United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

rabader · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:43 pm

Bloomberg is reporting that United is ordering 50 A321 XLR with deliveries starting in 2024

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-a321-jet

tlecam · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:46 pm

Just saw this on bloomberg as well. Is the thinking that UAL will use these from EWR and IAD (and maybe ORD?) to secondary european markets - e.g. a replacement for the 757 TATL routes?

x1234 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:46 pm

Nothing like EU to EWR/IAD/ORD expansion!

SonomaFlyer · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:46 pm

rabader wrote:
Bloomberg is reporting that United is ordering 50 A321 XLR with deliveries starting in 2024

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-a321-jet

Its about time such an order took place. Given this is a new variant of narrow body jet, does this open the door to additional RJ's under UA's SCOPE clause or is that limited to small(er) narrow body aircraft?

PHLspecial · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:47 pm

That's quite a headline. So much for the Max 10 TATL. If true that would be another win for Airbus!

seahawks7757 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:49 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
That's quite a headline. So much for the Max 10 TATL. If true that would be another win for Airbus!

The Max 10 order will stay. They’ll use it on other routes since it doesn’t have the range.

Runway28L · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 pm

IMO this was inevitable. That aircraft is gonna look great in the new livery.

PHLspecial · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 pm

Could we see the XLR on DEN-HNL in addition to EWR and IAD TATL?

strfyr51 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
rabader wrote:
Bloomberg is reporting that United is ordering 50 A321 XLR with deliveries starting in 2024

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-a321-jet

Its about time such an order took place. Given this is a new variant of narrow body jet, does this open the door to additional RJ's under UA's SCOPE clause or is that limited to small(er) narrow body aircraft?

I would bet NOT!!

alasizon · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:52 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
rabader wrote:
Bloomberg is reporting that United is ordering 50 A321 XLR with deliveries starting in 2024

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-a321-jet

Its about time such an order took place. Given this is a new variant of narrow body jet, does this open the door to additional RJ's under UA's SCOPE clause or is that limited to small(er) narrow body aircraft?

Nope, the only way to get more RJs is to add a new small narrowbody. A 321XLR will just be considered a 321 and gets UA nothing.

PHLspecial · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:53 pm

seahawks7757 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
That's quite a headline. So much for the Max 10 TATL. If true that would be another win for Airbus!

The Max 10 order will stay. They’ll use it on other routes since it doesn’t have the range.

I wasn't talking about UA canceling the MAX 10. I just remember on the anet forums UA using the Max10 on longer flights.

downdata · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:54 pm

Possible conversion of the A359 was mentioned on leeham, which is probably what got UA over the line. In anycase, a win for A as this opens the door for followup orders of the neo.

strfyr51 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:55 pm

50 A3321's should offset the 35 A350's already on order We already know the A320/A319's the A321 should be the toast of the town, Let's hope they perform that way..
Good move!!

Okcflyer · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:55 pm

PW or CFM?

tphuang · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:56 pm

I wonder if XLR will act as a gateway here for UA into the entire A320NEO series. Seems like A321NEO deal for domestic routes to make a lot of sense now.

1989worstyear · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:56 pm

downdata wrote:
Possible conversion of the A359 was mentioned on leeham, which is probably what got UA over the line. In anycase, a win for A as this opens the door for followup orders of the neo.

It makes me wonder what will replace the 77E's and 753's in the mid 20's.

strfyr51 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:57 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
That's quite a headline. So much for the Max 10 TATL. If true that would be another win for Airbus!

The Max 10 order will stay. They’ll use it on other routes since it doesn’t have the range.

I wasn't talking about UA canceling the MAX 10. I just remember on the anet forums UA using the Max10 on longer flights.

the MAX 10's aren't going anywhere.. I'll bet once the FAA get's over being Pissed? United might pick up a whole bunch of Max airplanes Cheap!!

RalXWB · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:03 pm

United ordering Airbus? What a shocker!

WkndWanderer · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:05 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:

The Max 10 order will stay. They’ll use it on other routes since it doesn’t have the range.

I wasn't talking about UA canceling the MAX 10. I just remember on the anet forums UA using the Max10 on longer flights.

the MAX 10's aren't going anywhere.. I'll bet once the FAA get's over being Pissed? United might pick up a whole bunch of Max airplanes Cheap!!

It seems like they would want some other planes smaller than the Max10 and A321 though. They'll have a lot of ~20+ yr old -800's and A320's by then and it seems like it would be a pretty hefty capacity jump to have most of those replaced by MAX10's. Taking on the used A319/320's and 73G's doesn't seem like the long term answer.

Phoenix757767 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:05 pm

alasizon wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
rabader wrote:
Bloomberg is reporting that United is ordering 50 A321 XLR with deliveries starting in 2024

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-a321-jet

Its about time such an order took place. Given this is a new variant of narrow body jet, does this open the door to additional RJ's under UA's SCOPE clause or is that limited to small(er) narrow body aircraft?

Nope, the only way to get more RJs is to add a new small narrowbody. A 321XLR will just be considered a 321 and gets UA nothing.

UA doesn’t fly the A321.

strfyr51 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:08 pm

tphuang wrote:
I wonder if XLR will act as a gateway here for UA into the A320Neo like A321NEO deal for domestic routes to make a lot of sense now.

I wouldn't put too much store in that, the A321's will only offset the A350's United had on order for the last 10 years.
If it turns out to be all that hot of an airplane? They might look at new A320's or A319's but one thing for sure. The A320 had better have Transcon Range and to fly to Hawaii from the West Coast. which means Boston to San Diego or FLL to SEA or IAD-ANC..

Polot · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:10 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:

Its about time such an order took place. Given this is a new variant of narrow body jet, does this open the door to additional RJ's under UA's SCOPE clause or is that limited to small(er) narrow body aircraft?

Nope, the only way to get more RJs is to add a new small narrowbody. A 321XLR will just be considered a 321 and gets UA nothing.

UA doesn’t fly the A321.

He never said they do. UA can only add more RJs if they add new SMALL narrow bodies. The A321XLR is not a small narrow body

airzona11 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:10 pm

tlecam wrote:
Just saw this on bloomberg as well. Is the thinking that UAL will use these from EWR and IAD (and maybe ORD?) to secondary european markets - e.g. a replacement for the 757 TATL routes?

There are such a few number of routes, 50 seems high.

That being said, how many on here who trash UA/US3 for transAtlantic 757s, will applaud the use of A321s?

tphuang · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:12 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I wonder if XLR will act as a gateway here for UA into the A320Neo like A321NEO deal for domestic routes to make a lot of sense now.

I wouldn't put too much store in that, the A321's will only offset the A350's United had on order for the last 10 years.
If it turns out to be all that hot of an airplane? They might look at new A320's or A319's but one thing for sure. The A320 had better have Transcon Range and to fly to Hawaii from the West Coast. which means Boston to San Diego or FLL to SEA or IAD-ANC..

What is your evidence A321 is only offsetting A350? replacing 45 A350-900 with 50 A321XLR is a huge loss for Airbus.

Why would they get A320 or A319 if they already have all the MAX8 on order? A321NEO is certainly the highest margined aircraft in the series and the most capable. A321NEO is already used by HA on all the west coast to HI route, replacing widebodies. It's allowed them to retain good margin even as WN entered the market.

TC957 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:12 pm

What else could UA have ordered to replace the 757's with ? Boeing has cocked up big time with this market sector with the NMA coming far too late.

fun2fly · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:13 pm

With 40 TATL configured 757's being refreshed starting this year, they will march on for 4-5 years and retire. UA orders 50 of these units to replace them probably hinting that there is some room for growth. Hope for the return of some of their former TATL CO 757 routes.

The PS configured 757's will be replaced with the 737MAX10.

Yes, this does put a fork in the NMA/MOM. Boeing either didn't have the market for it or could not get their XXit together in time. UA waited a long time for Boeing. Time to move on, I agree.

tphuang · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:14 pm

airzona11 wrote:

There are such a few number of routes, 50 seems high.

That being said, how many on here who trash UA/US3 for transAtlantic 757s, will applaud the use of A321s?

XLR will replace not just 757s, but also 767s and A330s. The economics for it is so much better than these other aircraft. The MAX can do all the domestic 757 missions. There really isn't that many TATL 757 routes that you would need 50 XLRs.

AaronPGH · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:14 pm

airzona11 wrote:

There are such a few number of routes, 50 seems high.

Are there? EWR to deep Europe, deep to SA, as well as expanded premium transcon and hawaii service. This is a pretty versatile plane. Seems like 50 would go quick.

P1aneMad · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:21 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

There are such a few number of routes, 50 seems high.

Are there? EWR to deep Europe, deep to SA, as well as expanded premium transcon and hawaii service. This is a pretty versatile plane. Seems like 50 would go quick.

Also IAD to deep Europe, ORD to most places of western Europe and of course from both of these hubs plus IAH to South America.

gregn21 · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:21 pm

That flattens any remaining chance of a potential MoM model from Boeing. Looks like they have all the closure they need to refocus on a clean sheet 737 replacement / NSA.

CriticalPoint · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:24 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
downdata wrote:
Possible conversion of the A359 was mentioned on leeham, which is probably what got UA over the line. In anycase, a win for A as this opens the door for followup orders of the neo.

It makes me wonder what will replace the 77E's and 753's in the mid 20's.

The 787-10 can better operate the less than 12hr 777 flights and the 787-9 can better operate the 12+ or the routes not needing a +40 seat boost. In the new Polaris configuration the 787-9 seats 19 less than a 777. I would bet UA goes up to 150 787s when all is said and done.

The 753 can wait for the NMA or the 764 can come beck in a domestic config and replace them.

tullamarine · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:25 pm

tphuang wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

There are such a few number of routes, 50 seems high.

That being said, how many on here who trash UA/US3 for transAtlantic 757s, will applaud the use of A321s?

XLR will replace not just 757s, but also 767s and A330s. The economics for it is so much better than these other aircraft. The MAX can do all the domestic 757 missions. There really isn't that many TATL 757 routes that you would need 50 XLRs.

The A330 is a lot more capacity than an A321XLR. If you need the capacity, A330/763s will be replaced by 787s or A330NEOs. These A321XLR will be able to do South American routes in addition to TATL so 50 seems about right as an initial order to replace everything the 757s do now except domestic.

xxcr · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:32 pm

i wonder what the seating will be like. Im assuming something similar to the current 752 (Non PS) layout.

IWMBH · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:37 pm

tphuang wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I wonder if XLR will act as a gateway here for UA into the A320Neo like A321NEO deal for domestic routes to make a lot of sense now.

I wouldn't put too much store in that, the A321's will only offset the A350's United had on order for the last 10 years.
If it turns out to be all that hot of an airplane? They might look at new A320's or A319's but one thing for sure. The A320 had better have Transcon Range and to fly to Hawaii from the West Coast. which means Boston to San Diego or FLL to SEA or IAD-ANC..

What is your evidence A321 is only offsetting A350? replacing 45 A350-900 with 50 A321XLR is a huge loss for Airbus.

This. I think UA has to come with something better if they want to cancel their A350 order and swap it for something else.

Congrats to Airbus the A321neo is doing amazing.

UA772IAD · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:37 pm

airzona11 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Just saw this on bloomberg as well. Is the thinking that UAL will use these from EWR and IAD (and maybe ORD?) to secondary european markets - e.g. a replacement for the 757 TATL routes?

There are such a few number of routes, 50 seems high.

That being said, how many on here who trash UA/US3 for transAtlantic 757s, will applaud the use of A321s?

Agreed. UA has utilized widebodies for many of the secondary (Non-Star hubs) cities in Europe. This post is from last year, but it shows the historical use of 757 fleet:

http://www.gcmap.com/featured/20180822

GE90man · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:37 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
PW or CFM?

I would guess CFM since the MAX fleet runs on CFMs.

MSPNWA · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:38 pm

A near 1 for 1 replacement of the 752s. I'm expecting the same missions, secondary TATL, Hawaii, and some domestic. If the 752 isn't flying it now, I don't expect the A321 to do it later.

Overall not at all surprising, especially if this involves A359 money. One half of my A359--->A321 conversion expectation is becoming public. Now to wait on the other half.

I chuckle at the media always calling an Airbus order as a setback for Boeing. This might actually be a big gain for Boeing when it's all said and done.

ikolkyo · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:40 pm

This tells me NMA is indeed not going forward and possibly that new single aisle aircraft will be Boeing’s next move.

CriticalPoint · Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:48 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
I chuckle at the media always calling an Airbus order as a setback for Boeing. This might actually be a big gain for Boeing when it's all said and done.

Agree on a big win for Boeing. I fully expect a new 1:1 replacement for the 777 in the form of 787-9/10. That will be 75+.

scbriml · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:02 am

strfyr51 wrote:
50 A3321's should offset the 35 A350's already on order We already know the A320/A319's the A321 should be the toast of the town, Let's hope they perform that way..
Good move!!

Except it's 45 A350s and an A321 is about half the price of an A350. And they have to keep RR happy as well.

Zinu · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:04 am

Official press release is here: https://hub.united.com/2019-12-03-united-airlines-sets-a-course-for-the-future-with-order-of-50-airbus-a321xlr-aircraft-2641509684.html

scbriml · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:07 am

It's official:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 68734.html

A350s deferred until 2027 to better fit operational needs.

They just can't bring themselves to cancel them. :rotfl:

Zinu · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:07 am

According to Jason Rabinowitz, the A350 delivery has been deferred to 2027 to better align with the carrier's operational needs.

adamblang · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:07 am

Company intranet says 45 A350-900 remain on the books for 2027.

Scarebus34 · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:14 am

350 order deferred until 2027. It’s fair to say those will never show up on property. UA will likely add more 787 at cheap price for MAX compensation.

concordeforever · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:15 am

In the press release it says "United plans to begin taking delivery of the Airbus A321XLR in 2024. Additionally, the airline will defer the delivery of its order of Airbus A350s until 2027 to better align with the carrier's operational needs."

So it doesn't look like they have replaced 45 A350s with 50 A321s to me, just deferred the latter again....

PHLspecial · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:15 am

Wow delaying the A350 until 2027. Wonder if the A350 neo will come out at that time. I guess the 77E is still young?

moyangmm · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:17 am

PHLspecial wrote:
Wow delaying the A350 until 2027. Wonder if the A350 neo will come out at that time. I guess the 77E is still young?

It doesn't matter whether neo will come out or not. Between now and 2027, United will keep buying more 787. A350 is just useless for UA.

ITSTours · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:19 am

I read the title of the thread, saw the authors of the Bloomberg news and believed this would be true. Justin Bachman and Julie Johnson are highly reliable sources.

And then I scrolled down, UA had already officially confirmed. Welp.

weekendppl · Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:19 am

PHLspecial wrote:
Could we see the XLR on DEN-HNL in addition to EWR and IAD TATL?

DEN-LIH and -KOA seems more likely since DEN-HNL and DEN-OGG are already using 772 vs DEN-LIH and -KOA which are using the 752.

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