Welcome to New Zealand Aviation Thread - December 2019. Please continue to add your comments below

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Qasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2019/11/nelson-woman-takes-air-new-zealand-to-court-for-banning-her-from-flying.html

I'm not sure if this was posted last week or not...

'Grumpy' or 'Unhappy' customers are a day to day thing in any service industry... I'd love to know what the lady is has been saying, surely it's about what and how much was said and not so much about how it was said.

NZ has plenty of 'regular' complainers, I've seen on plenty of occasions the airline respond along the lines of... this is the answer now it's over to you to accept it or you're welcome to take your business elsewhere as we're not getting into any further debate over it. Well, a much more PC approach than those words.

We don't know both sides of the storey in detail however I'm pleased the airline stood up and made a stance to that arrogant and thankfully small section of society who believe the customer is right and therefore they can treat employees however they want and get away with it! Essentially bully them!

Agree, however this story concerns me:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/new ... d=12289148

The customer was not racist, he simply wished to be addressed in English as is his right. NZ's response was anything but "hilarious". Online trolling and bullying of one's customers isn't smart, and I'm surprised the New Zealand Herald's tone condone's it.

I totally agree with you, I mean, her response of "I'm not Maori" is a very narrow-minded and slightly racist view and while the airline has service standards that say you must address people for the first time with Kia Ora ...(there are a few exceptions) that's not per problem.

But what's the harm in just embracing the culture and ultimately why comment? It happens elsewhere too, doesn't the TV news start with a Maori greeting? well, at least some of the time? 20/20 or 60 minutes does as well. There are a few examples.

But what a risk calling her out on it...

It seems to have won public support which is I guess positive PR for the airline. Especially within the Maori communities.

I'm sure the unnamed person (I'm not going to use her name) has been completely belittled by the airline for, in simple terms, telling them she doesn't want to be addressed in another language. Right or wrong she's the customer and she wasn't rude or insulting with it but she has now been published on all major media outlets and been labelled racist among other things.

To add further weight to looking after her, she was asking about the WLG Koru Lounge so she's an HVC member Koru at minimum.

The NZ social media response is similar (albeit milder) to typical liberal activist rhetoric used to scream people down, ostracize and.apply peer pressure by manipulating social media opinion to trial and convict/fire anyone with differing opinion. The correct response was to use Kia Ora first as is normal for the company, but to respond to the request to be addressed in English and move on with life without the virtual signaling. What if the request had been for German or Cantonese or the other official language of NZ. Sign Language?? Would they have banned this person for abuse of staff if they had not responded as civilly ?? The fact of the matter is it wouldn't even have held up against internal protocol for bullying and professional conduct in the work place.

I do not think it was racist, slightly ignorant perhaps and it undermines actual racism to label it as such. If I had been the person I would have responded with something like "Do you always harass and bully your customers like this?

I posted late in the November thread but will post again.

HKG 789 from NS20 rather than NW20/21
EZE stays 772 into NS20 instead of 789 from FEB, it looks to change later in the season
DPS 772 ops is interesting maybe part of a reconfiguration to more dense cabin?

NZ6 wrote:

I totally agree with you, I mean, her response of "I'm not Maori"

A slightly provocative response, sure. A simple "could you address me in English please" might have been better.

NZ6 wrote:

while the airline has service standards that say you must address people for the first time with Kia Ora ...(there are a few exceptions)

Does it? I had no idea.

NZ6 wrote:

But what's the harm in just embracing the culture and ultimately why comment?

Because when it's forced it creates resentment, and generates responses like the one we're discussing. I would vigorously defend the right of those interested to embrace Maori culture as much as they want to, but not everyone is one of them. And actually, that's ok.

NZ6 wrote:

It seems to have won public support which is I guess positive PR for the airline. Especially within the Maori communities.

I doubt it. People who aren't smart enough to see bullying for what it is are unlikely to be the sort of people currently online looking for J Class options to ORD.

NZ6 wrote:

I'm sure the unnamed person (I'm not going to use her name) has been completely belittled by the airline for, in simple terms, telling them she doesn't want to be addressed in another language. Right or wrong she's the customer and she wasn't rude or insulting with it but she has now been published on all major media outlets and been labelled racist among other things.

To add further weight to looking after her, she was asking about the WLG Koru Lounge so she's an HVC member Koru at minimum.

Yes, a really dumb move. Trolling and embarrassing your high value customers is neither nice, nor smart - even if they are at odds with one's own view of the world.

ZK-NBT wrote:

I posted late in the November thread but will post again.

HKG 789 from NS20 rather than NW20/21
EZE stays 772 into NS20 instead of 789 from FEB, it looks to change later in the season
DPS 772 ops is interesting maybe part of a reconfiguration to more dense cabin?

787 shortage due RR engine problems (relates more to cycles rather than hours). A bit of spare 77E capacity available so 77E is being put mostly onto shorter routes (eg DPS, HNL) and Tasman returns etc.
as for EZE, ongoing ETOPS requirements etc being or at risk of being affected by 787 engine issues means 77E stays on it. Safety first.

aerorobnz wrote:

The NZ social media response is similar (albeit milder) to typical liberal activist rhetoric used to scream people down, ostracize and.apply peer pressure by manipulating social media opinion to trial and convict/fire anyone with differing opinion. The correct response was to use Kia Ora first as is normal for the company, but to respond to the request to be addressed in English and move on with life without the virtual signaling. What if the request had been for German or Cantonese or the other official language of NZ. Sign Language?? Would they have banned this person for abuse of staff if they had not responded as civilly ?? The fact of the matter is it wouldn't even have held up against internal protocol for bullying and professional conduct in the work place.

I do not think it was racist, slightly ignorant perhaps and it undermines actual racism to label it as such. If I had been the person I would have responded with something like "Do you always harass and bully your customers like this?

Yip, it's also a big fat up yours to the customer. Some people don't like being addressed in another language, Maori or other... That is not racism that's personal preference and standards they hold for themself.

If I was her, I'd be mightly pissed off not just for the public humiliation but also for completely ignoring my wishes not to be addressed or spoken to in another language.

I really like how as a country we've embraced our indigenous language and how's it being incorporated into an everyday living but we also need to respect those who aren't on this page yet and not label differences of opinion/preference racism.

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

I totally agree with you, I mean, her response of "I'm not Maori"

A slightly provocative response, sure. A simple "could you address me in English please" might have been better.

Oh, absolutely she's not exactly worded the most 'PC' response especially given it's always going to be a sensitive topic. But did they need to bite?

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

while the airline has service standards that say you must address people for the first time with Kia Ora ...(there are a few exceptions)

Does it? I had no idea.

Yes, you can see it all over the place, it should be when you're welcomed on board, into the lounge and some inflight PA's, all written correspondence. eDM's letters etc and when you phone in. I'm not going to say it happens 100% of the time as that's consistency in service which NZ isn't always that great at.

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

But what's the harm in just embracing the culture and ultimately why comment?

Because when it's forced it creates resentment, and generates responses like the one we're discussing. I would vigorously defend the right of those interested to embrace Maori culture as much as they want to, but not everyone is one of them. And actually, that's ok.

Hmmm, I accept why and that she shouldn't be addressed in another language but in what was a very short post and in social media... was it a wise reply?

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

It seems to have won public support which is I guess positive PR for the airline. Especially within the Maori communities.

I doubt it. People who aren't smart enough to see bullying for what it is are unlikely to be the sort of people currently online looking for J Class options to ORD.

Have you read the comments of support? The media headlines along the lines of 'air NZ trolls racist customer'... I'm not sure if worked out well for her.

There seems to be a huge decline in traffic to HKG due to current situation. Going to HKG costs less than $1200 return for Chinese New Year on NZ, would cost a lot more in previous years. Wondering if the move to 789 for HKG would be “permanent”?

cchan wrote:

There seems to be a huge decline in traffic to HKG due to current situation. Going to HKG costs less than $1200 return for Chinese New Year on NZ, would cost a lot more in previous years. Wondering if the move to 789 for HKG would be “permanent”?

Probably, but as the 787 seems to be an aircraft tailor made for NZ's medium to long haul routes I'd say it would have happened anyway sooner rather than later.

Zkpilot wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

I posted late in the November thread but will post again.

HKG 789 from NS20 rather than NW20/21
EZE stays 772 into NS20 instead of 789 from FEB, it looks to change later in the season
DPS 772 ops is interesting maybe part of a reconfiguration to more dense cabin?

787 shortage due RR engine problems (relates more to cycles rather than hours). A bit of spare 77E capacity available so 77E is being put mostly onto shorter routes (eg DPS, HNL) and Tasman returns etc.
as for EZE, ongoing ETOPS requirements etc being or at risk of being affected by 787 engine issues means 77E stays on it. Safety first.[/quote

Interesting, the reason I thought it may have been a possible 772 reconfiguration for a few frames was because it was mentioned that there was a further large increase in capacity to DPS to be announced, it looks like EZE is scheduled to change mid year to 789.

As to HKG, It was meant to change in OCT 2020, but now March, no idea if its code 1 or code 2 but should atleast lower the operating costs significantly on a route currently under pressure.

China Eastern increases AKL-PVG from 7 to 11 weekly, 16 Jan - 15 Feb 20

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... xpansions/

NZ6 wrote:

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

I totally agree with you, I mean, her response of "I'm not Maori"

A slightly provocative response, sure. A simple "could you address me in English please" might have been better.

Oh, absolutely she's not exactly worded the most 'PC' response especially given it's always going to be a sensitive topic. But did they need to bite?

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

while the airline has service standards that say you must address people for the first time with Kia Ora ...(there are a few exceptions)

Does it? I had no idea.

Yes, you can see it all over the place, it should be when you're welcomed on board, into the lounge and some inflight PA's, all written correspondence. eDM's letters etc and when you phone in. I'm not going to say it happens 100% of the time as that's consistency in service which NZ isn't always that great at.

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

But what's the harm in just embracing the culture and ultimately why comment?

Because when it's forced it creates resentment, and generates responses like the one we're discussing. I would vigorously defend the right of those interested to embrace Maori culture as much as they want to, but not everyone is one of them. And actually, that's ok.

Hmmm, I accept why and that she shouldn't be addressed in another language but in what was a very short post and in social media... was it a wise reply?

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

It seems to have won public support which is I guess positive PR for the airline. Especially within the Maori communities.

I doubt it. People who aren't smart enough to see bullying for what it is are unlikely to be the sort of people currently online looking for J Class options to ORD.

Have you read the comments of support? The media headlines along the lines of 'air NZ trolls racist customer'... I'm not sure if worked out well for her.

It's a tricky one isn't it?
but chances are.. there is history with this customer.
you know..'the Prince Andrew entitlement' kind of stuff.
sooner or later NZ staff, fed up with this person would
react in this way.
Being that I think this is the case, I support the NZ reaction.

NZ6 wrote:

aerorobnz wrote:

The NZ social media response is similar (albeit milder) to typical liberal activist rhetoric used to scream people down, ostracize and.apply peer pressure by manipulating social media opinion to trial and convict/fire anyone with differing opinion. The correct response was to use Kia Ora first as is normal for the company, but to respond to the request to be addressed in English and move on with life without the virtual signaling. What if the request had been for German or Cantonese or the other official language of NZ. Sign Language?? Would they have banned this person for abuse of staff if they had not responded as civilly ?? The fact of the matter is it wouldn't even have held up against internal protocol for bullying and professional conduct in the work place.

I do not think it was racist, slightly ignorant perhaps and it undermines actual racism to label it as such. If I had been the person I would have responded with something like "Do you always harass and bully your customers like this?

Yip, it's also a big fat up yours to the customer. Some people don't like being addressed in another language, Maori or other... That is not racism that's personal preference and standards they hold for themself.

If I was her, I'd be mightly pissed off not just for the public humiliation but also for completely ignoring my wishes not to be addressed or spoken to in another language.

I really like how as a country we've embraced our indigenous language and how's it being incorporated into an everyday living but we also need to respect those who aren't on this page yet and not label differences of opinion/preference racism.

But it's not just "another language". It's one of our three official languages in New Zealand, which means you should expect to interact with it in everyday life and realise it is part of the way we communicate in our country, whether you like it or not. German or Cantonese is hardly a comparison.

Dupe sorry

Zkpilot wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

while the airline has service standards that say you must address people for the first time with Kia Ora ...(there are a few exceptions)

[quote=“NZ6”]
Yes, you can see it all over the place, it should be when you're welcomed on board, into the lounge and some inflight PA's, all written correspondence. eDM's letters etc and when you phone in. I'm not going to say it happens 100% of the time as that's consistency in service which NZ isn't always that great at.

It is expected to be used frequently and for PA’s but no, not every passenger to be greeted with Kia Ora as that is overusing it, too repetitive and not very personalised.[/quote]

backfiah wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

aerorobnz wrote:

The NZ social media response is similar (albeit milder) to typical liberal activist rhetoric used to scream people down, ostracize and.apply peer pressure by manipulating social media opinion to trial and convict/fire anyone with differing opinion. The correct response was to use Kia Ora first as is normal for the company, but to respond to the request to be addressed in English and move on with life without the virtual signaling. What if the request had been for German or Cantonese or the other official language of NZ. Sign Language?? Would they have banned this person for abuse of staff if they had not responded as civilly ?? The fact of the matter is it wouldn't even have held up against internal protocol for bullying and professional conduct in the work place.

I do not think it was racist, slightly ignorant perhaps and it undermines actual racism to label it as such. If I had been the person I would have responded with something like "Do you always harass and bully your customers like this?

Yip, it's also a big fat up yours to the customer. Some people don't like being addressed in another language, Maori or other... That is not racism that's personal preference and standards they hold for themself.

If I was her, I'd be mightly pissed off not just for the public humiliation but also for completely ignoring my wishes not to be addressed or spoken to in another language.

I really like how as a country we've embraced our indigenous language and how's it being incorporated into an everyday living but we also need to respect those who aren't on this page yet and not label differences of opinion/preference racism.

But it's not just "another language". It's one of our three official languages in New Zealand, which means you should expect to interact with it in everyday life and realise it is part of the way we communicate in our country, whether you like it or not. German or Cantonese is hardly a comparison.

Fun fact... english is the majority language of New Zealand, but Te Reo Maori and NZ Sign Language are our only official languages. Which is kinda weird, right?

But anyway, overall it seems like a bit of a nob move by NZ to effectively troll their own customers. If you expect customers to engage with you on social media you should a. Expect all sorts, b. maintain professionalism and c. actually give the customer the correct information. Note that on the latter, the NZ response was incorrect and had to be fixed. Amateur hour at NZ.

aerokiwi wrote:

backfiah wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

Yip, it's also a big fat up yours to the customer. Some people don't like being addressed in another language, Maori or other... That is not racism that's personal preference and standards they hold for themself.

If I was her, I'd be mightly pissed off not just for the public humiliation but also for completely ignoring my wishes not to be addressed or spoken to in another language.

I really like how as a country we've embraced our indigenous language and how's it being incorporated into an everyday living but we also need to respect those who aren't on this page yet and not label differences of opinion/preference racism.

But it's not just "another language". It's one of our three official languages in New Zealand, which means you should expect to interact with it in everyday life and realise it is part of the way we communicate in our country, whether you like it or not. German or Cantonese is hardly a comparison.

Fun fact... english is the majority language of New Zealand, but Te Reo Maori and NZ Sign Language are our only official languages. Which is kinda weird, right?

But anyway, overall it seems like a bit of a nob move by NZ to effectively troll their own customers. If you expect customers to engage with you on social media you should a. Expect all sorts, b. maintain professionalism and c. actually give the customer the correct information. Note that on the latter, the NZ response was incorrect and had to be fixed. Amateur hour at NZ.

Yes. I'm sure we'd all agree that we don't want to dive down the "what is the appropriate use of te Reo" rabbit hole right here and now; but NZ did demonstrate a distinct lack of professionalism. It's not hard to imagine what sort of person the social media portfolio gets delegated to in an institution like NZ; and we're seeing evidence of it come to the fore.

Deepinsider wrote:
What do you know about ZK-NZE, which although the prettiest 789, seems to be the 'fall guy' for the not enough
engines for everyone problem? Presumably, there is a big cost saving, say insurance, if one plane is temporarily
grounded, rather than some sort of rotation as engine availability comes and goes.

I don't know much on ZK-NZE just that it was planned to return to service over many different dates but due to on -going problems with engines this has been again pushed back could be in the early new year period now. I would expect they will still have insurance for it even if they expect to park it up for another six months for just in case scenario "of what if happens"

ZK-NBT wrote:

I posted late in the November thread but will post again.

HKG 789 from NS20 rather than NW20/21
EZE stays 772 into NS20 instead of 789 from FEB, it looks to change later in the season
DPS 772 ops is interesting maybe part of a reconfiguration to more dense cabin?

I also heard this from via cabin crew that DPS was changing to 772 next year and was told the 789s are needed on the longer sectors where their fuel savings over the 772 are much higher. So could see the 772 come off HKG and go on DPS they almost make a perfect swap schedule wise both leave late morning ex AKL. Also DPS would seem a more desirable holiday destination than HKG at the moment so demand could be greater hence the need for the swap.

The addition of AA competition on LAX-AKL has definitely driven prices down. I'm seeing as low as $795 USD in off-peak season.

NZ516 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

I posted late in the November thread but will post again.

HKG 789 from NS20 rather than NW20/21
EZE stays 772 into NS20 instead of 789 from FEB, it looks to change later in the season
DPS 772 ops is interesting maybe part of a reconfiguration to more dense cabin?

I also heard this from via cabin crew that DPS was changing to 772 next year and was told the 789s are needed on the longer sectors where their fuel savings over the 772 are much higher. So could see the 772 come off HKG and go on DPS they almost make a perfect swap schedule wise both leave late morning ex AKL. Also DPS would seem a more desirable holiday destination than HKG at the moment so demand could be greater hence the need for the swap.

Sorry I got halfway through that original post. DPS was always said to be a route that needed the 789s economics, there was talk a while back of a significant increase in capacity to DPS over what was already announced, the 772 offers more Premium seating and slightly less Y and a total of 312 seats vs 302 on the 789 code 1, maybe still more increases to be announced? The 772 fleet is only going to DPS/HNL/ some IAH, EZE until mid year sometime, and RAR-SYD, RAR-LAX at this stage which needs barely 4 of the 8 frames, they will likely cover some LAX/SFO at certain times aswell, I thought PER/NRT would be possible candidates aswell. Anyway probably some more tweaking to come. 789 Code 1 frames could be on

PER x7
SIN x7 night flight, doesn't fit in with anything else
HKG x7
NRT x7
PVG x7
ICN x3
TPE x3

6.5 frames or there abouts so say 7 allows 1 to be grounded and 1 getting cabin refurbs, EZE changes mid year at this stage so maybe all code 1 frames refurbed or back in service by then.

code 2

SIN x7
YVR x5-7
ORD x3

It looks like these will be out for engine checks 1 at a time from FEB and I'm guessing cabin refurb at the same time so probably only 4 of the 5 aircraft available for the whole NS.

NZ516 wrote:

I also heard this from via cabin crew that DPS was changing to 772 next year and was told the 789s are needed on the longer sectors where their fuel savings over the 772 are much higher. So could see the 772 come off HKG and go on DPS they almost make a perfect swap schedule wise both leave late morning ex AKL. Also DPS would seem a more desirable holiday destination than HKG at the moment so demand could be greater hence the need for the swap.

I posted a while ago DPS.

Part of the increase was up gauging to a 777 from the 787 but also an increase in frequency. Some of the capacity was going out off HNL with a few other changes.

The current 787 issues have slowed a few things down I believe.

ZK-NBT wrote:
The 772 fleet is only going to DPS/HNL/ some IAH, EZE until mid year sometime, and RAR-SYD, RAR-LAX at this stage which needs barely 4 of the 8 frames, they will likely cover some LAX/SFO at certain times aswell

There will be more 772 flying than 4 frames. AKL to CNS 3pw, AKL to RAR daily, AKL to TBU 2pw, AKL to SYD 3 of the 4 daily flights as 772 as well. Later on when NZ4 begins that will use 2 772s 5 days a week.

ZK-NBT wrote:
789 Code 1 frames could be on

PER x7
SIN x7 night flight, doesn't fit in with anything else
HKG x7
NRT x7
PVG x7
ICN x3
TPE x3

6.5 frames or there abouts so say 7 allows 1 to be grounded and 1 getting cabin refurbs, EZE changes mid year at this stage so maybe all code 1 frames refurbed or back in service by then

The daily PVG flight uses two frames with the daytime gap can be filled with a tasman run. There is also the 3 flights to PPT and 4 flights to APW and ADL which will use up more 789s. TPE was given a 4th weekly flight permanently as well. So all in all including the code 2 that about 12.5 frames will be needed to cover the schedules.

NZ cancelling nearly all flights to/from Wellington so far today due to weather, yet JQ doesn't seem to have missed a beat. Can anyone offer insight as to why the difference?

NZ516 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:
The 772 fleet is only going to DPS/HNL/ some IAH, EZE until mid year sometime, and RAR-SYD, RAR-LAX at this stage which needs barely 4 of the 8 frames, they will likely cover some LAX/SFO at certain times aswell

There will be more 772 flying than 4 frames. AKL to CNS 3pw, AKL to RAR daily, AKL to TBU 2pw, AKL to SYD 3 of the 4 daily flights as 772 as well. Later on when NZ4 begins that will use 2 772s 5 days a week.

I only count long haul, the only short haul that uses an additional frame most of the time is the double banger NZ101/102-105/108 AKL-SYd services, and probably the afternoon MEL service which comes off a long haul then from MEL at midnight before overnighting. You are right there will be more than 4 772 frames flying, maybe 5. NZ4 doesn’t start until NW 20/21, that’s to far out to say much about at this stage.

Whereas ADL/APW:RAR are pretty much mostly using a frame off an early arrival that departs in the evening US bank again.

You have to question whats going on in Air NZ. Based purely on a forecast the night before they cancelled 16 arrivals and 17 departures in and out of Wellington. Actual conditions were such that every one of those flights would have operated without any issues. During the time Air NZ stuffed the travel plans of thousands JetStar operated without any issues, infact not even one go around. When Air NZ finally did send A320's to Wellington they were timed to arrive as the front went through and of course inevitably they missed and diverted. Seems Air NZ is now run by a bunch of poorly trained kids as opposed to the experienced well trained staff that used to make critical decisions.

backfiah wrote:

NZ cancelling nearly all flights to/from Wellington so far today due to weather, yet JQ doesn't seem to have missed a beat. Can anyone offer insight as to why the difference?

I was following things on FlightRadar24 and getting my weather from Airways IFIS. Both the forecast (the TAF) and my monitoring of actual conditions (via the ATIS) seemed to indicate the strongest winds were between 9am and 11am, during which time every single Air NZ flight was cancelled, but JQ didn't actually have any flights during this time to begin with! The last one out before the strongest winds arrived 8.35am ex AKL and departed to AKL at 9.10am (and NZ had flights running at the time - 8.35am arrival ex HLZ and 9.05 departure to CHC), and the next JQ flight was 11.45am arrival ex ZQN and 12.25pm arrival ex AKL, during which time an NZ flight ex DUD arrived at 12.05pm.

Also, it wasn't exactly smooth sailing for everyone other than NZ - QF's Tasman flights opted for delayed departures ex Aus, so that they would arrive about 4pm (by which time flights were resuming at WLG); and the SQ A350 made one attempt, went around and diverted to CHC. (SQ247 eventually arrived from CHC about 5.30pm and SQ248 departed for MEL at 6.43pm, so I'd imagine SQ248 will be heavily delayed into SIN later on.)

So I think part of that dramatic difference between NZ and JQ's performance was luck - the strongest winds passed through at a time when JQ had no flights and NZ had heaps of flights.

All that being said, it did occur to me as strange that NZ took such drastic action and cancelled so many flights many hours in advance based on forecast alone. Was it a financially-motivated decision? I'm picking it might be cheaper to cancel flights, rebook pax and offer flexibility, rather than to fly a bunch of missed approaches and diversions then having to find other ways to get people there anyway?

Gasman wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

backfiah wrote:

But it's not just "another language". It's one of our three official languages in New Zealand, which means you should expect to interact with it in everyday life and realise it is part of the way we communicate in our country, whether you like it or not. German or Cantonese is hardly a comparison.

Fun fact... english is the majority language of New Zealand, but Te Reo Maori and NZ Sign Language are our only official languages. Which is kinda weird, right?

But anyway, overall it seems like a bit of a nob move by NZ to effectively troll their own customers. If you expect customers to engage with you on social media you should a. Expect all sorts, b. maintain professionalism and c. actually give the customer the correct information. Note that on the latter, the NZ response was incorrect and had to be fixed. Amateur hour at NZ.

Yes. I'm sure we'd all agree that we don't want to dive down the "what is the appropriate use of te Reo" rabbit hole right here and now; but NZ did demonstrate a distinct lack of professionalism. It's not hard to imagine what sort of person the social media portfolio gets delegated to in an institution like NZ; and we're seeing evidence of it come to the fore.

By all accounts “Margaret” has been a source of some concern for the airline for sometime. The way she behaves online towards people who are Maori has been similar to her disdain for the language. As a New Zealander I’m proud of the airline’s normalising of Te Reo Maori. It reflects the world I live and operate in.

Margaret is not part of that world and I don’t want her in the Koru Lounge.

I’ve seen other posts of hers on Facebook which were frame grabbed from before she shut down her social media profile. She is troubled, mean, vindictive and racist. I fully support the airline and its social media team.

Motorhussy wrote:

Gasman wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

Fun fact... english is the majority language of New Zealand, but Te Reo Maori and NZ Sign Language are our only official languages. Which is kinda weird, right?

But anyway, overall it seems like a bit of a nob move by NZ to effectively troll their own customers. If you expect customers to engage with you on social media you should a. Expect all sorts, b. maintain professionalism and c. actually give the customer the correct information. Note that on the latter, the NZ response was incorrect and had to be fixed. Amateur hour at NZ.

Yes. I'm sure we'd all agree that we don't want to dive down the "what is the appropriate use of te Reo" rabbit hole right here and now; but NZ did demonstrate a distinct lack of professionalism. It's not hard to imagine what sort of person the social media portfolio gets delegated to in an institution like NZ; and we're seeing evidence of it come to the fore.

By all accounts “Margaret” has been a source of some concern for the airline for sometime. The way she behaves online towards people who are Maori has been similar to her disdain for the language. As a New Zealander I’m proud of the airline’s normalising of Te Reo Maori. It reflects the world I live and operate in.

Margaret is not part of that world and I don’t want her in the Koru Lounge.

I’ve seen other posts of hers on Facebook which were frame grabbed from before she shut down her social media profile. She is troubled, mean, vindictive and racist. I fully support the airline and its social media team.

And what about he fact that the NZ social media team actually gave an incorrect response to start with? Whoever "Margaret" is, there are better ways of dealing with her.

GW54 wrote:

You have to question whats going on in Air NZ. Based purely on a forecast the night before they cancelled 16 arrivals and 17 departures in and out of Wellington. Actual conditions were such that every one of those flights would have operated without any issues. During the time Air NZ stuffed the travel plans of thousands JetStar operated without any issues, infact not even one go around. When Air NZ finally did send A320's to Wellington they were timed to arrive as the front went through and of course inevitably they missed and diverted. Seems Air NZ is now run by a bunch of poorly trained kids as opposed to the experienced well trained staff that used to make critical decisions.

I think that's a bit of a leap.

A few years back I got caught up in one of the Ruapehu mini eruptions. NZ was still flying AKL to WLG but at a lower altitude. JQ cancelled everything. Turns out the insurance on te JQ engines had stipulations that NZ's did not.

Essentially, all sorts of factors feed in to these decisions. NZ is a pretty exceptional airline operationally and is not run by kids.

NZ6 wrote:

I really like how as a country we've embraced our indigenous language and how's it being incorporated into an everyday living but we also need to respect those who aren't on this page yet and not label differences of opinion/preference racism.

We haven't embraced Maori it's been forced onto us by the politically correct crowd, a long with forcing feeding maori culture onto everyone we are also re-writing history, plus I think the standards of written and spoken english in NZ have gone down the crapper.

This has led to situations like this with this customer.

Sorry for going off topic.

Kiwirob wrote:

We haven't embraced Maori it's been forced onto us by the politically correct crowd, a long with forcing feeding maori culture onto everyone we are also re-writing history, plus I think the standards of written and spoken english in NZ have gone down the crapper.

Didn't that happen in the other direction a long, long time ago?

More on topic, I think both for Air NZ and New Zealand as a whole, embracing Maori culture and use of Te Reo gives us a point of difference - so that New Zealand is not "Australia but better at rugby", and Air NZ is not "Qantas with a slightly different accent".

aerokiwi wrote:

Motorhussy wrote:

Gasman wrote:

Yes. I'm sure we'd all agree that we don't want to dive down the "what is the appropriate use of te Reo" rabbit hole right here and now; but NZ did demonstrate a distinct lack of professionalism. It's not hard to imagine what sort of person the social media portfolio gets delegated to in an institution like NZ; and we're seeing evidence of it come to the fore.

By all accounts “Margaret” has been a source of some concern for the airline for sometime. The way she behaves online towards people who are Maori has been similar to her disdain for the language. As a New Zealander I’m proud of the airline’s normalising of Te Reo Maori. It reflects the world I live and operate in.

Margaret is not part of that world and I don’t want her in the Koru Lounge.

I’ve seen other posts of hers on Facebook which were frame grabbed from before she shut down her social media profile. She is troubled, mean, vindictive and racist. I fully support the airline and its social media team.

And what about he fact that the NZ social media team actually gave an incorrect response to start with? Whoever "Margaret" is, there are better ways of dealing with her.

What “incorrect” response was this?

aerokiwi wrote:

GW54 wrote:

You have to question whats going on in Air NZ. Based purely on a forecast the night before they cancelled 16 arrivals and 17 departures in and out of Wellington. Actual conditions were such that every one of those flights would have operated without any issues. During the time Air NZ stuffed the travel plans of thousands JetStar operated without any issues, infact not even one go around. When Air NZ finally did send A320's to Wellington they were timed to arrive as the front went through and of course inevitably they missed and diverted. Seems Air NZ is now run by a bunch of poorly trained kids as opposed to the experienced well trained staff that used to make critical decisions.

I think that's a bit of a leap.

A few years back I got caught up in one of the Ruapehu mini eruptions. NZ was still flying AKL to WLG but at a lower altitude. JQ cancelled everything. Turns out the insurance on te JQ engines had stipulations that NZ's did not.

Essentially, all sorts of factors feed in to these decisions. NZ is a pretty exceptional airline operationally and is not run by kids.

Or a couple years back when there was those major ash cloud issues around the world from certain volcanos that stopped most fights in certain regions for days.

I remember everyone else stopping that Tasman flights, yet NZ kept flying. Was an experience flying AKL-MEL-AKL on 77W at 8000-10000ft the whole way.

Motorhussy wrote:

By all accounts “Margaret” has been a source of some concern for the airline for sometime. The way she behaves online towards people who are Maori has been similar to her disdain for the language. As a New Zealander I’m proud of the airline’s normalising of Te Reo Maori. It reflects the world I live and operate in.

Margaret is not part of that world and I don’t want her in the Koru Lounge.

I’ve seen other posts of hers on Facebook which were frame grabbed from before she shut down her social media profile. She is troubled, mean, vindictive and racist. I fully support the airline and its social media team.

You say "By all accounts “Margaret” has been a source of some concern for the airline for sometime". If there is a security concern airline security can and will remove her from flying or flag her as a passenger to monitor. That's some serious accusations if that's what you're implying. If it's a social media concern then that can just be managed in other ways.

Such as why engage with her on this platform? Why not remove her ability to post? Why not delete her post? Why not ignore her comment or simply answer the question like they do other posts?

Let's assume she holds a very narrow-minded view, one many would label a "racist view". Are you suggesting this is the best approach for NZ? She's entitled to her opinion, it's not right or wrong as it's her personal views and opinions. She's not the only one who doesn't like to be addressed in this way and has told NZ this. You don't mind it, I don't mind it, others like it and others don't.

If we strip back all the overthinking, NZ replied with a comment which was intended to be funny but ultimately publicly labelled a customer as racist and more than likely humiliated her and I wouldn't be surprised if she's now a victim of online bullying via PM's etc. Does NZ hold any responsibility for her wellbeing now?

Is her "source of concern" something NZ really needs to worry about if we were to look a the overall business? You're in a highly competitive market with softening demand, billions of dollars tied up in aircraft which have ongoing engine issues leaving many of them grounded more than they should be, you're geographically isolated and are facing an increasing global trend of carbon emission guilt... so again... a concern?

Kiwirob wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

I really like how as a country we've embraced our indigenous language and how's it being incorporated into an everyday living but we also need to respect those who aren't on this page yet and not label differences of opinion/preference racism.

We haven't embraced Maori it's been forced onto us by the politically correct crowd, a long with forcing feeding maori culture onto everyone we are also re-writing history, plus I think the standards of written and spoken english in NZ have gone down the crapper.

This has led to situations like this with this customer.

Sorry for going off topic.

We're all unique Kiwirob - we can't speak for everyone.

You'd say Bula in Fiji, Konnichiwa in Japan and Bonjour in France. Maori is our indigenous and (one of) official language and Kia Ora without question the most common and well-known word/phrase. Forced into you or just celebrating who we are and what makes New Zealand one of the safest and best places in the world to live?

GW54 wrote:

You have to question whats going on in Air NZ. Based purely on a forecast the night before they cancelled 16 arrivals and 17 departures in and out of Wellington. Actual conditions were such that every one of those flights would have operated without any issues. During the time Air NZ stuffed the travel plans of thousands JetStar operated without any issues, infact not even one go around. When Air NZ finally did send A320's to Wellington they were timed to arrive as the front went through and of course inevitably they missed and diverted. Seems Air NZ is now run by a bunch of poorly trained kids as opposed to the experienced well trained staff that used to make critical decisions.

I won't get into too much of why this decision was made but the expected long term rolling delays have other issues

- Passengers don't want to go to the airport when they know their flight will likely be cancelled and have to wait for the inevitable
- Passengers don't want to travel to WLG and get stuck.
- Operating flights to WLG and then having equipment stuck on the ground impacts sectors elsewhere.
- WLG faces issues with high winds and loading/unloaded restrictions. (unsafe for loaders to work on the ramp which results in planes being grounded even if they could take off).

There have been trials with airlines overseas which have had positive results where the airline just commits to a delay early. Overall passenger response is higher than the uncertainty and last-minute cancellations. It doesn't work for everyone and in some cases makes the worst scenarios worse but when looking at all passengers there are some major benefits.

Invercargill-Auckland jet travel gets off to flying start

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117807 ... ying-start

Passengers through Invercargill Airport had grown steadily over the year but there had been a significant upswing since the jets started flying.

"Our numbers have reached 337,081 passenger movements for the year to the end of October which is a 7.8 per cent increase over the same period last year."

This is good news for Invercargill hopefully the new link can be extended to a daily service in the new year ahead. Will be easier for scheduling and the travelling public who can travel any day of the week etc.

Nelson-based Originair looks to expand North Island flights

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/new ... nd-flights

This is to be expected now that they have their own AOC at last, planning resuming NPL and NPE. Perhaps they might give the Nelson to Hamilton route a go formerly run by Kiwi Air which had good loads on it. They not seem interested in flying to more South Island destinations.at all.

NZ6 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

I really like how as a country we've embraced our indigenous language and how's it being incorporated into an everyday living but we also need to respect those who aren't on this page yet and not label differences of opinion/preference racism.

We haven't embraced Maori it's been forced onto us by the politically correct crowd, a long with forcing feeding maori culture onto everyone we are also re-writing history, plus I think the standards of written and spoken english in NZ have gone down the crapper.

This has led to situations like this with this customer.

Sorry for going off topic.

We're all unique Kiwirob - we can't speak for everyone.

True.

NZ6 wrote:

You'd say Bula in Fiji, Konnichiwa in Japan and Bonjour in France.

In all those examples they are both the indigenous and the dominant language used for purposes of communication. Whereas the dominant language in New Zealand that is the mother tongue to the overwhelming majority (including Maori people) is English.

NZ6 wrote:

Maori is our indigenous and (one of) official language and Kia Ora without question the most common and well-known word/phrase.

True, and pretending you don't know what it means just to make some whiny, ill-defined passive aggressive point is just dumb.

NZ6 wrote:

Forced into you or just celebrating who we are and what makes New Zealand one of the safest and best places in the world to live?

Forced into it. Some are embracing Maori culture. Others are telling themselves they are, or are pretending to because of some perceived prevailing ascendancy. And others, while supporting others' rights to do so, aren't embracing Maori culture at all. And that is actually a totally valid place to be.

Motorhussy wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

Motorhussy wrote:

By all accounts “Margaret” has been a source of some concern for the airline for sometime. The way she behaves online towards people who are Maori has been similar to her disdain for the language. As a New Zealander I’m proud of the airline’s normalising of Te Reo Maori. It reflects the world I live and operate in.

Margaret is not part of that world and I don’t want her in the Koru Lounge.

I’ve seen other posts of hers on Facebook which were frame grabbed from before she shut down her social media profile. She is troubled, mean, vindictive and racist. I fully support the airline and its social media team.

And what about he fact that the NZ social media team actually gave an incorrect response to start with? Whoever "Margaret" is, there are better ways of dealing with her.

What “incorrect” response was this?

The initial response that they didn't think it would open in 2019. Then they come back and admit that it will be ready before Christmas.

Reply once. Reply accurately. Reply dispassionately. Essentially, shut it down, especially if the customer is a challenging one. Basic stuff.

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

You'd say Bula in Fiji, Konnichiwa in Japan and Bonjour in France.

In all those examples they are both the indigenous and the dominant language used for purposes of communication. Whereas the dominant language in New Zealand that is the mother tongue to the overwhelming majority (including Maori people) is English.

NZ6 wrote:

Forced into you or just celebrating who we are and what makes New Zealand one of the safest and best places in the world to live?

Forced into it. Some are embracing Maori culture. Others are telling themselves they are, or are pretending to because of some perceived prevailing ascendancy. And others, while supporting others' rights to do so, aren't embracing Maori culture at all. And that is actually a totally valid place to be.

The majority see the Koru as a national icon, we sing our national anthem in both languages, get goosebumps by the Haka and celebrate the signing of the treaty with a national holiday.

There's no expectation on anyone anywhere, but a simple greeting "Kia Ora" is really a harmless way to embrace our heritage and also shows some corporate responsibility to unifying our nation and respecting our indigenous culture.

Like I said earlier. Some don't like it, I don't class them as racist. If anything I just feel sorry for them that they clearly live a cultureless boring life and a pourer off for it.

But each to their own.

aerokiwi wrote:

Motorhussy wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

And what about he fact that the NZ social media team actually gave an incorrect response to start with? Whoever "Margaret" is, there are better ways of dealing with her.

What “incorrect” response was this?

The initial response that they didn't think it would open in 2019. Then they come back and admit that it will be ready before Christmas.

Reply once. Reply accurately. Reply dispassionately. Essentially, shut it down, especially if the customer is a challenging one. Basic stuff.

When you go looking for fault sometimes it backfires.

She actually asked if I was going to be open mid-December, the first response was not in 2019 then later clarified it will be open before X-mas. Neither helps her travel plans.

Without knowing for certain, I'd say it's been asked before or there was a FAQ document distributed and it wasn't expected to be open in 2019 but they've gone and got an update and construction is ahead of schedule so have updated their timeframe.

Fire shots if we want. I don't really see an issue with this part of it. As per my other comments on this, the airline is stupid for the other comments.

NZ6 wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

Motorhussy wrote:

What “incorrect” response was this?

The initial response that they didn't think it would open in 2019. Then they come back and admit that it will be ready before Christmas.

Reply once. Reply accurately. Reply dispassionately. Essentially, shut it down, especially if the customer is a challenging one. Basic stuff.

When you go looking for fault sometimes it backfires.

She actually asked if I was going to be open mid-December, the first response was not in 2019 then later clarified it will be open before X-mas. Neither helps her travel plans.

Without knowing for certain, I'd say it's been asked before or there was a FAQ document distributed and it wasn't expected to be open in 2019 but they've gone and got an update and construction is ahead of schedule so have updated their timeframe.

Fire shots if we want. I don't really see an issue with this part of it. As per my other comments on this, the airline is stupid for the other comments.

I've just exhaustively process mapped a social media comms offering so I've got a bee in my bonnet about sloppiness like that - mind numbing work by the way. They made a clearly incorrect statement that it wouldn't open at all in 2019. Came back to correct and rubbed it in with a dumb insult.

Social media teams are usually skewed younger and more woke, adding inexperience and risk. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see here. I'll leave it at that.

On a totally unrelated matter, does anyone know how the nonstop IVC-AKL is going? Well, I hope. Long overdue, that one.

NZ6 wrote:

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

You'd say Bula in Fiji, Konnichiwa in Japan and Bonjour in France.

In all those examples they are both the indigenous and the dominant language used for purposes of communication. Whereas the dominant language in New Zealand that is the mother tongue to the overwhelming majority (including Maori people) is English.

NZ6 wrote:

Forced into you or just celebrating who we are and what makes New Zealand one of the safest and best places in the world to live?

Forced into it. Some are embracing Maori culture. Others are telling themselves they are, or are pretending to because of some perceived prevailing ascendancy. And others, while supporting others' rights to do so, aren't embracing Maori culture at all. And that is actually a totally valid place to be.

The majority see the Koru as a national icon, we sing our national anthem in both languages, get goosebumps by the Haka and celebrate the signing of the treaty with a national holiday.

There's no expectation on anyone anywhere, but a simple greeting "Kia Ora" is really a harmless way to embrace our heritage and also shows some corporate responsibility to unifying our nation and respecting our indigenous culture.

Like I said earlier. Some don't like it, I don't class them as racist. If anything I just feel sorry for them that they clearly live a cultureless boring life and a pourer off for it.

But each to their own.

Funny but I associate the Koru with Air NZ, Air NZ is a national icon, but not so much the Koru. I would guess at least 50% or more kiwis wouldn’t know the words to the national anthem in either or both languages and I know longer get goosebumps at the haka, the haka has been overplayed, and I now find it cringe worthy at the best of times. We killed it by overusing it. I don’t believe I live a culture less boring life because I chose not to buy into the maorisation of NZ.

aerokiwi wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

The initial response that they didn't think it would open in 2019. Then they come back and admit that it will be ready before Christmas.

Reply once. Reply accurately. Reply dispassionately. Essentially, shut it down, especially if the customer is a challenging one. Basic stuff.

When you go looking for fault sometimes it backfires.

She actually asked if I was going to be open mid-December, the first response was not in 2019 then later clarified it will be open before X-mas. Neither helps her travel plans.

Without knowing for certain, I'd say it's been asked before or there was a FAQ document distributed and it wasn't expected to be open in 2019 but they've gone and got an update and construction is ahead of schedule so have updated their timeframe.

Fire shots if we want. I don't really see an issue with this part of it. As per my other comments on this, the airline is stupid for the other comments.

I've just exhaustively process mapped a social media comms offering so I've got a bee in my bonnet about sloppiness like that - mind numbing work by the way. They made a clearly incorrect statement that it wouldn't open at all in 2019. Came back to correct and rubbed it in with a dumb insult.

Social media teams are usually skewed younger and more woke, adding inexperience and risk. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see here. I'll leave it at that.

On a totally unrelated matter, does anyone know how the nonstop IVC-AKL is going? Well, I hope. Long overdue, that one.

See the post 7 up. Going well.

Kiwirob wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

Gasman wrote:

In all those examples they are both the indigenous and the dominant language used for purposes of communication. Whereas the dominant language in New Zealand that is the mother tongue to the overwhelming majority (including Maori people) is English.


Forced into it. Some are embracing Maori culture. Others are telling themselves they are, or are pretending to because of some perceived prevailing ascendancy. And others, while supporting others' rights to do so, aren't embracing Maori culture at all. And that is actually a totally valid place to be.

The majority see the Koru as a national icon, we sing our national anthem in both languages, get goosebumps by the Haka and celebrate the signing of the treaty with a national holiday.

There's no expectation on anyone anywhere, but a simple greeting "Kia Ora" is really a harmless way to embrace our heritage and also shows some corporate responsibility to unifying our nation and respecting our indigenous culture.

Like I said earlier. Some don't like it, I don't class them as racist. If anything I just feel sorry for them that they clearly live a cultureless boring life and a pourer off for it.

But each to their own.

Funny but I associate the Koru with Air NZ, Air NZ is a national icon, but not so much the Koru. I would guess at least 50% or more kiwis wouldn’t know the words to the national anthem in either or both languages and I know longer get goosebumps at the haka, the haka has been overplayed, and I now find it cringe worthy at the best of times. We killed it by overusing it. I don’t believe I live a culture less boring life because I chose not to buy into the maorisation of NZ.

I bolded and underlined the word majority for a reason. Each to their own.

I think you've completely overlooked my message and related the examples to your personal views.

aerokiwi wrote:

NZ6 wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

The initial response that they didn't think it would open in 2019. Then they come back and admit that it will be ready before Christmas.

Reply once. Reply accurately. Reply dispassionately. Essentially, shut it down, especially if the customer is a challenging one. Basic stuff.

When you go looking for fault sometimes it backfires.

She actually asked if I was going to be open mid-December, the first response was not in 2019 then later clarified it will be open before X-mas. Neither helps her travel plans.

Without knowing for certain, I'd say it's been asked before or there was a FAQ document distributed and it wasn't expected to be open in 2019 but they've gone and got an update and construction is ahead of schedule so have updated their timeframe.

Fire shots if we want. I don't really see an issue with this part of it. As per my other comments on this, the airline is stupid for the other comments.

I've just exhaustively process mapped a social media comms offering so I've got a bee in my bonnet about sloppiness like that - mind numbing work by the way. They made a clearly incorrect statement that it wouldn't open at all in 2019. Came back to correct and rubbed it in with a dumb insult.

Social media teams are usually skewed younger and more woke, adding inexperience and risk. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see here. I'll leave it at that.

On a totally unrelated matter, does anyone know how the nonstop IVC-AKL is going? Well, I hope. Long overdue, that one.

Slightly overdramatic isn't it? As I said, they likely used a FAQ document for when it was reopening but have updated with it with good news. Or they got it wrong, either way slightly different and way less deliberate than insulting customers isn't it.