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D L X
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KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:12 pm

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2019- ... cpphS.html

KL685, operating AMS-MEX on 11/28/19 was diverted back to AMS because of the intermittent eruption of Popocatepetl near Medico City. But that’s not what makes this story strange.

The flight was diverted over Nova Scotia, having already crossed the Atlantic, to cross the Atlantic again. Instead of diverting to any of BOS, YHZ, CUN, etc., they chose to go back to AMS.

Why? Some are saying because the plane was carrying 28 horses, and no other diversion point was possible.

Do you buy it? I’d be pretty pissed.

Also, all the other transatlantic flights to MEX appear to have landed without diversion.
 
Eikie
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:05 pm

I do know it is rather difficult to arrange the paperwork (veterinarian, customs, etc) for 28 horses if you divert to another country than planned. Besides that, horses do require different lodging than people and arranging that on short term is also challenging.

I do also know they once diverted to a Canadian airport due to a medical issue, with horses on board and that earned them a lot of critique when the horses weren't allowed to leave the airplane since the airport couldn't handle them.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a575886
 
D L X
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:25 pm

Why not CUN then?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:34 pm

D L X wrote:
Why not CUN then?


CUN may not have the facilities to handle the horses. So they may have had the equally poor choices of somewhere like SDF, which could likely have handled the horses on short notice but where there would have been customs issues, or CUN, which may have had the opposite situation. You need both to divert sensibly.
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D L X
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:51 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
D L X wrote:
Why not CUN then?


CUN may not have the facilities to handle the horses. So they may have had the equally poor choices of somewhere like SDF, which could likely have handled the horses on short notice but where there would have been customs issues, or CUN, which may have had the opposite situation. You need both to divert sensibly.

Yeah, I figure nowhere in the US would ultimately work due to customs issues.
Sounds like a major flaw in planning if a flight carrying horses cannot divert. What would have happened if they were further along when the volcano erupted?
 
ibthebigd
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:59 pm

I didn't know horses flew commercial. I thought they flew on charter cargo planes.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
migair54
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:24 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
I didn't know horses flew commercial. I thought they flew on charter cargo planes.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


They don't do, I guess it was one of the B747 combi, horses need to have a special crew with them to take care of them, in a normal cargo hold that can't be done because access to the cargo hold is not allow. So usually horses fly in dedicated cargo planes or in this case in the Combi.

D L X wrote:
The flight was diverted over Nova Scotia, having already crossed the Atlantic, to cross the Atlantic again. Instead of diverting to any of BOS, YHZ, CUN, etc., they chose to go back to AMS.


Crossing the atlantic is not a big issue for a company like KLM, and the NA ATC is quite good, the main issue here is the fuel, but if they have enough it's a good decision to go back AMS and sort out the issue there, it was not a very normal situation, it's not like any other cargo, it has a lot of challenges and a decission has to be made considering lots of factors that are quite complicated.
 
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xaapb
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:25 pm

I live in Mexico City an I can tell that Popocatepetl Volcano apart from some plumes of gas and ashes it didn't had any "major" eruption yesterday that disrupted airport operations.

Greetings.
Jorge Meneses
 
Cubsrule
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:31 pm

D L X wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
D L X wrote:
Why not CUN then?


CUN may not have the facilities to handle the horses. So they may have had the equally poor choices of somewhere like SDF, which could likely have handled the horses on short notice but where there would have been customs issues, or CUN, which may have had the opposite situation. You need both to divert sensibly.

Yeah, I figure nowhere in the US would ultimately work due to customs issues.
Sounds like a major flaw in planning if a flight carrying horses cannot divert. What would have happened if they were further along when the volcano erupted?


I'm not so sure, because of this:

xaapb wrote:
I live in Mexico City an I can tell that Popocatepetl Volcano apart from some plumes of gas and ashes it didn't had any "major" eruption yesterday that disrupted airport operations.

Greetings.


Volcanic eruptions aren't like tornadoes; they evolve slowly. This smells to me like they perhaps had a point over Canada where they would make a (conservative) decision about carrying on or going back to AMS. That's not terribly passenger-friendly but also isn't operationally concerning.
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Siren
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:26 pm

Good to also remember that, like BA, KL is particularly gunshy when it comes to volcanic ash. No doubt their history on the subject is playing into the overly conservative call to return to AMS...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:42 pm

migair54 wrote:
I guess it was one of the B747 combi,


PH-BFT is indeed a "M".
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:09 pm

After reading what Xaapb wrote, the cynic deeply embedded in me says:
The reason for return is whatever it is
The volcanic eruption seems like a quite lame attempt to avoid the EC 261 compensation.
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:28 pm

I get the horses made this unique. I wonder why another airport in Mexico didn't make sense maybe they didn't have the services for this many horses? CUN had to have facilities but maybe just too many horses.

It seems like something like horses shouldn't have be loaded if there was a chance they couldn't land in MEX.
 
Judge1310
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:36 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I get the horses made this unique. I wonder why another airport in Mexico didn't make sense maybe they didn't have the services for this many horses? CUN had to have facilities but maybe just too many horses.

It seems like something like horses shouldn't have be loaded if there was a chance they couldn't land in MEX.


Well thank heavens you've nothing to do with flight planning/network operations ... goodness gracious, if we opted to not dispatch flights or accept certain payload due to "...a chance they couldn't land..." at some airport, we might as well turn in the proverbial keys and shut down the airline. In the end, it's better to return from where one started and try again later, than to divert somewhere and create a customs/quarantine/social media fiasco.
 
D L X
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:46 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I get the horses made this unique. I wonder why another airport in Mexico didn't make sense maybe they didn't have the services for this many horses? CUN had to have facilities but maybe just too many horses.

It seems like something like horses shouldn't have be loaded if there was a chance they couldn't land in MEX.


Well thank heavens you've nothing to do with flight planning/network operations ... goodness gracious, if we opted to not dispatch flights or accept certain payload due to "...a chance they couldn't land..." at some airport, we might as well turn in the proverbial keys and shut down the airline. In the end, it's better to return from where one started and try again later, than to divert somewhere and create a customs/quarantine/social media fiasco.

It’s not just that they couldn’t land at “some” airport, but that they couldn’t land at ANY airport other than AMS.

This also seriously inconvenienced 250 passengers when it appears no other airlines were affected.

How often are passengers inconvenienced because of the cargo on the plane? I’m just trying to understand why there were no alternates possible.
Last edited by D L X on Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:47 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I get the horses made this unique. I wonder why another airport in Mexico didn't make sense maybe they didn't have the services for this many horses? CUN had to have facilities but maybe just too many horses.

It seems like something like horses shouldn't have be loaded if there was a chance they couldn't land in MEX.


Well thank heavens you've nothing to do with flight planning/network operations ... goodness gracious, if we opted to not dispatch flights or accept certain payload due to "...a chance they couldn't land..." at some airport, we might as well turn in the proverbial keys and shut down the airline. In the end, it's better to return from where one started and try again later, than to divert somewhere and create a customs/quarantine/social media fiasco.


Finally someone with a decent approach to this. None of you where there when this call was made by the flight crew I rest asure this was not made lightly. Apart from the horses there was the small issue passengers without proper visas etc do diverting to the US would be a challenge. Did the volcano erupt when the flight left Amsterdam if so the would not have departed. Ultimately the pilots we trust make the decision, and I'm sure the made the right one.
Flying blue only if possible
 
lowfareair
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:53 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Apart from the horses there was the small issue passengers without proper visas etc do diverting to the US would be a challenge.


CUN would still be a possibility (assuming the horses were the reason they didn't divert there).

I guess the other question is that KLM likely makes a pretty penny when they transport horses like these, so will they give the passengers get any extra reimbursement for having to turn around and go all the way back to Amsterdam due to these horses, or will they fight any EU 261 compensation (claiming the volcano was a natural event) even though the pax likely could have arrived 12-24 hours sooner if the plane didn't have horses and diverted somewhere like CUN.
 
FGITD
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:30 pm

D L X wrote:

This also seriously inconvenienced 250 passengers when it appears no other airlines were affected.

How often are passengers inconvenienced because of the cargo on the plane? I’m just trying to understand why there were no alternates possible.


Almost never, aside from perhaps a few minutes delay here and there while loading the plane.

But again, horses are a very complicated type of cargo. There's extremely strict procedures/regulations in place, and it's not as if you're simply handling a regular pallet.

And also handling a combi is a different story in itself. Believe it or not, many major airports cannot handle main deck cargo of any sort. So going to CUN for example, might have been a better pax experience. But a complete nightmare for horses. and most airlines will care more about the contract to carry those horses than about the pax, majority of which will continue to book whoever is cheapest in the future regardless of past experiences
 
x1234
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:36 pm

Not all Mexican travelers have US visas and Mexican citizens can enter the UK & Schengen zone VISA FREE. CUN would have had loading problems for the horses. I remember there was a Russian charter flight to Cuba that landed in New Jersey once and CBP confined them to a closed area and gave them food & drink & toilet access.
 
Flaps
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:51 pm

Horses that travel by air are extremely valuable and sensitive cargo. They require very specific handling both in the air and on the ground. They also require specifically equipped facilities that are simply not commonly available. It is exactly as described by FGITD above. The pax cost/inconvenience is practically microscopic compared to the potential costs and damages involving the horses. Not only are the horses extremely valuable they are typically owned by highly influential people and organizations that can have a huge impact on a carriers cargo reputation and ability to secure contracts. These horses are of the very a few of a kind nature where pax are quite simply a dime a dozen.
 
D L X
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:12 pm

Flaps wrote:
Horses that travel by air are extremely valuable and sensitive cargo.

.....

These horses are of the very a few of a kind nature where pax are quite simply a dime a dozen.

Well I learned something today: don’t fly with horses.
 
jjbiv
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:32 pm

It seems strange they couldn't have diverted to another airport in Mexico (e.g. GDL, MTY, TLC, etc.) These airports routinely handle cargo flights and even high-value horses are not uncommon in Mexico. I would think making plans for an alternate airport would be part of transporting cargo (like horses) which have particular handling requirements. The poor passengers were treated like sacrificial lambs in this incident. It would make more sense to restrict horses and similar cargo to freighter flights if alternate arrangements handling cannot be made.
 
777Mech
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:42 pm

jjbiv wrote:
It seems strange they couldn't have diverted to another airport in Mexico (e.g. GDL, MTY, TLC, etc.) These airports routinely handle cargo flights and even high-value horses are not uncommon in Mexico. I would think making plans for an alternate airport would be part of transporting cargo (like horses) which have particular handling requirements. The poor passengers were treated like sacrificial lambs in this incident. It would make more sense to restrict horses and similar cargo to freighter flights if alternate arrangements handling cannot be made.


This is the most dramatic post on A-net. Sacrificial lambs? Come on now. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
RvA
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:53 pm

Lol at the comments. Not many actual airliners on airliners.net you can see from some of the comments. Glad though many know better than the crew and ops folks involved it means for the future when these people get into airlines better decisions will be made...
 
jjbiv
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:06 pm

777Mech wrote:
jjbiv wrote:
It seems strange they couldn't have diverted to another airport in Mexico (e.g. GDL, MTY, TLC, etc.) These airports routinely handle cargo flights and even high-value horses are not uncommon in Mexico. I would think making plans for an alternate airport would be part of transporting cargo (like horses) which have particular handling requirements. The poor passengers were treated like sacrificial lambs in this incident. It would make more sense to restrict horses and similar cargo to freighter flights if alternate arrangements handling cannot be made.


This is the most dramatic post on A-net. Sacrificial lambs? Come on now. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.


LOL. There must have been another option, right? As a paying passenger I dont think you would have been very pleased to be sent back to AMS after already crossing the Atlantic due to traveling on a flight with horses onboard because the airline couldn't be troubled to make other arrangements for the precious cargo. What would KL have done if the weather unexpectedly deteriorated when the flight was closer to MEX? The horses were prioritied over the passengers on this flight and were thus sacrificed to ensure the best possible outcome for the horses. It's pretty straightforward really.
 
 
AR385
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:20 am

The only question I have is why the flight diverted. MEX has been operating with that volcano acting up like that for the past 25 years with worse "eruptions". It is probably the most monitored volcano in the world. I guess it was out of an abundance of caution. And it was the correct decision. Those horses are likely million dollar + Grand Prix /Olympics or Studs and are very skittish, temperamental and delicate. Sometimes they die inflight, so it is not a good proposition to have to land somewhere else than where the contract states. KLM is one of the best carriers out there for these type of cargo, they have the reputation and have to maintain it. While MTY and GDL have world class horse riding facilities I´m not sure THEIR AIRPORTS have the facilities to handle the animals. Most of the time they get to MEX and are transported by road to other cities. In any case, the combis have been handed their death sentence and as they are retired, this problems will disappear.
 
D L X
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:20 am

AR385 wrote:
The only question I have is why the flight diverted. MEX has been operating with that volcano acting up like that for the past 25 years with worse "eruptions". It is probably the most monitored volcano in the world.


That’s my question too. I think it was the only diversion.


And it was the correct decision.


Not convinced yet.
Those horses are likely million dollar + Grand Prix /Olympics or Studs and are very skittish, temperamental and delicate. Sometimes they die inflight, so it is not a good proposition to have to land somewhere else than where the contract states. KLM is one of the best carriers out there for these type of cargo, they have the reputation and have to maintain it. While MTY and GDL have world class horse riding facilities I´m not sure THEIR AIRPORTS have the facilities to handle the animals. Most of the time they get to MEX and are transported by road to other cities. In any case, the combis have been handed their death sentence and as they are retired, this problems will disappear.


And this is why I’d be pissed off if I was a paying customer on this flight. I don’t give a flying flip about a horse when I’m trying to get somewhere, and I’d be pretty upset that my day was taken and another one necessary because the airline deemed the cargo more important than the passengers.

No biggie though. I don’t fly KL anyways, so it dorsnt matter what I think. I just thought the story was really interesting.
 
RvA
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:07 am

Unless someone from KLM can give background info this is all pointless guesswork. Horses are precious cargo and need special care. If they deemed this to be the right call then that’s it. Not an easy call to make I’m sure. Too bad for the inconvenience to the pax but sh!t happens.
 
HPRamper
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:02 pm

RvA wrote:
Unless someone from KLM can give background info this is all pointless guesswork. Horses are precious cargo and need special care. If they deemed this to be the right call then that’s it. Not an easy call to make I’m sure. Too bad for the inconvenience to the pax but sh!t happens.

Exactly.
Anyone can complain all they want but in the end, this is the way things are done. Horses and really, any large animal shipments are a big dot deal. If we have a flight with horses, that aircraft cannot be diverted to pick up recovery freight even if there's a planeload of priority or postal cargo sitting stranded somewhere. Animals are the closest thing to untouchable cargo we have.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:09 pm

Were there any human passengers on this flight or just horses?
 
D L X
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:12 pm

RvA wrote:
Unless someone from KLM can give background info this is all pointless guesswork. Horses are precious cargo and need special care. If they deemed this to be the right call then that’s it. Not an easy call to make I’m sure. Too bad for the inconvenience to the pax but sh!t happens.

If it’s pointless to you, you needn’t participate if you don’t think you have anything to contribute. Some of us think it’s interesting. Don’t yuck our yum.

But I do not agree with this idea that if they did it, it was right. Not without explanation. If the explanation is (as some have said) that the horses are more important than the passengers, that’s fine. I won’t fly them as I prefer being treated more important than the cargo. I’ll fly any of the airlines that successfully landed at MEX that day, noting that this eruption was a non-event.

smokeybandit wrote:
Were there any human passengers on this flight or just horses?

Yes. 257 passengers.
 
DDR
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:21 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Were there any human passengers on this flight or just horses?



250 passengers according to a post above.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:55 pm

You should not land at an airport without B747 cargo handling equipment.
These horses where on the main deck.
Not many airports have that on some routes.

Plus when you have an airport that does have that equipment: how is the weather at that airport? How are the visa requirements? How are the customs?
Is there a crew to take over the aircraft?
If not, how long does the original crew need to rest before they can work again?
And how do you think the vulcano will progress? If tomorrow the situation is perhaps still not good enough, then the airplane needs to return to AMS anyway?
Hotels etc.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:35 pm

That volcano erupts rather frequently. Medical and maintenance diversions on Atlantic crossings are also not that uncommon. If the AMS diversion was in part due to the horses, what would KL have done if the volcano erupted later in flight? What about a medical or maintenance to a place like YQX/BGR? It does seem like a lack of planning for them to not have a back up plan in place other than destination or departure airport.

Every airline that flies into MEX or that operates in parts of the world with volcanoes has specialists either in house or contracted that monitor the volcanic activity. I am curious what KL's people saw that other airlines didn't see. It looks really bad for the volcano specialist/meteorologist if they are only one recommending a suspension to operations. It also looks really bad for the airline if they are the only ones canceling or diverting. If airlines diverted and cancelled every time that Popocatepetl erupted, MEX would be closed half the year or more.
 
76er
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Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:00 pm

Here's a copy of the VAAC's on the 28th:



FVXX21 at 09:12 UTC, 28/11/19 from KNES
VA ADVISORY
DTG: 20191128/0909Z

VAAC: WASHINGTON

VOLCANO: POPOCATEPETL 341090
PSN: N1901 W09837

AREA: MEXICO

SUMMIT ELEV: 17802 FT [5426 M]

ADVISORY NR: 2019/1145

INFO SOURCE: GOES-EAST. MEXICO CITY MWO. WEB CAM.
NWP MODELS. VOLCAT. CENAPRED.

ERUPTION DETAILS: NEW MDT VA PUFF.

OBS VA DTG: 28/0901Z

OBS VA CLD: SFC/FL240 N1914 W09841 - N1904 W09836
- N1902 W09841 - N1911 W09844 - N1914 W09841 MOV
NW 10-15KT

FCST VA CLD +6HR: 28/1500Z SFC/FL240 NO ASH EXP

FCST VA CLD +12HR: 28/2100Z NO ASH EXP

FCST VA CLD +18HR: 29/0300Z NO ASH EXP

RMK: MWO RPRTS SINGLE MDT EM. CONFIRMED IN STLT
AND VOLCAT PROD AS WELL AS WEBCAM. VA MOV TO NW
OF SUMMIT AND EXPECTED TO DISPERSE BY NEXT
UPDATE. ...LEE

NXT ADVISORY: WILL BE ISSUED BY 20191128/1515Z


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FVXX21 at 15:12 UTC, 28/11/19 from KNES
VA ADVISORY
DTG: 20191128/1510Z

VAAC: WASHINGTON

VOLCANO: POPOCATEPETL 341090
PSN: N1901 W09837

AREA: MEXICO

SUMMIT ELEV: 17802 FT [5426 M]

ADVISORY NR: 2019/1146

INFO SOURCE: GOES-EAST. NWP MODELS. VOLCAT.

ERUPTION DETAILS: CONT VA EMS

OBS VA DTG: 26/1501Z

OBS VA CLD: SFC/FL210 N2017 W09902 - N1859 W09838
- N1952 W09913 - N2017 W09902 MOV N 20KT

FCST VA CLD +6HR: 26/2100Z SFC/FL210 N2029 W09902
- N1859 W09839 - N1955 W09919 - N2029 W09902

FCST VA CLD +12HR: 27/0300Z SFC/FL210 N2037
W09900 - N1900 W09838 - N1955 W09923 - N2037
W09900

FCST VA CLD +18HR: 27/0900Z SFC/FL210 NO ASH EXP

RMK: CONT VA EMS OBS MOV N TO NEAR 45NM FM SUMMIT
IN STLT IMAGERY. NWP MDLS SUGGEST CONT N MOV THRU
T+12HRS. ...FISHER

NXT ADVISORY: WILL BE ISSUED BY 20191128/2115Z



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Explosive activity continues. Volcanic Ash Advisory Center (VAAC) Washington warned about a volcanic ash plume that rose up to estimated 21000 ft (6400 m) altitude or flight level 210 .
The full report is as follows:

FVXX21 at 23:30 UTC, 28/11/19 from KNES
VA ADVISORY
DTG: 20191128/2329Z

VAAC: WASHINGTON

VOLCANO: POPOCATEPETL 341090
PSN: N1901 W09837

AREA: MEXICO

SUMMIT ELEV: 17802 FT [5426 M]

ADVISORY NR: 2019/1147

INFO SOURCE: GOES-EAST. WEB CAM. NWP MODELS.
VOLCAT.

ERUPTION DETAILS: CONT PUFFS OF VA MOV N

OBS VA DTG: 28/2316Z

OBS VA CLD: SFC/FL210 N1943 W09839 - N1902 W09836
- N1901 W09841 - N1935 W09858 - N1943 W09839 MOV
N 20-25KT

FCST VA CLD +6HR: 29/0530Z SFC/FL210 N2008 W09843
- N1902 W09834 - N1859 W09839 - N1959 W09917 -
N2008 W09843

FCST VA CLD +12HR: 29/1130Z SFC/FL210 N2010
W09843 - N1901 W09836 - N1859 W09840 - N1959
W09918 - N2010 W09843

FCST VA CLD +18HR: 29/1730Z SFC/FL210 NO ASH EXP

RMK: VA IS SEEN MOV NNW UP TO 42 NM FM THE
SUMMIT. NWP MDL INDICATES A CONT NNW VA MOV THRU
+12HRS. ...ZHU

NXT ADVISORY: WILL BE ISSUED BY 20191129/0530Z


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Emissions up to 24.000 feet is no childsplay.
 
RvA
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:22 pm

D L X wrote:
RvA wrote:
Unless someone from KLM can give background info this is all pointless guesswork. Horses are precious cargo and need special care. If they deemed this to be the right call then that’s it. Not an easy call to make I’m sure. Too bad for the inconvenience to the pax but sh!t happens.

If it’s pointless to you, you needn’t participate if you don’t think you have anything to contribute. Some of us think it’s interesting. Don’t yuck our yum.

But I do not agree with this idea that if they did it, it was right. Not without explanation. If the explanation is (as some have said) that the horses are more important than the passengers, that’s fine. I won’t fly them as I prefer being treated more important than the cargo. I’ll fly any of the airlines that successfully landed at MEX that day, noting that this eruption was a non-event.

smokeybandit wrote:
Were there any human passengers on this flight or just horses?

Yes. 257 passengers.


It is interesting but the armchair airline ops comments are not. Actual insight and experience is.

Cargo btw is more often than you think more important than the pax. Seen various examples of aircraft blocking rows and even bumping a few pax (rebooked via partner airlines) in order to take particular cargo on a flight.
 
airbuster
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:58 pm

RvA wrote:
Unless someone from KLM can give background info this is all pointless guesswork. Horses are precious cargo and need special care. If they deemed this to be the right call then that’s it. Not an easy call to make I’m sure. Too bad for the inconvenience to the pax but sh!t happens.


I’ll try and dig into it tomorrow.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
asdf
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:36 am

i think this was simply a timing problem

as the volcano info came up they seem to have been over the ocean
thats maybe pretty nearly at the point where the fuel was sufficient to reach AMS in a safe way

to find out if CUN could handle the horses or if there would be any other airport in the aerea would have needed more then only a couple of minutes

but then it probably would be to late to reach AMS ....

so they take the safe bet and turned around right away
 
santi319
Posts: 1004
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:29 am

Um their alternate is and has always been QRO, surely a city 2 hrs from MEX is a better diversion point for the horses? Wonder why they did what they did?
 
FGITD
Posts: 874
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:35 am

I believe KLM themselves said in a statement that they returned to AMS due to visa concerns and the well-being of the horses. So I'm not entirely sure what some users are expecting them to say beyond that...

And bear in mind, the passenger on the plane is not the only customer effected on these flights. So sure, it's tough being a pax in this situation. But again...say you paid $1000 rt. Do you think any airline prefers to upset you (at $1000) or the horse customer, who paid several thousand to ship the horse, who is likely worth several hundred thousand.

It's unfortunate, but there's much more at play when these decision are made than inconveniencing the pax.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:14 am

You guys seems to think all KLM aircraft have full Cancun aerodrome information in their FMS date bases.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:16 am

santi319 wrote:
Um their alternate is and has always been QRO, surely a city 2 hrs from MEX is a better diversion point for the horses? Wonder why they did what they did?


QRO can not handle horses.
 
Glareskin
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:35 pm

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:59 am

I was in Mexico-city and scheduled to fly back to AMS in C. I received a cancelation message and immediately got the option in the KLM app to book on the A380 to Paris with a connecting flight to AMS. Which I did. I had to leave a couple of hours earlier which damaged my program in Mexico. With a 3 hour layover in CDG I arrived eventually 2,5 hours later than scheduled in AMS. But then I got in the evening traffic which brought the total delay to 5 hours. For some bloody horses!!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
RvA
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:39 am

Glareskin wrote:
I was in Mexico-city and scheduled to fly back to AMS in C. I received a cancelation message and immediately got the option in the KLM app to book on the A380 to Paris with a connecting flight to AMS. Which I did. I had to leave a couple of hours earlier which damaged my program in Mexico. With a 3 hour layover in CDG I arrived eventually 2,5 hours later than scheduled in AMS. But then I got in the evening traffic which brought the total delay to 5 hours. For some bloody horses!!


Sorry to hear that. Next time let’s hope they just go ahead with whatever mess may follow as long as they don’t inconvenience you.
 
Flanker7
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:20 am

Glareskin wrote:
I was in Mexico-city and scheduled to fly back to AMS in C. I received a cancelation message and immediately got the option in the KLM app to book on the A380 to Paris with a connecting flight to AMS. Which I did. I had to leave a couple of hours earlier which damaged my program in Mexico. With a 3 hour layover in CDG I arrived eventually 2,5 hours later than scheduled in AMS. But then I got in the evening traffic which brought the total delay to 5 hours. For some bloody horses!!


Why care about anything else other then yourself Glareskin. Too bad you had to go home in rush hour must have been a real pain and that you got inconvenienced by all this. In all honesty grow up pls.
Flying blue only if possible
 
santi319
Posts: 1004
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:40 am

Flanker7 wrote:
Glareskin wrote:
I was in Mexico-city and scheduled to fly back to AMS in C. I received a cancelation message and immediately got the option in the KLM app to book on the A380 to Paris with a connecting flight to AMS. Which I did. I had to leave a couple of hours earlier which damaged my program in Mexico. With a 3 hour layover in CDG I arrived eventually 2,5 hours later than scheduled in AMS. But then I got in the evening traffic which brought the total delay to 5 hours. For some bloody horses!!


Why care about anything else other then yourself Glareskin. Too bad you had to go home in rush hour must have been a real pain and that you got inconvenienced by all this. In all honesty grow up pls.

Exactly! Think about the horses dammit!
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 586
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:21 am

The horses come first and as long as KLM upheld its reputation as a world class airline by fairly compensating the pax, there shouldn’t be any issues here. By the way, were the horses quarantined when they returned to AMS? I was thinking of the possibility that equine influenza or something else was detected in this group.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
 
Glareskin
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:35 pm

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:40 am

RvA"
Sorry to hear that. Next time let’s hope they just go ahead with whatever mess may follow as long as they don’t inconvenience you.[/quote]

[quote="Flanker7 wrote:
Why care about anything else other then yourself Glareskin. Too bad you had to go home in rush hour must have been a real pain and that you got inconvenienced by all this. In all honesty grow up pls.


Interesting to tell somebody to grow up in a childish reaction. Look, I just took the liberty to share my experience as we are supposed to do on this forum. Fact is that a paid 6500 Euro for a business class ticket and KLM decided to cancel my flight because of some horses. All other European flights made it to Mexico so yes I wasn't happy with KLM. Deal with it!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: KL685 AMS-MEX diverted because volcano and horses?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:59 am

They will claim extraordinary circumstances with the volcano but they won’t win if the passengers push it, because the other airlines had no issue, so the volcano is only part of the story, the main reason was the horses that KLM chose to load.

They won’t get away with saying this diversion was out of their control, IMO.

lowfareair wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:


CUN would still be a possibility (assuming the horses were the reason they didn't divert there).

I guess the other question is that KLM likely makes a pretty penny when they transport horses like these, so will they give the passengers get any extra reimbursement for having to turn around and go all the way back to Amsterdam due to these horses, or will they fight any EU 261 compensation (claiming the volcano was a natural event) even though the pax likely could have arrived 12-24 hours sooner if the plane didn't have horses and diverted somewhere like CUN.

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