avi8
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DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:35 pm

Good morning all. I apologize if this was discussed before.

I flew out of BOS yesterday and payed close attention to DL’s flights through flight radar and terminal spotting. As I was waiting for my AA flight, I noticed a semi DL bank, in which flights came in from MCO, ATL, MSY, AUS, LGA, DCA, EWR and a couple of more cities I can’t remember. The A terminal went from being empty to having 7 E175, 2 CRJ900 and 2 A320s, which was cool to see.

My question: how much connecting traffic is DL aiming to get at Boston? I know the focus is O/D but I assume connecting traffic is an important quality of a hub. Has anyone connected there? How was your experience?

As for non-summer European flights, I only see AMS, LHR, and CDG, which people can get to from all the other DL hubs, including SEA and SLC.
avi8

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FlyingColours
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:54 pm

Well they are taking over the MAN flights from VS from April/May 2020, upping the frequency to daily from what I think is a 3x per week A330 at the minute (it should be going onto a 757 with Delta).

I am sure they announced a few more European destinations at the same time.

Phil
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Sightseer
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:56 pm

I haven't connected through there, since ATL is my home airport, but (apart from international->domestic) with all DL ops being self-contained in the pleasant Terminal A I'd be inclined to pick BOS over JFK if presented with that choice.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:00 pm

avi8 wrote:
My question: how much connecting traffic is DL aiming to get at Boston?


That's not the kind of question a U.S. carrier addresses publicly.

BOS is a sensible connecting point only for TATL and eastern Canada. Anything else is backtracking. Lots of the major U.S. airports rely on O&D traffic. Thinking an airport with lots of flights is a connecting hub is a sloppy use of the term.
 
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casinterest
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:34 pm

I have connected through BOS twice in the last 24 months to go to across the Atlantic. I connected once on Delta to connect to an Alitalia flight, and once on Jetblue to go on Turkish.

The delta connection was a close call as my flight was late from RDU,. and I had to get from the delta Terminal over to Terminal E. There are a lot of international flights over in Terminal E , with a few partners to make Boston a useful east coast/Northeast connection point. Coming from RDU, there are multiple options, but when traveling for business, I choose the cheapest.

My latest trip was on Jetblue connecting to Turkish, and aside from the extremely long layover, it was easy to connect from C to E as I did not have to go back through security. I think Jetblue is and Delta are going to be quite competitive out of Boston in the next few years, and it will be interesting to see how much traffic is thrown onto the routes.

The international bank of flights all seem to be late afternoon/evening fliights, so aside from this connecting traffic, I expect most of Boston is more O&D oriented.
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IrishAyes
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:13 pm

I flew to Portugal this summer via BOS, routing MDW-MSP-BOS-LIS and LIS-BOS-DTW-MDW on the return. I was pretty underwhelmed by the catering on the BOS-LIS segments because DL was utilizing a domestic 757 for the TATL route. The meals were not hot since I suppose they don't have ovens on these planes. We were served a cold salad on the outbound and a fruit and cheese platter on the return. The second meal service (on both flights) was a bag of Cheez-its.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:39 pm

Using USDOT stats, over the last five years, approximately 8% of Delta's total annual passengers at Logan are connecting. Though the absolute number of connecting passengers has increased over those five years, the connect passengers per flight has remained steady at 8.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:26 pm

Delta's strategy in BOS along with several other focus airports like RDU isn't about connections. In BOS it is about capturing higher yielding O&D traffic and selectively lightening the connections through JFK, in a much, much smaller way, similar to what UA does with EWR vs. IAD.
 
airbazar
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:33 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Delta's strategy in BOS along with several other focus airports like RDU isn't about connections. In BOS it is about capturing higher yielding O&D traffic and selectively lightening the connections through JFK, in a much, much smaller way, similar to what UA does with EWR vs. IAD.

It wasn't until now. Going forward connections will play a more relevant role as JFK is full. They said so themselves when they announced BOS would become a hub. There have also been hints and rumors that their operations at BOS will change significantly to allow for more connections. One such rumor is the suggestion of using terminal E (the international terminal), for both arrivals and departures. Currently all of DL's flights depart from their own terminal A. This would free up gate space to increase the amount of feeder flights.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:36 pm

FlyingColours wrote:
Well they are taking over the MAN flights from VS from April/May 2020, upping the frequency to daily from what I think is a 3x per week A330 at the minute (it should be going onto a 757 with Delta).

I am sure they announced a few more European destinations at the same time.

Phil
FlyingColours


Indeed but Boston-MAN is still only a seasonal route.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:34 am

airbazar wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Delta's strategy in BOS along with several other focus airports like RDU isn't about connections. In BOS it is about capturing higher yielding O&D traffic and selectively lightening the connections through JFK, in a much, much smaller way, similar to what UA does with EWR vs. IAD.

It wasn't until now. Going forward connections will play a more relevant role as JFK is full. They said so themselves when they announced BOS would become a hub. There have also been hints and rumors that their operations at BOS will change significantly to allow for more connections. One such rumor is the suggestion of using terminal E (the international terminal), for both arrivals and departures. Currently all of DL's flights depart from their own terminal A. This would free up gate space to increase the amount of feeder flights.


Isn't E bursting at the seams?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:50 am

airbazar wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Delta's strategy in BOS along with several other focus airports like RDU isn't about connections. In BOS it is about capturing higher yielding O&D traffic and selectively lightening the connections through JFK, in a much, much smaller way, similar to what UA does with EWR vs. IAD.

It wasn't until now. Going forward connections will play a more relevant role as JFK is full. They said so themselves when they announced BOS would become a hub. There have also been hints and rumors that their operations at BOS will change significantly to allow for more connections. One such rumor is the suggestion of using terminal E (the international terminal), for both arrivals and departures. Currently all of DL's flights depart from their own terminal A. This would free up gate space to increase the amount of feeder flights.


Yeah, but it doesn’t solve the geography problem and maybe even worsens it. The walk from E to A is a schlep. Maybe it’s no worse than some JFK connections, but it’s clearly worse than ATL and (especially) DTW. Moving some departures to E just exacerbates the passenger experience problem.
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tphuang
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:52 am

airbazar wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Delta's strategy in BOS along with several other focus airports like RDU isn't about connections. In BOS it is about capturing higher yielding O&D traffic and selectively lightening the connections through JFK, in a much, much smaller way, similar to what UA does with EWR vs. IAD.

It wasn't until now. Going forward connections will play a more relevant role as JFK is full. They said so themselves when they announced BOS would become a hub. There have also been hints and rumors that their operations at BOS will change significantly to allow for more connections. One such rumor is the suggestion of using terminal E (the international terminal), for both arrivals and departures. Currently all of DL's flights depart from their own terminal A. This would free up gate space to increase the amount of feeder flights.


Moving a couple of flights over to E (which is already over congested) at a time of the day where they are not even gate constrained at A but airport itself is definitely constrained at E is not a great idea. And they wouldn't even need it outside of a couple of months in summer time when E is already at its fullest. It's all brought up because of this obsession over DL claim that they will hit 200 flights a day. And given their gate constraints during middle of the day, setting up hub style banks is simply going to restrict the number of turns they can do in an airport that has lower OTP than JFK. Check the number of international flight that DL, it's JV partners and Skyteam partners have at JFK, it's not close to being comparable.

And the O&D traffic DL is capturing at BOS is about the furthest thing from high yielding. And that's unlikely to change as long as B6 is the dominant player in the market.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:18 pm

Thought this was an interesting quote:

"In September, Delta announced four new trans-Atlantic flights from Boston beginning in 2020, and Republic’s new base and additional flying will contribute to the passenger flow for connections through Logan International for these flights."

https://us.acrofan.com/detail.php?number=206673
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avi8
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 pm

Interesting. Does DL operate a mainline base from Logan? It’ll be interesting to watch how the hub grows.
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ScottB
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:24 pm

avi8 wrote:
Does DL operate a mainline base from Logan?


There's definitely a flight attendant base at BOS but I don't believe there are pilots based at Logan.

Cubsrule wrote:
The walk from E to A is a schlep. Maybe it’s no worse than some JFK connections, but it’s clearly worse than ATL and (especially) DTW. Moving some departures to E just exacerbates the passenger experience problem.


The walk from E to A isn't terrible if the moving sidewalks are operating. If they were to have some flights depart from E, that would be problematic due to the need to reclear TSA. They could hypothetically offer a secure-side bus shuttle but the ride around the entire terminal complex would be time-consuming -- there's really no other way around.

I wouldn't say an international E to A connection at BOS is any worse than an international E to A connection at ATL, though, even with the ATL train. The ATL concourses are long and crowded and have no moving sidewalks.

tphuang wrote:
the O&D traffic DL is capturing at BOS is about the furthest thing from high yielding. And that's unlikely to change as long as B6 is the dominant player in the market.


It's a fair bit earlier in DL's rebuild of BOS than it is in B6's buildup of BOS. Ultimately I think they end up much closer to parity. If you fly a lot, Mosaic is a joke compared to the higher Medallion tiers in SkyBolivares.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:36 pm

I connected at BOS while flying LHR-BOS-YYZ on DL/WS. I had about 2.5 hours, and it was fairly easy to walk across the parking lot from Terminal A to Terminal E (although I was able to re-check my bag in Terminal A). However, I can see how it could be an issue with a tight connection, as I had to re-clear security in Terminal E.

For many years, my home airport was ATL, and this connection at BOS felt easier than the journey between concourses at ATL. For one thing, there were a lot fewer people at BOS!
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N649DL
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:48 pm

avi8 wrote:
Interesting. Does DL operate a mainline base from Logan? It’ll be interesting to watch how the hub grows.


I flew EWR-ATL-AUS and on EWR-ATL was on a 737-900ER with all except one BOS-Based F/A's. I was chatting with one before takeoff after using the Lav's and he was super pumped about the new DL BOS-Based TATL service. Not that it does me any good living in AUS at the moment though as it's only 1x daily at night.
Last edited by N649DL on Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:50 pm

Are A and E not connected behind security? That's pretty suboptimal for those connecting from Delta on to AF, AZ, VS, and KL codeshares.
 
TheChickenman
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:58 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
Are A and E not connected behind security? That's pretty suboptimal for those connecting from Delta on to AF, AZ, VS, and KL codeshares.

No, they aren't, although there are long term plans to have everything connected post security. This would require going through all the terminals if you wanted to go A - E though. Regardless, there's probably not much in the way of connections between DL and the others in the JV out of Boston, most connections DL does out of Boston are all their own metal or with WS, who also operate out of A.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:40 am

TheChickenman wrote:
Regardless, there's probably not much in the way of connections between DL and the others in the JV out of Boston, most connections DL does out of Boston are all their own metal or with WS, who also operate out of A.



This is definitely not true. While maybe not an enormous number, there is definitely a good portion of passengers who connect from DL to the various international carriers
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:28 am

GSP psgr wrote:
Are A and E not connected behind security? That's pretty suboptimal for those connecting from Delta on to AF, AZ, VS, and KL codeshares.


Not at present. Massport will get around to building a post security connection between A and B which would allow someone to walk post security from terminal A to E. This won't happen until 2023 at the earliest. They need to finish the B to C connector, roadway upgrades and terminal E expansion first.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:11 am

FGITD wrote:
TheChickenman wrote:
Regardless, there's probably not much in the way of connections between DL and the others in the JV out of Boston, most connections DL does out of Boston are all their own metal or with WS, who also operate out of A.



This is definitely not true. While maybe not an enormous number, there is definitely a good portion of passengers who connect from DL to the various international carriers

I certainly don't doubt they exist, but I would be curious to know the percentage connecting onto JV carriers vs connecting onto other DL (TATL) flights. The only destination DL doesn't serve that the other JV members do is Rome iirc, so I figure it would make sense for them to have most connections going onto their own flights.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:20 am

TheChickenman wrote:
FGITD wrote:
TheChickenman wrote:
Regardless, there's probably not much in the way of connections between DL and the others in the JV out of Boston, most connections DL does out of Boston are all their own metal or with WS, who also operate out of A.



This is definitely not true. While maybe not an enormous number, there is definitely a good portion of passengers who connect from DL to the various international carriers

I certainly don't doubt they exist, but I would be curious to know the percentage connecting onto JV carriers vs connecting onto other DL (TATL) flights. The only destination DL doesn't serve that the other JV members do is Rome iirc, so I figure it would make sense for them to have most connections going onto their own flights.


You are correct they don’t serve it now, however DL will serve FCO next summer on a 330 going up against DY and regular incumbent AZ

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ton%20Rome
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:21 am

ScottB wrote:
tphuang wrote:
the O&D traffic DL is capturing at BOS is about the furthest thing from high yielding. And that's unlikely to change as long as B6 is the dominant player in the market.


It's a fair bit earlier in DL's rebuild of BOS than it is in B6's buildup of BOS. Ultimately I think they end up much closer to parity. If you fly a lot, Mosaic is a joke compared to the higher Medallion tiers in SkyBolivares.


B6 will have 30 gates + a lot of access to E and DL has 21 gates. How is DL going to catch up to B6? Given how many additional gates they still have coming, B6 has a lot more growth left to go at BOS. YoY, next summer B6 will be up 14% in departures, over 20% in passenger count and 25% in ASM.
They are on their way to 40% in domestic market share at BOS + vibrant international service. tThis buildup by DL has simply pushed B6 to move ffaster to that target. And as we've seen with other cities dominated by AS/WN (with similar cost like B6), the fares are controlled by largest carrier. Which means BOS will always be a low fared city compared to legacy dominated markets. And unlike SEA/BWI, BOS will also see low international fares too. And the transcon fare out of BOS on lie flat has to be lowest anywhere. Those are typically places where legacies run up their margins against LCCs. There really isn't a break for DL anywhere from B6 pricing outside of a couple of markets B6 doesn't serve.
 
TheChickenman
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:57 am

VS4ever wrote:
TheChickenman wrote:
FGITD wrote:


This is definitely not true. While maybe not an enormous number, there is definitely a good portion of passengers who connect from DL to the various international carriers

I certainly don't doubt they exist, but I would be curious to know the percentage connecting onto JV carriers vs connecting onto other DL (TATL) flights. The only destination DL doesn't serve that the other JV members do is Rome iirc, so I figure it would make sense for them to have most connections going onto their own flights.


You are correct they don’t serve it now, however DL will serve FCO next summer on a 330 going up against DY and regular incumbent AZ

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ton%20Rome

Right, I forgot about that. Still, that just further proves my point, that it would make the most sense for DL to connect via its own metal.
 
SoEWR
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:05 am

VS4ever wrote:
TheChickenman wrote:
FGITD wrote:


This is definitely not true. While maybe not an enormous number, there is definitely a good portion of passengers who connect from DL to the various international carriers

I certainly don't doubt they exist, but I would be curious to know the percentage connecting onto JV carriers vs connecting onto other DL (TATL) flights. The only destination DL doesn't serve that the other JV members do is Rome iirc, so I figure it would make sense for them to have most connections going onto their own flights.


You are correct they don’t serve it now, however DL will serve FCO next summer on a 330 going up against DY and regular incumbent AZ

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ton%20Rome


Alitalia is trying to join the AF/KL/Delta JV last I heard.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:34 am

tphuang wrote:
ScottB wrote:
tphuang wrote:
the O&D traffic DL is capturing at BOS is about the furthest thing from high yielding. And that's unlikely to change as long as B6 is the dominant player in the market.


It's a fair bit earlier in DL's rebuild of BOS than it is in B6's buildup of BOS. Ultimately I think they end up much closer to parity. If you fly a lot, Mosaic is a joke compared to the higher Medallion tiers in SkyBolivares.


B6 will have 30 gates + a lot of access to E and DL has 21 gates. How is DL going to catch up to B6? Given how many additional gates they still have coming, B6 has a lot more growth left to go at BOS. YoY, next summer B6 will be up 14% in departures, over 20% in passenger count and 25% in ASM.
They are on their way to 40% in domestic market share at BOS + vibrant international service. tThis buildup by DL has simply pushed B6 to move ffaster to that target. And as we've seen with other cities dominated by AS/WN (with similar cost like B6), the fares are controlled by largest carrier. Which means BOS will always be a low fared city compared to legacy dominated markets. And unlike SEA/BWI, BOS will also see low international fares too. And the transcon fare out of BOS on lie flat has to be lowest anywhere. Those are typically places where legacies run up their margins against LCCs. There really isn't a break for DL anywhere from B6 pricing outside of a couple of markets B6 doesn't serve.


To add to this, B6 have their refurb’d 320’s coming with the 12 extra seats per flight, they are already about 1/3 of the way through that program (see refurb thread for that info)

On top of that the new deliveries are going to be 321’s with 200 seats if they are not mint... that’s a big lift on 162 on their updated 320’s

Eventually when the 220’s start kicking those will also increase the seat counts vs the E190’s.

So even without increasing flights, the capacity will continue to increase and if memory serves they are already at 28% plus of the entire pax count at BOS, no way DL is catching that, even with their regional network it’s not even close and that is unlikely to change.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:41 am

TheChickenman wrote:
FGITD wrote:
TheChickenman wrote:
Regardless, there's probably not much in the way of connections between DL and the others in the JV out of Boston, most connections DL does out of Boston are all their own metal or with WS, who also operate out of A.



This is definitely not true. While maybe not an enormous number, there is definitely a good portion of passengers who connect from DL to the various international carriers

I certainly don't doubt they exist, but I would be curious to know the percentage connecting onto JV carriers vs connecting onto other DL (TATL) flights. The only destination DL doesn't serve that the other JV members do is Rome iirc, so I figure it would make sense for them to have most connections going onto their own flights.


Also Korean Air to Seoul going to Asia.
 
catiii
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:03 am

avi8 wrote:
Interesting. Does DL operate a mainline base from Logan? It’ll be interesting to watch how the hub grows.


Most of the growth though has been regional growth. 55% of their flying is contracted regional flying. The TATL growth wouldn't warrant a base.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:17 am

catiii wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Interesting. Does DL operate a mainline base from Logan? It’ll be interesting to watch how the hub grows.


Most of the growth though has been regional growth. 55% of their flying is contracted regional flying. The TATL growth wouldn't warrant a base.


This I would agree with, right now only AMS, CDG and LHR get year round TATL service on DL metal so for 3-4 flights a day for 6-8 months of the year, no base needed. In the summer with Extra AMS and CDG, then LGW, MAN, FCO, DUB, LIS and EDI, that might get to a critical mass point to warrant a discussion, but.. I would believe that when I See it.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:17 am

catiii wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Interesting. Does DL operate a mainline base from Logan? It’ll be interesting to watch how the hub grows.


Most of the growth though has been regional growth. 55% of their flying is contracted regional flying. The TATL growth wouldn't warrant a base.


This I would agree with, right now only AMS, CDG and LHR get year round TATL service on DL metal so for 3-4 flights a day for 6-8 months of the year, no base needed. In the summer with Extra AMS and CDG, then LGW, MAN, FCO, DUB, LIS and EDI, that might get to a critical mass point to warrant a discussion, but.. I would believe that when I See it.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
catiii
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:27 am

VS4ever wrote:
catiii wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Interesting. Does DL operate a mainline base from Logan? It’ll be interesting to watch how the hub grows.


Most of the growth though has been regional growth. 55% of their flying is contracted regional flying. The TATL growth wouldn't warrant a base.


This I would agree with, right now only AMS, CDG and LHR get year round TATL service on DL metal so for 3-4 flights a day for 6-8 months of the year, no base needed. In the summer with Extra AMS and CDG, then LGW, MAN, FCO, DUB, LIS and EDI, that might get to a critical mass point to warrant a discussion, but.. I would believe that when I See it.


I imagine they'll just build a few 6 day trips to cover all that flying ex DTW, ATL, or JFK.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:44 am

SoEWR wrote:
Alitalia is trying to join the AF/KL/Delta JV last I heard.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ct-450560/
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
airbazar
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:35 pm

avi8 wrote:
Interesting. Does DL operate a mainline base from Logan? It’ll be interesting to watch how the hub grows.

There's no secret here. Just look at SEA and that will be BOS in a few years, but with a focus on the Atlantic instead of Asia.
jporterfi wrote:
I connected at BOS while flying LHR-BOS-YYZ on DL/WS. I had about 2.5 hours, and it was fairly easy to walk across the parking lot from Terminal A to Terminal E (although I was able to re-check my bag in Terminal A). However, I can see how it could be an issue with a tight connection, as I had to re-clear security in Terminal E.

For many years, my home airport was ATL, and this connection at BOS felt easier than the journey between concourses at ATL. For one thing, there were a lot fewer people at BOS!

BOS gets a bad rap as a connecting airport. Some of it is deserved due to its layout but most of it is perception rather than reality. The airport has changed significantly and it continues to improve. For some odd reason some people feel that long walks are only an issue when changing terminals. I don't see anyone ever complaining about long walks at places like ORD or JFK or AMS or LHR, all of which have connections that require longer walks than you will ever need in BOS.
For the purpose of this thread, the walk between terminal E and terminal A at BOS is no more than 10 minutes. But because you have to go up an escalator, and across a parking garage on moving walkways, then down another escalator, the perception is that "it's a long walk".

ScottB wrote:
The walk from E to A isn't terrible if the moving sidewalks are operating. If they were to have some flights depart from E, that would be problematic due to the need to reclear TSA. They could hypothetically offer a secure-side bus shuttle but the ride around the entire terminal complex would be time-consuming -- there's really no other way around.

Or DL could just pay for it's own TSA channel at terminal E during the busiest connecting hours.

FGITD wrote:
This is definitely not true. While maybe not an enormous number, there is definitely a good portion of passengers who connect from DL to the various international carriers

The number is at 8% of all DL's passengers according to an article that I read recently.

tphuang wrote:
B6 will have 30 gates + a lot of access to E and DL has 21 gates. How is DL going to catch up to B6?

Bigger planes flying intl routes is one way, either on their own metal or their partners. I also don't believe DL will stay at 21 gates. I have a sneaking suspicion that something is in the works to increase that number a few years down the road when they do need it. A recession could open up more space too.
Also keep in mind that one of the main goals for connecting all terminals post security is not just to make connections easier as BOS is not a major domestic hub but it's also to create elasticity in terminal utilization. With all terminals connected airlines can easily expand to the next terminal if there are under-utilized gates there. That is already in play today between terminals C and E. Massport has the authority to allocate under-utilized gates to another carrier under its "preferential gate use policy". That is why you see some international carriers use terminal C.
That is also why, IMO AA has all of sudden decided to add a few token flights from BOS after years of shrinking. With the C-to-B connector in the works and a A-to-B connector coming soon, they are under pressure to fully utilize their gates or risk lose some.
 
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:41 pm

airbazar wrote:

ScottB wrote:
The walk from E to A isn't terrible if the moving sidewalks are operating. If they were to have some flights depart from E, that would be problematic due to the need to reclear TSA. They could hypothetically offer a secure-side bus shuttle but the ride around the entire terminal complex would be time-consuming -- there's really no other way around.

Or DL could just pay for it's own TSA channel at terminal E during the busiest connecting hours.

FGITD wrote:
This is definitely not true. While maybe not an enormous number, there is definitely a good portion of passengers who connect from DL to the various international carriers

The number is at 8% of all DL's passengers according to an article that I read recently.


Better yet would be a "BOS Bus" a la the "JFK Jitney". Off the top of my head, JFK (T1 separated from T2/T3) and BOS are the only two hub/focus cities where SkyTeam isn't connected all behind security.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:27 pm

I connect through BOS quite often going RDU-BOS-XXX. It's quite convenient and also a significantly shorter flight to Europe than say ATL-Europe (if we're keeping the discussion about DL).
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ChrisNH38
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:36 pm

I see that almost all the DL transatlantic flights coming into BOS ‘lead’ all the other flights by a good hour or thereabouts. This is a huge competitive advantage, getting in before the customs wave really hits. I was wondering whether DL got to choose those arrival times on their own or whether government entities gave them those times?
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DL747400
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:03 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
SoEWR wrote:
Alitalia is trying to join the AF/KL/Delta JV last I heard.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ct-450560/


The above linked article is 18-months old and does not reflect the current ongoing saga at AZ while they try to determine their own direction as well as future partners. I seem to recall in the AZ thread that there was much more recent discussion about AZ being folded into the DL/AF/KL/VS transAtlantic JV, but that depends of course of what the Italian government does with AZ and whether DELTA takes a stake in the new AZ.

Back to BOS: What options does DELTA have to expand their operations beyond the currently envisioned 200 daily flights? If DELTA remains serious about continuing to grow BOS, they can continue to upgauge over time, but how and where could they possibly expand their gate footprint?
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YYZORD
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:03 pm

What is the ultimate capacity of BOS? Just want to get an idea how big DL can get there?
 
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VS4ever
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:19 pm

YYZORD wrote:
What is the ultimate capacity of BOS? Just want to get an idea how big DL can get there?


That’s a multi pronged question because it depends on what basis you say ultimate capacity.
DL has access to 20 gates plus A1 when WS isn’t using it. But right now there are constraints on A13, A14, A16 and A19 because of the TATL aircraft. So in theory if those were moved to E and 10 turns on 20 gates gives you 200 flights plus the 11 in E next summer so theoretical max is 211 plu say 4-5 more at A1 assuming no more space available in E, which there won’t be until the expansion is completed.

As for pax count that’s a bit more tricky due to the regional flying. Again in theory if you work on 205 in A on say your average 320/737 of around 160 per flight you could achieve 24m (205*2*160*365) but clearly with winter schedules and said regional flying that is virtually impossible to reach, that would equate to 150,000 movements a year on its own and would be an exceedingly tight and complicated operation given the “Alley” they have to work with (again theoretical) just like the total movements for BOS has a theoretical max of about 700,000 when right now as busy as it is we have around 425,000.

Per the last official Massport report (July 18 to July 19) DL mainline accounted for 5.6m pax. Sadly Massport do not breakout the regional flying into the specific airlines, but as a total it was 2.4m and that includes AA, UA, Cape air and DL flying. Let’s assume right now that DL is a large chunk of that at 60% of the total. That’s about 1.4m and would put them at around 7m vs B6’s state’s number over the same time period of nearly 12m, hence why many folks will tell you DL May get close to B6 in terms of number of departures, unless they abandon the regional flying completely and go all mainline, they will never catch up to B6.

http://www.massport.com/media/3425/mpa- ... -final.pdf (Page 152 is where I got the numbers above from )
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tphuang
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:43 pm

They are not getting to 200 flights with their current asset. And at the current rate of growth, BOS is going to be slot constrained at some point.

A little over 8 turns per gate seems to be close to where the limit is based on all the airline operation at BOS thus far. Over the summer, DL/WS were maxing out at 132 flights across the 16 gates and they had to delay the start of EWR/ORD/DCA because the new gates weren't ready. And they were doing a lot of pre-6am departures, which they don't do at other gate constrained airports like LAX and SEA.

But the most ignored limiting factor at BOS is how much B6 is also growing at the moment to counter DL growth. There is only so much growth the market can absorb. We've had a couple of quarters of negative domestic growth at BOS due to WN/AA/UA retreats from this fare war and that has caused yield to go up quite nicely in Q2/Q3. But that's about to change. DL added a little over 20 flights with their new gates. B6 is adding upward of 25% ASM YoY for next summer. That's a lot of growth from the largest 2 carriers. Remember when DL announced those additional BOS to Florida flights for the winter of 2020? Aside from MIA, they all got basically reduced back to the levels of 2019. There is only so much growth the market can support on a YoY basis.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:23 am

tphuang wrote:
They are not getting to 200 flights with their current asset. And at the current rate of growth, BOS is going to be slot constrained at some point.

A little over 8 turns per gate seems to be close to where the limit is based on all the airline operation at BOS thus far. Over the summer, DL/WS were maxing out at 132 flights across the 16 gates and they had to delay the start of EWR/ORD/DCA because the new gates weren't ready. And they were doing a lot of pre-6am departures, which they don't do at other gate constrained airports like LAX and SEA.

But the most ignored limiting factor at BOS is how much B6 is also growing at the moment to counter DL growth. There is only so much growth the market can absorb. We've had a couple of quarters of negative domestic growth at BOS due to WN/AA/UA retreats from this fare war and that has caused yield to go up quite nicely in Q2/Q3. But that's about to change. DL added a little over 20 flights with their new gates. B6 is adding upward of 25% ASM YoY for next summer. That's a lot of growth from the largest 2 carriers. Remember when DL announced those additional BOS to Florida flights for the winter of 2020? Aside from MIA, they all got basically reduced back to the levels of 2019. There is only so much growth the market can support on a YoY basis.


I have to differ a little but here, you are correct in saying that there have been a couple of months of negative growth because of WN’s retrenchment, but the ytd numbers despite that are back on track and up 2.7% for the year, partly fueled by DL’s regional expansion
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
Capn
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:36 am

Could someone list the total # of gates on B, and how many each airline on B has?
Thanks in advance,
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VS4ever
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:32 am

Capn wrote:
Could someone list the total # of gates on B, and how many each airline on B has?
Thanks in advance,


Air Canada (Sublease from AA) - 3
American - 18
United 9
Southwest - 5
Alaska 2
Spirit 2

Total 39, with one more to come when the B to C connector is built of those 39, 37 are leased. Although I suspect all 39 will be leased because AK will have switched there’s from C

At June 30 (time of Massports financial report, 32 out of 37 were leased because the 2 extra for WN were not finished yet and the 5 gates missing were out of service pending those builds.

How it roughly works is

AC- B1 to B3
AA- B4 to B22
UA- B23 to B31
WN- B31A, B32, B33, B34, B35
AK- B35A and B36
NK B37 and B38

Hope this helps
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:34 am

I don't think delta is really trying to catch up to B6. They know JetBlue will always be larger. They just see Boston large enough that they can have a smaller hub there also. More based on o&d focus .
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:41 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I don't think delta is really trying to catch up to B6. They know JetBlue will always be larger. They just see Boston large enough that they can have a smaller hub there also. More based on o&d focus .


Agree, same with SEA. Most people will just argue to wits end here that DL will never catch B6 and it isn't doing well, etc. But that misses the point. DL is building (investing in) a significant operation to (eventually) capture a premium and service its BOS customers and corporate contracts (similarly, to build out its corporate contracts nationally).
 
airbazar
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:45 pm

tphuang wrote:
They are not getting to 200 flights with their current asset. And at the current rate of growth, BOS is going to be slot constrained at some point.

A little over 8 turns per gate seems to be close to where the limit is based on all the airline operation at BOS thus far. Over the summer, DL/WS were maxing out at 132 flights across the 16 gates and they had to delay the start of EWR/ORD/DCA because the new gates weren't ready. And they were doing a lot of pre-6am departures, which they don't do at other gate constrained airports like LAX and SEA.

But the most ignored limiting factor at BOS is how much B6 is also growing at the moment to counter DL growth. There is only so much growth the market can absorb. We've had a couple of quarters of negative domestic growth at BOS due to WN/AA/UA retreats from this fare war and that has caused yield to go up quite nicely in Q2/Q3. But that's about to change. DL added a little over 20 flights with their new gates. B6 is adding upward of 25% ASM YoY for next summer. That's a lot of growth from the largest 2 carriers. Remember when DL announced those additional BOS to Florida flights for the winter of 2020? Aside from MIA, they all got basically reduced back to the levels of 2019. There is only so much growth the market can support on a YoY basis.

That all changes when the airline turns the station into a hub. TATL is not shrinking and JFK is more limited than BOS so until there's no more room in BOS, BOS will continue to grow for DL regardless of what is happening for WN/AA/UA.
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I don't think delta is really trying to catch up to B6. They know JetBlue will always be larger. They just see Boston large enough that they can have a smaller hub there also. More based on o&d focus .

Agree 100% I've been saying this for a couple of years. the game is not about catching B6. It's about making more money than B6. And if they can make more money with fewer flights they'll take that to the bank all day long.
 
tphuang
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:09 pm

airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They are not getting to 200 flights with their current asset. And at the current rate of growth, BOS is going to be slot constrained at some point.

A little over 8 turns per gate seems to be close to where the limit is based on all the airline operation at BOS thus far. Over the summer, DL/WS were maxing out at 132 flights across the 16 gates and they had to delay the start of EWR/ORD/DCA because the new gates weren't ready. And they were doing a lot of pre-6am departures, which they don't do at other gate constrained airports like LAX and SEA.

But the most ignored limiting factor at BOS is how much B6 is also growing at the moment to counter DL growth. There is only so much growth the market can absorb. We've had a couple of quarters of negative domestic growth at BOS due to WN/AA/UA retreats from this fare war and that has caused yield to go up quite nicely in Q2/Q3. But that's about to change. DL added a little over 20 flights with their new gates. B6 is adding upward of 25% ASM YoY for next summer. That's a lot of growth from the largest 2 carriers. Remember when DL announced those additional BOS to Florida flights for the winter of 2020? Aside from MIA, they all got basically reduced back to the levels of 2019. There is only so much growth the market can support on a YoY basis.

That all changes when the airline turns the station into a hub. TATL is not shrinking and JFK is more limited than BOS so until there's no more room in BOS, BOS will continue to grow for DL regardless of what is happening for WN/AA/UA.
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I don't think delta is really trying to catch up to B6. They know JetBlue will always be larger. They just see Boston large enough that they can have a smaller hub there also. More based on o&d focus .

Agree 100% I've been saying this for a couple of years. the game is not about catching B6. It's about making more money than B6. And if they can make more money with fewer flights they'll take that to the bank all day long.


Let's end this talk now. There is no shot DL will ever make more money at BOS than B6. If it even gets close to that point, B6 would be doing so badly that it would already have been acquired by someone else. DL right now can gain 10% in yield vs B6 and still be running lower margins.

Legacies need to have dominant market share to make money. They can't make money to non-hub destinations when they have to split ff and corporate contracts with other airlines. That's why LAX is such a bloodbath. BOS right now is a very low fare market due to B6 influence. I don't think you truly appreciate how low the fares are at BOS compared to other major cities. And it will stay that way as long as B6 controls pricing.
 
Capn
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Re: DL’s BOS Hub

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:52 pm

VS4ever wrote:
Capn wrote:
Could someone list the total # of gates on B, and how many each airline on B has?
Thanks in advance,


Air Canada (Sublease from AA) - 3
American - 18
United 9
Southwest - 5
Alaska 2
Spirit 2

Total 39, with one more to come when the B to C connector is built of those 39, 37 are leased. Although I suspect all 39 will be leased because AK will have switched there’s from C

At June 30 (time of Massports financial report, 32 out of 37 were leased because the 2 extra for WN were not finished yet and the 5 gates missing were out of service pending those builds.

How it roughly works is

AC- B1 to B3
AA- B4 to B22
UA- B23 to B31
WN- B31A, B32, B33, B34, B35
AK- B35A and B36
NK B37 and B38

Hope this helps


Thankyou VS, yes very helpful. I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel...
I also think airbazar, slcdeltarumd11, and jbs2886 are spot on.
Thanks again you guys sure make it an interesting thread.
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