ItnStln
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
I thought we read UA already had purchased A350 sims?

So did US/AA. Now DL pilots use their sim.
 
Pinto
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:30 pm

Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:24 pm

tphuang wrote:
Pinto wrote:
1. The posts says it will fit 170 so probably will have 16J. I would be surprised to see Premium Economy on these aircraft.

2. I think we will see United holdout on any WB order until we hear a an answer about a 767-X. They have a decent backlog of 787 orders. They also might want to see how long this MAX ordeal goes to try to get some discounts on some 787


Nothing prevents them from having 2 versions. 757-200 has a 16J and 28J version. Y+ is different from premium economy.

I think the TATL market will look a lot different 10 years from now. widebody was pretty common in transcon market before and now it's only reserved for a few flights on NYC-LAX/SFO market. Outside of LHR, a lot of the secondary market can be right sized to A321XLR or have additional flights. 767 has no place in this new reality. You either go with the real large suites (on A350/777) in business class that can get premium over the regular lie flats or you go with the lie flats in single aisle aircraft that's a lot more space efficient and lower cost. 4 in a row config like the ones on 767-width cabins don't have the real estate to compete against 4 in a row on 777.



EWR:

BFS
NCL
BHX
GLA
SNN
EDI
OSL Daily
CPH Daily
ARN Daily
AMS Second Daily
KEF
OPO
MAD Second Daily



IAD

MAD
AMS
DUB
VIE
FCO
WAW
PRG
BUD
BER
MAN

exactly what I'm talking about. XLR allows the subdaily to go daily. it allows you a second daily to be added to the market that can support them. And you can support year round service on the thin routes.

XLR will over time replace the need of many B767/787.


1) A321XLR is not going to replace the 767 anytime soon, if ever.
2) United can't just magically get slots at those airports, and some of of them like AMS and FRA getting second daily with a 767.
3) The A321XLR like you said will probably open up new secondary routes
4) Also the 767 and 777 in Unuted Polaris are pretty much the same minus 1-1-1 and 1-2-1 searing config
 
EWRamp
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:25 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
gokmengs wrote:
Congratulations to UA and Airbus. The XLR is a very capable plane and the only true 757 replacement. I am surprised they are going 1/1 with their 757 fleet and not adding. Also what is the obsession of some not wanting to see the 350 in the fleet? Variety is bad? Lucky me God bless TK they order everything:)
PS I find UA post merger very pro Boeing and their press release lingo is as if they only ordered Airbus because they had to and it was the only option, almost apologetic in a way. Its just my gut feeling. Disclaimer: I am not a fanboy of either A or B


I think the 737-10 will replace the 757-200 on P.S. Service, so I think it is a growth of the true international 757 Fleet!


The 737-10 is perfect for the EWR Caribbean and Central America routes.

EWR - PTY is notorious for 300+ bags on the 737-800 and 900ER

The real question is can the A321XLR handle Lima ?

EWR - LIM is known for 500+ bags on a 757. The XLR has the range but I doubt it’s taking 500 bags.


I feel like you're exaggerating these baggage numbers. While EWR to PTY and LIM are indeed heavy flights there's never been 300+ and 500+ to either city. PTY is usually around mid 200s and LIM just under 300.

PTY can be a MAX 9 and LIM the XLR with ease
 
JFKalumni
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:31 pm

EWRamp wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:

I think the 737-10 will replace the 757-200 on P.S. Service, so I think it is a growth of the true international 757 Fleet!


The 737-10 is perfect for the EWR Caribbean and Central America routes.

EWR - PTY is notorious for 300+ bags on the 737-800 and 900ER

The real question is can the A321XLR handle Lima ?

EWR - LIM is known for 500+ bags on a 757. The XLR has the range but I doubt it’s taking 500 bags.


I feel like you're exaggerating these baggage numbers. While EWR to PTY and LIM are indeed heavy flights there's never been 300+ and 500+ to either city. PTY is usually around mid 200s and LIM just under 300.

PTY can be a MAX 9 and LIM the XLR with ease


Feel free to look inside unimantic during the peak summer season for Lima 1095. PTY is always a 737 but the real question is can this A321XLR handle what we do at EWR
 
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Rifitto
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:10 pm

mjoelnir wrote:


You could also look at the Trent XWB, the most modern engine in the Trent line, and that has not had any difficulties in the 6 Years since EIS.

In the moment it is GE struggling with it's newest engine, having already considerably delayed the 777-9 flight testing.

It is anyway just pure speculation, that the A350, using the currently most modern engine in use, will need a new engine by 2027 to stay competitive.

UA has twice increased the order for the A350. I do not see any reason for them to cancel that order, but the clamoring of some posters here, that the world will collapse when UA takes Airbus wide bodies in use. I believe that UA is all about controlling CAPEX and has decided to use the current 777-200 fleet longer than earlier decided.
That is a decision, that can easily change again, if we see for example fuel prices rising again.


Primo : the RR XWB shares a lot of similarities with the trent family ,three shaft architecture architecture with conventional fan which RR perfected during the last 4 decades ,
the ultrafan is going to have a gearbox and a variable pitch fan ,it's a radical change from the trent family ,don't expect RR to nails it since the EIS ,that's a totally new design .

secundo :GE isn't struggling with the GE9X ,they encountered an issue and fixed it ,that's the usual things that happen during the test of any new product ,after the max crashs ,the medias tend to over-hype any issue related to boeing and make it look like a disaster .

The 350 actually has the last generation of engines of all widebodies and one of the most reliable ,
i simply don't see why would RR rush themselves and spend a boatload of money to replace their best and newest engine ,it's simply irrational

if the 350 is struggling to sell ,it's absolutely not the engine fault , the competition is savage from the 787 and the 339

any new engine will benefit the 787 especially the -10 which will gain the much needed extra range more than the already capable 350
finally i agree with you concerning UA's 350 order ,it's all speculation ,
nobody has a clue about what happened behind close doors between UA and airbus ,
but i still think UA is going to cancel the order sooner or later ,
they placed it a decade ago ,i don't see them taking the planes 17 years later
 
tommy1808
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:12 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
The real question is can the A321XLR handle Lima ?

EWR - LIM is known for 500+ bags on a 757. The XLR has the range but I doubt it’s taking 500 bags.


What makes you think the A321XLR won´t be taking 500 bags when the 757 can fit them? Its not like there is a large difference between cargo hold volumes, the Airbus has more, but the new center tank.takes some of it..... in the end its like 44 vs. 47 m3?

best regards
Thomas


As a lead who works on these planes everyday I know the Airbus is not going to handle the 500 heavy bags


500 50 lbs bags, and i would not count those as heavy, thats still 32Kg for me, plus passengers would exceed the payload capabilities of a 752. It just has so much more volume as the A321 and the capacity difference when bulk loading can not be bigger than the available volume. I would think United knows how much space they need, and bought it anyways.

This "The A321 isn´t a *real* 757 replacement" nonsense just has to stop.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
wn676
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:57 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
The real question is can the A321XLR handle Lima ?

EWR - LIM is known for 500+ bags on a 757. The XLR has the range but I doubt it’s taking 500 bags.


What makes you think the A321XLR won´t be taking 500 bags when the 757 can fit them? Its not like there is a large difference between cargo hold volumes, the Airbus has more, but the new center tank.takes some of it..... in the end its like 44 vs. 47 m3?

best regards
Thomas


As a lead who works on these planes everyday I know the Airbus is not going to handle the 500 heavy bags to Lima or the 340+ bags and freight to PTY. Passengers tend to hate the confined space of the 737 but the cargo compartments can fit everything. Ask my fellow UA guys here


If the details on the new rear fuel tank are true, the 321XLR should be equivalent in cargo volume to a 321CEO with two ACTs. I’ve bulked out quite a few of those. You can fit around 400 bags comfortably; that’s with a structural load limit in the aft compartments of 4,400 lbs. We usually had space leftover in the aft bin due to this so there’s some wiggle room in those numbers when it comes to checked bag sizes that differ from the average. Every flight is different though and the fine art of bag stacking is not every ramper’s cup of tea, so YMMV.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:10 pm

wn676 wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

What makes you think the A321XLR won´t be taking 500 bags when the 757 can fit them? Its not like there is a large difference between cargo hold volumes, the Airbus has more, but the new center tank.takes some of it..... in the end its like 44 vs. 47 m3?

best regards
Thomas


As a lead who works on these planes everyday I know the Airbus is not going to handle the 500 heavy bags to Lima or the 340+ bags and freight to PTY. Passengers tend to hate the confined space of the 737 but the cargo compartments can fit everything. Ask my fellow UA guys here


If the details on the new rear fuel tank are true, the 321XLR should be equivalent in cargo volume to a 321CEO with two ACTs. I’ve bulked out quite a few of those. You can fit around 400 bags comfortably; that’s with a structural load limit in the aft compartments of 4,400 lbs. We usually had space leftover in the aft bin due to this so there’s some wiggle room in those numbers when it comes to checked bag sizes that differ from the average. Every flight is different though and the fine art of bag stacking is not every ramper’s cup of tea, so YMMV.


Thank you!!!!!

People don’t realize you can have hundreds of checked bags and a passenger service rep upstairs sending a large number of unforeseen gate checks.

Not to mention skiing equipment, golf bags, music equipment and other item that can throw off the packing
 
mjoelnir
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:16 pm

Rifitto wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:


You could also look at the Trent XWB, the most modern engine in the Trent line, and that has not had any difficulties in the 6 Years since EIS.

In the moment it is GE struggling with it's newest engine, having already considerably delayed the 777-9 flight testing.

It is anyway just pure speculation, that the A350, using the currently most modern engine in use, will need a new engine by 2027 to stay competitive.

UA has twice increased the order for the A350. I do not see any reason for them to cancel that order, but the clamoring of some posters here, that the world will collapse when UA takes Airbus wide bodies in use. I believe that UA is all about controlling CAPEX and has decided to use the current 777-200 fleet longer than earlier decided.
That is a decision, that can easily change again, if we see for example fuel prices rising again.


Primo : the RR XWB shares a lot of similarities with the trent family ,three shaft architecture architecture with conventional fan which RR perfected during the last 4 decades ,
the ultrafan is going to have a gearbox and a variable pitch fan ,it's a radical change from the trent family ,don't expect RR to nails it since the EIS ,that's a totally new design .

secundo :GE isn't struggling with the GE9X ,they encountered an issue and fixed it ,that's the usual things that happen during the test of any new product ,after the max crashs ,the medias tend to over-hype any issue related to boeing and make it look like a disaster .

The 350 actually has the last generation of engines of all widebodies and one of the most reliable ,
i simply don't see why would RR rush themselves and spend a boatload of money to replace their best and newest engine ,it's simply irrational

if the 350 is struggling to sell ,it's absolutely not the engine fault , the competition is savage from the 787 and the 339

any new engine will benefit the 787 especially the -10 which will gain the much needed extra range more than the already capable 350
finally i agree with you concerning UA's 350 order ,it's all speculation ,
nobody has a clue about what happened behind close doors between UA and airbus ,
but i still think UA is going to cancel the order sooner or later ,
they placed it a decade ago ,i don't see them taking the planes 17 years later


GE is doing exactly that, struggling with the GE9X. The last problem is not the first that came up, other problems have delayed the time line already.
 
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PW100
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:29 pm

9Patch wrote:
PW100 wrote:

Will Airbus mind that?
Depends on the price for cancelling UA A350 on order (which, contrary to some jumping for joy still seems to be in the books and hasn't been cancelled). Depends on the orderbook for the A350. Depens on Airbus margins for placing the available slots (if they have not been placed yet).
So many questions to which I nor you have any insight on. The only thing we do know is that 45 A350s are still in Airbus order book (firm), and it is expected that cancellation of signed contract will carry penalties.


Actually, there are some who expect that a cancellation will NOT carry penalties.

Stitch wrote:
I would not be surprised if UA now has a no-penalty escape clause for the A350 (using the A321XLR order as leverage to get it) so if they do decide the family no longer works for them, there will be nothing holding them to the order.

.


Correct, you will find those (for the record, I woulld put Stitch in the top class of Anet posters).

But, there are also some (including myself) who think 50 321XLRs are worth only around 30-40% of 45 A350s. And based on that find the no-further-cancellation-penalty theory somewhat doubtful (unless connected to further future orders of any model).
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
strfyr51
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:19 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
downdata wrote:
Possible conversion of the A359 was mentioned on leeham, which is probably what got UA over the line. In anycase, a win for A as this opens the door for followup orders of the neo.


It makes me wonder what will replace the 77E's and 753's in the mid 20's.

it might well be whatever Boeing makes. But the A350;s are or should be in the running. CO isn't in power at UA anymore and they were Boeing centric, The management now? Is task driven and would probably want the best airplane for the given role. And that's going to be the defining factor..
 
strfyr51
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:45 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
MaxiAir wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
By 2027, the 77W are nearing beginning of their replacement era. I can see conversion to A35K’s for delivery later in the decade. Direct replacements of 77W (with a small loss of seats due to 9ab instead of 10ab), and some up-gauging of 772 routes.


When has United replaced aircraft only 10 years old? The last 45 77E though are approaching nearly 30 years of age by then and could still be the replacement target for the A350s.

Some 789 to replace the earlier 772 and 77E seem likely though.


Was thinking the first 77W’s were delivered in 2014 but it was 2016 instead.

You’re correct the first frames would displace the remaining 772’s not replaced by 787’s yet. But soon there after the 77W are gone. They won’t last 15+ years due to being uncompetitive cost wise at that time. Much shorter life span than normal for them due their aging technology.


'what are you talking about?? Exactly When has United EVER retired a fleet that still has life in it? They've sold airplanes that were readily taken by other carriers because United is anal about matched cockpits. And other airlines and freight haulers like that as well. You must think they won't or don't do any upgrades except interiors. The older 777's had ELMS cabinets that controlled Avionics, the newer 777's have AIMS Cabinets that use computer Blades like the IBM mainframes. And the avionics is superb!! It's not going out of date anytime soon and United won't just be retiring any airplanes before their time, Of that I'm sure of and you can be sure of unless they get a damn good offer they can't refuse like Airbus installing GE engines on the A350 in the next few years? That would CERTAINLY change the game for sure!
'
 
Baldr
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:44 pm

Rifitto wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

How can you order something that doesn't exist?

Initial orders are often discussed before planes are announced. Kind of like UAL and DL saying they wanted to be launch customers of NMA. How can those CEOs push toward an NMA order if it hasn’t been formally announced? Customers drive development. If customers are all hounding AB for a 350NEO saying they’d buy it if they build it, then that is “pushing towards an order,” wouldn’t you say? He didn’t ask if they were ordering them...those are words you used.


Making an order and saying we want such an aircraft is two different things ,DL and UA don't have a firm orders for the NMA ,UA and the 350 is another story
your argument is not valid
RR is struggling to fix an engine launched 16 years ago and first run in 2006,how on earth could someone expect them to design ,develop ,certificate and deliver an all new engine in such tight timetable ? NOWAY
they couldn't fix the mess with the conventional T1000 which based on the older T900 ,imagine with all the new techs going to be introduced to the ultrafan
it's insane how people see the ultrafan as the magic solution that is going to make the 350 a hot seller


Aerospace programmes often run into trouble when optimistic scenarios are used as baselines in order to win approval. In addition, technical, functional and financial risks may not be identified, integrated into schedules and managed effectively. These challenges create a vicious cycle of sub-par program performance. If you enter production prematurely in a schedule-driven programme and develop problems, it's typically going to lead to cost overruns, a never ending cycle of technical problems and it will end up costing you substantially more in financial, labour and material resources than what's typically the case for a conservatively scheduled programme.

Cases in point:

A) The 787 was a schedule-driven programme. It ended up costing some $25 billion in R&D + Boeing still has some $20 billion of deferred production costs to amortize.

B) The A350XWB was a conservatively scheduled programme. It ended up costing some €15 billion ($16.6 billion) in R&D.

Now, let's look at the Trent-1000 engine on the 787 and the Trent XWB engine on the A350 XWB:

The Trent 1000 completed its first testbed run on 22 February, 2006. Thus, only 22 months separated the official launch of the 787 programme (26 April, 2004) and the first testbed run for the 787.

In contrast, the Trent XWB-84 completed it first test bed run on 14 June, 2010. Thus, 42 months separated the official launch of the A350 XWB programme (1 December, 2006) and the first testbed run for the A350 XWB.

22 months vs. 42 months -- that says it all really, doesn't it?

It appears, therefore, that the Trent-1000 development programme was schedule-driven, while the Trent XWB development programme was a conservatively scheduled programme.

Hence, time pressures put on RR and its engineers on developing the Trent 1000 were induced by the 787 development schedule that was set by Boeing. So, the root cause of the cycle of technical problems with the Trent 1000 should IMJ be pinned on Boeing.

Rolls Royce is, of course, responsible for their products. Their biggest mistake with the Trent-1000 is perhaps that they didn't say no to Boeing in the first place; telling them off on the grounds that the development schedule for the 787 was totally unrealistic.

In contrast, the Trent XWB engine was, according to Rolls Royce, the most intense/comprehensive development programme ever undertaken by the company -- and it appears to be highly reliable:

As it approaches five years in service, the Trent XWB, the world’s most efficient large aero engine, has now achieved more than five million flying hours in service with 29 operators flying to 130 destinations and demonstrated an excellent dispatch reliability of 99.9 per cent.


https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2019/18-11-19-emirates-confirms-order-of-rolls-royce-trent-xwb-engines.aspx

-

Rifotto said: .... they couldn't fix the mess with the conventional T1000 which based on the older T900 ,imagine with all the new techs going to be introduced to the ultrafan
it's insane how people see the ultrafan as the magic solution that is going to make the 350 a hot seller


Again, only 22 months separated the official launch of the 787 programme (26 April, 2004) and the first testbed run for the 787.

Comparing, therefore, the UltraFan engine development with the initially botched development of the Trent 1000 -- that was caused by the ridiculously short 787 schedule-driven development set by Boeing -- is rather silly (to put it mildly).

In contrast to the Trent 1000, the development of the UltraFan protype engine is a decade long undertaking. In fact, the development of the UltraFan engine is unprecedented in the history of aero engine developments for civilian purposes. In fact, I can't think of any similar project/programme undertaken that's not been financed by the public purse, since aero engine development programmes are typically undertaken for only a specific application. For sure, P&W spent a long time developing their GTF, but they seem to have largely ignored developing much of the rest of the engine.

Banking on the notion espoused by President John F. Kennedy that “the time to repair the roof is when the Sun is shining,” Rolls is acting now to ensure its competitiveness for the next round of airliner developments from the end of the decade and beyond. Ric Parker, director of research and technology at Rolls, says that thanks to the A350 and 787 engine programs, “we are in an amazing position today.” At the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Joint Propulsion Conference in Cleveland in late July, Parker also noted that the company’s strategy closely monitors the point “where evolution gives up and revolution takes over.” For the near term, the plan remains focused on the former, and the next steps will therefore be based on two more evolutions of the well-proven three-shaft heritage. “At Rolls-Royce we say, ‘invent once and use many times,’” adds Parker.


https://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/rolls-royce-details-advance-and-ultrafan-test-plan

-

Rifotto said: Making an order and saying we want such an aircraft is two different things ,DL and UA don't have a firm orders for the NMA ,UA and the 350 is another story
your argument is not valid
RR is struggling to fix an engine launched 16 years ago and first run in 2006,how on earth could someone expect them to design ,develop ,certificate and deliver an all new engine in such tight timetable ? NOWAY


The prototype UltraFan engine is planned to be run in a testbed in 2021 and is scheduled to be hung from RR's new 747 testbed aircraft for flight testing in 2023.

With an A350neo programme launch in 2021, United Airlines should be able to get an A350-900neo instead of an A350-900ceo in 2027.
Last edited by Baldr on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 764
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:01 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
MaxiAir wrote:

When has United replaced aircraft only 10 years old? The last 45 77E though are approaching nearly 30 years of age by then and could still be the replacement target for the A350s.

Some 789 to replace the earlier 772 and 77E seem likely though.


Was thinking the first 77W’s were delivered in 2014 but it was 2016 instead.

You’re correct the first frames would displace the remaining 772’s not replaced by 787’s yet. But soon there after the 77W are gone. They won’t last 15+ years due to being uncompetitive cost wise at that time. Much shorter life span than normal for them due their aging technology.


'what are you talking about?? Exactly When has United EVER retired a fleet that still has life in it? They've sold airplanes that were readily taken by other carriers because United is anal about matched cockpits. And other airlines and freight haulers like that as well. You must think they won't or don't do any upgrades except interiors. The older 777's had ELMS cabinets that controlled Avionics, the newer 777's have AIMS Cabinets that use computer Blades like the IBM mainframes. And the avionics is superb!! It's not going out of date anytime soon and United won't just be retiring any airplanes before their time, Of that I'm sure of and you can be sure of unless they get a damn good offer they can't refuse like Airbus installing GE engines on the A350 in the next few years? That would CERTAINLY change the game for sure!
'


I think the question is mainly about the oldest 777's from 94-00ish.

They're the same exact age as the RR 752's and will be geriatric by the time the A350's are being delivered. Agreed about the 77W's living long lives though.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
Scarebus34
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:48 pm

Kirby is in charge now - he loves Airbus. Hopefully we'll see a lot more orders for the bus.
 
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scbriml
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
unless they get a damn good offer they can't refuse like Airbus installing GE engines on the A350 in the next few years? That would CERTAINLY change the game for sure!


Presumably United has some sort of contract with Rolls for the provision of 90 engines to fit under the wings of those 45 A350s. Why would Rolls allow United to walk away from that for nothing? As is quite fashionable at the moment, there would need to be some quid pro quo.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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scbriml
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:24 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
Kirby is in charge now - he loves Airbus. Hopefully we'll see a lot more orders for the bus.


Wash your mouth out at once! :wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Sokes
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:45 pm

airbazar wrote:
IIRC UA flies 752's on TATL routes to LHR and CDG among other destinations. They do so for the frequencies. They can carry the bulk of the Y passengers on the larger widebody planes and throw in an extra frequency or two on a smaller narrowbody to satisfy premium demand. That's what they've been doing for years so why wouldn't they keep doing it or even increase that practice with a plane that is 25% more fuel efficient?


That makes sense.
I was wondering if same is true for B767. This is what google had to say:
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... iguration/


Baldr wrote:
Aerospace programmes often run into trouble when optimistic scenarios are used as baselines in order to win approval. In addition, technical, functional and financial risks may not be identified, integrated into schedules and managed effectively. These challenges create a vicious cycle of sub-par program performance. If you enter production prematurely in a schedule-driven programme and develop problems, it's typically going to lead to cost overruns, a never ending cycle of technical problems and it will end up costing you substantially more in financial, labour and material resources than what's typically the case for a conservatively scheduled programme.
...
The prototype UltraFan engine is planned to be run in a testbed in 2021 and is scheduled to be hung from RR's new 747 testbed aircraft for flight testing in 2023.

With an A350neo programme launch in 2021, United Airlines should be able to get an A350-900neo instead of an A350-900ceo in 2027.


Fantastic post. Thanks.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
speedbird52
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:30 am

Does the NMA have a customer base left? A couple years back I would have easily said that it could make it, but at this point I don't see who would buy it. United, Delta, and American were always going to be the three biggest customers, and all except Delta seem to have found alternative solutions.
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:13 am

speedbird52 wrote:
United, Delta, and American were always going to be the three biggest customers, and all except Delta seem to have found alternative solutions.


Delta may already have their solution - they have 100 A321neo on order. I'd be very surprised if they didn't have the option to convert to LR or XLR frames (for a fee, obviously).
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:13 pm

I WISH I WAS 35 AGAIN! (23 years ago)
Starting at age 34/35 I was flying on average 200,000 to 250,000 miles a year given the job I had. The bulk of that flying (about 50%) were to 3 destinations: NYC to LHR/GVA/GIG. The other half were a total combination of almost anything: NYC to NRT/SYD/SIN/HKG/ZRH/AMS/BOM and Moscow and other less major cities. (domestically it was mostly NYC: SFO & ORD) - the other half were pop-up urgent or unusual (often vacation ruining) trips: Ex: Client calls and says “I need you to join us in Frankfurt or London or Singapore” or a secondary or unusual place. Many times I might not be home in NYC when the email or call cane in. Often I would already be in Rio/SP or GVA or HKG. Clients paid no mind to cost back then. (Although full fare FIRST was never permitted) - that was my life (yes, I loved it) and I’m certain other sky warriors had very different experiences. I always stuck with United/Star Alliance. But, while the first 50% were easy O&D many times off-site meetings would NOT be in a major business city and I see the XLR as an amazing answer to what was back then an initial long haul widebody with 3-5 hours on a 737 or A320 (sometimes a 752 on UA) in a not that comfortable seat - if major global companies are still behaving like this, I for one can say that the pain points are long layovers and a leg of 3+ hours sitting in a domestic F seat after an ULH. Luxury was nice (if SQ was the answer) but simplicity and comfort were paramount. It was also a time of many angled lie flats that really sucked, or worse an airline still using recliners on a long haul. TODAY that problem is mostly gone. I recall how UA’s new ITPE lie flat business was a “spectacular” life changing moment (believe it or not) over LH’s angled lie flat, etc. The best thing about UA (while so many other things were horribly bad, like food and lounges) I was often upgraded to First. (I recall how so many people loved the new Continental for its great customer service, nicer on board atmosphere but the BF seat was atrocious and there was no First to move up to. (And no 747’s!)

I don’t (sadly) travel like that at 58 years old and have a very different job. I need to find ways to make trips happen. But the reason I chose UA was its generous upgrade ability)

If United makes the MOST out of these XLR’s and their target does seem to be people like “me” when “I” was aged 35 to 50, I would be thrilled if I could fly nonstop or need to change planes at FRA or LHR or GRU or NRT or SFO, on an XLR with with a “Polars-like” l flat bed. What I do not yet know or understand is her range capability. Will other international carriers have XLR’s with a good lie flat to do a 3, 4, 5 hour flight because hardcore business fliers need to sleep, work or even chill - especially if they just arrived (or about to start) a long, tiring trip- often overwhelmed with work or often being away from home and loved ones.
So a flight from SIN to EWR or GIG to FCO or simply a RT nonstop EWR/IAD to Eastern Europe.

Really I don’t know what 170 person XLR configured with 16J & PE seat range is vs a 752? IS she more capable for deeper Europe or deeper South America routes? Can an XLR make to Prague or GRU/GIG? With the Polaris Lounge and Polaris amenities an XLR nonstop IS a game changer even if the hard product isn’t a 77W Polaris seat, but something sleep friendly and IFE similar. If so, United should get more. If so the XLR will help United become the premier business flier airline.
(Especially when the new “huge” UC opens at EWR!)

LAST: What is an “ULTRA FAN” and what will it do, example: impact range or efficiency or both?
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:53 pm

Thanks everyone! And to all the sky warriors of the future- I envy you all. The world is a fabulous place, and you will get flying machines I will probably miss!! !
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:13 pm

VC10er wrote:
Thanks everyone! And to all the sky warriors of the future- I envy you all. The world is a fabulous place, and you will get flying machines I will probably miss!! !

I will not miss those paper thin Y seats, though!
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:44 pm

thewizbizman wrote:
Thats a very, very brash assumption. DL was most hyped about the NMA anyway. If i recall correct UA never expressed much interest. Also just because they ordered the 321, does not mean they wont order the NMA.

Also Boeing may be shifting focus to the proposed FSA.


No the assumption isn't brash UA has expressed a lot of interest in Boeing's NMA it is one of the reasons why a 757 replacement order took so long UA was giving Boeing time to make a decision on the NMA. Just as recently as this past July UA asked Boeing for clarity on the NMA but Boeing continues to delay making a final decision on whether to launch the NMA.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ma-459767/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-456472/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-455456/
https://airlinerwatch.com/united-is-on- ... a-program/
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... lines-797/

UA has expressed interest in the NMA ever since Boeing first started talking about an NMA. In fact there is one article that dates back to August 2016 talking about the then A321LR (there was no XLR talk in 2016) but even back then Airbus was trying to convince UA to order A321LRs. UA didn't because Boeing in 2016 was beginning to talk about developing a NMA as a 757 replacement and to combat the A321LR. UA has been with Boeing and their NMA program since the very beginning but we are about 3 weeks away from 2020 and Boeing still hasn't made a final decision on the NMA which means there is no way the NMA will be ready for launch in 2025. UA has been more than patience with Boeing has given Boeing a tremendous about of time to make a final decision about the NMA as still to the day Boeing continues to say we are studying the market. While 50 A321XLRs is a small order and there could still be an NMA order or an A321XLR/NEO top up order. UA's 50 frame order is a shot across Boeings bow. UA is letting Boeing know they can not wait indefinitely for an NMA decision and will turn to Airbus if Boeing continues to drag out this process.

https://www.mro-network.com/airframes/d ... ft-segment
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:11 pm

jayunited wrote:
While 50 A321XLRs is a small order and there could still be an NMA order or an A321XLR/NEO top up order. UA's 50 frame order is a shot across Boeings bow.

Wow, says a lot about current avaiation industry when 50 Jets are a small order to make a shot across boeing`s bow.
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:27 pm

jayunited wrote:
No the assumption isn't brash UA has expressed a lot of interest in Boeing's NMA it is one of the reasons why a 757 replacement order took so long UA was giving Boeing time to make a decision on the NMA. Just as recently as this past July UA asked Boeing for clarity on the NMA but Boeing continues to delay making a final decision on whether to launch the NMA.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ma-459767/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-456472/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-455456/
https://airlinerwatch.com/united-is-on- ... a-program/
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... lines-797/

UA has expressed interest in the NMA ever since Boeing first started talking about an NMA. In fact there is one article that dates back to August 2016 talking about the then A321LR (there was no XLR talk in 2016) but even back then Airbus was trying to convince UA to order A321LRs. UA didn't because Boeing in 2016 was beginning to talk about developing a NMA as a 757 replacement and to combat the A321LR. UA has been with Boeing and their NMA program since the very beginning but we are about 3 weeks away from 2020 and Boeing still hasn't made a final decision on the NMA which means there is no way the NMA will be ready for launch in 2025. UA has been more than patience with Boeing has given Boeing a tremendous about of time to make a final decision about the NMA as still to the day Boeing continues to say we are studying the market. While 50 A321XLRs is a small order and there could still be an NMA order or an A321XLR/NEO top up order. UA's 50 frame order is a shot across Boeings bow. UA is letting Boeing know they can not wait indefinitely for an NMA decision and will turn to Airbus if Boeing continues to drag out this process.

https://www.mro-network.com/airframes/d ... ft-segment

Solid, well researched post, the kind I like.

So, suppose MAX has initial RTS in Q1 2020 and Boeing issues ATO but not program launch in Q2-Q3 2020: what are the odds that UA makes a commitment?

In the other thread I linked to https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardabo ... 6c1ad639e8 which makes a good point that Boeing really MUST make a response in this space, be it NMA or FSA. Ironically, IMO the A321 order makes UA less likely to take FSA but still allows a gap that NMA may fill, however the article says that Boeing may choose to do neither and try to heal the damage to its balance sheet that MAX caused.
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:48 pm

I think if the XLR is able to take ~50% of the NMA market, a new design has no business case and it seems the XLR is able to do just that. Imho the only option is the FSA family.
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:58 pm

jayunited wrote:
While 50 A321XLRs is a small order and there could still be an NMA order or an A321XLR/NEO top up order. UA's 50 frame order is a shot across Boeings bow. UA is letting Boeing know they can not wait indefinitely for an NMA decision and will turn to Airbus if Boeing continues to drag out this process.


Aside from the huge significance of it, an order for 50 of the largest single-aisle planes available hardly constitutes a 'small order' and spending around $3.5billion (at discounted prices) is a very expensive way to ask Boeing to hurry up.
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
In the other thread I linked to https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardabo ... 6c1ad639e8 which makes a good point that Boeing really MUST make a response in this space, be it NMA or FSA. Ironically, IMO the A321 order makes UA less likely to take FSA but still allows a gap that NMA may fill, however the article says that Boeing may choose to do neither and try to heal the damage to its balance sheet that MAX caused.


Boeing choosing to do neither is very much in line with its past behavior. In view of the MAX mess, I don’t see them willing or able to invest in anything major for the time being.
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:09 pm

VC10er wrote:
I
Really I don’t know what 170 person XLR configured with 16J & PE seat range is vs a 752? IS she more capable for deeper Europe or deeper South America routes? Can an XLR make to Prague or GRU/GIG?


I think in the real world the XLR will deliver what was promised with the LR: around 4.000nm. That takes you from EWR to WAW, PRG, VIE, HEL and even BUD, BUD being at the edge with possible problems in winter.
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:56 pm

MOM as a small widebody is dead, but the MOM "market" will be addressed by Boeing with the NSA / FSA / 737 replacement, which I am in agreement with astuteman will likely launch with the stretched model first followed by the baseline because the upper end of the market is where a fair bit of the action is at the moment and the 737-8 is still a solid ~150-180 seater vis-a-vis the A320neo.
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:35 pm

DLHAM wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I
Really I don’t know what 170 person XLR configured with 16J & PE seat range is vs a 752? IS she more capable for deeper Europe or deeper South America routes? Can an XLR make to Prague or GRU/GIG?


I think in the real world the XLR will deliver what was promised with the LR: around 4.000nm. That takes you from EWR to WAW, PRG, VIE, HEL and even BUD, BUD being at the edge with possible problems in winter.


The A321LR matches the range capabilities of the 757-200. The A321XLR will exceed them considerably.
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:43 pm

[quote="o0OOO0oChris"
Wow, says a lot about current avaiation industry when 50 Jets are a small order to make a shot across boeing`s bow.[/quote]

50 Jets is a small order there are articles out there saying UA could have a need for 120-140 aircraft the size of the NMA's and DL need could top 200 NMA's.

Both these airlines have expressed real interest in Boeings NMA. UA only ordered 50 jets, UA still hasn't order a replacement for any of our 763s. So when I say 50 jets is a small order, I'm looking at the bigger picture and 50 A321XLRs does cover half of of UA's future needs for an aircraft the size of Boeings proposed NMA. Thus order 50 jets is a shot across Boeing's bow letting Boeing know time to make a decision is running out and Airbus is just waiting to cash in.

I don't think the door is close to Boeings NMA but come 2025 UA needs to start retiring some of these older jets in our fleet. With no decision on the NMA is not possible for the NMA to be in service by 2025 but this order for 50 A321XLRs doesn't mean there is no future for an NMA in UA's fleet it just means UA can at least start retiring some of the oldest 752s in our fleet starting in 2025.
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:56 pm

jayunited wrote:
this order for 50 A321XLRs doesn't mean there is no future for an NMA in UA's fleet it just means UA can at least start retiring some of the oldest 752s in our fleet starting in 2025.


The business case for NMA didn't look like it stacked up for Boeing before the A321XLR orders took off.
If Boeing don't (can't) launch an NMA "767 replacement" because there is no business case, then there's not going to be an NMA "767 replacement" in the UA fleet, is there?

In that sense the A321XLR orders could well mean there's no future for an NMA in UA's fleet.

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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:26 am

Any guesses on what United will use for Polaris on their A321XLRs (or is it a bit too early to ask)? So far the airlines that operate the A321LR have put two seats on their aircraft, which are the Collins Diamond on La Compagnie (which United has on their 757s, although the seat is currently outdated and will be even more outdated in 5 years) and the Thompson Vantage on EI, TP, and KC, along with B6 on their Mint 321ceos. Other good guesses would also include the Thompson Vantage Solo which has all aisle access or possibly even a modified version of their current Polaris/Safran Optima seats. However, I could also see United coming up with something customized for their A321XLRs.

I also wonder if United would opt to fit their A321XLRs with Premium Plus, which would be pretty much the same as domestic economy - American hinted that they might fit their A321XLRs with premium economy and SAS will do it with their A321LRs next year. Again, United will only take delivery of their A321XLRs in 2024, so it's still pretty far out, although I'm sure that United will start thinking about how to outfit the aircraft pretty soon.
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:59 am

jagraham wrote:
UA does not have A330s

....anymore. ;)


KFLLCFII wrote:
Highly un-shocked at XLR.

^ This


TTailedTiger wrote:
The 757 is known as the Ferrari. No one buys a Ferrari for it's cost efficiency. But both the 757 and Ferrari are a hell of a ride. Neither the boring 737 or 320 will ever give such a feeling.

Just like nobody buys a commercial aircraft for a "feeling." :boggled:
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:09 am

LAX772LR wrote:
jagraham wrote:
UA does not have A330s

....anymore. ;)

When did UA ever had A330s?
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:16 am

WayexTDI wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
jagraham wrote:
UA does not have A330s

....anymore. ;)

When did UA ever had A330s?


UA owned three (I think) that were leased to Air Canada. UA never operated the A330 series itself.
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:41 am

flee wrote:
IIRC, RR has already tested the Advance and Advance 2 cores for the UltraFan. So, lets see if they can keep up the progress.


More than that even. The Trent 1000TEN includes technology from the Advance3. The ALPS is already being tested too.
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:45 am

ATAnalysis wrote:
Any guesses on what United will use for Polaris on their A321XLRs (or is it a bit too early to ask)? So far the airlines that operate the A321LR have put two seats on their aircraft, which are the Collins Diamond on La Compagnie (which United has on their 757s, although the seat is currently outdated and will be even more outdated in 5 years) and the Thompson Vantage on EI, TP, and KC, along with B6 on their Mint 321ceos. Other good guesses would also include the Thompson Vantage Solo which has all aisle access or possibly even a modified version of their current Polaris/Safran Optima seats. However, I could also see United coming up with something customized for their A321XLRs.

I also wonder if United would opt to fit their A321XLRs with Premium Plus, which would be pretty much the same as domestic economy - American hinted that they might fit their A321XLRs with premium economy and SAS will do it with their A321LRs next year. Again, United will only take delivery of their A321XLRs in 2024, so it's still pretty far out, although I'm sure that United will start thinking about how to outfit the aircraft pretty soon.

I would doubt that you see premium plus on the 321XLR - they have stated they will fit 170 seats which is just 1 more than the 757. So it's highly unlikely.
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:51 am

Baldr wrote:
Hence, time pressures put on RR and its engineers on developing the Trent 1000 were induced by the 787 development schedule that was set by Boeing. So, the root cause of the cycle of technical problems with the Trent 1000 should IMJ be pinned on Boeing.

Rolls Royce is, of course, responsible for their products. Their biggest mistake with the Trent-1000 is perhaps that they didn't say no to Boeing in the first place; telling them off on the grounds that the development schedule for the 787 was totally unrealistic.


But RR said YES. That's pinned on RR. GE was working under the same development schedule and didn't enter "never ending cycle of technical problems." If RR needed more time they should have taken it and not created "a vicious cycle of sub-par program performance."

Furthermore, the 787 delays means both RR and GE had an extra three years to work on it. Here we are eight years after EIS and RR still can't get it right.
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:39 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
The 757 is known as the Ferrari. No one buys a Ferrari for it's cost efficiency. But both the 757 and Ferrari are a hell of a ride. Neither the boring 737 or 320 will ever give such a feeling.


What?! :confused:


A Ferrari is a fast ride. Not exactly the most comfortable ride.
Businesses and especially airlines survive by efficiency! An airline is an extremely competitive and risky business.
Despite what some here think, Airlines dont buy planes based on "feelings" and manufacturers don't build planes for "ego"(A380). Money does not flow like water. A LOT of money, resources, and time is put into market research and development. Peoples jobs and livelihoods go on the line. All the way down to the business that produces the rivets. Just because a business's revenue is millions or billions doesn't mean the finances and operations are handled any differently to a mom and pop shop. It's just on a much larger scale. It's more complicated because they are accountable to taxpayers, shareholders, investors and board members. Their profit is what allows them to stay in business.
 
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:47 am

Slug71 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
The 757 is known as the Ferrari. No one buys a Ferrari for it's cost efficiency. But both the 757 and Ferrari are a hell of a ride. Neither the boring 737 or 320 will ever give such a feeling.


What?! :confused:


A Ferrari is a fast ride. Not exactly the most comfortable ride.
Businesses and especially airlines survive by efficiency! An airline is an extremely competitive and risky business.
Despite what some here think, Airlines dont buy planes based on "feelings" and manufacturers don't build planes for "ego"(A380). Money does not flow like water. A LOT of money, resources, and time is put into market research and development. Peoples jobs and livelihoods go on the line. All the way down to the business that produces the rivets. Just because a business's revenue is millions or billions doesn't mean the finances and operations are handled any differently to a mom and pop shop. It's just on a much larger scale. It's more complicated because they are accountable to taxpayers, shareholders, investors and board members. Their profit is what allows them to stay in business.


I don't care about any of that. The airline doesn't care about me and I don't care about them. The 757 is a fun ride. I'm not sure why you are reading so much into my post.
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:31 am

I also ask how United buying A321s to replace 752s 1:1 impacts the NMA, which is targeted at the fleet of 75 or so 753/763/764s that United has?

Or the 90+ similar sized planes DL have? It’s AA where Boeing missed the boat, though to some extent the 788 filled the 763 void with AA so is it a loss?

Looking at the limited seat count of the 321XLR, it’s obvious it doesn’t fill the void of the 763 and A332 and simply can’t replace them. It’s too small, has too little range and no cargo.
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:53 am

I also ask how United buying A321s to replace 752s 1:1 impacts the NMA, which is targeted at the fleet of 75 or so 753/763/764s that United has?
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:59 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
I would doubt that you see premium plus on the 321XLR - they have stated they will fit 170 seats which is just 1 more than the 757. So it's highly unlikely.


If they are planning to use any of these for TATL flights they might need to re-think that, at least for a sub-fleet. I'm highly unlikely to give any more business to anyone not configuring premium economy for longer flights, and I don't think I'm alone in that.


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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:19 am

ikramerica wrote:
I also ask how United buying A321s to replace 752s 1:1 impacts the NMA, which is targeted at the fleet of 75 or so 753/763/764s that United has?

Or the 90+ similar sized planes DL have? It’s AA where Boeing missed the boat, though to some extent the 788 filled the 763 void with AA so is it a loss?

Looking at the limited seat count of the 321XLR, it’s obvious it doesn’t fill the void of the 763 and A332 and simply can’t replace them. It’s too small, has too little range and no cargo.

Many a time, posters in this forum have indicated that airlines may not be replacing old aircraft on a 1 for 1 basis - many airlines prefer to buy something smaller so that they can increase frequencies on the routes. Conversely, some airlines may prefer something a little larger to boost capacity a little because it may not justify boosting frequency.

While the A321XLR may not be the same size as the 753/763/764s, United may find that the routes served by these may need higher frequencies(with the A321 or A321XLR) or a larger aircraft (e.g. B788/789/78X or A338/339/350).
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:15 am

JFKalumni wrote:
[
EWR:

AMS Second Daily


UA already annouced a second daily for S20 (both 763). During the WInter such a second flight would be too much capacity.
 
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Re: United orders 50 A321 XLR, defers A350's to 2027

Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:20 am

For those who want to familiarise themselves with the history of UA's order, here is a reasonable summary:
https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/united- ... xwb-order/

This piece is looking at UA's aircraft orders from a CAPEX (beancounter) perspective:
https://seekingalpha.com/article/431082 ... areholders
 
twicearound
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Re: Sources: United ordering 50 A321 XLR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:01 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I wonder if XLR will act as a gateway here for UA into the A320Neo like A321NEO deal for domestic routes to make a lot of sense now.

I wouldn't put too much store in that, the A321's will only offset the A350's United had on order for the last 10 years.
If it turns out to be all that hot of an airplane? They might look at new A320's or A319's but one thing for sure. The A320 had better have Transcon Range and to fly to Hawaii from the West Coast. which means Boston to San Diego or FLL to SEA or IAD-ANC..


The A320 has always had the proven range for any of the routes you've mentioned. Think JetBlue, or Virgin America. Transcon airlines, with a fleet of Airbus.

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