient seating. DC-10s and the like often had similar seat counts to today’s larger 772/A333s etc.
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:49 pm

Polot wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
What's the maximum seating capacity at nine abreast?


One can easily get 480 Y seats into the A350-1000 at 9-abreast with 32-inch pitch. At 10-abreast with 32-inch pitch, ~514 seats are very possible. Of course, the exit limits will not allow (thankfully).

An airline can even do +-438 seats with 15 Swiss-style staggered 5-abreast J seats and +-423 9-abreast Y at 32-inch pitch. Around 470 seats are possible at 10-abreast.

The A350-1000 is remarkably space efficient.

It’s not that the A350-1000 is remarkably space efficient (not that it isn’t space efficient), it just has a lot of space. It’s a big aircraft. We are talking about an aircraft the same length as a 77W, just narrower (but still capable of 10Y).


You make a valid point and are correct. It is a big aircraft!
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:58 pm

ewt340 wrote:
A350-1000 in all economy class seats with 31"-32" seat pitch and 9-abreast configurations could carry 477 passengers without removing a single galleys or lavatories.
So even without the dreaded 10-abreast configurations, they have the space to carry tons of seats inside their cabin + all the amenities to serve all the passengers.


:checkmark: absolutely

ewt340 wrote:
Reducing few of the lavatories and galleys could increase the seat counts to 500 seats.
I believe this certification and modification are long overdue.


Personally, I don't think this will be necessary for now. The only airlines who will ever really potentially need that number of seats are ANA and JAL.

If and when ANA and JAL are ready to order an aircraft to replace their ultra-dense 773, then maybe Airbus can go through the trouble of certifying the A350-1000 for that density. Until then, no need to spend money (even if it won't be much) with no return.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
GalebG4
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:07 pm

Polot wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
We need to remember European densification of narrow body’s of a320’s from 154-162 to all economy 174-180 or 737 from 160 to 186, this means inevitable for wide body’s like 787 or a350.


Why is it inevitable? Intra-Europe narrowbodies are, almost by definition (due to common route length) short-haul. European carrier widebodies are not.

A for slot constraints holding down capacity, in Europe everywhere but LHR and LGW there's plenty of room for upgauging. I'll also reference the practice of rationing by price (where people who don't want to pay don't fly) instead of rationing seat pitch (and cramming more people onto the plane).

People/companies are also willing to pay for space for long haul flights. That is why widebodies have large space inefficient (relative to economy) premium classes and narrow bodies dedicated to short haul do not.

In contrast to narrow bodies, widebodies actually use to be denser when F and J classes used smaller more space efficient seating. DC-10s and the like often had similar seat counts to today’s larger 772/A333s etc.

When it comes to seat comfort, on this forum it is all about human perception. Seat technology has changed a lot last 20 years but unfortunately human nature for complaining has not.
 
DCA350
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:17 pm

Smart by Airbus.. most A350Ks won't be anywhere near this but still some important orders coming on the horizon. Cathay, already a big A350 customer could be interested, additionally as aforementioned JAL. AF still hasn't decided what will replace it's 777Ws which are some of the oldest flying. A mix of high density and premium configured A350Ks would fit the bill.
 
Theseus
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:58 am

VSMUT wrote:
Theseus wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
French Bee is putting 488 seats in theirs and Air France was talking about their own 480 seat A350-1000 plans recently (along with 440 seat -900s).


I am not aware of Air France having any A350-1000 on order, only the -900 variant.
New order or version swap ?
Is there a link for this ?


Exactly. Weirdly specific information for a type they don't officially have orders for yet. They clearly have some sort of planning going on.
You will have to look in the AF-KLM investor day presentation threads.


Thanks. I think the presentation you are referring to is:
https://www.airfranceklm.com/sites/default/files/air_france-klm_investor_day_2019.pdf

On page 26, I see Air France mentioning long-haul, low-cost competition using A350-900 with 411 seats, and that a future A350-1000 configuration would be 480 seats. They also compare their current B777-300ER with 468 seats and possible 472 seats configuration to come shortly, but my reading is that this would be a reconfiguration of B777-300ER. I see no mention at all of Air France ordering A350-1000.

As mentioned somewhere else in the thread, I agree that a mix of high density A350-1000 for the Carribean lines and of lower density ones for the main long haul routes would work very well for them, but we still have to wait to see if it happens.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10871
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:13 am

Theseus wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Theseus wrote:

I am not aware of Air France having any A350-1000 on order, only the -900 variant.
New order or version swap ?
Is there a link for this ?


Exactly. Weirdly specific information for a type they don't officially have orders for yet. They clearly have some sort of planning going on.
You will have to look in the AF-KLM investor day presentation threads.


Thanks. I think the presentation you are referring to is:
https://www.airfranceklm.com/sites/default/files/air_france-klm_investor_day_2019.pdf

On page 26, I see Air France mentioning long-haul, low-cost competition using A350-900 with 411 seats, and that a future A350-1000 configuration would be 480 seats. They also compare their current B777-300ER with 468 seats and possible 472 seats configuration to come shortly, but my reading is that this would be a reconfiguration of B777-300ER. I see no mention at all of Air France ordering A350-1000.

As mentioned somewhere else in the thread, I agree that a mix of high density A350-1000 for the Carribean lines and of lower density ones for the main long haul routes would work very well for them, but we still have to wait to see if it happens.


Yes the “long-haul, low-cost, competition” they are referring to is FrenchBee. Their A359s seat 411, and future A35Ks seat ~480. It is not a coincidence that Air France choose those seat counts. In fact take a look at FrenchBee’s A359 seat map on Seatguru. You will see Air France lovingly borrowed it for their presentation, bad/potentially bad seats colored and all ;)

AF is not saying they are planning on buying A350-1000s or more A359s and configuring them with those seat counts. Rather they are saying they will use their dense 77Ws to compete. Higher fuel burn, but AF’s 77Ws are much cheaper to own than brand new A350s.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:01 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
Do any airlines currently run twin-engines with capacity like that? (Outside of Japan’s domestic network)


AC does 458 seats on their 77Ws, on runs such as YVR-HKG.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5089
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:10 am

I remember some US Charter airlines flying 747-100's and -200's with 515- 525 seats on them so I'd guess anybody can make a case for that configuration.
 
JustSomeDood
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:05 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:28 am

MoKa777 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
A350-1000 in all economy class seats with 31"-32" seat pitch and 9-abreast configurations could carry 477 passengers without removing a single galleys or lavatories.
So even without the dreaded 10-abreast configurations, they have the space to carry tons of seats inside their cabin + all the amenities to serve all the passengers.


:checkmark: absolutely


They could do so of course, but it strikes me as a very stupid idea.

- Any hypothetical airline mad enough to consider an A35K with all Y is inevitably an LCC, i.e their pax don't think comfort is a big priority.
- It's possible to fill a similar amount of seats in a smaller, cheaper aircraft under all-Y configurations (Cebu's 460-seat A339s come to mind)
- Ergo, it'd be more effective to use either a smaller aircraft with all-Y configurations (10-abreast A359/787-10/9-abreast A339), or 10-abreast such an A35K and use the space left over for some more premium seats to get RASM up.
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:32 am

JustSomeDood wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
A350-1000 in all economy class seats with 31"-32" seat pitch and 9-abreast configurations could carry 477 passengers without removing a single galleys or lavatories.
So even without the dreaded 10-abreast configurations, they have the space to carry tons of seats inside their cabin + all the amenities to serve all the passengers.


:checkmark: absolutely


They could do so of course, but it strikes me as a very stupid idea.

- Any hypothetical airline mad enough to consider an A35K with all Y is inevitably an LCC, i.e their pax don't think comfort is a big priority.
- It's possible to fill a similar amount of seats in a smaller, cheaper aircraft under all-Y configurations (Cebu's 460-seat A339s come to mind)
- Ergo, it'd be more effective to use either a smaller aircraft with all-Y configurations (10-abreast A359/787-10/9-abreast A339), or 10-abreast such an A35K and use the space left over for some more premium seats to get RASM up.


We're not saying it's a good or bad idea, just saying what's possible and how.

Of course, when it comes to single class Y, it's hard to beat the value proposition of an A333ceo/A333neo.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:59 am

anrec80 wrote:
AC does 458 seats on their 77Ws, on runs such as YVR-HKG.

There are two versions of the 77W at AC. 400 seats and 450 seats. The only difference is the size of the J cabin. At 17 x 31 inches for both in Y, the passenger experience is the same.

J and W demand remains high on the route, but the intent was to meet competition from Hong Kong Airlines. Done. With Hong Kong Airlines’ announcement of pulling off the route, I wouldn’t be surprised to see something with larger premium cabins come back.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
T4thH
Posts: 1102
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:58 am

Only 480 PAX. So Cebu Pacific will not order them, too low number of PAX. This is still a low dense configuration. Cebu only orders sardines...sorry..."PAX packed like sardines in a tin can" configuration.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: A350-1000 certified to 480 seats

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:16 am

JustSomeDood wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
A350-1000 in all economy class seats with 31"-32" seat pitch and 9-abreast configurations could carry 477 passengers without removing a single galleys or lavatories.
So even without the dreaded 10-abreast configurations, they have the space to carry tons of seats inside their cabin + all the amenities to serve all the passengers.


:checkmark: absolutely


They could do so of course, but it strikes me as a very stupid idea.

- Any hypothetical airline mad enough to consider an A35K with all Y is inevitably an LCC, i.e their pax don't think comfort is a big priority.
- It's possible to fill a similar amount of seats in a smaller, cheaper aircraft under all-Y configurations (Cebu's 460-seat A339s come to mind)
- Ergo, it'd be more effective to use either a smaller aircraft with all-Y configurations (10-abreast A359/787-10/9-abreast A339), or 10-abreast such an A35K and use the space left over for some more premium seats to get RASM up.


This type of certifications are less to do with LCC and more to do with airlines who wanted to fill the aircraft with more than just 440 seats.

Few of the airlines that potentially could use this configurations would be:
- JAL and ANA domestic with around 500 seats.
- Air France B777-300ER caribbean configuration with 468 seats.
- Air Canada B777-300ER with 450 seats.

Other airlines have some of their B777-300ER fitted with more than 400 seats (and less than 440). Which could be potentially be fitted with more seats if they need to.
Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Turkish, Saudia, Biman Bangladesh.

Also, this would just be the same as B777-9. Some airlines fitted it with 8 doors or 10 doors, depending on how tight the regulations in their country or how much seats they put in the cabin.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos