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smi0006
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:47 am

tullamarine wrote:
qf789 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Interestingly the article suggests the same aircraft would be used on the BNE/PER to LHR.

Probably would suggest that the current MEL-PER-LHR would become MEL-LHR and BNE-PER-LHR if/should Project Sunrise become reality.


That’s not what article says, it refers to both PER and BNE operating as non stops

The grammar is unclear and either interpretation could be made.

What is more news is that the business case is so marginal that it is still not ready to go to the BoD. AJ has gone back to Boeing and Airbus after price decreases but even that is hard to see overcoming such an issue. A price reduction of say $10M per plane approximates to a saving of $1667 per flight (assuming 20 years service with 300 flights per year). $1667 is only around 1.5 economy passengers so hardly significant. The issues appear to be whether the hardware actually exists to reliably complete these flights nonstop and whether customers will be prepared to pay a significant premium to save 3 hours. Unfortunately, the whole project has also got embroiled in a dispute with pilots, some of whom now feel they are being asked to take cuts to fund the project. The upside for the pilots with Sunrise is a bit hard to see so they have decided to play hardball.

Sunrise has been a trophy project for AJ but he is an accountant at heart and, if the numbers don't add up, he will walk away.


Indeed it’s an interesting article on many levels - light on sources from within QF, and would allude to some PR spin by the pilots. But AJ has clearly shown he will take the unions on. His recent pay in the media won’t help his case this time around. I do appreciate the sense of injustice amongst QF frontline staff constantly under pressure to do more with less, and then at EBA time restricted growth or more productivity requests when AJ keeps his income growing without that pressure.

Separately I wonder the impact to any additional 789 being ordered. I’m sure 789 and 350-9 are in discussion with both carriers. But if PS is delayed, or even canned- QF needs more 789 to make HND/JNB/YVR work, not to mention over the long term make MEL/BNE-SFO, and ORD daily. And order for 350-9 could help shuffle up and free some 789s up, as will JFK. But with no PS aircraft orders, a 789 order becomes more urgent.
 
Obzerva
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:09 am

qf2220 wrote:
getluv wrote:
Enhanced Frequent Flyer partnership between QF and AF/KL.


I might be late to the party but why were more expansive partnerships like this not entered into earlier (eg after the BA separation)? Given carriers in Europe have similar issues to QF/VA/NZ (ie the Asian and ME hub carrier cost advantage) more deals with the likes of LH, SAS and others could be handy no?

Also, perhaps this is a precursor to Paris/CDG flights - testing how much of a market there is for them?


Given the BA separation was the same time QF were throwing all their eggs in the DXB basket, doing deals on the side may not have instilled confidence.

The fact they’ve been codesharing with AF and then KL with the move back to SIN says they realise they needed to diversify.

From memory QF used to have a points earning deal with SAS but that’s been gone for a while now.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:37 am

smi0006 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
qf789 wrote:

That’s not what article says, it refers to both PER and BNE operating as non stops

The grammar is unclear and either interpretation could be made.

What is more news is that the business case is so marginal that it is still not ready to go to the BoD. AJ has gone back to Boeing and Airbus after price decreases but even that is hard to see overcoming such an issue. A price reduction of say $10M per plane approximates to a saving of $1667 per flight (assuming 20 years service with 300 flights per year). $1667 is only around 1.5 economy passengers so hardly significant. The issues appear to be whether the hardware actually exists to reliably complete these flights nonstop and whether customers will be prepared to pay a significant premium to save 3 hours. Unfortunately, the whole project has also got embroiled in a dispute with pilots, some of whom now feel they are being asked to take cuts to fund the project. The upside for the pilots with Sunrise is a bit hard to see so they have decided to play hardball.

Sunrise has been a trophy project for AJ but he is an accountant at heart and, if the numbers don't add up, he will walk away.


Indeed it’s an interesting article on many levels - light on sources from within QF, and would allude to some PR spin by the pilots. But AJ has clearly shown he will take the unions on. His recent pay in the media won’t help his case this time around. I do appreciate the sense of injustice amongst QF frontline staff constantly under pressure to do more with less, and then at EBA time restricted growth or more productivity requests when AJ keeps his income growing without that pressure.

Separately I wonder the impact to any additional 789 being ordered. I’m sure 789 and 350-9 are in discussion with both carriers. But if PS is delayed, or even canned- QF needs more 789 to make HND/JNB/YVR work, not to mention over the long term make MEL/BNE-SFO, and ORD daily. And order for 350-9 could help shuffle up and free some 789s up, as will JFK. But with no PS aircraft orders, a 789 order becomes more urgent.


There would be some extra 789s needed to make MEL/BNE to SFO daily. In addition, there would need to be a decision on the future of the 2x MEL-LAX 789 frequencies as part of the QF/AA JV.

As for the LHR slots, IIRC QF has 4 slot pairs and is currently using 3 with 1 pair leased to BA. This makes separate BNE and PER flights to LHR very unlikely. 2 of those slots would be required for the "Sunrise" non stops from SYD and MEL, the A380 ex SYD via SIN and a suggested rebranded "BNE-PER-LHR" with BNE replacing the MEL tag.

Of course all current AU-SIN flights from other cities would have timed flights into SIN to connect to the SIN-LHR A380 service.
 
Captdasbomb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:49 am

tullamarine wrote:
qf789 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Interestingly the article suggests the same aircraft would be used on the BNE/PER to LHR.

Probably would suggest that the current MEL-PER-LHR would become MEL-LHR and BNE-PER-LHR if/should Project Sunrise become reality.


That’s not what article says, it refers to both PER and BNE operating as non stops

The grammar is unclear and either interpretation could be made.

What is more news is that the business case is so marginal that it is still not ready to go to the BoD. AJ has gone back to Boeing and Airbus after price decreases but even that is hard to see overcoming such an issue. A price reduction of say $10M per plane approximates to a saving of $1667 per flight (assuming 20 years service with 300 flights per year). $1667 is only around 1.5 economy passengers so hardly significant. The issues appear to be whether the hardware actually exists to reliably complete these flights nonstop and whether customers will be prepared to pay a significant premium to save 3 hours. Unfortunately, the whole project has also got embroiled in a dispute with pilots, some of whom now feel they are being asked to take cuts to fund the project. The upside for the pilots with Sunrise is a bit hard to see so they have decided to play hardball.

Sunrise has been a trophy project for AJ but he is an accountant at heart and, if the numbers don't add up, he will walk away.


If AJ walks away it will be a small victory to the Pilots & egg on his face. Playing hard ball with the Union hasn’t worked as the previous pro-AJ Union Reps got booted out. Pretty sure even February is a bit far fetched for a new EBA.
London & New York are generally leisure destinations for the average Qantas customer hence the business case for a premium heavy PS with current options not stacking up.
Although the upgraded standard A350-1000 being offered by Airbus sounds reasonable to add to the fleet as a long term replacement for the A380s if Sunrise doesn’t work. A streamlined fleet of 789-9 & A3500-1000 for Qantas International make business cents
 
jrfspa320
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:49 am

SCFlyer wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
The grammar is unclear and either interpretation could be made.

What is more news is that the business case is so marginal that it is still not ready to go to the BoD. AJ has gone back to Boeing and Airbus after price decreases but even that is hard to see overcoming such an issue. A price reduction of say $10M per plane approximates to a saving of $1667 per flight (assuming 20 years service with 300 flights per year). $1667 is only around 1.5 economy passengers so hardly significant. The issues appear to be whether the hardware actually exists to reliably complete these flights nonstop and whether customers will be prepared to pay a significant premium to save 3 hours. Unfortunately, the whole project has also got embroiled in a dispute with pilots, some of whom now feel they are being asked to take cuts to fund the project. The upside for the pilots with Sunrise is a bit hard to see so they have decided to play hardball.

Sunrise has been a trophy project for AJ but he is an accountant at heart and, if the numbers don't add up, he will walk away.


Indeed it’s an interesting article on many levels - light on sources from within QF, and would allude to some PR spin by the pilots. But AJ has clearly shown he will take the unions on. His recent pay in the media won’t help his case this time around. I do appreciate the sense of injustice amongst QF frontline staff constantly under pressure to do more with less, and then at EBA time restricted growth or more productivity requests when AJ keeps his income growing without that pressure.

Separately I wonder the impact to any additional 789 being ordered. I’m sure 789 and 350-9 are in discussion with both carriers. But if PS is delayed, or even canned- QF needs more 789 to make HND/JNB/YVR work, not to mention over the long term make MEL/BNE-SFO, and ORD daily. And order for 350-9 could help shuffle up and free some 789s up, as will JFK. But with no PS aircraft orders, a 789 order becomes more urgent.


There would be some extra 789s needed to make MEL/BNE to SFO daily. In addition, there would need to be a decision on the future of the 2x MEL-LAX 789 frequencies as part of the QF/AA JV.

As for the LHR slots, IIRC QF has 4 slot pairs and is currently using 3 with 1 pair leased to BA. This makes separate BNE and PER flights to LHR very unlikely. 2 of those slots would be required for the "Sunrise" non stops from SYD and MEL, the A380 ex SYD via SIN and a suggested rebranded "BNE-PER-LHR" with BNE replacing the MEL tag.

Of course all current AU-SIN flights from other cities would have timed flights into SIN to connect to the SIN-LHR A380 service.


QF is currently using 2/4 slots for the QF2 and QF10. My personal view is more around the (premium) demand for daily LHR out of fragmented ports. I can see SYD and MEL being viable, and PER with a smaller aircraft (789) and connection demand onto ADL/CBR/DRW etc, however i think BNE has the lowest LHR traffic of all four main ports, and unlike PER cant be flown with a 789.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:53 am

smi0006 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
qf789 wrote:

That’s not what article says, it refers to both PER and BNE operating as non stops

The grammar is unclear and either interpretation could be made.

What is more news is that the business case is so marginal that it is still not ready to go to the BoD. AJ has gone back to Boeing and Airbus after price decreases but even that is hard to see overcoming such an issue. A price reduction of say $10M per plane approximates to a saving of $1667 per flight (assuming 20 years service with 300 flights per year). $1667 is only around 1.5 economy passengers so hardly significant. The issues appear to be whether the hardware actually exists to reliably complete these flights nonstop and whether customers will be prepared to pay a significant premium to save 3 hours. Unfortunately, the whole project has also got embroiled in a dispute with pilots, some of whom now feel they are being asked to take cuts to fund the project. The upside for the pilots with Sunrise is a bit hard to see so they have decided to play hardball.

Sunrise has been a trophy project for AJ but he is an accountant at heart and, if the numbers don't add up, he will walk away.


Indeed it’s an interesting article on many levels - light on sources from within QF, and would allude to some PR spin by the pilots. But AJ has clearly shown he will take the unions on. His recent pay in the media won’t help his case this time around. I do appreciate the sense of injustice amongst QF frontline staff constantly under pressure to do more with less, and then at EBA time restricted growth or more productivity requests when AJ keeps his income growing without that pressure.

Separately I wonder the impact to any additional 789 being ordered. I’m sure 789 and 350-9 are in discussion with both carriers. But if PS is delayed, or even canned- QF needs more 789 to make HND/JNB/YVR work, not to mention over the long term make MEL/BNE-SFO, and ORD daily. And order for 350-9 could help shuffle up and free some 789s up, as will JFK. But with no PS aircraft orders, a 789 order becomes more urgent.

The union dispute may provide cover if Sunrise has to be canned. QF is very good at its PR so blaming the end of the experiment on recalcitrant unions may provide a gracious exit path.

It will be interesting to see whether QF order extra LH fleet or wait. They have been keen to maximise their fleet utilisation and sacrifice low yield cheap Y seats as necessary.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
moa999
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:54 am

The pilots lose if Sunrise doesn't occur.
Sunrise means QFi expansion which generally means faster promotions and commensurate pay packets.

Without it you might see a few more 787 orders to replace 330s, but I suspect little fleet growth.

And they'll try again for Sunrise when the 350neo is released in 2027-30.

qf2220 wrote:
I might be late to the party but why were more expansive partnerships like this not entered into earlier (eg after the BA separation)?


Probably because they entered into the deal with EK which gave them codeshares to pretty much every Euro destination and swung QF planes to DXB.

The shift of more QF metal back to SIN, means it makes sense for more codeshares with carriers flying there.
 
81819
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:11 am

tullamarine wrote:
qf789 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Interestingly the article suggests the same aircraft would be used on the BNE/PER to LHR.

Probably would suggest that the current MEL-PER-LHR would become MEL-LHR and BNE-PER-LHR if/should Project Sunrise become reality.


That’s not what article says, it refers to both PER and BNE operating as non stops

The grammar is unclear and either interpretation could be made.

What is more news is that the business case is so marginal that it is still not ready to go to the BoD. AJ has gone back to Boeing and Airbus after price decreases but even that is hard to see overcoming such an issue. A price reduction of say $10M per plane approximates to a saving of $1667 per flight (assuming 20 years service with 300 flights per year). $1667 is only around 1.5 economy passengers so hardly significant. The issues appear to be whether the hardware actually exists to reliably complete these flights nonstop and whether customers will be prepared to pay a significant premium to save 3 hours. Unfortunately, the whole project has also got embroiled in a dispute with pilots, some of whom now feel they are being asked to take cuts to fund the project. The upside for the pilots with Sunrise is a bit hard to see so they have decided to play hardball.

Sunrise has been a trophy project for AJ but he is an accountant at heart and, if the numbers don't add up, he will walk away.


My thoughts as well. From where I sit the technology for these long distance flights is still......not quite there! I suspect these flights will require technology that not only makes these flights possible with an “economic” payload, but also shortens the travel time to less than the 19 hours.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:20 am

The pilots lose if Sunrise doesn't occur.
Sunrise means QFi expansion which generally means faster promotions and commensurate pay packets.

Visit some of the more pilot based sites and you will see this theory debunked, Whether it is true or not, I don't know and suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Pilots would argue they are being asked to fly longer stints on a smaller plane (salaries are typically tied to plane size) without a commensurate increase in salary and with reduced benefits (rest-times etc).
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getluv
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:48 am

Not all pilots, unionised pilots. People forget that Unions have a monetary incentive to keep negotiations going for as long as possible. In order to this they must continue to play hardball. No one looks good in an outcome of no Project Sunrise.

I'm sure the numbers do stack up for PS, its just that another 1% saving will go a long way.
I'm that bad type.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:22 am

smi0006 wrote:

Indeed it’s an interesting article on many levels - light on sources from within QF, and would allude to some PR spin by the pilots. But AJ has clearly shown he will take the unions on. His recent pay in the media won’t help his case this time around. I do appreciate the sense of injustice amongst QF frontline staff constantly under pressure to do more with less, and then at EBA time restricted growth or more productivity requests when AJ keeps his income growing without that pressure.

Separately I wonder the impact to any additional 789 being ordered. I’m sure 789 and 350-9 are in discussion with both carriers. But if PS is delayed, or even canned- QF needs more 789 to make HND/JNB/YVR work, not to mention over the long term make MEL/BNE-SFO, and ORD daily. And order for 350-9 could help shuffle up and free some 789s up, as will JFK. But with no PS aircraft orders, a 789 order becomes more urgent.


What about the impact on the domestic shorthaul fleet renewal? QF wanted PS finished this year so the resources on that could work on the shorthaul fleet renewal. You would expect that will probably be delayed. Can we also expect the 744's to stay longer as well? Without PS more 789's are going to have to be ordered, on top of what has been mentioned they could also still be looking at MEL-DFW, SEA from either SYD or BNE, then there is those European routes PER-CDG and PER-FRA. Also going off what AJ earlier this year (back in March), he did make mention PER-LHR could go double daily so that's also another option. Then there are A330's which need to be replaced in the next few years. The delay of PS is just going to have a domino effect on the rest of the fleet
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smi0006
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:36 am

qf789 wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

Indeed it’s an interesting article on many levels - light on sources from within QF, and would allude to some PR spin by the pilots. But AJ has clearly shown he will take the unions on. His recent pay in the media won’t help his case this time around. I do appreciate the sense of injustice amongst QF frontline staff constantly under pressure to do more with less, and then at EBA time restricted growth or more productivity requests when AJ keeps his income growing without that pressure.

Separately I wonder the impact to any additional 789 being ordered. I’m sure 789 and 350-9 are in discussion with both carriers. But if PS is delayed, or even canned- QF needs more 789 to make HND/JNB/YVR work, not to mention over the long term make MEL/BNE-SFO, and ORD daily. And order for 350-9 could help shuffle up and free some 789s up, as will JFK. But with no PS aircraft orders, a 789 order becomes more urgent.


What about the impact on the domestic shorthaul fleet renewal? QF wanted PS finished this year so the resources on that could work on the shorthaul fleet renewal. You would expect that will probably be delayed. Can we also expect the 744's to stay longer as well? Without PS more 789's are going to have to be ordered, on top of what has been mentioned they could also still be looking at MEL-DFW, SEA from either SYD or BNE, then there is those European routes PER-CDG and PER-FRA. Also going off what AJ earlier this year (back in March), he did make mention PER-LHR could go double daily so that's also another option. Then there are A330's which need to be replaced in the next few years. The delay of PS is just going to have a domino effect on the rest of the fleet


Agreed - much larger strategic impact.with many moving parts at Boeing too, as I feel 797s would be a discussion point for QF. I just can’t see this failing. But I do see AJ using many levers to pull to balance a whole deck of cards. He needs to be very careful with employee engagement, I think he may have pushed the boundaries with many frontline groups.
 
moa999
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:04 am

qf789 wrote:
What about the impact on the domestic shorthaul fleet renewal? ... Can we also expect the 744's to stay longer as well? Without PS more 789's are going to have to be ordered... Then there are A330's which need to be replaced in the next few years.


The 744s were due to be replaced by the three 787s delivered Nov/Dec and the three more due mid 2020, albeit with a small reduction in pax numbers. Without Sunrise making a point of difference, I just don't see much growth in QFi.

Would think domestic renewal is a very separate project, and with the MOM looking less likely, the MAX issues and the existing 321XLR order (for delivery from 2024), I can only see 320s in the lead.

Apart from the four oldest 332s, think all the other 330s probably have 5+ years.
 
QF742
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:38 am

QF have announced a new 4 weekly Mildura - SYD service and 3 additional weekly Bendigo - SYD services.

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... e-flights/

Particularly glad to see things are going well for the Bendigo route!
 
lessredtape
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:39 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
$21 an hour is rediculously low. That's basically the same as what Coles or Woolworths pay for an store hand or service team member.


they knew the pay rates going in

better than $0 an hour.

No one should ever strike in a recession.

Airlines are being hit particularly hard.

Union leaders are obviously not very bright.
 
tmwj1
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:42 am

getluv wrote:
Not all pilots, unionised pilots. People forget that Unions have a monetary incentive to keep negotiations going for as long as possible. In order to this they must continue to play hardball. No one looks good in an outcome of no Project Sunrise.

I'm sure the numbers do stack up for PS, its just that another 1% saving will go a long way.


What’s the rationale in doing that? Why would the union have monetary incentives to drag out contract negotiations?
 
lessredtape
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:44 am

SCFlyer wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

In late August/early September most people won't even notice. It's a seasonal reduction to cover maintenance in low season. There really isn't much to discuss.
no business type wants to go via another OZ city to get to LAX. Via AKL or NAN is still popular with leisure crowd.?


Edit: With the exception of ULCCs/Charters, virtually no long-haul airline are interested in the 1-stop "leisure crowd" routes as it's "low yielding", has increased operating costs and there's not much money to be made from those low yielding routes.
then how come NZ pull many Australians onto their flights via AKL to YVR, SFO, LAX & soon EWR, many of them business types.
 
Captdasbomb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:10 am

tullamarine wrote:
The pilots lose if Sunrise doesn't occur.
Sunrise means QFi expansion which generally means faster promotions and commensurate pay packets.

Visit some of the more pilot based sites and you will see this theory debunked, Whether it is true or not, I don't know and suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Pilots would argue they are being asked to fly longer stints on a smaller plane (salaries are typically tied to plane size) without a commensurate increase in salary and with reduced benefits (rest-times etc).


Difference between 747 & 787 money wise is no big deal. With current minimum rest rules pilots on PS will only do 2 trips a in a 4week block with a productivity bonus if you go above the 75hrs block time. Most pilots would rather not as they are already guaranteed the 75 hours whether they fly or not. As for promotions I wouldn’t count on it as a tonne of second officers will be coming out of the 2 flight schools from mid 2020. Will be 12 years at least to get a sniff of Captaincy
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:15 am

lessredtape wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
no business type wants to go via another OZ city to get to LAX. Via AKL or NAN is still popular with leisure crowd.?


Edit: With the exception of ULCCs/Charters, virtually no long-haul airline are interested in the 1-stop "leisure crowd" routes as it's "low yielding", has increased operating costs and there's not much money to be made from those low yielding routes.
then how come NZ pull many Australians onto their flights via AKL to YVR, SFO, LAX & soon EWR, many of them business types.


Most of those travellers via NZ are low yielding/VFR/Budget Travellers. Little to no money to be made out of that market for full service carriers.

Not many business (or high yielding flexible price) types are willing to go 1-stop unless if that's the only option (which in the case of EWR, that's the only option).
I wouldn't be surprised if the business travellers via NZ are mostly "FF redemptions" or "budget fare" business, which in that case not ideal from a yield perspective.
 
qf2048
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:21 am

QF742 wrote:
QF have announced a new 4 weekly Mildura - SYD service and 3 additional weekly Bendigo - SYD services.

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... e-flights/

Particularly glad to see things are going well for the Bendigo route!


I think ZL were operating this route until recently. With the Q300's coming back from JQ New Zealand this might allow for some reshuffling of frames to make this route possible. Great to see QF starting some of these non traditional routes. Hope to see more of them!
ZL,QF,KE,BA,AS,CX,FR,U2,W6,EI,IB,JL,AY,LH,AA,AC,FQ,DJ,JQ,LA,FJ,QS,NZ,NF,SB,PG,EK,AB,VA,MH,KA,VN
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:19 am

VA and the LH Group Airlines had recently signed a interline agreement (i.e can be booked under the 1 booking). No codeshare/FF agreement as this is only interline.

https://www.roundabouttravel.com.au/new ... australia/
 
Obzerva
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:29 am

SCFlyer wrote:
VA and the LH Group Airlines had recently signed a interline agreement (i.e can be booked under the 1 booking). No codeshare/FF agreement as this is only interline.

https://www.roundabouttravel.com.au/new ... australia/


Strange, you could always book QF on a LH ticket to get you to Asia to then continue on to Europe, thought it was the case with LX and OS too.
 
smi0006
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:10 am

QF742 wrote:
QF have announced a new 4 weekly Mildura - SYD service and 3 additional weekly Bendigo - SYD services.

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... e-flights/

Particularly glad to see things are going well for the Bendigo route!


Sounds like a great route to Mildura! Be good to see more regional routes added
 
dredgy
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:13 am

Obzerva wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
VA and the LH Group Airlines had recently signed a interline agreement (i.e can be booked under the 1 booking). No codeshare/FF agreement as this is only interline.

https://www.roundabouttravel.com.au/new ... australia/


Strange, you could always book QF on a LH ticket to get you to Asia to then continue on to Europe, thought it was the case with LX and OS too.


Yes, I'd assume you still can. I book with roundabout and that's definitely an option, is just an interline. You're allowed to have multiple partners! Regardless of what my girlfriend says
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:40 am

Obzerva wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
VA and the LH Group Airlines had recently signed a interline agreement (i.e can be booked under the 1 booking). No codeshare/FF agreement as this is only interline.

https://www.roundabouttravel.com.au/new ... australia/


Strange, you could always book QF on a LH ticket to get you to Asia to then continue on to Europe, thought it was the case with LX and OS too.


The QF interline will continue. Lufthansa Group interline with practically everyone on Australia-Asia so this is just a natural progression. The choice of carriers and stopovers on an LH/LX/OS ticket is really, really broad. TK have even more options (including some oddballs like OD), but capture less of the market ex-AU than LH do. AF/KL also have a decent plethora of interline and connection options. BA only use OW carriers on the Australia-Asia leg (QF, CX, MH, JL) but within Asia interline with practically everyone and allow intra-Asia flights on the fare. If you are in the market for a SYD-HKG-HAN-BKK-LHR three-stopover option then I can all-but guarantee you that BA will be the best value option.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:49 am

Ive always thought that interlines are not much more than an travel agent agreement - do carriers get that narky if interlines are entered into with competitors?
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:28 am

Both Airbus and Boeing have handed in revised bids to Qantas though Qantas still has questions

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... nrise-bids
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:29 am

Perth Spotters alert. I could be wrong but ZNJ should drop in later this arvo en-route to London. Don’t recall ever seeing it at Gate 20
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:29 am

Today is 100 years since Ross and Keith Smith completed the first air journey between England and Australia in the Vickers Vimy.
The early bird catches the worm, the late bird will be featured on a You Tube video
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:36 am

Jetstar is considering flight cancellations in January as it deals with pilot strikes. Pilots will walk off the job this weekend for 4 hours. A320/321 pilots will strike between 5 and 9am both Saturday and Sunday while 787 pilots will walk off the job between 1430 and 1830 on Saturday and 930 and 1330 on Sunday. Ground crews are also expected to stop work for 2 hours this Friday, times vary depending on the port but include SYD, MEL, BNE, ADL, CNS and AVV

https://www.watoday.com.au/business/com ... 53ig2.html
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:38 am

Captdasbomb wrote:
Perth Spotters alert. I could be wrong but ZNJ should drop in later this arvo en-route to London. Don’t recall ever seeing it at Gate 20


Its about time. I will be at work this afternoon so hopefully I can see it come in
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:39 am

Captdasbomb wrote:
Perth Spotters alert. I could be wrong but ZNJ should drop in later this arvo en-route to London. Don’t recall ever seeing it at Gate 20

Yes this will be ZNJ's first trip to anywhere but HKG since arrival in Australia.


brucetiki wrote:
Today is 100 years since Ross and Keith Smith completed the first air journey between England and Australia in the Vickers Vimy.

A coincidence with the above trip by ZNJ to London today?? :)
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:40 am

Captdasbomb wrote:
Perth Spotters alert. I could be wrong but ZNJ should drop in later this arvo en-route to London. Don’t recall ever seeing it at Gate 20


Its about time. I will be at work this afternoon, providing Im not dealing with another aircraft I will be watching it come in
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:42 am

qf789 wrote:
Captdasbomb wrote:
Perth Spotters alert. I could be wrong but ZNJ should drop in later this arvo en-route to London. Don’t recall ever seeing it at Gate 20


Its about time. I will be at work this afternoon so hopefully I can see it come in


Hopefully there’s still enough daylight to see a twilight take off
 
Captdasbomb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:44 am

Dan23 wrote:
Captdasbomb wrote:
Perth Spotters alert. I could be wrong but ZNJ should drop in later this arvo en-route to London. Don’t recall ever seeing it at Gate 20

Yes this will be ZNJ's first trip to anywhere but HKG since arrival in Australia.


brucetiki wrote:
Today is 100 years since Ross and Keith Smith completed the first air journey between England and Australia in the Vickers Vimy.

A coincidence with the above trip by ZNJ to London today?? :)


Got to love a well oiled PR machine
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:52 am

smi0006 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
ArtV wrote:

Aircraft constraints? They would need to pull the HKG-SYD 330 in order to operate, which is unlikely with the VS link up and they have just pulled HKG-MEL


No they wouldn't, as I have said previously many times VA has operated trans con flights with 3 frames for a good part of this year. VA can operate PER-JNB without pulling SYD-HKG, a few tweeks to scheduling may happen but it can be done. Alternatively VA could try and source a couple more A332's, if SA does go belly up they could take on a couple of their A332's


For a company in such poor performance would be a big gamble to launch PER-JNB and HND. Big gambles but could pay off.... especially if SA feed ex-JNB dries up. At least QF would have BA. QF could also equally apply a lot of pressure easily to force them off the route.


Having also seen how many passengers VA put onto SA from the likes of ADL, MEL, SYD and BNE there is definitely a market there if VA wanted to pursue it. Also what I have also noticed the majority of passengers are also connecting at JNB, very few have JNB as their final destination
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lessredtape
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:00 am

SCFlyer wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:

Edit: With the exception of ULCCs/Charters, virtually no long-haul airline are interested in the 1-stop "leisure crowd" routes as it's "low yielding", has increased operating costs and there's not much money to be made from those low yielding routes.
then how come NZ pull many Australians onto their flights via AKL to YVR, SFO, LAX & soon EWR, many of them business types.


Most of those travellers via NZ are low yielding/VFR/Budget Travellers. Little to no money to be made out of that market for full service carriers.

Not many business (or high yielding flexible price) types are willing to go 1-stop unless if that's the only option (which in the case of EWR, that's the only option).
I wouldn't be surprised if the business travellers via NZ are mostly "FF redemptions" or "budget fare" business, which in that case not ideal from a yield perspective.
Hardly. Lots of business travelllers fly NZ to USA/Canada from OZ esp from OOL, ADL but surprisingly from BNE & MEL as well.

Maybe they're kiwis or maybe they just like NZ for some strange reason.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:02 am

Top 20 routes for Singapore Airlines for the past year, with 10 of them being from Australia

They include

SYD-LHR
MEL-LHR
BNE-LHR
PER-LHR
SYD-DEL
MEL-DEL
BNE-DEL
SYD-BOM
PER-SGN
SYD-CMB

Image

https://twitter.com/annaaero/status/120 ... 81441?s=20
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:08 am

Jetstar has had an IT outage this morning causing delays throughout the network

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... d7297956e0
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Captdasbomb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:22 am

qf789 wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
qf789 wrote:

No they wouldn't, as I have said previously many times VA has operated trans con flights with 3 frames for a good part of this year. VA can operate PER-JNB without pulling SYD-HKG, a few tweeks to scheduling may happen but it can be done. Alternatively VA could try and source a couple more A332's, if SA does go belly up they could take on a couple of their A332's


For a company in such poor performance would be a big gamble to launch PER-JNB and HND. Big gambles but could pay off.... especially if SA feed ex-JNB dries up. At least QF would have BA. QF could also equally apply a lot of pressure easily to force them off the route.


Having also seen how many passengers VA put onto SA from the likes of ADL, MEL, SYD and BNE there is definitely a market there if VA wanted to pursue it. Also what I have also noticed the majority of passengers are also connecting at JNB, very few have JNB as their final destination


There’s probably more pax to Harare/Lusaka than JNB on SAA281. EK has a daily Dubai-Harare via Lusaka & apparently very popular despite the long way round loop. Rumor has it Ethiopia is negotiating to by a stake in SAA but am suprised they didn’t put a nail in their coffin by launching a daily service out of Australia. Hopefully Perth gets an upgrade to the A350 sooner rather than later
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:49 am

qf789 wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
qf789 wrote:

No they wouldn't, as I have said previously many times VA has operated trans con flights with 3 frames for a good part of this year. VA can operate PER-JNB without pulling SYD-HKG, a few tweeks to scheduling may happen but it can be done. Alternatively VA could try and source a couple more A332's, if SA does go belly up they could take on a couple of their A332's


For a company in such poor performance would be a big gamble to launch PER-JNB and HND. Big gambles but could pay off.... especially if SA feed ex-JNB dries up. At least QF would have BA. QF could also equally apply a lot of pressure easily to force them off the route.


Having also seen how many passengers VA put onto SA from the likes of ADL, MEL, SYD and BNE there is definitely a market there if VA wanted to pursue it. Also what I have also noticed the majority of passengers are also connecting at JNB, very few have JNB as their final destination


Indeed it’s an interesting one; I think QF or VA could go daily to JNB daily with a 330. Especially if SYD-JNB went daily with a 789 at some-point. I could also PER-CPT 3weekly maybe in summer too?
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:50 am

qf789 wrote:
Jetstar has had an IT outage this morning causing delays throughout the network

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... d7297956e0


Not a good day with global SITA APP outage still also ongoing impacting all carriers globally with hit and miss approvals from governments to disable APP.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:04 am

qf789 wrote:
Top 20 routes for Singapore Airlines for the past year, with 10 of them being from Australia

They include

SYD-LHR
MEL-LHR
BNE-LHR
PER-LHR
SYD-DEL
MEL-DEL
BNE-DEL
SYD-BOM
PER-SGN
SYD-CMB

Image

https://twitter.com/annaaero/status/120 ... 81441?s=20

And although a bit off topic, they also have 10 routes involving Indonesia

Funny fact is the routes that doesn't touch Australia touches Indonesia, literally....

No wonder why so many people joked that SQ is the national carrier of Indonesia.

Michael
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:35 am

Etihad plans to codeshare on VA's flight to Vanuatu

https://twitter.com/Airlineroute/status ... 41217?s=20
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:53 am

From mid 2020 SYD says it will target unserved markets and new medium size O & D markets. Possibilities include

Asia - BOM, HYD, MAA, BLR, HYD. CMB, DAC, KTM, AMD, SHE, TSN, PUS, PNH, USM and LHE

Americas - SEA, LAS, YYC, GRU, EZE

Africa - CPT

Europe - TLV, IST

https://blueswandaily.com/sydney-airpor ... s-in-2020/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 20-462754/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:59 am

Pilbara Airlines plans to acquire 2 A320's to operate services to SIN in late 2020/early 2021. Will use KTA as primary base for international flights vs PHE as previously planned. Has previously touted flights to MNL and Vietnam

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... um=twitter
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:09 am

Qatar says it is optimistic about the CBR market

https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/ ... rra-route/

Also when bilaterals are increased, BNE will be launched whenever that may be
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moa999
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:20 am

eamondzhang wrote:
No wonder why so many people joked that SQ is the national carrier of Indonesia.


Not really a surprise.. it was a list of connecting flights.
Singapore can only real connect Australia, Indonesia, NZ and PNG to points North without adding journey time.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:34 am

qf789 wrote:
From mid 2020 SYD says it will target unserved markets and new medium size O & D markets. Possibilities include

Asia - BOM, HYD, MAA, BLR, HYD. CMB, DAC, KTM, AMD, SHE, TSN, PUS, PNH, USM and LHE

Americas - SEA, LAS, YYC, GRU, EZE

Africa - CPT

Europe - TLV, IST

https://blueswandaily.com/sydney-airpor ... s-in-2020/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 20-462754/

The list is just a grab-bag of destinations. It always amazes me that airports think they can target new routes. Usually it is smaller cities like ADL and CBR doing this but SYD has joined in. It is a demand industry and it is the airlines and ultimately consumer demand that will generate new routes.

US and Asia flights typically arrive into SYD in the early morning (before 9AM) where there are currently virtually no available slots or gates.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1884
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:24 am

tullamarine wrote:
qf789 wrote:
From mid 2020 SYD says it will target unserved markets and new medium size O & D markets. Possibilities include

Asia - BOM, HYD, MAA, BLR, HYD. CMB, DAC, KTM, AMD, SHE, TSN, PUS, PNH, USM and LHE

Americas - SEA, LAS, YYC, GRU, EZE

Africa - CPT

Europe - TLV, IST

https://blueswandaily.com/sydney-airpor ... s-in-2020/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 20-462754/

The list is just a grab-bag of destinations. It always amazes me that airports think they can target new routes. Usually it is smaller cities like ADL and CBR doing this but SYD has joined in. It is a demand industry and it is the airlines and ultimately consumer demand that will generate new routes.

US and Asia flights typically arrive into SYD in the early morning (before 9AM) where there are currently virtually no available slots or gates.

Not to mention those Asian destinations - BOM, CMB maybe, but SHE/TSN/PNH/PUS and especially USM? You gotta be kidding me.

USM with a 2100m runway and SYD airport is targeting a direct flight to there? One'd better fire the people who initiated these nonsense.

Michael

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