theasianguy
Topic Author
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:31 am

Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:28 am

After seeing American's extra midnight flight bank over Thanksgiving Sunday, I began thinking about why there aren't regularly scheduled red-eye flights between IAH/DFW and Northeast US airports like DCA/IAD/BWI/PHL/LGA/EWR/JFK/BOS. A red-eye like DFW-DCA would probably be a bit short, but I think a red-eye on IAH-EWR would be totally reasonable. Departing at around 12:30 AM, fly 3.5 hours, and land at 5:00 AM at EWR. The distance is comparable to existing red-eyes like LAX-AUS/DFW/IAH, LAS-DFW/IAH, PHX-ORD. Does the 1 hour vs 2 hour time difference make that big of a difference? I know similarly timed red-eyes in Asia exist on PVG-HND, HKG-ICN, HKG-KIX, and those are 3 hour flights over just a 1 hour time zone difference.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:36 am

Years ago there were such flights. Braniff operated 727-100's in a Quick Change configuration - at night they'd operate with a few pallets of freight and seats in the back. Eastern had a 2:00am flight from Atlanta to JFK (only a two hour flight - I took that once and only six passengers were on it. They could do it because they carried a lot of freight on those flights, because FedEx and UPS didn't have the kind of operations they have today. Today, it simply wouldn't be profitable. The West Coast - DFW/IAH flights can carry connecting passengers on both ends, so it can work. Not so much DFW/IAH/AUS/etc. to the Northeast.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1714
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:50 am

Didn't Eastern have a small hub out of Houston at one time with overnight flights on A300s that carried mostly freight? Passengers were carry-on only...no checked bags.

Anyway, one significant factor must be time zones...it's only one zone from Central to Eastern and, combined with shortish flight times, wouldn't make sense. West coast to Texas is two zones and works better. IAH - BOS, probably the longest possible in the U.S., is a 4 1/2 hour time change including the flight. So a midnight departure would arrive 4:30 a.m. Might work but probably not enough traffic. As noted above, a lot of overnights from the west coast go to hubs for connections further on in the morning anyway. Doesn't work out of Texas.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25827
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:53 am

The shorter west coast redeyes work because they are often the only way to get to some smaller East Coast cities early in the morning.
a.
 
United1
Posts: 3886
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:01 am

I found one of UA but (UA1177 IAH-IAD) but it's a really short flight...leaves at 0020 and gets in around 0400. I think that is one of the reasons you don't see many Texas to East coast overnight flights...you don't gain much by flying overnight vs catching a 0700 flight to LGA which would get you in by 1100. For anyone in IAH who needs to get to their final destination earlier than that in the morning UA routes them via IAD or ORD flights which allows them to catch the first flights of the day. ie leave 0025 out of IAH for a 0254 arrival at ORD. You can then connect onto any number of 0600 flights to DCA, LGA ect that will get you in by 0900~
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
ScottB
Posts: 6689
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:25 am

theasianguy wrote:
I began thinking about why there aren't regularly scheduled red-eye flights between IAH/DFW and Northeast US airports like DCA/IAD/BWI/PHL/LGA/EWR/JFK/BOS. A red-eye like DFW-DCA would probably be a bit short, but I think a red-eye on IAH-EWR would be totally reasonable. Departing at around 12:30 AM, fly 3.5 hours, and land at 5:00 AM at EWR. The distance is comparable to existing red-eyes like LAX-AUS/DFW/IAH, LAS-DFW/IAH, PHX-ORD. Does the 1 hour vs 2 hour time difference make that big of a difference? I know similarly timed red-eyes in Asia exist on PVG-HND, HKG-ICN, HKG-KIX, and those are 3 hour flights over just a 1 hour time zone difference.


Yes, the additional time zone makes a small difference, but another factor is the hub itself. A red-eye from the West Coast to IAH/DFW/MSP/DTW/ORD can feed the first morning bank at the hub. Midnight red-eyes from IAH or DFW would have little feed (the latest bank typically has arrivals around 8 or 9 pm) and feed very few flights, apart from flights to East Coast hubs like PHL or EWR with early banks.
 
codc10
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:38 am

On a regular basis (i.e., not a holiday weekend) such a flight would be pretty undesirable. There would be limited inbound connectivity, and the flight time is considerably less than 3.5h.. 2:50 or so in the air, and block-to-block is usually closer to 3:10.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:15 am

United1 wrote:
I found one of UA but (UA1177 IAH-IAD) but it's a really short flight...leaves at 0020 and gets in around 0400. I think that is one of the reasons you don't see many Texas to East coast overnight flights...you don't gain much by flying overnight vs catching a 0700 flight to LGA which would get you in by 1100. For anyone in IAH who needs to get to their final destination earlier than that in the morning UA routes them via IAD or ORD flights which allows them to catch the first flights of the day. ie leave 0025 out of IAH for a 0254 arrival at ORD. You can then connect onto any number of 0600 flights to DCA, LGA ect that will get you in by 0900~

That was a one off flight... United doesn't do any IAH-East Coast red eyes.
 
santi319
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:24 am

United1 wrote:
For anyone in IAH who needs to get to their final destination earlier than that in the morning UA routes them via IAD or ORD flights which allows them to catch the first flights of the day. ie leave 0025 out of IAH for a 0254 arrival at ORD. You can then connect onto any number of 0600 flights to DCA, LGA ect that will get you in by 0900~

This is.... awful, who in their right mind would do that to themselves... not even a nonrev...
 
usairways85
Posts: 4052
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:29 am

F9 has flown IAH/DFW-PHL redeyes.
 
Bigant0408
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:26 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:35 am

usairways85 wrote:
F9 has flown IAH/DFW-PHL redeyes.


I was about to say the same thing for those routes you mentioned.
The man who sleeps on the floor doesn’t fall out of bed
 
United1
Posts: 3886
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:47 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
United1 wrote:
I found one of UA but (UA1177 IAH-IAD) but it's a really short flight...leaves at 0020 and gets in around 0400. I think that is one of the reasons you don't see many Texas to East coast overnight flights...you don't gain much by flying overnight vs catching a 0700 flight to LGA which would get you in by 1100. For anyone in IAH who needs to get to their final destination earlier than that in the morning UA routes them via IAD or ORD flights which allows them to catch the first flights of the day. ie leave 0025 out of IAH for a 0254 arrival at ORD. You can then connect onto any number of 0600 flights to DCA, LGA ect that will get you in by 0900~

That was a one off flight... United doesn't do any IAH-East Coast red eyes.


UA1177 has operated a few times in the last few days may be a flight that was scheduled for thanksgiving weekend but it’s more than just a one off.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
United1
Posts: 3886
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:48 am

santi319 wrote:
United1 wrote:
For anyone in IAH who needs to get to their final destination earlier than that in the morning UA routes them via IAD or ORD flights which allows them to catch the first flights of the day. ie leave 0025 out of IAH for a 0254 arrival at ORD. You can then connect onto any number of 0600 flights to DCA, LGA ect that will get you in by 0900~

This is.... awful, who in their right mind would do that to themselves... not even a nonrev...


I agree and I think a 7am departure with a 11am arrival is a much better option. All about options.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
sargester
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:29 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:50 am

theasianguy wrote:
After seeing American's extra midnight flight bank over Thanksgiving Sunday, I began thinking about why there aren't regularly scheduled red-eye flights between IAH/DFW and Northeast US airports like DCA/IAD/BWI/PHL/LGA/EWR/JFK/BOS. A red-eye like DFW-DCA would probably be a bit short, but I think a red-eye on IAH-EWR would be totally reasonable. Departing at around 12:30 AM, fly 3.5 hours, and land at 5:00 AM at EWR. The distance is comparable to existing red-eyes like LAX-AUS/DFW/IAH, LAS-DFW/IAH, PHX-ORD. Does the 1 hour vs 2 hour time difference make that big of a difference? I know similarly timed red-eyes in Asia exist on PVG-HND, HKG-ICN, HKG-KIX, and those are 3 hour flights over just a 1 hour time zone difference.



These flights are for the holiday rush only, they do it every year now, they wouldn't do very well outside of that, the flights would be empty... simply isn't enough demand to satisfy having a 2 am departure to LGA or DCA, its only to move the mass amounts of people who travel at this time of year. Asia is different, just a sheer amount of people need to go A-B and it doesn't matter what time of the day it is... LAS LAX and a few other routes in the USA come to mind like this and YYZ YUL in Canada has departures till 1 am usually, the amount of time zones is critical for the 2.5ish hour red eyes, say they leave at 130 am from LAS bound for DFW, 2.5 hours, they are landing at 5am DFW time, if you were to go to somewhere within the mountain time zone or closer than DFW or IAH, you would end up landing at 4am and have lots of cranky pax that arent gonna feel so great having to connect
 
ben175
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:44 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:57 am

In comparison... QF/VA/TT/JQ all operate red-eyes on PER-MEL daily, a block time of 3:25 and usually much shorter than that. They are often the cheapest flights of the day, so very popular with students/leisure/VFR market. Considering Australia has approx. 8% of the population of the USA, I find it bizarre they wouldn't fill these flights.
 
seat1a
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:53 am

American had red-eyes from DFW to JFK/LGA departing at 3:30am/4:00am with morning arrivals. Saw this in a timetable from December 1974 on Departedflights.com.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 am

The simple answer is: "Because there is not demand for such a flight to offer it profitably, and it's not a low-margin convenience offered to keep business travelers in its network." If there were demand for such flights, airlines would offer them.

LGA is the most-popular NYC airport for passengers destined to NYC, and the flight wouldn't be able to land there, so it would have to go to EWR or JFK. Infrastructure would have to be available at the IAH/DFW origin to process an outgoing flight at that hour, adding an expense. The arrival time is pretty-useless to a business traveler -- too early to go straight to a meeting, too early to check into a hotel. So it's going largely to be VFR traffic, which means that the service would have to be offered at a low fare. Eastern got away with something like this because it was maxing out the bellies of its A300s with freight, and the $49/$99 passengers were gravy. That isn't viable today.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4401
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:40 am

Spirit airlines has and amazingly for years had the famous "redeye" in the same time zone. Plattsburgh (ny) PBG to FLL.

1050pm-2am north, 250am-6am south.

I can only imagine how cold it feels at 2am in NY after getting use to florida! Totally leisure based price sensitive schedule. Good use of a plane. ,But man not sure I could handle those times.
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:45 am

ben175 wrote:
In comparison... QF/VA/TT/JQ all operate red-eyes on PER-MEL daily, a block time of 3:25 and usually much shorter than that. They are often the cheapest flights of the day, so very popular with students/leisure/VFR market. Considering Australia has approx. 8% of the population of the USA, I find it bizarre they wouldn't fill these flights.


There are still too many options in the US that let people choose from a plethora of connections that give them a lower fare that would enable them to avoid taking short-haul redeyes. Business people in the US generally avoid redeyes as well. The closest we get to PER-MEL in our country is something like SFO-NYC, but that's considered a transcontinental flight, and those often have lie-flat seats with American first or business class service.

It's worth noting that there are a number of east and west coast to Texas flights that take off in the evening that arrive after the last bank of connections, and these are somewhat of a substitute for short-haul redeyes. There are also flights that leave around 9p from Texas and arrive after 1a on the East Coast.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 656
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:52 am

They are much more common in Mexico. For instance, Tijuana to Acapulco is 1,530 miles and two time zones
TIJ 12:30AM ACA 06:00AM
ACA 06:35 AM TIJ 08:29 AM

The flight times are often reasonable for "visiting friends and relatives" but they are terrible for gringos who want to vacation in Acapulco. Tijuana airport has a pedestrian crossing bridge into the USA to encourage Americans to use the airport who either don't want to drive or walk into the city of Tijuana or don't want to wait in the line at the border.
 
umichman
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:27 am

United1 wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
United1 wrote:
I found one of UA but (UA1177 IAH-IAD) but it's a really short flight...leaves at 0020 and gets in around 0400. I think that is one of the reasons you don't see many Texas to East coast overnight flights...you don't gain much by flying overnight vs catching a 0700 flight to LGA which would get you in by 1100. For anyone in IAH who needs to get to their final destination earlier than that in the morning UA routes them via IAD or ORD flights which allows them to catch the first flights of the day. ie leave 0025 out of IAH for a 0254 arrival at ORD. You can then connect onto any number of 0600 flights to DCA, LGA ect that will get you in by 0900~

That was a one off flight... United doesn't do any IAH-East Coast red eyes.


UA1177 has operated a few times in the last few days may be a flight that was scheduled for thanksgiving weekend but it’s more than just a one off.



Sorry, but it's a one-off (flight departing around midnight and arriving around 4AM) for Thanksgiving. They have flights on IAH-IAD that depart around 8:00 - 9:00 PM at other times of the year and arrive around midnight, but most don't really consider those to be true red-eye's (you can find many such west-east flights which arrive around midnight or shortly after).

There's an IAH-EWR flight around the Christmas holidays that departs around 9:45PM (UA1450) and arrives at about 2:00AM. That could more legitimately be called a red-eye, but it only operates for a couple weeks.
 
umichman
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:39 am

usairways85 wrote:
F9 has flown IAH/DFW-PHL redeyes.


Not seeing any late departures on these. There's an 11:30PM MCO-PHL flight on F9 that arrives at 2:00AM which operates through early March.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6175
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:09 am

usairways85 wrote:
F9 has flown IAH/DFW-PHL redeyes.


Look at F9's avg yield vs. AA/DL/UA.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3282
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:09 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Spirit airlines has and amazingly for years had the famous "redeye" in the same time zone. Plattsburgh (ny) PBG to FLL.

1050pm-2am north, 250am-6am south.

I can only imagine how cold it feels at 2am in NY after getting use to florida! Totally leisure based price sensitive schedule. Good use of a plane. ,But man not sure I could handle those times.

They used to have exactly the same Thing between MSP-FLL. Used it for a weekend getaway, 120 bucks. Would do it again in a heartbeat if they ran it out of BDL.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6175
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:35 pm

wjcandee wrote:
The simple answer is: "Because there is not demand for such a flight to offer it profitably, and it's not a low-margin convenience offered to keep business travelers in its network." If there were demand for such flights, airlines would offer them.

LGA is the most-popular NYC airport for passengers destined to NYC, and the flight wouldn't be able to land there, so it would have to go to EWR or JFK. Infrastructure would have to be available at the IAH/DFW origin to process an outgoing flight at that hour, adding an expense. The arrival time is pretty-useless to a business traveler -- too early to go straight to a meeting, too early to check into a hotel. So it's going largely to be VFR traffic, which means that the service would have to be offered at a low fare. Eastern got away with something like this because it was maxing out the bellies of its A300s with freight, and the $49/$99 passengers were gravy. That isn't viable today.


Yield is definitely part of the answer.

Apart from a very few slot-restricted airports U.S. carriers can operate domestically whenever they want and have facilities available - they're not restricted by bilateral slot arrangements of the OP's example routes. Carriers chase yields. They operate some redeyes (except WN) in part to reposition planes to the East Coast for morning departures. Few people WANT a sleepless 'night' (not even 3 hours sleep opportunity) on a plane, and with high frequencies on major U.S. routes can largely avoid it. ITA Matrix shows 34 flights by four carriers tomorrow on Dallas-NYC (and that doesn't even catch Southwest). There's no need to be flying at 3AM. Do you think showing up for a meeting sleep-deprived really improves productivity?
 
WN732
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:47 pm

If it would print money, they'd be doing it. Nobody is trying to go from DFW/IAH on a red eye that would clock in at 2.5 hours. The existing red eyes to TX from CA are absolutely horrendous. If you leave LAX at 12 you could easily arrive in IAH at around 4:30.

The 5 AM departures can get you to all of the major cities by working hours.
 
usairways85
Posts: 4052
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
F9 has flown IAH/DFW-PHL redeyes.


Look at F9's avg yield vs. AA/DL/UA.

Oh yea, very likely just a product of aircraft utilization that F9 can get away with.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:48 pm

theasianguy wrote:
After seeing American's extra midnight flight bank over Thanksgiving Sunday, I began thinking about why there aren't regularly scheduled red-eye flights between IAH/DFW and Northeast US airports like DCA/IAD/BWI/PHL/LGA/EWR/JFK/BOS.


The easy answer is these flights don't exist because there is no significant market for such flights and the extremely limited demand which does exist is not profitable flying, even during peak season. ULCCs might try it here and there, but the major airlines want nothing to do with those. There is already an abundance of very affordable capacity at times of day when the majority of people want to travel.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1527
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:01 pm

The OP should note note that much of the "awful" hour red-eyes are flights -to- a hub, and not flights from a hub. They're designed to sync up with early departure banks at that hub, Other than a lot of leisure flyers, most business flyers would give a big old "pass" to flights like these: wake up early (or not sleep at all). board a flight with no airport or in flight amenities, arrive at destination airport even more tired, and have a awfully unproductive day.

This is what hotels are for.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6934
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:10 pm

Texas-NE flights are roughly as long as Texas-west coast flights. West coast originating red eyes have the advantage because they cross 2 time zones to get to Texas or 3 to get to the east coast. Texas to east coast only crosses one so while youre flying for about the same length of time, you arrive at a more desirable time originating in the west coast.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 pm

Watching those AA flight times really just sent me the chills. I bet the people that flew on those 2:44 flights are vowing never to do it again.
 
77H
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:38 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
santi319 wrote:
United1 wrote:
For anyone in IAH who needs to get to their final destination earlier than that in the morning UA routes them via IAD or ORD flights which allows them to catch the first flights of the day. ie leave 0025 out of IAH for a 0254 arrival at ORD. You can then connect onto any number of 0600 flights to DCA, LGA ect that will get you in by 0900~

This is.... awful, who in their right mind would do that to themselves... not even a nonrev...


You’d be surprised what nonrevs are willing to do to get to their destination. If it’s the only option with open seats you can bet there will be a stand by list.

77H
 
77H
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:38 pm

santi319 wrote:
United1 wrote:
For anyone in IAH who needs to get to their final destination earlier than that in the morning UA routes them via IAD or ORD flights which allows them to catch the first flights of the day. ie leave 0025 out of IAH for a 0254 arrival at ORD. You can then connect onto any number of 0600 flights to DCA, LGA ect that will get you in by 0900~

This is.... awful, who in their right mind would do that to themselves... not even a nonrev...


You’d be surprised what nonrevs are willing to do to get to their destination. If it’s the only option with open seats you can bet there will be a stand by list.

77H[/quote]
 
flyfresno
Posts: 869
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:59 pm

It's certainly not the combination of distance and "to the East Coast" alone...DEN-NYC is only a couple dozen miles further (at most) than IAH-BOS, yet there are up to 3 red-eys per night from DEN to NYC (both JFK and EWR); DEN-IAD/BWI is only about 60 miles further than DFW-NYC, and there are usually a couple of those redeyes every night as well. I would think that, purely from a demand/volume standpoint, a red-eye from Dallas/Houston to the NYC region would work on peak days in something like an A220. However, airlines would probably want that flight to go to LGA, and with the curfew restrictions, the flight would have to leave Texas around 2AM, which (as others pointed out) probably would reduce demand a lot over a flight that, say, left around 12:40AM and landed around 5AM (which isn't possible). If anyone was to do this, it would probably be UA from IAH-EWR (they do actually have a quasi-redeye that leaves EWR at 9:45PM and arrives after 2AM).
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 1669
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:41 pm

Not in Texas, but JetBlue does DEN-BOS 10:22 PM - 4:01 AM.
I wonder how pax will handle the 4 AM arrival. Go to bed at 5 AM? Stay awake the whole moring and rest of the day?
 
IADCA
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:06 pm

theasianguy wrote:
After seeing American's extra midnight flight bank over Thanksgiving Sunday, I began thinking about why there aren't regularly scheduled red-eye flights between IAH/DFW and Northeast US airports like DCA/IAD/BWI/PHL/LGA/EWR/JFK/BOS. A red-eye like DFW-DCA would probably be a bit short, but I think a red-eye on IAH-EWR would be totally reasonable. Departing at around 12:30 AM, fly 3.5 hours, and land at 5:00 AM at EWR. The distance is comparable to existing red-eyes like LAX-AUS/DFW/IAH, LAS-DFW/IAH, PHX-ORD. Does the 1 hour vs 2 hour time difference make that big of a difference? I know similarly timed red-eyes in Asia exist on PVG-HND, HKG-ICN, HKG-KIX, and those are 3 hour flights over just a 1 hour time zone difference.


The biggest issue I see is that flights with those times need to rely on connections on one end - very few people flying the local pair are going to choose to fly that flight timing if they can leave even 3 hours earlier, still get a full day on both ends, and get a much better night of sleep. So then you ask yourself, will people connect coming off those flights? Not likely - most places that are big enough to have outbound flights from the NE hubs at 6 or 7 am have direct flights from Texas, and most of them would be backtracking. So, is there sufficient demand coming from inbound connections via the TX hubs to take overnight flights to the NE hubs? Possibly, but where besides Mexico or further south would it come from? If you're on the West Coast of the US, you have much better connection points onto less-awful redeyes to the NE.

Also, another thing that might give you pause about the idea is that it strikes me as more rational to run the flight in the opposite direction: leave the East Coast at 11:30, arrive TX 3.5 hours later at 2ish local. Go to bed and not be useless the next day.

Dieuwer wrote:
Not in Texas, but JetBlue does DEN-BOS 10:22 PM - 4:01 AM.
I wonder how pax will handle the 4 AM arrival. Go to bed at 5 AM? Stay awake the whole moring and rest of the day?


UA fairly often runs a DEN-IAD redeye during peak periods. Similar schedule - midnight departure, 5 am arrival. I've done it a couple times and it's absolutely brutal. To answer your question, I did not go to bed after.
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:08 am

Only a 1 hour time difference, and a flight from DFW to JFK takes 3.5 hours. That would be a miserable flight, likely taking place from 12:30 to 5 AM (I’d do it if it were cheap). Though, there is a red eye from SJU to DFW (San Juan is the Eastern US...)
 
F9LASDEN
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:55 am

IADCA wrote:
theasianguy wrote:
After seeing American's extra midnight flight bank over Thanksgiving Sunday, I began thinking about why there aren't regularly scheduled red-eye flights between IAH/DFW and Northeast US airports like DCA/IAD/BWI/PHL/LGA/EWR/JFK/BOS. A red-eye like DFW-DCA would probably be a bit short, but I think a red-eye on IAH-EWR would be totally reasonable. Departing at around 12:30 AM, fly 3.5 hours, and land at 5:00 AM at EWR. The distance is comparable to existing red-eyes like LAX-AUS/DFW/IAH, LAS-DFW/IAH, PHX-ORD. Does the 1 hour vs 2 hour time difference make that big of a difference? I know similarly timed red-eyes in Asia exist on PVG-HND, HKG-ICN, HKG-KIX, and those are 3 hour flights over just a 1 hour time zone difference.


The biggest issue I see is that flights with those times need to rely on connections on one end - very few people flying the local pair are going to choose to fly that flight timing if they can leave even 3 hours earlier, still get a full day on both ends, and get a much better night of sleep. So then you ask yourself, will people connect coming off those flights? Not likely - most places that are big enough to have outbound flights from the NE hubs at 6 or 7 am have direct flights from Texas, and most of them would be backtracking. So, is there sufficient demand coming from inbound connections via the TX hubs to take overnight flights to the NE hubs? Possibly, but where besides Mexico or further south would it come from? If you're on the West Coast of the US, you have much better connection points onto less-awful redeyes to the NE.

Also, another thing that might give you pause about the idea is that it strikes me as more rational to run the flight in the opposite direction: leave the East Coast at 11:30, arrive TX 3.5 hours later at 2ish local. Go to bed and not be useless the next day.

Dieuwer wrote:
Not in Texas, but JetBlue does DEN-BOS 10:22 PM - 4:01 AM.
I wonder how pax will handle the 4 AM arrival. Go to bed at 5 AM? Stay awake the whole moring and rest of the day?


UA fairly often runs a DEN-IAD redeye during peak periods. Similar schedule - midnight departure, 5 am arrival. I've done it a couple times and it's absolutely brutal. To answer your question, I did not go to bed after.


There are a fair amount of red eyes out of DEN like B6’s to BOS and UA’s to IAD on several airlines. According to FR24, tonight’s schedule shows the following:
-11:19pm: F9 to FLL (arrives 5:19am)
-11:34pm: F9 to RSW (arrives 5:08am)
-11:35pm: F9 to RDU (arrives 4:51am)
-11:45pm: UA to EWR (arrives 5:19am)
-11:58pm: B6 to JFK (arrives 5:34am)
-11:59pm: NK to FLL (arrives 5:45am)
-12:37am: F9 to MIA (arrives 6:22am)
-12:43am: F9 to TPA (arrives 6:03am)
-12:46am: F9 to MCO (arrives 6:28am)
-12:49am: F9 to ATL (arrives 5:36am)
-1:01am: AA to MIA (arrives 6:46am)
-1:06am: F9 to PHL (arrives 6:49am)
-1:20am: AA to PHL (arrives 6:49am)

Other days of the week and times of the year see several others (the aforementioned B6 to BOS and UA to IAD, UA to BOS, MCO, and FLL, AA to CLT, NK to BWI and ATL, DL to JFK and ATL, to name some other examples can think of).
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:06 am

cschleic wrote:
Didn't Eastern have a small hub out of Houston at one time with overnight flights on A300s that carried mostly freight? Passengers were carry-on only...no checked bags.


YES! The Moonlight Special. A really great thing shut down by Lorenzo after the Texas Air takeover so not to compete with CO. EA ran it for six months or so from ORD but that was an operational disaster given the extreme weather overnight in the winter in Chicago.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:55 am

cschleic wrote:
Didn't Eastern have a small hub out of Houston at one time with overnight flights on A300s that carried mostly freight? Passengers were carry-on only...no checked bags.

Anyway, one significant factor must be time zones...it's only one zone from Central to Eastern and, combined with shortish flight times, wouldn't make sense. West coast to Texas is two zones and works better. IAH - BOS, probably the longest possible in the U.S., is a 4 1/2 hour time change including the flight. So a midnight departure would arrive 4:30 a.m. Might work but probably not enough traffic. As noted above, a lot of overnights from the west coast go to hubs for connections further on in the morning anyway. Doesn't work out of Texas.

The Midnight Special flights... I was a regular rider.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:56 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
cschleic wrote:
Didn't Eastern have a small hub out of Houston at one time with overnight flights on A300s that carried mostly freight? Passengers were carry-on only...no checked bags.


YES! The Moonlight Special. A really great thing shut down by Lorenzo after the Texas Air takeover so not to compete with CO. EA ran it for six months or so from ORD but that was an operational disaster given the extreme weather overnight in the winter in Chicago.

they were hauling Roadway Package Express frieght as the cargo.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:57 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Only a 1 hour time difference, and a flight from DFW to JFK takes 3.5 hours. That would be a miserable flight, likely taking place from 12:30 to 5 AM (I’d do it if it were cheap). Though, there is a red eye from SJU to DFW (San Juan is the Eastern US...)

The Passrider Special
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2488
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:29 am

It's only a 3 hour flight from Houston or Dallas area airports to the east coast. If you take off at 06:00, you can get to east coast airports about 10:00. To arrive at the east coast earlier would require leaving at times that aren't too friendly for people starting from the central time zone. It requires either waking up very early or staying up very late to make a 03:00 flight to arrive at 07:00 in the northeast. From the west coast, one can leave at about midnight local time; fly 6 hours, and arrive at 09:00. The flights are too short from Texas, and the time difference is only one hour.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 6950
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:02 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Only a 1 hour time difference, and a flight from DFW to JFK takes 3.5 hours. That would be a miserable flight, likely taking place from 12:30 to 5 AM (I’d do it if it were cheap). Though, there is a red eye from SJU to DFW (San Juan is the Eastern US...)


SJU is one hour ahead of the east coast this time of the year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
alasizon
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:50 am

F9LASDEN wrote:
IADCA wrote:
theasianguy wrote:
After seeing American's extra midnight flight bank over Thanksgiving Sunday, I began thinking about why there aren't regularly scheduled red-eye flights between IAH/DFW and Northeast US airports like DCA/IAD/BWI/PHL/LGA/EWR/JFK/BOS. A red-eye like DFW-DCA would probably be a bit short, but I think a red-eye on IAH-EWR would be totally reasonable. Departing at around 12:30 AM, fly 3.5 hours, and land at 5:00 AM at EWR. The distance is comparable to existing red-eyes like LAX-AUS/DFW/IAH, LAS-DFW/IAH, PHX-ORD. Does the 1 hour vs 2 hour time difference make that big of a difference? I know similarly timed red-eyes in Asia exist on PVG-HND, HKG-ICN, HKG-KIX, and those are 3 hour flights over just a 1 hour time zone difference.


The biggest issue I see is that flights with those times need to rely on connections on one end - very few people flying the local pair are going to choose to fly that flight timing if they can leave even 3 hours earlier, still get a full day on both ends, and get a much better night of sleep. So then you ask yourself, will people connect coming off those flights? Not likely - most places that are big enough to have outbound flights from the NE hubs at 6 or 7 am have direct flights from Texas, and most of them would be backtracking. So, is there sufficient demand coming from inbound connections via the TX hubs to take overnight flights to the NE hubs? Possibly, but where besides Mexico or further south would it come from? If you're on the West Coast of the US, you have much better connection points onto less-awful redeyes to the NE.

Also, another thing that might give you pause about the idea is that it strikes me as more rational to run the flight in the opposite direction: leave the East Coast at 11:30, arrive TX 3.5 hours later at 2ish local. Go to bed and not be useless the next day.

Dieuwer wrote:
Not in Texas, but JetBlue does DEN-BOS 10:22 PM - 4:01 AM.
I wonder how pax will handle the 4 AM arrival. Go to bed at 5 AM? Stay awake the whole moring and rest of the day?


UA fairly often runs a DEN-IAD redeye during peak periods. Similar schedule - midnight departure, 5 am arrival. I've done it a couple times and it's absolutely brutal. To answer your question, I did not go to bed after.


There are a fair amount of red eyes out of DEN like B6’s to BOS and UA’s to IAD on several airlines. According to FR24, tonight’s schedule shows the following:
-11:19pm: F9 to FLL (arrives 5:19am)
-11:34pm: F9 to RSW (arrives 5:08am)
-11:35pm: F9 to RDU (arrives 4:51am)
-11:45pm: UA to EWR (arrives 5:19am)
-11:58pm: B6 to JFK (arrives 5:34am)
-11:59pm: NK to FLL (arrives 5:45am)
-12:37am: F9 to MIA (arrives 6:22am)
-12:43am: F9 to TPA (arrives 6:03am)
-12:46am: F9 to MCO (arrives 6:28am)
-12:49am: F9 to ATL (arrives 5:36am)
-1:01am: AA to MIA (arrives 6:46am)
-1:06am: F9 to PHL (arrives 6:49am)
-1:20am: AA to PHL (arrives 6:49am)

Other days of the week and times of the year see several others (the aforementioned B6 to BOS and UA to IAD, UA to BOS, MCO, and FLL, AA to CLT, NK to BWI and ATL, DL to JFK and ATL, to name some other examples can think of).


Big piece with DEN is the fact that it is in Mountain time as opposed to Central so that helps. Its also a couple hundred miles farther west which eats up some more flight time.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2060
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:03 am

I've always wondered this as well, but I always assumed that it wasn't possible due to there only being one time zone difference between Texas and the East Coast, meaning the departing flight would have to leave the Texas city extremely late to the point where there would be little connecting traffic.

AA does run a couple of short redeye flights. DEN-CLT is almost 300 miles shorter than BOS-DFW/IAH and AA regularly operates a redeye on the route, with flight times as short as 2h20m. AA does LAS-DFW as well, with airtime as short as 1h50m. Both seem like a total doozy and I can't fathom why anyone would choose to fly on either of those segments. Transcon red-eyes aren't that bad (SFO-BOS) because there is a chance one could get around 5h30m worth of sleep but any redeye touching Texas or the Mountain states essentially sucks.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
Josh32121
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:02 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:26 pm

You wanna talk about weird "redeyes?" I found an oddball A220 flight SLC-ATL on 28 December that I booked as my return from a trip out there. There are hardly any A220 flights out of ATL at the moment, so I thought it would be a fun opportunity to fly on one. But the flight leaves SLC at 20:19 and arrives ATL at 01:59 the next day. WTAF?
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1527
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:52 pm

The geography of this is interesting. If you look at PHX, AA and friends have a not insignificant number of departures post midnight. I've taken the 1:20 am flight PHX-DCA (routing was selected as irrops forced a cancellation from LAX-DFW-DCA and the only viable alternate was LAX-PHX-DCA). PHX airport and the Admirals club is an odd place at 12:30 am.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 6950
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:57 pm

USAirALB wrote:
I've always wondered this as well, but I always assumed that it wasn't possible due to there only being one time zone difference between Texas and the East Coast, meaning the departing flight would have to leave the Texas city extremely late to the point where there would be little connecting traffic.

AA does run a couple of short redeye flights. DEN-CLT is almost 300 miles shorter than BOS-DFW/IAH and AA regularly operates a redeye on the route, with flight times as short as 2h20m. AA does LAS-DFW as well, with airtime as short as 1h50m. Both seem like a total doozy and I can't fathom why anyone would choose to fly on either of those segments. Transcon red-eyes aren't that bad (SFO-BOS) because there is a chance one could get around 5h30m worth of sleep but any redeye touching Texas or the Mountain states essentially sucks.


AA occasionally runs a post midnight PHX-DFW departure, flight times is usually sub 2 hours. Done it a few times, not as horrible as one would think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
Oilman
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Why are there no regularly scheduled Texas-East Coast redeyes?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:04 pm

Josh32121 wrote:
You wanna talk about weird "redeyes?" I found an oddball A220 flight SLC-ATL on 28 December that I booked as my return from a trip out there. There are hardly any A220 flights out of ATL at the moment, so I thought it would be a fun opportunity to fly on one. But the flight leaves SLC at 20:19 and arrives ATL at 01:59 the next day. WTAF?


Back in the mid-90’s, this was a daily flight and was operated by a 727.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos