Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
avier
Posts: 1128
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:22 am

Nileblue wrote:
So is Kannur a more convenient airport to serve Northern Kerala compared to Mangalore or do they both have distinctive catchment areas?

anshabhi wrote:
Kannur is in Kerala, Mangalore is in Karnataka. Also, Mangalore airport is on a hill


Also Kannur is closer to CCJ- Kozhikode (Calicut) in Kerala, which ways had many flights to the Gulf. So Kannur coming up is more of a loss to Calicut than Mangalore. So not sure what one user keeps harping about Mangalore vs. Kannur.

Kannur itself has large population and catchment area, so what's north of Kannur is irrelevant. Discussion should be Kannur vs Calicut airport.
 
avier
Posts: 1128
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:23 am

Nileblue wrote:
So is Kannur a more convenient airport to serve Northern Kerala compared to Mangalore or do they both have distinctive catchment areas?

anshabhi wrote:
Kannur is in Kerala, Mangalore is in Karnataka. Also, Mangalore airport is on a hill


Also Kannur is closer to CCJ- Kozhikode (Calicut) in Kerala, which always had many flights to the Gulf. So Kannur airport coming up is more of a loss to the airport at Calicut than Mangalore. So not sure what one user keeps harping about Mangalore vs. Kannur.

Kannur itself has large population and catchment area, so what's north of Kannur is irrelevant. Discussion should be Kannur vs Calicut airport, as the large Kannur catchment which earlier had to go the nearest airport, being Calicut CCJ, now go to the new airport in their own city.
 
bostrv
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:54 am

The CEO of CNN is also the formerly of AI (MD?), Mr Thulsidas. His connections surely helps.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:52 pm

bostrv wrote:
The CEO of CNN is also the formerly of AI (MD?), Mr Thulsidas. His connections surely helps.

It has helped nada, nil, zero. Not a single foreign carrier is allowed to operate to Kannur despite his lobbying.
 
bostrv
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:58 pm

edealinfo wrote:
bostrv wrote:
The CEO of CNN is also the formerly of AI (MD?), Mr Thulsidas. His connections surely helps.

It has helped nada, nil, zero. Not a single foreign carrier is allowed to operate to Kannur despite his lobbying.


Someone did a really good job in convincing GoAir to give CNN a chance. GoAir took that chance, I like the fact that both of these happened.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 537
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:16 pm

The 49 slots have already been announced to Haneda, which do the airlines think will publish their operations to Haneda on March 27? OMG! with reason that all the ME3 have dominated the Indian market, I do not understand why Vistara or Air India have not announced anything at all S:
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
VTORD
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:47 pm

avier wrote:
Also Kannur is closer to CCJ- Kozhikode (Calicut) in Kerala, which always had many flights to the Gulf. So Kannur airport coming up is more of a loss to the airport at Calicut than Mangalore. So not sure what one user keeps harping about Mangalore vs. Kannur.

Kannur itself has large population and catchment area, so what's north of Kannur is irrelevant. Discussion should be Kannur vs Calicut airport, as the large Kannur catchment which earlier had to go the nearest airport, being Calicut CCJ, now go to the new airport in their own city.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

edealinfo wrote:
The CEO of CNN is also the formerly of AI (MD?), Mr Thulsidas. His connections surely helps.

Worthwhile to note that Thulasidas helmed AI under Praful Patel and presided over the time when Air India officially got pushed into the ditch - the infamous bilateral grant to Dubai, the godforsaken merger and the widebody order. He doesn't particularly have a stellar reputation in Indian aviation circles.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:48 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
The 49 slots have already been announced to Haneda, which do the airlines think will publish their operations to Haneda on March 27? OMG! with reason that all the ME3 have dominated the Indian market, I do not understand why Vistara or Air India have not announced anything at all S:

When is the last date by when an announcement has to be made before the slot is cancelled. That’s the date the Indian carrier will announce its decision. Welcome to India
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:50 pm

VTORD wrote:
avier wrote:
Also Kannur is closer to CCJ- Kozhikode (Calicut) in Kerala, which always had many flights to the Gulf. So Kannur airport coming up is more of a loss to the airport at Calicut than Mangalore. So not sure what one user keeps harping about Mangalore vs. Kannur.

Kannur itself has large population and catchment area, so what's north of Kannur is irrelevant. Discussion should be Kannur vs Calicut airport, as the large Kannur catchment which earlier had to go the nearest airport, being Calicut CCJ, now go to the new airport in their own city.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

edealinfo wrote:
The CEO of CNN is also the formerly of AI (MD?), Mr Thulsidas. His connections surely helps.

Worthwhile to note that Thulasidas helmed AI under Praful Patel and presided over the time when Air India officially got pushed into the ditch - the infamous bilateral grant to Dubai, the godforsaken merger and the widebody order. He doesn't particularly have a stellar reputation in Indian aviation circles.


A “yes” man to his bosses, he is now getting No’s
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:13 pm

CAPA aviation is predicting pretty big losses in Indian aviation, $600 million. Mostly AI with $500 million in losses.

"However, these estimates have now been revised to a loss of $500 million, and possibly significantly more.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/m.timesofind ... 540882.cms

Basically, CAPA was previously predicting a profit of about $600 million, based on an AI loss of $150 million usd. Now AI is preficted to lose $350+ million more. Ouch.

I looked for other Indian airlines:
Indigo lost $150 million last quarter:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... terly-loss

SpiceJet lost $65 million (463 crore):
https://m.economictimes.com/markets/sto ... 040623.cms

This looks like the last minute discounting must be happening again.

I personally think the $600 million loss is too optimistic. It looks like over-expansion and zombie corporations combined are an issue.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:23 pm

lightsaber wrote:
CAPA aviation is predicting pretty big losses in Indian aviation, $600 million. Mostly AI with $500 million in losses.

......
Basically, CAPA was previously predicting a profit of about $600 million, based on an AI loss of $150 million usd. Now AI is preficted to lose $350+ million more. Ouch.


From earlier predicting a $600 million profit to now a $ 600 million loss.... speaks a lot about CAPA and their predictions. ;)

I would never take CAPA seriously on their projections.
 
VTORD
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:04 am

Sanjeev Kapoor has stepped down as CCO at Vistara effective Dec 31. Vinod Kannan to take over as CCO.
https://www.livemint.com/companies/peop ... 03641.html
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:15 am

I say Vistara is getting Etihad's LHR slots (previously leased to Air Serbia). I mean who else is desperately on the market for these slots and who else is desperately trying to lease it?

https://simpleflying.com/etihad-air-ser ... row-slots/
 
User avatar
CPS001
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:05 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:20 am

edealinfo wrote:
I say Vistara is getting Etihad's LHR slots (previously leased to Air Serbia). I mean who else is desperately on the market for these slots and who else is desperately trying to lease it?

https://simpleflying.com/etihad-air-ser ... row-slots/


Everyone wants LHR slots so those are probably in the sights of several airlines. See this post from the Turkish thread. 856 requests denied.

LAXintl wrote:
Virtually everyone applies for additional LHR slots each season. TK asked for 112 weekly frequencies for S20, but must continue operating 76. In total 856 slot request were denied.
 
sabby
Posts: 452
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:24 am

lightsaber wrote:
CAPA aviation is predicting pretty big losses in Indian aviation, $600 million. Mostly AI with $500 million in losses.

"However, these estimates have now been revised to a loss of $500 million, and possibly significantly more.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/m.timesofind ... 540882.cms

Basically, CAPA was previously predicting a profit of about $600 million, based on an AI loss of $150 million usd. Now AI is preficted to lose $350+ million more. Ouch.

I looked for other Indian airlines:
Indigo lost $150 million last quarter:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... terly-loss

SpiceJet lost $65 million (463 crore):
https://m.economictimes.com/markets/sto ... 040623.cms

This looks like the last minute discounting must be happening again.

I personally think the $600 million loss is too optimistic. It looks like over-expansion and zombie corporations combined are an issue.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber



India is going through a significant economic slow down and demand is quite less from both business and leisure. On top of that, several places are shut off and hundreds of flights are cancelled since a few days which could only get worse in the next few weeks. This quarter and the next would be quite bad for travel and leisure industries.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:29 pm

The DGCA when asked to provide clarity on ex-Jet slots, in my opinion, provided zero clarity.

From the economic times....

“MUMBAI: The Aviation Ministry and Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) on Tuesday informed the National Company Law Tribunal (NCLT) that they will positively consider any concrete business plan for the grounded Jet Airways.

The counsel representing the Ministry told the tribunal that it will examine the issue if Jet Airways prospective investors come up with a concrete business plan“

“Examine the issue” could have any number of outcomes. What an ambiguous, but likely deliberate, answer! How can A bidder take such words to the bank???? Will someone invest when all they have is a commitment by the government to merely examine the issue.
I think the DGCA is trying to drag this out long enough so there are no bidders, after which it will say that because there are no bidders, it is compelled to offer the slots to others. A classic example of India’s DGCA “I need to cover my arse” and “don’t blame me for my actions” positioning


And here is a contradiction in the same sentence
“He further said that slots are perishable assets and it cannot be utilized by other airlines.”
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:51 pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 780600.cms

Slots allotted on a phone call?


“Joshi said that, in view of rising demand for direct flight operations to Mumbai, he had spoken to GVK Reddy, the developer and operator of the airport in the capital of Maharashtra. “I requested him for a slot for a direct flight to Hubballi and he agreed,” the Union minister said.“
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:48 pm

sabby wrote:
India is going through a significant economic slow down and demand is quite less from both business and leisure. On top of that, several places are shut off and hundreds of flights are cancelled since a few days which could only get worse in the next few weeks. This quarter and the next would be quite bad for travel and leisure industries.


Last month's data shows 10% growth. There are quiet a few markets where traffic has declined but overall air traffic grew 10%.

India is certainly lot more then DEL and BOM.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:17 am

edealinfo wrote:
The DGCA when asked to provide clarity on ex-Jet slots, in my opinion, provided zero clarity.

From the economic times....

“MUMBAI: The Aviation Ministry and Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) on Tuesday informed the National Company Law Tribunal (NCLT) that they will positively consider any concrete business plan for the grounded Jet Airways.

The counsel representing the Ministry told the tribunal that it will examine the issue if Jet Airways prospective investors come up with a concrete business plan“

“Examine the issue” could have any number of outcomes. What an ambiguous, but likely deliberate, answer! How can A bidder take such words to the bank???? Will someone invest when all they have is a commitment by the government to merely examine the issue.
I think the DGCA is trying to drag this out long enough so there are no bidders, after which it will say that because there are no bidders, it is compelled to offer the slots to others. A classic example of India’s DGCA “I need to cover my arse” and “don’t blame me for my actions” positioning


And here is a contradiction in the same sentence
“He further said that slots are perishable assets and it cannot be utilized by other airlines.”


I was horribly wrong. The bidders took the DGCA’s MUMBO JUMBO comment to the bank (literally and figuratively) and they responded favorably. So now the bidders will receive new monies from INdian banks to revive Jet, and to repay the old lenders (again INdian banks). Go figure!

“Jet lenders to invite fresh bids as parties are willing to revive airline. The CoC will vote on restarting the bid process on Friday and the results will be out on Saturday”
 
Nileblue
Posts: 22
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:23 am

avier wrote:
Nileblue wrote:
So is Kannur a more convenient airport to serve Northern Kerala compared to Mangalore or do they both have distinctive catchment areas?

anshabhi wrote:
Kannur is in Kerala, Mangalore is in Karnataka. Also, Mangalore airport is on a hill


Also Kannur is closer to CCJ- Kozhikode (Calicut) in Kerala, which always had many flights to the Gulf. So Kannur airport coming up is more of a loss to the airport at Calicut than Mangalore. So not sure what one user keeps harping about Mangalore vs. Kannur.

Kannur itself has large population and catchment area, so what's north of Kannur is irrelevant. Discussion should be Kannur vs Calicut airport, as the large Kannur catchment which earlier had to go the nearest airport, being Calicut CCJ, now go to the new airport in their own city.


I wasn’t aware of the restriction on foreign carriers but why haven’t any other Indian carriers, besides GoAir, launched international operations from Kannur despite the airport having opened for commercial flights for over a year?
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:23 am

SpiceJet pilot forgets to turn on landing gear when landing

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economic ... 843087.cms
 
User avatar
CPS001
Posts: 249
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:27 am

@Nileblue - Air India Express and IndiGo operate international flights from CNN as well.
 
snehnath
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:47 am

[i]Thanks. So is Kannur a more convenient airport to serve Northern Kerala compared to Mangalore or do they both have distinctive catchment areas? Why haven’t other Indian carriers launched international operations? Are facilities limited?[/quote]


Prior to Kannur opening up, most travellers from Kannur district flew out from either Mangalore or Calicut. It was roughly a 3 hour drive either direction, but was far rougher to get to Calicut airport than to Mangalore due to the terrain, narrow roads etc. So a lot of this traffic is now originating from Kannur district. For expats from Kasargod in Kerala (and they are quite a significant number in the Middle East), Mangalore will always be the more convenient airport purely from a distance perspective. Interestingly a lot of tourists heading to the coffee estates in Kodagu district, are beginning to use Kannur, as it is much closer than either Mangalore or Mysuru.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:02 am

lightsaber wrote:
CAPA aviation is predicting pretty big losses in Indian aviation, $600 million. Mostly AI with $500 million in losses.

"However, these estimates have now been revised to a loss of $500 million, and possibly significantly more.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/m.timesofind ... 540882.cms

Basically, CAPA was previously predicting a profit of about $600 million, based on an AI loss of $150 million usd. Now AI is preficted to lose $350+ million more. Ouch.

I looked for other Indian airlines:
Indigo lost $150 million last quarter:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... terly-loss

SpiceJet lost $65 million (463 crore):
https://m.economictimes.com/markets/sto ... 040623.cms

This looks like the last minute discounting must be happening again.

I personally think the $600 million loss is too optimistic. It looks like over-expansion and zombie corporations combined are an issue.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber


Income growth in India is highly unequal. Poor remain poor, according to updated standards (which the govt isn't even keen on updating) and rich keep becoming much richer.

1.2 billion and all is a farce. India just doesn't have enough people to fill all the mindless rapid growth that these LCCs predicted.
 
avier
Posts: 1128
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:23 am

vadodara wrote:
Last month's data shows 10% growth. There are quiet a few markets where traffic has declined but overall air traffic grew 10%.

India is certainly lot more then DEL and BOM.


Yes, as of now Indian aviation is more than DEL/BOM because those those two airports have zero slots to spare to Indian carriers for their domestic expansion. So yeah, carriers are forced to throw capacity elsewhere as they have huge aircraft order backlogs. They however, openly voice their preference for the big two cities still, and even go to great lengths to anyhow secure slots at those two airports, as we saw post Jet shutdown. ;)

Once DEL expansion happens along with opening of Jewar airport at outter Delhi and NMIA airport at outter Mumbai, airlines will be back to Delhi/Mumbai focused expansion.
 
avier
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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:45 am

Nileblue wrote:
I wasn’t aware of the restriction on foreign carriers but why haven’t any other Indian carriers, besides GoAir, launched international operations from Kannur despite the airport having opened for commercial flights for over a year?


Kannur's attraction as an airport , for the airlines, is more so for int'l services to the Gulf just like it's similar neighbour Calicut (CCJ). But bilateral seats are exhausted to most prominent gulf markets like Dubai/Doha etc.

Their domestic market, is some what similar to Calicut too again, having sporadic demand to select few cities only. Hence, India's largest airline, IndiGo, serves Kannur only with ATR's for domestic services. And only one sole int'l service now to DOH on airbus, after pulling out of KWI last month.
GoAir just cancelled their second daily day service to BOM, and operates only a red eye flight now. They have regular service to BLR and weekly services to HYD/MAA.
So opening Kannur as a station now by other Indian airlines just for domestic services is definitely not worth it.

Regarding Int'l airlines at Kannur, even Mangalore being such an old airport hasn't yet been made a point of call for int'l carriers despite being popular for gulf connections since decades. So not sure why Kannur thinks they'll get that privilege just right after opening their new airport.
 
IndiaKerala
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:01 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:03 am

avier wrote:
Nileblue wrote:
I wasn’t aware of the restriction on foreign carriers but why haven’t any other Indian carriers, besides GoAir, launched international operations from Kannur despite the airport having opened for commercial flights for over a year?


Kannur's attraction as an airport , for the airlines, is more so for int'l services to the Gulf just like it's similar neighbour Calicut (CCJ). But bilateral seats are exhausted to most prominent gulf markets like Dubai/Doha etc.

Their domestic market, is some what similar to Calicut too again, having sporadic demand to select few cities only. Hence, India's largest airline, IndiGo, serves Kannur only with ATR's for domestic services. And only one sole int'l service now to DOH on airbus, after pulling out of KWI last month.
GoAir just cancelled their second daily day service to BOM, and operates only a red eye flight now. They have regular service to BLR and weekly services to HYD/MAA.
So opening Kannur as a station now by other Indian airlines just for domestic services is definitely not worth it.

Regarding Int'l airlines at Kannur, even Mangalore being such an old airport hasn't yet been made a point of call for int'l carriers despite being popular for gulf connections since decades. So not sure why Kannur thinks they'll get that privilege just right after opening their new airport.


GoAir has stopped all services to MAA,HYD and stopped 1x BOM,BLR. Now has only 1x BLR and red eye BOM. Indigo also stopped 1x HYD service last week, as per SSC.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
 
avier
Posts: 1128
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:31 pm

IndiaKerala wrote:
GoAir has stopped all services to MAA,HYD and stopped 1x BOM,BLR. Now has only 1x BLR and red eye BOM. Indigo also stopped 1x HYD service last week, as per SSC.

Hmm, interesting. So Kannur is losing steam already since just a year of its opening. Even GoAir's excitement seems to have waned out.
So Kannur lost connectivity to HYD completely, with both carriers pulling out. This along with all the reduced domestic services by GoAir, the so-called airline of Kannur. This just makes my point more clear that Kannur, along with cousin Calicut, has weak to sporadic domestic flight demand. Hence no reason for other airlines to be here, until and unless more gulf seat entitlements become available.
 
anshabhi
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:10 pm

avier wrote:
IndiaKerala wrote:
GoAir has stopped all services to MAA,HYD and stopped 1x BOM,BLR. Now has only 1x BLR and red eye BOM. Indigo also stopped 1x HYD service last week, as per SSC.

Hmm, interesting. So Kannur is losing steam already since just a year of its opening. Even GoAir's excitement seems to have waned out.
So Kannur lost connectivity to HYD completely, with both carriers pulling out. This along with all the reduced domestic services by GoAir, the so-called airline of Kannur. This just makes my point more clear that Kannur, along with cousin Calicut, has weak to sporadic domestic flight demand. Hence no reason for other airlines to be here, until and unless more gulf seat entitlements become available.


While comparatively, Mangalore has consistently added more domestic services. Manipal group is based out of Mangalore and they are a huge source of this traffic.
 
subramak1
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:28 pm

anshabhi wrote:
avier wrote:
IndiaKerala wrote:
GoAir has stopped all services to MAA,HYD and stopped 1x BOM,BLR. Now has only 1x BLR and red eye BOM. Indigo also stopped 1x HYD service last week, as per SSC.

Hmm, interesting. So Kannur is losing steam already since just a year of its opening. Even GoAir's excitement seems to have waned out.
So Kannur lost connectivity to HYD completely, with both carriers pulling out. This along with all the reduced domestic services by GoAir, the so-called airline of Kannur. This just makes my point more clear that Kannur, along with cousin Calicut, has weak to sporadic domestic flight demand. Hence no reason for other airlines to be here, until and unless more gulf seat entitlements become available.


While comparatively, Mangalore has consistently added more domestic services. Manipal group is based out of Mangalore and they are a huge source of this traffic.


Mangalore region has a bigger economy with Infosys having an office there, New Mangalore Port trust, Mangalore refinery etc. It is also headquarters of a few banks. All this drive business traffic to Mangalore. It is also a convenient airport for tourists visiting Hindu religious sites in Southern Karnataka. I am not surprised that 6E is able to support daily services to Bangalore, Chennai, Mumbai and Hyderabad from Mangalore.

Kannur is comparatively just a backwater

Subu
 
VTCIE
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:10 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:43 pm

Two things I would like to say about GoAir that are not related to Kannur:
  • The airline has resumed flights to the Maldives from DEL, BOM and BLR, all the cities from which it had suspended MLE flights earlier. But, between G8 and 6E, MLE as well as HKT have too many flights to DEL, BOM and BLR (and MLE to COK if AI is considered), but none whatsoever to MAA, HYD and other cities. (Maldivian does however fly to MAA 3x weekly, and onwards to Dhaka.) Should another Indian city get a flight to MLE or HKT, on GoAir or otherwise?

    Interestingly MAA has flights to offbeat island destinations, such as the once-weekly to Réunion Island on Air Austral, as well as Air Mauritius and Batik Air too (though one-stop via KUL), yet it does not have significant service to tourist islands closer home—other than, of course, IXZ, which is a domestic flight. CMB is not so much a tourist island as a VFR and business destination, so it does not count.

  • I have always felt that GoAir is too much of a me-too airline with its branding. It has the blue of IndiGo without most of what makes IndiGo stand apart as the leader in the Indian aviation sector. Its livery is the single most unmemorable of any A320-operating LCC, worse than even Wizz Air which is nothing but pink and purple swooshes. G8 does not have a scintilla of brand identity at this point. 6E, SG, I5 and UK all have strong brand identities (as did 9W when it was around); G8 has none. The multicoloured tails were replaced by a single blue colour simply to follow in the footsteps of 6E. I personally strongly believe a rebrand and a new livery for G8 is long overdue.

    (Though I must admit that SG had a much stronger brand image before the takeover by Ajay Singh than after it. The slogan With all our heart was the strongest identity SG has ever had, and now that airline has lost much of its vigour in the advertising front.)
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:21 pm

VTCIE wrote:
Two things I would like to say about GoAir that are not related to Kannur:
  • The airline has resumed flights to the Maldives from DEL, BOM and BLR, all the cities from which it had suspended MLE flights earlier. But, between G8 and 6E, MLE as well as HKT have too many flights to DEL, BOM and BLR (and MLE to COK if AI is considered), but none whatsoever to MAA, HYD and other cities. (Maldivian does however fly to MAA 3x weekly, and onwards to Dhaka.) Should another Indian city get a flight to MLE or HKT, on GoAir or otherwise?

    Interestingly MAA has flights to offbeat island destinations, such as the once-weekly to Réunion Island on Air Austral, as well as Air Mauritius and Batik Air too (though one-stop via KUL), yet it does not have significant service to tourist islands closer home—other than, of course, IXZ, which is a domestic flight. CMB is not so much a tourist island as a VFR and business destination, so it does not count.

  • I have always felt that GoAir is too much of a me-too airline with its branding. It has the blue of IndiGo without most of what makes IndiGo stand apart as the leader in the Indian aviation sector. Its livery is the single most unmemorable of any A320-operating LCC, worse than even Wizz Air which is nothing but pink and purple swooshes. G8 does not have a scintilla of brand identity at this point. 6E, SG, I5 and UK all have strong brand identities (as did 9W when it was around); G8 has none. The multicoloured tails were replaced by a single blue colour simply to follow in the footsteps of 6E. I personally strongly believe a rebrand and a new livery for G8 is long overdue.

    (Though I must admit that SG had a much stronger brand image before the takeover by Ajay Singh than after it. The slogan With all our heart was the strongest identity SG has ever had, and now that airline has lost much of its vigour in the advertising front.)


For low cost flights, I don’t think anyone cares about the livery painted on the aircraft. It’s all about the cost of the ticket.

And whether it is “with all your heart” or “emotionally yours” or whatever, everybody knows it is just BS (empty phrases that mean absolutely nothing in terms of service or anything else.) that’s just a fact. If you have fallen for it, you are a sucker of marketing BS.

Sorry that this sounds critical;

I know you have a Nobel heart (Many may argue that I am BSing
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20348
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:37 am

anshabhi wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
CAPA aviation is predicting pretty big losses in Indian aviation, $600 million. Mostly AI with $500 million in losses.

"However, these estimates have now been revised to a loss of $500 million, and possibly significantly more.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/m.timesofind ... 540882.cms

Basically, CAPA was previously predicting a profit of about $600 million, based on an AI loss of $150 million usd. Now AI is preficted to lose $350+ million more. Ouch.

I looked for other Indian airlines:
Indigo lost $150 million last quarter:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... terly-loss

SpiceJet lost $65 million (463 crore):
https://m.economictimes.com/markets/sto ... 040623.cms

This looks like the last minute discounting must be happening again.

I personally think the $600 million loss is too optimistic. It looks like over-expansion and zombie corporations combined are an issue.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber


Income growth in India is highly unequal. Poor remain poor, according to updated standards (which the govt isn't even keen on updating) and rich keep becoming much richer.

1.2 billion and all is a farce. India just doesn't have enough people to fill all the mindless rapid growth that these LCCs predicted.

I believe there is growth, but the potential is focused at the largest cities in India. Some is my biased belief in mega-urbanization (strong economies draw more economic growth). So for now, I see limited slots when people want to fly hampering India aviation profit.

I believe expansion at the new under proposal/development airports will drive growth at Mumbai, Delhi, and growth at impacted airports such as BLR.

Busy airports that have open slots at prime times are rare in India. The growth/revenue isn't at odd hours, it is when people want to fly. So right now it is infrastructure.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:28 am

VTCIE wrote:
Two things I would like to say about GoAir that are not related to Kannur:
  • The airline has resumed flights to the Maldives from DEL, BOM and BLR, all the cities from which it had suspended MLE flights earlier. But, between G8 and 6E, MLE as well as HKT have too many flights to DEL, BOM and BLR (and MLE to COK if AI is considered), but none whatsoever to MAA, HYD and other cities. (Maldivian does however fly to MAA 3x weekly, and onwards to Dhaka.) Should another Indian city get a flight to MLE or HKT, on GoAir or otherwise?

    Interestingly MAA has flights to offbeat island destinations, such as the once-weekly to Réunion Island on Air Austral, as well as Air Mauritius and Batik Air too (though one-stop via KUL), yet it does not have significant service to tourist islands closer home—other than, of course, IXZ, which is a domestic flight. CMB is not so much a tourist island as a VFR and business destination, so it does not count.

  • I have always felt that GoAir is too much of a me-too airline with its branding. It has the blue of IndiGo without most of what makes IndiGo stand apart as the leader in the Indian aviation sector. Its livery is the single most unmemorable of any A320-operating LCC, worse than even Wizz Air which is nothing but pink and purple swooshes. G8 does not have a scintilla of brand identity at this point. 6E, SG, I5 and UK all have strong brand identities (as did 9W when it was around); G8 has none. The multicoloured tails were replaced by a single blue colour simply to follow in the footsteps of 6E. I personally strongly believe a rebrand and a new livery for G8 is long overdue.

    (Though I must admit that SG had a much stronger brand image before the takeover by Ajay Singh than after it. The slogan With all our heart was the strongest identity SG has ever had, and now that airline has lost much of its vigour in the advertising front.)

You seriously think any passenger looks at the colour of the plane while making a flight reservation ?
Only thing that matters is cost and time of flight.
In many companies in smaller cities , flying is still considered a perk or luxury. So a distinction is made on seniority basis when official travel takes place . Concept of time saved by flying is still alien as saving a few thousand rupees by taking a train is given preference. Also I knew many executives in their 40s in the industry who had never flown and neither had their families, as they held flying in awe. And they could easily afford flying. Obviously I am talking about the traditional industries. Leave the metros and flying is still uncommon.
India still lacks a flying culture. People are very comfortable catching trains ,even for long journeys.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:34 am

Bangaluru Airport leases 6.3 acres of BIAL for construction of airport entertainment complex to build approx 10,000 seat arena on the lines of Madison Square Garden in New York

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/fir ... 66225.html
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:35 am

avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Last month's data shows 10% growth. There are quiet a few markets where traffic has declined but overall air traffic grew 10%.

India is certainly lot more then DEL and BOM.


Yes, as of now Indian aviation is more than DEL/BOM because those those two airports have zero slots to spare to Indian carriers for their domestic expansion. So yeah, carriers are forced to throw capacity elsewhere as they have huge aircraft order backlogs. They however, openly voice their preference for the big two cities still, and even go to great lengths to anyhow secure slots at those two airports, as we saw post Jet shutdown. ;)

Once DEL expansion happens along with opening of Jewar airport at outter Delhi and NMIA airport at outter Mumbai, airlines will be back to Delhi/Mumbai focused expansion.


Sure! Easiest way to create slots is to let Air India out of business. It is outstanding policy to allow 6 runway airport at Jewar. Besides Delhi, it should benefit W UP.

Regarding the ‘doubtful ‘ growth #’s you cite, I was specifically looking at AMD’s. The international #’s are even higher than domestic.

So one might argue that growth is constrained by restrictions imposed on airlines to fly to secondary cities.

Just saying, India is more than BOM/DEL.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:38 am

anshabhi wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
CAPA aviation is predicting pretty big losses in Indian aviation, $600 million. Mostly AI with $500 million in losses.

"However, these estimates have now been revised to a loss of $500 million, and possibly significantly more.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/m.timesofind ... 540882.cms

Basically, CAPA was previously predicting a profit of about $600 million, based on an AI loss of $150 million usd. Now AI is preficted to lose $350+ million more. Ouch.

I looked for other Indian airlines:
Indigo lost $150 million last quarter:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... terly-loss

SpiceJet lost $65 million (463 crore):
https://m.economictimes.com/markets/sto ... 040623.cms

This looks like the last minute discounting must be happening again.

I personally think the $600 million loss is too optimistic. It looks like over-expansion and zombie corporations combined are an issue.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber


Income growth in India is highly unequal. Poor remain poor, according to updated standards (which the govt isn't even keen on updating) and rich keep becoming much richer.

1.2 billion and all is a farce. India just doesn't have enough people to fill all the mindless rapid growth that these LCCs predicted.


How? The lack of rural jobs is a reality in the whole world. What’s wrong if the rural population wants to migrate to cities that offer upward mobility.

It is about time you see people flying from Gauhati and Agartala to work in say a Bangalore.
 
pune
Posts: 401
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:43 pm

anshabhi wrote:
pune wrote:
does anybody know what is happening about delhi airport, the people mover or the airport express ? Can anybody share any updates on that ? I did come to know about this

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tra ... 167997.cms

I had gone last year and had to get off at aerocity and then take the bus from aerocity to the airport for domestic air travel. It would have been far better if was able to enter into the airport premises without using the bus. Would have made more revenue for the metro as well as number of domestic passengers will be far more than international ones for sure (volume-wise) .

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 301017.cms


T1 has its own metro now, the purple line from Janakpuri. Moreover, 6E and SG operate domestic flights from T1,T2 & T3. I don't see any people mover coming. On a side note, India has so many unemployed people who would love to be drivers. Where's the need for automated people movers at all?


But that would be only for international passenger IIRC.

My point on people mover was from this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFqm8BcKPlI
 
pune
Posts: 401
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:04 pm

pune airport asks more slots -

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 498497.cms

Ironically, what has been making more waves are the MSRTC buses from mumbai airport to pune

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 594140.cms

and this is when Pune Airport still has to contend with the few empty slots after the jet airways saga, probably shared before -

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 605204.cms

FWIW, I do agree with @maint123 point that flying is still considered a luxury, more so with all the taxes and expenses built-in to take a flight from any A. to B. place in India.
 
sand26391
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:44 pm

SYD AIRPORT'S top unserved markets
Image
 
sand26391
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:48 pm

KLM PAX LOAD AT BLR (from 31/10/19 to 07/12/19)

Image
 
sabby
Posts: 452
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:59 pm

sand26391 wrote:
SYD AIRPORT'S top unserved markets
Image


I'd guess MEL would have similar numbers as well. But still probably not enough for QF to start non-stop considering SQ's strong foothold in Indian metros.
 
sabby
Posts: 452
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:02 pm

sand26391 wrote:
KLM PAX LOAD AT BLR (from 31/10/19 to 07/12/19)

Image


How did they load 298 passengers in a 294 seat plane ? I'm surprised to see the weird low spikes in BLR-AMS, maybe due to the days of scheduling. AMS-BLR seems to do great. They should try making it daily to get more corporate customers.
 
airboss787
Posts: 275
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:53 pm

sabby wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
KLM PAX LOAD AT BLR (from 31/10/19 to 07/12/19)

Image


How did they load 298 passengers in a 294 seat plane ? I'm surprised to see the weird low spikes in BLR-AMS, maybe due to the days of scheduling. AMS-BLR seems to do great. They should try making it daily to get more corporate customers.


Lap or bassinet babies. They don't get their own seats.
Star Alliance Gold
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:01 pm

May I remind you to provide links to your soureces. If you do not provide any links the posts will be removed. Thanks.
 
sand26391
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:07 pm

airboss787 wrote:
sabby wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
KLM PAX LOAD AT BLR (from 31/10/19 to 07/12/19)

Image


How did they load 298 passengers in a 294 seat plane ? I'm surprised to see the weird low spikes in BLR-AMS, maybe due to the days of scheduling. AMS-BLR seems to do great. They should try making it daily to get more corporate customers.


Lap or bassinet babies. They don't get their own seats.


Yup, the numbers include infants hence the 298.
Last edited by sand26391 on Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sand26391
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:15 pm

sand26391 wrote:
SYD AIRPORT'S top unserved markets
Image


Link:- https://www.sydneyairport.com.au/invest ... vestor-day
 
VTCIE
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:10 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:53 pm

edealinfo wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
Two things I would like to say about GoAir that are not related to Kannur:
  • The airline has resumed flights to the Maldives from DEL, BOM and BLR, all the cities from which it had suspended MLE flights earlier. But, between G8 and 6E, MLE as well as HKT have too many flights to DEL, BOM and BLR (and MLE to COK if AI is considered), but none whatsoever to MAA, HYD and other cities. (Maldivian does however fly to MAA 3x weekly, and onwards to Dhaka.) Should another Indian city get a flight to MLE or HKT, on GoAir or otherwise?

    Interestingly MAA has flights to offbeat island destinations, such as the once-weekly to Réunion Island on Air Austral, as well as Air Mauritius and Batik Air too (though one-stop via KUL), yet it does not have significant service to tourist islands closer home—other than, of course, IXZ, which is a domestic flight. CMB is not so much a tourist island as a VFR and business destination, so it does not count.

  • I have always felt that GoAir is too much of a me-too airline with its branding. It has the blue of IndiGo without most of what makes IndiGo stand apart as the leader in the Indian aviation sector. Its livery is the single most unmemorable of any A320-operating LCC, worse than even Wizz Air which is nothing but pink and purple swooshes. G8 does not have a scintilla of brand identity at this point. 6E, SG, I5 and UK all have strong brand identities (as did 9W when it was around); G8 has none. The multicoloured tails were replaced by a single blue colour simply to follow in the footsteps of 6E. I personally strongly believe a rebrand and a new livery for G8 is long overdue.

    (Though I must admit that SG had a much stronger brand image before the takeover by Ajay Singh than after it. The slogan With all our heart was the strongest identity SG has ever had, and now that airline has lost much of its vigour in the advertising front.)


For low cost flights, I don’t think anyone cares about the livery painted on the aircraft. It’s all about the cost of the ticket.

And whether it is “with all your heart” or “emotionally yours” or whatever, everybody knows it is just BS (empty phrases that mean absolutely nothing in terms of service or anything else.) that’s just a fact. If you have fallen for it, you are a sucker of marketing BS.

Sorry that this sounds critical;

I know you have a Nobel heart (Many may argue that I am BSing


maint123 wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
Two things I would like to say about GoAir that are not related to Kannur:
  • The airline has resumed flights to the Maldives from DEL, BOM and BLR, all the cities from which it had suspended MLE flights earlier. But, between G8 and 6E, MLE as well as HKT have too many flights to DEL, BOM and BLR (and MLE to COK if AI is considered), but none whatsoever to MAA, HYD and other cities. (Maldivian does however fly to MAA 3x weekly, and onwards to Dhaka.) Should another Indian city get a flight to MLE or HKT, on GoAir or otherwise?

    Interestingly MAA has flights to offbeat island destinations, such as the once-weekly to Réunion Island on Air Austral, as well as Air Mauritius and Batik Air too (though one-stop via KUL), yet it does not have significant service to tourist islands closer home—other than, of course, IXZ, which is a domestic flight. CMB is not so much a tourist island as a VFR and business destination, so it does not count.

  • I have always felt that GoAir is too much of a me-too airline with its branding. It has the blue of IndiGo without most of what makes IndiGo stand apart as the leader in the Indian aviation sector. Its livery is the single most unmemorable of any A320-operating LCC, worse than even Wizz Air which is nothing but pink and purple swooshes. G8 does not have a scintilla of brand identity at this point. 6E, SG, I5 and UK all have strong brand identities (as did 9W when it was around); G8 has none. The multicoloured tails were replaced by a single blue colour simply to follow in the footsteps of 6E. I personally strongly believe a rebrand and a new livery for G8 is long overdue.

    (Though I must admit that SG had a much stronger brand image before the takeover by Ajay Singh than after it. The slogan With all our heart was the strongest identity SG has ever had, and now that airline has lost much of its vigour in the advertising front.)

You seriously think any passenger looks at the colour of the plane while making a flight reservation ?
Only thing that matters is cost and time of flight.
In many companies in smaller cities , flying is still considered a perk or luxury. So a distinction is made on seniority basis when official travel takes place . Concept of time saved by flying is still alien as saving a few thousand rupees by taking a train is given preference. Also I knew many executives in their 40s in the industry who had never flown and neither had their families, as they held flying in awe. And they could easily afford flying. Obviously I am talking about the traditional industries. Leave the metros and flying is still uncommon.
India still lacks a flying culture. People are very comfortable catching trains ,even for long journeys.

Maybe the flying public does not care much whether the name of the airline begins with I, S, A, G or V as long as it takes them to their destinations comfortably and for a reasonable price. But that did not stop LH, EI and SK among others to introduce a fresh brand image. Truth be told, a cosmetic change will not do much to fix the more important things that are wrong with a company. But it is undeniably true that GoAir is mediocrity personified, and that is reflected in its livery, marketing and brand image.
Last edited by VTCIE on Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VTCIE
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:10 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:55 pm

sand26391 wrote:
KLM PAX LOAD AT BLR (from 31/10/19 to 07/12/19)

Image

Are these numbers better than the 9W BLR–AMS flight? Of course, that was a 777-300ER, so had more passengers.
 
Malayil
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - December 2019

Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:48 pm

I’m actually shocked that Kathmandu has more demand to Sydney than BOM. That makes no sense to me.

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