In the Dubai Air Show this year, (DAS2019), Emirates had ordered several Airbus and Boeing airplanes. They had updates on their A350XWB, A330neo and B787 orders but the 777x was not talked about. With the A380 productions ceasing in 2021, Emirates is desperate in finding a new replacement to the jumbo jet. The 777x is a great replacement and posses certain cool features to rival the A350XWB but with problems with the aircraft and the first flight delayed for the jetliner, it is uncertain whether Boeing will deliver on time the 777x. If this situation persists, it might see several airliners like Emirates dropping or adjusting their orders for the 777x.

Your sources for EK to dropping or adjusting their orders for the 777-X?

Source please.

Is this a rumour, speculation or is there a source for this?

Emirates did adjust there order and said that if delays are significant more adjustments might happen. This is not new news and was talked about already.

SQ789 wrote:

Source please.

https://www.reuters.com/article/emirate ... SD5N1Y301O

Emirates reduces 777X order by 24 frames and cancels the last 6 777-300ER.

Orders 30 787-9.

Is this not already reported during the airshow?

mjoelnir wrote:

SQ789 wrote:

Source please.

https://www.reuters.com/article/emirate ... SD5N1Y301O

Emirates reduces 777X order by 24 frames and cancels the last 6 777-300ER.

Orders 30 787-9.

"Orders 30 787-9". That's true.
"Reduces 777X order by 24 frames". That's true also. The original order was for 150 frames, now reduced to 126 frames.
But "cancels the last 6 777-300ERs ", that's not true because all the 77Ws that were on order have been delivered already. Emirates has no more 300ER on order. Only X variant as far as the 777 is concerned.

American 767 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

SQ789 wrote:

Source please.

https://www.reuters.com/article/emirate ... SD5N1Y301O

Emirates reduces 777X order by 24 frames and cancels the last 6 777-300ER.

Orders 30 787-9.

"Orders 30 787-9". That's true.
"Reduces 777X order by 24 frames". That's true also. The original order was for 150 frames, now reduced to 126 frames.
But "cancels the last 6 777-300ERs ", that's not true because all the 77Ws that were on order have been delivered already. Emirates has no more 300ER on order. Only X variant as far as the 777 is concerned.

Before you accuse others of talking nonsense, you should perhaps check Boeing's order book. If you are fast enough, you will find in the October numbers still 6 ordered but undelivered 777-300ER for Emirates, that were canceled at the Dubai airshow.
That does not mean that Emirates was prepared to take more 777-300ER, but up to the Dubai air show they were only deferred.

I don't see where the 787 variant is specified as the -9. EK had I believe also specified -10's?

olle wrote:

Now I can see that EK do not want to be a sole customer of a frame again like 380 or 77x.

Do you know that Lufthansa, Cathay, Qatar, ANA, Singapore, and British Airways have all ordered the 779?

justloveplanes wrote:

I don't see where the 787 variant is specified as the -9. EK had I believe also specified -10's?

Original LOI/MOU signed in 2017 was for 40 of the -10 variant.

But the firmed order signed was for 30 of the -9 variant, adjusted from 24 777x and 6 777.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/20/emirate ... plans.html

9Patch wrote:

olle wrote:

Now I can see that EK do not want to be a sole customer of a frame again like 380 or 77x.

Do you know that Lufthansa, Cathay, Qatar, ANA, Singapore, and British Airways have all ordered the 779?

With orders also likely from Air Canada, Air New Zealand, and Qantas in the next couple of years.

Also, I believe Etihad still has some on order.

patrickjp93 wrote:

9Patch wrote:

Do you know that Lufthansa, Cathay, Qatar, ANA, Singapore, and British Airways have all ordered the 779?

With orders also likely from Air Canada, Air New Zealand, and Qantas in the next couple of years.

Extremely unlikely that NZ will purchase the 779 as a 77W replacement. Much more likely will utilise their 787-10 options for that purpose since its performance now seems capable of AKL-West Coast USA, allowing it to standardise on the 787.

DavidByrne wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

9Patch wrote:

Do you know that Lufthansa, Cathay, Qatar, ANA, Singapore, and British Airways have all ordered the 779?

With orders also likely from Air Canada, Air New Zealand, and Qantas in the next couple of years.

Extremely unlikely that NZ will purchase the 779 as a 77W replacement. Much more likely will utilise their 787-10 options for that purpose since its performance now seems capable of AKL-West Coast USA, allowing it to standardise on the 787.

The 777-8/9 can fly a much bigger load to New York and also use New York as the 1-hop to London instead of LAX or SIN. The 787-10 will be the heavy lifter for all California-bound traffic, but for NY/LON traffic, the 777X is the clear winner.

The 787 and 777X also share a type rating, so a shared pilot pool.

Emirates is rethinking their entire strategy which is why they worked out deals with both Airbus and Boeing that will save the company tens of billions of dollars. All while giving both manufacturers the hollow victory of selling a new aircraft type to Emirates. The delays of the 777X are a good thing for Emirates because it will keep them from deferring future deliveries. When 77W retirements start to really take place the 777X will be just fine even if it splits some orders with the A35K

patrickjp93 wrote:

DavidByrne wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

With orders also likely from Air Canada, Air New Zealand, and Qantas in the next couple of years.

Extremely unlikely that NZ will purchase the 779 as a 77W replacement. Much more likely will utilise their 787-10 options for that purpose since its performance now seems capable of AKL-West Coast USA, allowing it to standardise on the 787.

The 777-8/9 can fly a much bigger load to New York and also use New York as the 1-hop to London instead of LAX or SIN. The 787-10 will be the heavy lifter for all California-bound traffic, but for NY/LON traffic, the 777X is the clear winner.

The 787 and 777X also share a type rating, so a shared pilot pool.

This ignores that NZ is dropping LHR and diversifying US destinations using more frequency and smaller aircraft. Not going to happen. Certainly not going to have an orphan fleet of 77X just to serve EWR. Just Not Going To Happen.

American 767 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

SQ789 wrote:

Source please.

https://www.reuters.com/article/emirate ... SD5N1Y301O

Emirates reduces 777X order by 24 frames and cancels the last 6 777-300ER.

Orders 30 787-9.

"Orders 30 787-9". That's true.
"Reduces 777X order by 24 frames". That's true also. The original order was for 150 frames, now reduced to 126 frames.
But "cancels the last 6 777-300ERs ", that's not true because all the 77Ws that were on order have been delivered already. Emirates has no more 300ER on order. Only X variant as far as the 777 is concerned.

Boeing currently lists Emirates as having 156 777s outstanding. The next update will show 126 outstanding, a reduction of 30 (24 x 77X plus 6 x 77W).

Just a reminder to keep your posts on topic and relevant to the discussion including keeping the flamebait out of the discussion

From Boeing's website, the profile of Emirate orders and deliveries. Note 6 outstanding 777-300ER which will be cancelled as part of EK's order shuffle.

scbriml wrote:

From Boeing's website, the profile of Emirate orders and deliveries. Note 6 outstanding 777-300ER which will be cancelled as part of EK's order shuffle.

They didn't list the 777-300 non-ER which was also operated by EK!

L0VE2FLY wrote:

They didn't list the 777-300 non-ER which was also operated by EK!

Yes, curious. Maybe they were ordered via a leasing company? Although they had the Emirates customer code - 1H.

scbriml wrote:

L0VE2FLY wrote:

They didn't list the 777-300 non-ER which was also operated by EK!

Yes, curious. Maybe they were ordered via a leasing company? Although they had the Emirates customer code - 1H.

Emirates 777-300s were all leases from Singapore Aircraft Leasing Enterprises (now part of BOC Aviation) and ILFC (now Aercap). EK never had a direct order for them hence why they are not on that list.

scbriml wrote:

L0VE2FLY wrote:

They didn't list the 777-300 non-ER which was also operated by EK!

Yes, curious. Maybe they were ordered via a leasing company? Although they had the Emirates customer code - 1H.

The non-ER 777-300s were ordered through AerCap (ILFC at the time).

Thanks Polot & EK7777.

It would appear that this case goes under Emirates "Year of Tolerance" campaign (Towards people who won't open their gate and let them in! *Shh* *Shh*)

So the situation as it stands is that EK have 124 B777x on order. No word if they will take the 35 B778s, or even if that model will ever be built. If the B778 is not built, does that mean EK will take all 124 B779s??

There is also the issue with 20 additional frames they have deferred until 2023...be it more 787s or A339s or A350s.

Will those 20 deferred frames reduce their 777x order more too??

Boeing's O&D update for November suggests that Emirates has actually cancelled 41 777s (6 x 77W and 35 x 777X). This is more than was expected from the 787 order announcement. Somewhat suspiciously, 35 is the number of 777-8s that Emirates originally ordered in 2014. Has anyone heard anything to confirm this?

Compare this summary with that in post #20

scbriml wrote:

Boeing's O&D update for November suggests that Emirates has actually cancelled 41 777s (6 x 77W and 35 x 777X). This is more than was expected from the 787 order announcement. Somewhat suspiciously, 35 is the number of 777-8s that Emirates originally ordered in 2014. Has anyone heard anything to confirm this?

Compare this summary with that in post #20

I will put a $0.00 bet that the 777-8X will never see commercial service.

I will also put a $0.00 bet that the 777-10X will never happen.

scbriml wrote:

Boeing's O&D update for November suggests that Emirates has actually cancelled 41 777s (6 x 77W and 35 x 777X). This is more than was expected from the 787 order announcement. Somewhat suspiciously, 35 is the number of 777-8s that Emirates originally ordered in 2014. Has anyone heard anything to confirm this?

Compare this summary with that in post #20

Very interesting. If it's the 778 then that program is DOA. Wonder why Emirates hasn't made a formal announcement, they love to be ahead of the curve. I can't believe Boeing would make a mistake on its O/D sheet so I wonder what changed since Dubai.

WorldFlier wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Boeing's O&D update for November suggests that Emirates has actually cancelled 41 777s (6 x 77W and 35 x 777X). This is more than was expected from the 787 order announcement. Somewhat suspiciously, 35 is the number of 777-8s that Emirates originally ordered in 2014. Has anyone heard anything to confirm this?

Compare this summary with that in post #20

I will put a $0.00 bet that the 777-8X will never see commercial service.

I will also put a $0.00 bet that the 777-10X will never happen.

RIP 777-8, if the number cancelled does indeed relate to the 8's

Don’t write off the -8 too soon. Boeing has a monopoly on the heavy freighter market and a future -8F might be very profitable for them. At this time there is no rush though, as the present -LR based 77F is still selling nicely. And all those 747F won’t live forever.

76er wrote:

And all those 747F won’t live forever.

The -8F still has a lot of time left. Boeing is still making it. The -8i maybe not anymore, but the 8F yes.

Still making it, but for how much longer?

76er wrote:

Still making it, but for how much longer?

didn't the first production line for 747 parts closed recently, the beginning of the end.

patrickjp93 wrote:

9Patch wrote:

olle wrote:

Now I can see that EK do not want to be a sole customer of a frame again like 380 or 77x.

Do you know that Lufthansa, Cathay, Qatar, ANA, Singapore, and British Airways have all ordered the 779?

With orders also likely from Air Canada, Air New Zealand, and Qantas in the next couple of years.

Also, I believe Etihad still has some on order.

Honestly, I'd be surprised by an AC order. I think there is a strong possibility that they might head the A350 direction at renewal time. Yes, they can use 779-sized aircraft, but generally they are better suited to 359-sized aircraft with a few 35Js.

That said, I don't expect any AC widebody orders for quite a few years. They don't need to start replacing their 777 fleet for at least another decade, at the earliest.

July 2014. Emirates and Boeing firmed up a massive order for 150 777X first announced at the previous Dubai Air Show. The order comprised of 115 777-9 and 35 777-8.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28228375

Fast forward to early November 2019 and Emirates has been working on a significant shift in strategy and reworking orders - cancelling A380s and replacing them with 50 A350-900s and ordering 30 787-9s. Emirates press release for the 787 order stated that they were exercising their contractual right to swap 777X orders for 787s.
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... i-airshow/

The pr stated:

For the B777X, Emirates will enter into discussions with Boeing over the next few weeks on the status of deliveries. This takes Emirates’ total order with Boeing to 126 Boeing 777X aircraft.

So, Emirates said it was reducing its 777X order by 24 frames. Combined with the cancellation of their last six outstanding 77Ws, this meant they were swapping a total of 30 777s for the 30 787-9s just ordered.

Fast forward again to early December and Boeing has updated their orders and delivery pages with November's data. That data now shows that Emirates 777X order has been reduced by 35 frames, not the 24 previously communicated. The six 77Ws have also been removed. The airline profile for Emirates now shows no 77W left outstanding and 'only' 115 777X outstanding (down from the original 150).
Screenshot from Boeing's website:


So Boeing's data is saying that Emirates actually cancelled a total of 41 777s. Even allowing for the swap to 30 787-9s, the revenue hit for Boeing is not insignificant. But, the most interesting part is that the apparent cancellation of 35 777X exactly matches the number of 777-8 previously ordered by Emirates. Combined with Boeing's recent announcement that they were "pushing back deliveries" one has to wonder if we've just seen Emirates 'kill' the 777-8?

This is supposition on my part based on:

Boeing's updated order & delivery data.
The fact that Boeing has delayed the 777-8.
The fact that Emirates specifically said they were discussing deliveries with Boeing.
The increase in the number of 777X that Emirates said they were cancelling.

There has been no apparent acknowledgement from either Boeing nor Emirates that 41 777s have indeed been cancelled, but the data is there on Boeing's website (it also shows total outstanding 777X orders as 309 down from 344 a month earlier).

Is the number of 777X frames cancelled purely coincidental with the 35 -8s previously ordered? If Emirates has indeed cancelled their entire order, then if that hasn't killed the 777-8, it's left it in a critical condition on life support.

Dutchy wrote:

76er wrote:

Still making it, but for how much longer?

didn't the first production line for 747 parts closed recently, the beginning of the end.

It was recently reported that a Triumph Aerospace factory that supplies some of the major parts for the 747 has shut down. Here is a thread about that:
viewtopic.php?t=1435359

Based on the discussion, it sounds like there is a potential to consolidate that work elsewhere, which I presume would involve moving tooling from Triumph to the new location. Presumably, that would not happen unless Boeing has an order in hand. I doubt they would invest in doing so at this stage on a "we're thinking about placing an order in 3-4 years" level of interest.

Obviously, we don't know but if the cancellations are 777-8s, then Boeing have little choice but to terminate the program. The business case just doesn't make sense. Without EK, the only firm customer is QR who have already hinted they may convert their 10 orders to 787s. QF is also a chance, but it is only a small fleet they are after.

tullamarine wrote:

Obviously, we don't know but if the cancellations are 777-8s, then Boeing have little choice but to terminate the program. The business case just doesn't make sense. Without EK, the only firm customer is QR who have already hinted they may convert their 10 orders to 787s. QF is also a chance, but it is only a small fleet they are after.

Or the platform for the 777X-F. The 77F is in a league of its own for now, and they might just keep making that, but the freighter could be enough.

scbriml wrote:

one has to wonder if we've just seen Emirates 'kill' the 777-8?

That's not the worse situation for BCA 77X. At this point, I am concerned more about 779. If BCA talked EK into canceling all 778s, I would say that it is an achievement for the sales team.

EChid wrote:

patrickjp93 wrote:

9Patch wrote:

Do you know that Lufthansa, Cathay, Qatar, ANA, Singapore, and British Airways have all ordered the 779?

With orders also likely from Air Canada, Air New Zealand, and Qantas in the next couple of years.

Also, I believe Etihad still has some on order.

Honestly, I'd be surprised by an AC order. I think there is a strong possibility that they might head the A350 direction at renewal time. Yes, they can use 779-sized aircraft, but generally they are better suited to 359-sized aircraft with a few 35Js.

That said, I don't expect any AC widebody orders for quite a few years. They don't need to start replacing their 777 fleet for at least another decade, at the earliest.

Given AC would love nothing more than to up-gauge SYD-YVR to a 777-300ER size if it could, it can't. Yes the A350-900 and -1000 can improve on the 789 and 772 running to Melbourne and Sydney, but not optimally. AC has exceptional yields from Sydney and Melbourne, with Brisbane being an unfortunately unpopular route when it's not ski season...

tullamarine wrote:

Obviously, we don't know but if the cancellations are 777-8s, then Boeing have little choice but to terminate the program. The business case just doesn't make sense. Without EK, the only firm customer is QR who have already hinted they may convert their 10 orders to 787s. QF is also a chance, but it is only a small fleet they are after.

It’s a real shame that Boeing doesn’t break down the 777X (or MAX for that matter) orders by type. It would make life easier for us geeks!

scbriml wrote:

Wow, it really is all smoke and mirrors from Boeing.

patrickjp93 wrote:

Given AC would love nothing more than to up-gauge SYD-YVR to a 777-300ER size if it could, it can't. Yes the A350-900 and -1000 can improve on the 789 and 772 running to Melbourne and Sydney, but not optimally. AC has exceptional yields from Sydney and Melbourne, with Brisbane being an unfortunately unpopular route when it's not ski season...

WorldFlier wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Boeing's O&D update for November suggests that Emirates has actually cancelled 41 777s (6 x 77W and 35 x 777X). This is more than was expected from the 787 order announcement. Somewhat suspiciously, 35 is the number of 777-8s that Emirates originally ordered in 2014. Has anyone heard anything to confirm this?

Compare this summary with that in post #20

I will put a $0.00 bet that the 777-8X will never see commercial service.

I will also put a $0.00 bet that the 777-10X will never happen.

You sure put your money where your mouth is, well played sir

Really, some guys should take a breath here.

Certainly EK is not impressed and the cancellation is the best instrument to build up pressure on Boeing. We all know Boeing does not make a good performance (737 Max, 787 Quality issues, 777-X cargo door etc. pp.) and they need hard pressure now.

As we know, a cancellation is not a forever thing with EK (see A350) so if the 777-9 delivers good or better performance than expected, top-up orders will following.

And yes, the 777-8 will come along and it is still needed for the freighter, at some point the 777F need an update, they can not build it for another 20 years.

Binning the 778X makes sense as the 77L and then the A359 can do anything they would realistically want the 778X for. Believe their longest route is AKL non-stop isn't it? A359 can do that no problem.

76er wrote:

Don’t write off the -8 too soon. Boeing has a monopoly on the heavy freighter market and a future -8F might be very profitable for them. At this time there is no rush though, as the present -LR based 77F is still selling nicely. And all those 747F won’t live forever.

Hmmm... spend money to replace one of your types, the 77F, with another type of yours when you have a monopoly?
Unless Airbus decides to make an A35kF Boeing probably won't have that much reason to do it...

Best regards
Thomas

According to Flightglobal article, Emirates has dropped 14 B779s and 10 B778s from its B777X order.

Link: https://www.flightglobal.com/orders-and ... 57.article

76er wrote:

Don’t write off the -8 too soon. Boeing has a monopoly on the heavy freighter market and a future -8F might be very profitable for them. At this time there is no rush though, as the present -LR based 77F is still selling nicely. And all those 747F won’t live forever.

The problem with the 777-8F is, what would would be better about it than the 777F? You get less full burn, slightly more volume and less payload. Where is the advantage for freight airlines, that do not care that much about fuel burn?