UA857
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Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:47 am

Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?
 
Arion640
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:50 am

I think only US carriers can operate US domestic flights?
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
SoEWR
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:57 am

UA857 wrote:
Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?


US doesn’t allow Cabtoage (8th/9th Freedom of the air) Flights. Very few countries outside of Europe do.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom ... ht_Freedom

Lookup Eight Freedom
 
Sightseer
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:57 am

As a general rule (besides areas like Schengen in the EU), countries don't allow foreign airlines to carry domestic traffic, and the US is no exception.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:59 am

That is correct. OP should see references to cabotage throughout this forum.

https://www.aopa.org/travel/internation ... l/cabotage
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:59 am

UA857/Leon wrote:
Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?


Google is your friend.

https://www.icao.int/Pages/freedomsAir.aspx
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:04 am

What is the service like on that flight?
 
Ishrion
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:06 am

Brazil allows it. Heck, they’re even promoting it.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
What is the service like on that flight?


Same as any other QF international flight. That is full service. Drinks, food IFE etc.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:28 am

Because they don't have enough English speaking staff.
 
SJPBR
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:30 am

Ishrion wrote:
Brazil allows it. Heck, they’re even promoting it.


No. We don’t. Not allowed here.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:52 am

Unless they allow US airways to fly SYD-MEL haha
 
dcajet
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:01 am

Ishrion wrote:
Brazil allows it. Heck, they’re even promoting it.


They do not. To transport passengers and cargo within Brazil (cabotage) , the airline has to be Brazilian. What you are thinking of is that Brazil now allows 100% foreign ownership of Brazilian airlines.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:09 am

Is Qantas allowed to carry express freight on LAX-JFK?
 
Varsity1
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:21 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Is Qantas allowed to carry express freight on LAX-JFK?


No. Cabotage applies to mail and freight as well.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
KFTG
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:24 am

I tried to non-rev on this flight once. It seemed like everyone I asked (including QF staff) gave me a different answer. I ultimately gave up on the idea. I know some US based pilots who have been able to jumpiest successfully.
 
kalvado
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:25 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Is Qantas allowed to carry express freight on LAX-JFK?

Without knowing specifics, I doubt so. Protection of domestic market is pretty strong. It may be even stronger in cargo sector.
As a fun fact, marine traffic is governed by Jones act, which " requires that all goods transported by water between U.S. ports be carried on U.S.-flag ships, constructed in the United States, owned by U.S. citizens, and crewed by U.S. citizens and U.S. permanent residents." If applied to air traffic, it would ban Airbus and Embraer planes from flying domestic routes as well. Maybe Mobile-built Airbus would be allowed.
 
dcajet
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:26 am

One can also legally travel on this QF flight between LAX - JFK & v.v if one has initiated the journey in Australia and did a stopover in Los Angeles.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:32 am

KFTG wrote:
I tried to non-rev on this flight once. It seemed like everyone I asked (including QF staff) gave me a different answer. I ultimately gave up on the idea. I know some US based pilots who have been able to jumpiest successfully.


Since there's no revenue involved, it likely doesn't apply to cabotage.
 
KFTG
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:33 am

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
KFTG wrote:
I tried to non-rev on this flight once. It seemed like everyone I asked (including QF staff) gave me a different answer. I ultimately gave up on the idea. I know some US based pilots who have been able to jumpiest successfully.


Since there's no revenue involved, it likely doesn't apply to cabotage.

My thoughts exactly and the motivation behind the idea. But that idea wasn't making its way through I guess. As the flight is no longer 747-400, it's not as interesting.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:37 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
Unless they allow US airways to fly SYD-MEL haha


United Airlines had traffic rights and sold local tickets on SYD-MEL following the collapse of Ansett in 2001.
a.
 
DTVG
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:39 am

Because aviation still is a highly protectionist sector.
Hopefully in 50 years the industry will be liberalized so that foreign airlines with access to cheaper labor and capital will serve US domestic routes.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:42 am

The U.S. Government is incredibly protective of their businesses, especially so in aviation. Not a chance some foreign company can compete in the domestic market.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:48 am

DTVG wrote:
Because aviation still is a highly protectionist sector.
Hopefully in 50 years the industry will be liberalized so that foreign airlines with access to cheaper labor and capital will serve US domestic routes.


Never gonna happen. Nor should it.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:01 am

This is true throughout aviation and the world. Most countries do not allow a private business jets, not registered locally, to carry nationals within their borders unless accompanied by the company passengers from the country of registry. This can quite complicated and dependent on local laws and interpretation by local authority. In the EU, such an operation requires importation of the plane into the EU, essentially pay the VAT or put up a bond equal to a percentage of the taxable valuation. It’s absolutely prohibited to carry foreign nationals within Canada in a non-Canadian registered plane, for another.
 
catiii
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:04 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
The U.S. Government is incredibly protective of their businesses, especially so in aviation. Not a chance some foreign company can compete in the domestic market.


As are the EU, Asian, African, Central and South American, et al governments who prevent foreign carriers from carrying local traffic. Nothing unique to the United States here.

And as for other industries, foreign companies openly compete in the domestic US market in the United States, so your premise is false.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:07 am

UA857 wrote:
Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

because NO foreign carrier can fly any domestic route inside the USA, and last I looked? JFK-LAX is surely in the lower 48 isn't it??
 
cschleic
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:21 am

IIRC, EVA Air used to operate SEA - JFK when they flew 747 combis, as an extension of TPE - SEA, but no local traffic of course.
 
zrs70
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:21 am

SCFlyer wrote:
UA857/Leon wrote:
Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?


Google is your friend.

https://www.icao.int/Pages/freedomsAir.aspx


I really despise it when people tell posters to search first.

Airliners.net is your friend as well.
19 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2019
 
strfyr51
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:30 am

DTVG wrote:
Because aviation still is a highly protectionist sector.
Hopefully in 50 years the industry will be liberalized so that foreign airlines with access to cheaper labor and capital will serve US domestic routes.

I doubt it, Not as long as USA airlines afe so much bigger than many foreign airlines. When I came to work at United in 1984, they were preparing to send 727's to Europe to fly LHR to fly within Europe. The Stipulation was that the 727's had not only to comply with USA FAR's But any European Regs they came in contact with as well, And we had a London based Maintenance team which included Maintenance Controllers at LHRLM. Once the agreement ended all the planes returned to the USA and most all the controllers left the company except for 1 which I had the pleasure of working with at OPBLM in Chicago at the Willis Tower.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:52 am

MAH4546 wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
Unless they allow US airways to fly SYD-MEL haha


United Airlines had traffic rights and sold local tickets on SYD-MEL following the collapse of Ansett in 2001.


This was only temporary to clear the backlog of passengers stuck by the AN collapse in 2001, alongside a number of other carriers inc CX, AC, etc. Once the backlog started clearing the temporary 8th freedom permission for foreign carriers ended.
 
smi0006
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:12 am

DenverTed wrote:
Because they don't have enough English speaking staff.


What? Qantas?

I heard that QF previously allowed a form of cabotage, perhaps international connections in LAX on a single ticket eg JFK-LAX-HKG, can’t recall specific details. But it was too hard and too risky to monitor compliance and fines too great to compensate for revenue generated so they no longer permit it. Was posted on this forum a year or so back - anyone able to shed light on this?
 
Ishrion
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:13 am

SJPBR wrote:
No. We don’t. Not allowed here.


dcajet wrote:
They do not. To transport passengers and cargo within Brazil (cabotage) , the airline has to be Brazilian. What you are thinking of is that Brazil now allows 100% foreign ownership of Brazilian airlines.


https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... l-service/

Brazil wants foreign carriers to operate domestic routes and has stepped up its recruiting, targeting three airlines including JetBlue.

We are going to talk with JetBlue, we are going to talk with Volaris, a Mexican group … we are going to talk with Sky Airline, which is Chilean. These are conversations to introduce Brazil to them, they do not mean that the airlines are saying that they will come here.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:28 am

DTVG wrote:
Because aviation still is a highly protectionist sector.
Hopefully in 50 years the industry will be liberalized so that foreign airlines with access to cheaper labor and capital will serve US domestic routes.


Yeah, let's destroy hundreds of thousands of American jobs so people can fly for 19 bucks on Lion Air between Vegas and Burbank instead of 39 bucks on a US carrier.

It will never happen

Back to the OP, Qantas cannot carry passengers between LAX and JFK in order to protect local American carriers. It is just like how a foreign ship cannot carry cargo between Los Angeles and Hawaii.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:54 am

Wouldn't it be a good idea for poorer countries to allow cabotage by carriers from more developed nations? Poorer countries tend to have high accident rates and allowing safer airlines to carry their residents would be a benefit.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:57 am

It's meant for connections , as people can jump on multiple flights in lax. They just can't legally sell domestic flights
 
cha747
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good idea for poorer countries to allow cabotage by carriers from more developed nations? Poorer countries tend to have high accident rates and allowing safer airlines to carry their residents would be a benefit.


Umm...data to back this claim? Define poorer country. Also, wouldn’t a “poorer country” put a “safer airline” in jeopardy with lack of infrastructure?
You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:28 am

cha747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good idea for poorer countries to allow cabotage by carriers from more developed nations? Poorer countries tend to have high accident rates and allowing safer airlines to carry their residents would be a benefit.


Umm...data to back this claim? Define poorer country. Also, wouldn’t a “poorer country” put a “safer airline” in jeopardy with lack of infrastructure?


Are you seriously claiming that places like The Congo are just as safe as the rest of the world? Do you trust BBC? If so they've done several reports on the subject. Good grief.
 
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seb146
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:44 am

When I was a ramp rat at SEA, we handled flights from SVO and VVO on SU. They flew SVO-SEA-LAX-SEA-SVO on IL96 and VVO-ANC-SEA-ANC-VVO on IL62. They did not allow passengers SEA-LAX or SEA-ANC. As an av enthusiast (as much as I hate flying) I think SEA-ANC on SU would be great!

A few years before that, I had to fly MCI-PDX. I thought it would be fun to fly AC. I called (it was way way WAAAAY back then) and asked if I could book a flight MCI-ORD-YVR-PDX but they said international law would not allow it. I probably could have gotten around it somehow. I ended up on UA MCI-DEN-SFO on 757 and SFO-PDX on Shuttle by UA on a darling 737-500. They are so small and try to be big it is adorable! I also have a story about changing planes at SFO and another about the time the SU flight crew were paid a bonus but those are for another time.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:06 am

strfyr51 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

because NO foreign carrier can fly any domestic route inside the USA, and last I looked? JFK-LAX is surely in the lower 48 isn't it??


If you're going to be snarky, at least be correct.

QF has flown LAX-JFK for years.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:07 am

seb146 wrote:
When I was a ramp rat at SEA, we handled flights from SVO and VVO on SU. They flew SVO-SEA-LAX-SEA-SVO on IL96 and VVO-ANC-SEA-ANC-VVO on IL62. They did not allow passengers SEA-LAX or SEA-ANC. As an av enthusiast (as much as I hate flying) I think SEA-ANC on SU would be great!

A few years before that, I had to fly MCI-PDX. I thought it would be fun to fly AC. I called (it was way way WAAAAY back then) and asked if I could book a flight MCI-ORD-YVR-PDX but they said international law would not allow it. I probably could have gotten around it somehow. I ended up on UA MCI-DEN-SFO on 757 and SFO-PDX on Shuttle by UA on a darling 737-500. They are so small and try to be big it is adorable! I also have a story about changing planes at SFO and another about the time the SU flight crew were paid a bonus but those are for another time.


The closest thing I was able to buy tickets on was when CX flew SFO-YVR-HKG. I flew on the SFO-YVR route. That was cool! I think Air Pacific was allowed to sell tickets on the YVR-HNL route. Also, QF flew 744's briefly on the SFO-YVR and you could fly that route as well.

Can you get around the cabotage law by buying a ticket from say SFO-YVR and then a separate ticket from YVR-EWR as a US citizen?
 
SocalApproach
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:50 am

I’ve actually always wondered if you could fly the domestic portion on QF as well so I appreciate the topic. Since it’s not allowed Does the flight actually park at a gate in LAX for fuel? Are passengers allowed to deplane? Is there a fresh crew that boards In LAX?
 
umichman
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:09 am

SocalApproach wrote:
I’ve actually always wondered if you could fly the domestic portion on QF as well so I appreciate the topic. Since it’s not allowed Does the flight actually park at a gate in LAX for fuel? Are passengers allowed to deplane? Is there a fresh crew that boards In LAX?


Everyone must deplane to clear customs and, yes, there is a new crew. As mentioned earlier, cabotage has to do solely with selling seats on the route. Crew and jumpseaters don't purchase seats, so they don't count. They sell QF11 SYD-LAX separately from QF11 SYD-JFK, so those who bought QF11 SYD-LAX standalone stay in LAX (or transfer to another flight). There's is also currently a change of guage. QF11 SYD-LAX is an A380, while QF11 LAX-JFK is a B787 ( aircraft is rotated from JFK-LAX route to/from BNE).
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:22 am

catiii wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
The U.S. Government is incredibly protective of their businesses, especially so in aviation. Not a chance some foreign company can compete in the domestic market.


As are the EU, Asian, African, Central and South American, et al governments who prevent foreign carriers from carrying local traffic. Nothing unique to the United States here.


Many non-Euopean airlines operate and sell tickets on intra- Europe tag on flights. Off the top of my head i can think of Latam, Emirates, Ethiopian, PIA, several Chinese carriers, there must be more.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:02 am

MAH4546 wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
Unless they allow US airways to fly SYD-MEL haha


United Airlines had traffic rights and sold local tickets on SYD-MEL following the collapse of Ansett in 2001.


I am not certain that’s true - I do not remember the ban on international carriers selling domestic-only sectors being lifted following AN’s collapse. Happy to be corrected though.

It DID happen during the prolonged pilots’ strike in 1989. Perhaps that’s what you are thinking?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Max Q
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:19 am

zrs70 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
UA857/Leon wrote:
Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?


Google is your friend.

https://www.icao.int/Pages/freedomsAir.aspx


I really despise it when people tell posters to search first.

Airliners.net is your friend as well.


I couldn’t agree more, well said


Never understood individuals on this enthusiasts forum telling people
to go to other sites for answers


We’re here to participate in a common interest !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
Sydscott
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:33 am

vhtje wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:hongkongflyer wrote:Unless they allow US airways to fly SYD-MEL hahaUnited Airlines had traffic rights and sold local tickets on SYD-MEL following the collapse of Ansett in 2001.I am not certain that’s true - I do not remember the ban on international carriers selling domestic-only sectors being lifted following AN’s collapse. Happy to be corrected though. It DID happen during the prolonged pilots’ strike in 1989. Perhaps that’s what you are thinking?


Right up until United stopped flying the SYD-MEL tag you could get tickets to fly SYD-MEL on United. Granted it wasn't normal to do so but friends and I used to do it semi regularly. I also don't think United actively marketed it but theoretically they would have been allowed to do so because of Australia's relatively liberal laws on setting up and owning a domestic carrier. (See Virgin Australia's ownership which is virtually 90% non-Australian).

The US is not so liberal with their laws and QF on the 787 likely doesn't need the local pax anyway.
 
DTVG
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:37 am

SierraPacific wrote:
DTVG wrote:
Because aviation still is a highly protectionist sector.
Hopefully in 50 years the industry will be liberalized so that foreign airlines with access to cheaper labor and capital will serve US domestic routes.


Yeah, let's destroy hundreds of thousands of American jobs so people can fly for 19 bucks on Lion Air between Vegas and Burbank instead of 39 bucks on a US carrier.

It will never happen

Back to the OP, Qantas cannot carry passengers between LAX and JFK in order to protect local American carriers. It is just like how a foreign ship cannot carry cargo between Los Angeles and Hawaii.


Yes, well obviously the US aviation employees (which are overrepresented here) won’t be happy as they enjoy protection that a lot of other sectors don’t.
However, If the US government would be acting in the interest of it’s consumer’s, more competition is the way to maximize overall welfare.
A start would be relaxing foreigner ownership restrictions for example.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:30 am

UA857 wrote:
Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?


The USA has never allowed cabotage, and we all know why. If they saw the service offered by other airlines, people would never take the US3 any more.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Why can't Qantas carry local traffic on JFK-LAX route?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:53 pm

It is actually not as simple as no country allows foreign airlines to fly domestically. In the ECAA, the European Common Aviation Area, any airline based in that area can fly any routes, including domestically inside a country.
The ECAA includes besides the EEA, Montenegro, Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo.

The agreement with Moldavia and Georgia are pending ratification. Armenia, Ukraine and Azerbaijan are in negotiation.

The EMMA concerning Morocco, Jordan and Israel are pending ratification. Lebanon and Algier are in negotiation.

Negotiation with Turkey, that is included in many European aviation agreements, have not started yet.

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