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blacksoviet
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:58 pm

Has Boeing destroyed the Douglas 717 tooling?
 
IADCA
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:09 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Has Boeing destroyed the Douglas 717 tooling?


It doesn't matter, for this purpose. SAS owned Blue1, which had a substantial 717 fleet less than 5 years ago. Those planes were dumped once SK sold the airline to CityJet. If they'd wanted to keep them, they would have. And nobody is restarting a production line at a factory that's been closed for nearly 15 years for a 20-frame order of anything, anyway.
 
lazyme
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:26 pm

SASViking wrote:
lazyme wrote:
SAS already have codeshare with Air Baltic, an A220 operator.

And what's your point? They also codeshare with Swiss and Egypair, both A220 operators. Not to mention AC a soon to be A220 operator.
The cooperation between SAS and AirBaltic started long before the A220 even excisted. SAS owned a stake in BT for 14-ish years and was one of the founders


Point is : compared with Swiss, they have low crew salaries..
 
IADCA
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:59 pm

lazyme wrote:
SASViking wrote:
lazyme wrote:
SAS already have codeshare with Air Baltic, an A220 operator.

And what's your point? They also codeshare with Swiss and Egypair, both A220 operators. Not to mention AC a soon to be A220 operator.
The cooperation between SAS and AirBaltic started long before the A220 even excisted. SAS owned a stake in BT for 14-ish years and was one of the founders


Point is : compared with Swiss, they have low crew salaries..


And an order for more A220s than they seem likely to be able to use.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:19 pm

VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Hidden behind a paywall. Is it your opinion or stated in the article?

The not hidden part notes "but would need to maintain the benefits of its shift toward single-fleet operations."

So based on that comment, my opinion is Airbus A319. My opinion is the A319NEO is barely more efficient than the A319CEO. Due to the incredible efficiency of A321NEO (everything I've read is they cost the same to opperate as A320CEOs in high utilization duty or 9+ hours per day).

So it is my reading of the tea leaves.

Lightsaber


If they wanted to add used A319s, an announcement like this would be unusual. They added used A320's in the past, without any fanfare at all. They even got some brand new 737-800s some years ago, ditto without any announcement like this.


I tend to agree with this. SAS finances are weak, and issues such as the strike this year don't help, but this is still a state backed airline of the Danish, Swedish and Norwegian governments. While the economics maybe there to go with used 319s it would indeed be strange to make the public announcement, and lets also not forget the political pressure to make the fleet more fuel efficient in this specific targeted market. That said they don't half like to run a knackered out fleet :lol:
 
kanye
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:31 pm

I love how many people here agree on that SAS finances are too weak to buy A220:s and they probably go for A319CEOs.
In the same time SAS can take delivery of several A320NEOS per month right now and as far as i know they are the airline in Europe with most Neos in it's fleet. This month they also took delivery of an A350.
Makes no sense they wouldn't be able to buy A220:s as well.
 
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SASViking
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:35 pm

lazyme wrote:
SASViking wrote:
lazyme wrote:
SAS already have codeshare with Air Baltic, an A220 operator.

And what's your point? They also codeshare with Swiss and Egypair, both A220 operators. Not to mention AC a soon to be A220 operator.
The cooperation between SAS and AirBaltic started long before the A220 even excisted. SAS owned a stake in BT for 14-ish years and was one of the founders


Point is : compared with Swiss, they have low crew salaries..

So because they have a codeshare agreement, BT should operate a large amount of A223s on behalf of SAS? That's not really how it works. I know that BT have a large amount of A223's on order but those aren't ordered so that they can operate them on lease to another airline.
Also none of the current airlines who operate on behalf of SAS, or have done so within this century, had a codeshare agreement with SAS and none but Air Nostrum, and partly Nordica, operated the specific aircraft they operate on behalf of SAS beforehand
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
aerokiwi
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:45 am

kanye wrote:
I love how many people here agree on that SAS finances are too weak to buy A220:s and they probably go for A319CEOs.
In the same time SAS can take delivery of several A320NEOS per month right now and as far as i know they are the airline in Europe with most Neos in it's fleet. This month they also took delivery of an A350.
Makes no sense they wouldn't be able to buy A220:s as well.


No one is saying they couldn't finance a fleet of a new type - way to go in that twisting. But is it optimal given their financial position? Could a short to medium term solution expanding an existing fleet type be better than going for a longer term newbie solution? I'd suggest there's merit in it but whether SK is that way inclined, I'm not so sure.

And this is just SAS releasing a report, it's not some enormous public announcement. The 120-150 seater detail is fairly easy to miss. This is more a high level investor presentation.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:48 am

aerokiwi wrote:
The 319NEO is going to be a near orphan fleet, impacting long term residual values of the jets. In this case, go boring, go secondhand 319.

I concur. Used A319CEOs are going near scrap values. SAS, unfortunately, is unlikely to buy new.

Best to buy cheap and redo the fleet in 5 to 7 years when in better financial health.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
ewt340
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:53 am

lightsaber wrote:
SAS has weak finances:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SKBN1Y90VT

After doing a little research, used A319CEOs become more likely.

It looks like they want a common fleet type (Airbus):

https://aviationweek.com/awincommercial ... raft-order

Lightsaber


Honey, the fact that nobody really wants A319neo mean that they could probably get a bigger discount than MAX8 right now. No need to settle for A319.

Or just wet-leased A220 like they did with their dozens of other regional aircraft.
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:56 am

ewt340 wrote:

Honey, the fact that nobody really wants A319neo mean that they could probably get a bigger discount than MAX8 right now. No need to settle for A319.

Or just wet-leased A220 like they did with their dozens of other regional aircraft.


But they are built on the same line as A320neos and A321neos, models that Airbus really isn't struggling to sell. So I doubt that will result in a huge discount.
 
kimimm19
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:39 am

frigatebird wrote:
AECM wrote:
A220

Written all over it, I agree. Although the E2-195 cannot be totally ruled out.



In order to get a better price....


Really they should've done this when ordering the (top-up) neos as surely prices would've been a bit better.
 
rbavfan
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:19 am

Contrailer wrote:
A220-300 vs. E2-195 - i'm definitely leaning towards the A220-300! :D


The A220 would be simpler to integrate also due to all mainline having side stick controllers. The E195-E2 uses the older yoke style.
 
rbavfan
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:24 am

eurotrader85 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Given their network, I believe that the E295 is better suited for them. SK could establish another subsidiary to fly this model...and they don’t need the full range or capabilities of the BCS3.


I'm personally intrigued, where does the economics between the E295 & A220 differ, and thus why its better for their network?


I'm personally intreged by what is an E295? I know what an E195 is. Oh yeah and what is a BCS3?
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:28 am

rbavfan wrote:
Contrailer wrote:
A220-300 vs. E2-195 - i'm definitely leaning towards the A220-300! :D


The A220 would be simpler to integrate also due to all mainline having side stick controllers. The E195-E2 uses the older yoke style.


Sounds like total nonsense. SAS has yoke-equipped 737s and subcontracted ATRs and CRJs. It is very likely that these will be subcontracted as well, so training and commonality would be totally irrelevant.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:01 am

lightsaber wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
The 319NEO is going to be a near orphan fleet, impacting long term residual values of the jets. In this case, go boring, go secondhand 319.

I concur. Used A319CEOs are going near scrap values. SAS, unfortunately, is unlikely to buy new.

Best to buy cheap and redo the fleet in 5 to 7 years when in better financial health.

Lightsaber


How can you say they are unlikely to buy new? They have nearly 80 A320neos (delivered or ordered). 3 new A321LR on order, 8 new Airbus A350 on order. Even their wetleased fleet are new - new ATR 72-600 and Cityjet ordered additional new CRJs. They are very much likely to order new aircraft. This is the best financial health SAS has been in for years. Not great compared to others but good for SAS - 4 years of profits from 2015 to 2018.
 
OlafW
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:09 am

rbavfan wrote:

I'm personally intreged by what is an E295? I know what an E195 is. Oh yeah and what is a BCS3?


E295 is the code for a E195-E2, only learned that last week myself
BCS3 stands for Bombardier CS-300, in fact superseded by A223
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:06 am

rbavfan wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Given their network, I believe that the E295 is better suited for them. SK could establish another subsidiary to fly this model...and they don’t need the full range or capabilities of the BCS3.


I'm personally intrigued, where does the economics between the E295 & A220 differ, and thus why its better for their network?


I'm personally intreged by what is an E295? I know what an E195 is. Oh yeah and what is a BCS3?


Official ICAO codes for the Embraer 195-E2 and the Airbus A220-300.
 
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reidar76
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:09 am

Bostrom wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Honey, the fact that nobody really wants A319neo mean that they could probably get a bigger discount than MAX8 right now. No need to settle for A319.

Or just wet-leased A220 like they did with their dozens of other regional aircraft.


But they are built on the same line as A320neos and A321neos, models that Airbus really isn't struggling to sell. So I doubt that will result in a huge discount.


This is a very good point. Airbus has no incentive to sell the A319neo. Production of one A319neo takes up one slot on the overbooked A320 family production lines, a slot Airbus would rather fill with a higher margin A321. I don't think the low number of orders for the A319neo represent lack of efficiency of this variant, but rather that Airbus is currently pricing the A319neo high, in order to have similar profits as the A320/A321.

SAS has just retired their last 737-600. SAS has been the largest operator of this 737NG variant. The 737-600 was configured with 123 seats, and the next aircraft to be retired is the 737-700, configured with 141 seats.

The A220-100 and A220-300 would, in standard SAS layout, have 125 seats and 150 seats (pitch 30 inches). A perfect match.

The E190-E2 and E195-E2 would probably have 108 seats and 132 seats respectively (pitch 30 inches). The smaller E2 is to close to the relatively new wet-leased CRJ.

The choice between the E2 and A220 will probably come down to price, delivery slots and short field performance. Range might also be a consideration. SAS uses the same aircraft for short-haul business traffic (often less than 1 hour flight time) on weekdays, and then for flying sun-seeking Scandinavians to Spain etc (up to 4+ hours, and LPA up to about 6 hours) on the weekends. High utilization is important. I don't think used A319ceo is an option. The A319ceo will also be retired from the SAS fleet.

We could see A320 family aircraft in SAS Sweden and SAS Denmark, while SAS Norway (which currently only operates 737NG aircraft, and have a much higher share of short-haul, high frequency of domestic flights), to be an all A220 operator. (?)
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:44 pm

MRJ need this order for the Spacejet. I really hope they get it.
 
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Polot
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:48 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
MRJ need this order for the Spacejet. I really hope they get it.

The Spacejet is smaller than what SAS appears to be interested in. Spacejet would be CRJ replacements, not filling in the gap between them and the A320neo.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:18 pm

As some others have pointed out, SAS uses their 737-700 on everything from short 40 minute hops to 4+ hours flights. And I don't think SAS is looking to replace the 737-700 with an A319ceo with similar economics.

And people need to understand that the OSL-CPH-ARN triangle, as well as intra Norway OSL-BGO-TRD triangle routes are usually flown with 737-700/800 or A320. They are some of the busiest routes in Europe, and the capacity is needed.

The E-jets are simply not large enough to replace the -700. Both when it comes to the triangle routes, but also when it comes to flights from Scandinavia to the Greek Islands or Canary Islands. Nobody wants to sit in a cramped 2+2 E-jet for 4 hours straight. Widerøe was one of the first operators of the -E2s, and they're absolutely horrible with their seating config at least. What do you think pax would choose between an SAS 2+2 E-jet or a NAX 737-800 for their summer holiday 4 hour flight? It would be the 737-800. But if the choice was between an A220-300 with 2+3, suddenly the SAS option becomes much better.

And yes, people in Norway know what type of aircraft they're flying on. Norwegians fly more than any other Europeans (except those living on islands).

So the only real options are either A319neo, or it's A220-300. Maybe a mix of A220-100 and -300.

And I'm willing to bet Airbus would like to push A220 before A319neos that occupy valuable A321neo production slots. The second hand value of an A220-300 will be far better than the A319neo also.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:25 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Honey, the fact that nobody really wants A319neo mean that they could probably get a bigger discount than MAX8 right now. No need to settle for A319.

Or just wet-leased A220 like they did with their dozens of other regional aircraft.


But they are built on the same line as A320neos and A321neos, models that Airbus really isn't struggling to sell. So I doubt that will result in a huge discount.


This is a very good point. Airbus has no incentive to sell the A319neo. Production of one A319neo takes up one slot on the overbooked A320 family production lines, a slot Airbus would rather fill with a higher margin A321. I don't think the low number of orders for the A319neo represent lack of efficiency of this variant, but rather that Airbus is currently pricing the A319neo high, in order to have similar profits as the A320/A321.

SAS has just retired their last 737-600. SAS has been the largest operator of this 737NG variant. The 737-600 was configured with 123 seats, and the next aircraft to be retired is the 737-700, configured with 141 seats.

The A220-100 and A220-300 would, in standard SAS layout, have 125 seats and 150 seats (pitch 30 inches). A perfect match.

The E190-E2 and E195-E2 would probably have 108 seats and 132 seats respectively (pitch 30 inches). The smaller E2 is to close to the relatively new wet-leased CRJ.

The choice between the E2 and A220 will probably come down to price, delivery slots and short field performance. Range might also be a consideration. SAS uses the same aircraft for short-haul business traffic (often less than 1 hour flight time) on weekdays, and then for flying sun-seeking Scandinavians to Spain etc (up to 4+ hours, and LPA up to about 6 hours) on the weekends. High utilization is important. I don't think used A319ceo is an option. The A319ceo will also be retired from the SAS fleet.

We could see A320 family aircraft in SAS Sweden and SAS Denmark, while SAS Norway (which currently only operates 737NG aircraft, and have a much higher share of short-haul, high frequency of domestic flights), to be an all A220 operator. (?)


The limit on a320 production is engine supply.
The limit on A321 production is the Hamburg assembly line.

Selling a scarce asset (engines) at a discount? Why? Where is the business case for Airbus? If new, A220 can be offered.

I am still of the opinion the used A319CEOs are the best option.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
fessor
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:35 pm

I see SK to buy A220-300
But what about the replacement of the present fleet of A321s
 
amstone17
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:55 pm

leghorn wrote:
100/1 outsider SuperJet with 125 seats.

Now hear me out...They're geographically close to Russia and all the other components are easily accessible in Europe nearby.

maybe make it 1000/1 outsider.



Problem with the SSJ is just a terrible lack of support once an aircraft is sold to an operator.
there's nothing inherently wrong with the aircraft, and the price is excellent, but lacking parts support forcing operators to ground a lot of their fleet is killing it.

A220 and E2s make the most sense, well established global support networks to keep them flying, now if only P&W can finally put an end to engine reliability/delivery issues.

With the A320NEOs, the A220 makes the most sense long term.
 
Kikko19
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:04 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
As some others have pointed out, SAS uses their 737-700 on everything from short 40 minute hops to 4+ hours flights. And I don't think SAS is looking to replace the 737-700 with an A319ceo with similar economics.

And people need to understand that the OSL-CPH-ARN triangle, as well as intra Norway OSL-BGO-TRD triangle routes are usually flown with 737-700/800 or A320. They are some of the busiest routes in Europe, and the capacity is needed.

The E-jets are simply not large enough to replace the -700. Both when it comes to the triangle routes, but also when it comes to flights from Scandinavia to the Greek Islands or Canary Islands. Nobody wants to sit in a cramped 2+2 E-jet for 4 hours straight. Widerøe was one of the first operators of the -E2s, and they're absolutely horrible with their seating config at least. What do you think pax would choose between an SAS 2+2 E-jet or a NAX 737-800 for their summer holiday 4 hour flight? It would be the 737-800. But if the choice was between an A220-300 with 2+3, suddenly the SAS option becomes much better.

And yes, people in Norway know what type of aircraft they're flying on. Norwegians fly more than any other Europeans (except those living on islands).

So the only real options are either A319neo, or it's A220-300. Maybe a mix of A220-100 and -300.

And I'm willing to bet Airbus would like to push A220 before A319neos that occupy valuable A321neo production slots. The second hand value of an A220-300 will be far better than the A319neo also.


sorry but I'd seat in an e195 rather than in a 737 800 hands down! i've been flying both and cannot compare! the e jet is far better! you'll never get stuck in the middle seat and the cabin even if smaller is much more spacious. I prefere the e jet even to an a32x which is far better than the 737. I also flown with a223 and it's a great plane if you seat in the right side :)
all in IMHO of course airlines will choose their horses from a different point of view.
 
InThrustWeTrust
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:36 pm

A319ceo...no way ,forget that..SAS need new material and. with 80 A320neo and 8 A350-900 on order coming in as schedueled . A220 will fit perfect.
 
Sokes
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:15 pm

KOMAtose wrote:
Still going to be awhile before they recoup the costs of the program as a whole


Who, Bombardier or Airbus?


reidar76 wrote:

SAS uses the same aircraft for short-haul business traffic (often less than 1 hour flight time) on weekdays, and then for flying sun-seeking Scandinavians to Spain etc (up to 4+ hours, and LPA up to about 6 hours) on the weekends.



I assume the more on the edge of a continent an airline operates, the more important range is. Lufthansa doesn't need much range for Europe. But I'm not surprised Air Baltic chose the A220.
If I had to be Norwegian I wouldn't mind which plane I fly as long as there is free beer with more than 1,5% alcohol.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
jghealey
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:22 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
As some others have pointed out, SAS uses their 737-700 on everything from short 40 minute hops to 4+ hours flights. And I don't think SAS is looking to replace the 737-700 with an A319ceo with similar economics.

And people need to understand that the OSL-CPH-ARN triangle, as well as intra Norway OSL-BGO-TRD triangle routes are usually flown with 737-700/800 or A320. They are some of the busiest routes in Europe, and the capacity is needed.

The E-jets are simply not large enough to replace the -700. Both when it comes to the triangle routes, but also when it comes to flights from Scandinavia to the Greek Islands or Canary Islands. Nobody wants to sit in a cramped 2+2 E-jet for 4 hours straight. Widerøe was one of the first operators of the -E2s, and they're absolutely horrible with their seating config at least. What do you think pax would choose between an SAS 2+2 E-jet or a NAX 737-800 for their summer holiday 4 hour flight? It would be the 737-800. But if the choice was between an A220-300 with 2+3, suddenly the SAS option becomes much better.

And yes, people in Norway know what type of aircraft they're flying on. Norwegians fly more than any other Europeans (except those living on islands).

So the only real options are either A319neo, or it's A220-300. Maybe a mix of A220-100 and -300.

And I'm willing to bet Airbus would like to push A220 before A319neos that occupy valuable A321neo production slots. The second hand value of an A220-300 will be far better than the A319neo also.


sorry but I'd seat in an e195 rather than in a 737 800 hands down! i've been flying both and cannot compare! the e jet is far better! you'll never get stuck in the middle seat and the cabin even if smaller is much more spacious. I prefere the e jet even to an a32x which is far better than the 737. I also flown with a223 and it's a great plane if you seat in the right side :)
all in IMHO of course airlines will choose their horses from a different point of view.

The E195 is obviously better from a seating configuration perspective as it's 2-2 in the sense that you don't have a seatmate... but I wouldn't say it feels more spacious than the larger jets per se. Even the A220 which is so much more pleasant to fly in - it's just so much more modern and feels a lot less cramped. Although less modern inside (at least for now) the A320neo really does feel more spacious than them all.

Given the A220's superior economics than either the A319neo or the E295 I think this is the way to go if they decide they are able to add another narrowbody type. I still don't think they'll add used A319ceos with all the recent focus on sustainability. It would go at odds with their strategy to have one of Europe's newest and most efficient fleets - and besides, you'd think that in a few years time they'd want to do all-neo for the A320 fleet to minimise complexity. It's a shame they went with CFM engines for the neos, otherwise they'd have been able to benefit from engine commonality with the PW GTF A220s.
Last edited by jghealey on Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
YIMBY
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:24 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Nobody wants to sit in a cramped 2+2 E-jet for 4 hours straight.


Nobody wants to sit in a cramped jet whatever it is, but I would take any day an E-jet over whatever model of Airbus or Boeing with similarly sized seat for any length straight or not.
 
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reidar76
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:27 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I am still of the opinion the used A319CEOs are the best option.


Used A319ceo might be a good choice and make economic sense for other airlines, like United which is buying used A319ceo.

SAS is in a different market, a market that will see a significant rise in environmental taxes. SAS is partly owned by the Scandinavian governments. In such circumstances the most fuel efficient aircraft will have the lowest CASM. The difference in purchase price between A319ceo and A220 is not the main driver, fuel prices and environmental taxes are.

I would have thought that you of all people would see the benefit of those excellent PW1500G. :-)
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:47 pm

YIMBY wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Nobody wants to sit in a cramped 2+2 E-jet for 4 hours straight.


Nobody wants to sit in a cramped jet whatever it is, but I would take any day an E-jet over whatever model of Airbus or Boeing with similarly sized seat for any length straight or not.


Good for you. What about not similar sized seats - which will certainly be the case.

Examples:

Widerøe E190-E2: Seat width 18" / Seat pitch 31" / 2+2 config

AirBaltic A220-300: Seat width 18,5" / Seat pitch 32" / 2+3 config

In addition to that, the A220 cabin is way more spacious and modern with larger windows and a quieter cabin.

The Widerøe E190-E2 has got negative reviews all across the board. It's a terrible experience to fly in them.

The opposite is the reality for the AirBaltic A220. Reviewers describe it as a comfortable plane and the experience is quite good.

You could argue that SAS likely would increase pitch in the E-series, but the width and the other factors remain the same.
 
Nean1
Posts: 378
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:08 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Nobody wants to sit in a cramped 2+2 E-jet for 4 hours straight.


Nobody wants to sit in a cramped jet whatever it is, but I would take any day an E-jet over whatever model of Airbus or Boeing with similarly sized seat for any length straight or not.


Good for you. What about not similar sized seats - which will certainly be the case.

Examples:

Widerøe E190-E2: Seat width 18" / Seat pitch 31" / 2+2 config

AirBaltic A220-300: Seat width 18,5" / Seat pitch 32" / 2+3 config

In addition to that, the A220 cabin is way more spacious and modern with larger windows and a quieter cabin.

The Widerøe E190-E2 has got negative reviews all across the board. It's a terrible experience to fly in them.

The opposite is the reality for the AirBaltic A220. Reviewers describe it as a comfortable plane and the experience is quite good.

You could argue that SAS likely would increase pitch in the E-series, but the width and the other factors remain the same.

Wrong. Wideroe E190 E2's with 29 inches of seat pitch.
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I am still of the opinion the used A319CEOs are the best option.

Lightsaber


There is a big article in the newspaper Jyllands Posten today about this. SAS clearly states that Airbus doesn't have a suitable product that offers commonality with the existing A320neo fleet.

It is safe to say the A319 is not being considered.
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:15 pm

YIMBY wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Nobody wants to sit in a cramped 2+2 E-jet for 4 hours straight.


Nobody wants to sit in a cramped jet whatever it is, but I would take any day an E-jet over whatever model of Airbus or Boeing with similarly sized seat for any length straight or not.


E-jets are not cramped at all. They have some of the widest seats of all narrowbody jets. I would take it over any A320 or 737, regardless of distance.
 
SEU
Posts: 278
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:34 pm

SAS literally just described the A220 a 120-150 seat aircraft....
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:47 pm

fessor wrote:
But what about the replacement of the present fleet of A321s


I'd love to see them upgrade some of the neos on order to A321neo.
 
jghealey
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 5:46 pm

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:55 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Nobody wants to sit in a cramped 2+2 E-jet for 4 hours straight.


Nobody wants to sit in a cramped jet whatever it is, but I would take any day an E-jet over whatever model of Airbus or Boeing with similarly sized seat for any length straight or not.


Good for you. What about not similar sized seats - which will certainly be the case.

Examples:

Widerøe E190-E2: Seat width 18" / Seat pitch 31" / 2+2 config

AirBaltic A220-300: Seat width 18,5" / Seat pitch 32" / 2+3 config

In addition to that, the A220 cabin is way more spacious and modern with larger windows and a quieter cabin.

The Widerøe E190-E2 has got negative reviews all across the board. It's a terrible experience to fly in them.

The opposite is the reality for the AirBaltic A220. Reviewers describe it as a comfortable plane and the experience is quite good.

You could argue that SAS likely would increase pitch in the E-series, but the width and the other factors remain the same.

Yes, the A220 does have a really lovely cabin. To me the E2's cabin is far less attractive (and indeed less comfortable looking) than the A220's. I haven't flown the E2 (I have flown the A220) but judging from the pictures I've seen, the general design and quality of the A220's cabin is much higher (just look at the E2's overhead panels - much more 2000s than 2010s in my opinion). The A220 feels much more akin to a large narrowbody such as the A320 than a regional jet like the E2. Comparing it to the last E190-E1 I flew, the A220 is simply worlds away in terms of spaciousness and design, even with equivalent seatpitch. The 2-3 config is also really great if you're travelling alone of with one companion. It also manages to match the larger narrowbodies with overhead bin sizes, etc. I flew a Swiss A220 two weeks ago and then a BA A320neo on the way back and I'm convinced there was more bin space on the A220. The E190 doesn't come close to matching either of them.
 
T4thH
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:28 pm

VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I am still of the opinion the used A319CEOs are the best option.

Lightsaber


There is a big article in the newspaper Jyllands Posten today about this. SAS clearly states that Airbus doesn't have a suitable product that offers commonality with the existing A320neo fleet.

It is safe to say the A319 is not being considered.

The A319 ceo is out. All what is stated in the presentation, shows only one thing: SAS has to get green, they are forced by laws and taxes. Also it seems the A319 neo is out, it is not green enough. And SAS seems to get a "non Boeing" airline, so Boeing is also out (with exception of "Boeing Brazil")
They will kick the whole A319 ceo, A320 ceo and A321 ceo fleet and all B737 members. These will be replaced by A320 Neo and 3x A321LR and the new mid size plain.

What are left are the A220 family and the E190/195 E2 family as only these fulfill the stated recommendations for the mid size plane. As SAS is sitting on the northern edge of Europe,so range will be important, I will bet on the A220 family, as the E2 family has range limitations as "pimped regional plane". SAS will replace main line jets with the B737 and A320 ceo family members, the E2 family will much less fit than the A220 family in this case.
 
Someone83
Topic Author
Posts: 4864
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:45 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
I tend to agree with this. SAS finances are weak, and issues such as the strike this year don't help, but this is still a state backed airline of the Danish, Swedish and Norwegian governments. While the economics maybe there to go with used 319s it would indeed be strange to make the public announcement, and lets also not forget the political pressure to make the fleet more fuel efficient in this specific targeted market. That said they don't half like to run a knackered out fleet :lol:


The Norwegian government has sold all their SAS shares
 
torer
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:13 pm

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:46 pm

SAS won’t order any A319, as they are scheduled to leave the fleet.

From an interview yesterday with the CEO of SAS, Rickard Gustafson:

https://e24.no/boers-og-finans/i/Jow8GJ/sas-sjefen-paa-jakt-etter-nye-regionalfly-vi-maa-ha-en-loesning

Although SAS is now in the midst of a major fleet renewal in which older aircraft from Boeing and Airbus will be replaced with new aircraft from Airbus, the upgrade creates a new challenge:

The new aircraft in the modernized fleet are getting a little too big - at least in parts of the SAS network.

In the short-haul fleet, the four older Airbus A319s with 150 seats and the 61 Boeing 737 aircraft with 123, 141 or 183 seats (600, 700 and 800 versions) will initially be replaced with new Airbus A320neo aircraft with 180 seats .
(google translate)

BTW, the Norwegian state has sold all its shares in SAS:

The Norwegian state has now sold all its shares in the airline SAS


https://e24.no/boers-og-finans/i/J1d4Eb/det-norske-stat-fikk-597-millioner-kroner-for-sas-aksjene
 
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lightsaber
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Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:16 pm

reidar76 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I am still of the opinion the used A319CEOs are the best option.


Used A319ceo might be a good choice and make economic sense for other airlines, like United which is buying used A319ceo.

SAS is in a different market, a market that will see a significant rise in environmental taxes. SAS is partly owned by the Scandinavian governments. In such circumstances the most fuel efficient aircraft will have the lowest CASM. The difference in purchase price between A319ceo and A220 is not the main driver, fuel prices and environmental taxes are.

I would have thought that you of all people would see the benefit of those excellent PW1500G. :-)

I am very biased to GTFs. To give a better opinion, I would need to know:

How much are the taxes? (on fuel, I assume, say 20%?)

What is the utilization (hours/day averaged over a typical year)? Cycles/day? (The ratio helps estimate maintenance costs as well as fuel burn).

I started reading this thread rooting for a PW1500G or PW1900G aircraft.

BTW, To others, the E-jets have rave reviews for comfort, obviously pitch dependent.

The higher the utilization, the more likely new wins the order.

The shorter the missions, the more adventageous for the E2. The longer the missions, the more adventageous it is for A220.

But also economics of purchase. SAS having such a poor year altered my decision from what I would have suggest a year ago.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
Bostrom
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Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
How much are the taxes? (on fuel, I assume, say 20%?)

The shorter the missions, the more adventageous for the E2. The longer the missions, the more adventageous it is for A220.

But also economics of purchase. SAS having such a poor year altered my decision from what I would have suggest a year ago.


No fuel taxes at the moment, but there are political debates about in the Scandinavian countries, and Finland has talked about a EU-wide tax on jet fuel.

I guess these new aircraft will be used on both long and short routes. VBY-ARN in the morning and ARN-AGP in the afternoon, as well as everything in between.

SAS might have a poor year, but a lot can probably be blamed on the pilot strike.
 
CHRISBA35X
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:40 am

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:21 am

Polot wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
MRJ need this order for the Spacejet. I really hope they get it.

The Spacejet is smaller than what SAS appears to be interested in. Spacejet would be CRJ replacements, not filling in the gap between them and the A320neo.


Just checked and you're right - its maxed at 81 seats which I think is a wee bit small. Certainly puts it out of the running for this order.

A223 looks prime candidate here in that case.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12971
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:34 am

SASViking wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
A220 is the only one satisfying this.

While E2-195 can sit 146 pax maximum, the seats will be really tight with that configuration. If SAS wants the flexibility to block seats out for Euro-business class, then the number of seats would drop to about 130 on the largest Embraer.


SAS doesn't block out seats in business class.

Exactly. SAS don't even offer Business on intra-european. However they some times block seats in Plus in possible, but that's not really relevant


I haven't had a seat blocked in Plus for many many years, I fact I can't even remember the last time I had a seat blocked in Plus, I think it's an urban myth.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12971
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:44 am

reidar76 wrote:

We could see A320 family aircraft in SAS Sweden and SAS Denmark, while SAS Norway (which currently only operates 737NG aircraft, and have a much higher share of short-haul, high frequency of domestic flights), to be an all A220 operator. (?)


This was what I was thinking as well, the SAS Norway becomes the primary operator for the A220, there are a lot of smaller airports where the A320NEO is too much aircraft.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:58 am

So the mooted taxes don't exist, or are even scheduled, yet and they're looking for commonality with the NEO fleet but in the 120 to 150 seat space. What do you think has more commonality - an A220 or a used A319? They probably won't go for the secondhand 319 option, but they should. No one has suggested they buy new ones off the production line.

The leaps to judgment on here. A minor detail in a shareholder presentation = big public announcement. Commonality with 320NEO = A220(??). Mooted additional green taxes = they're here and now. Secondhand A319s = new off the line models.

Comprehension, people.

Meanwhile, this may all be delivered by a partner airline rather than SAS themselves. So saying SAS will order this or that might be moot anyway. Given their high costs, a partner airline is probably the most likely outcome, a la Cityjet or Air Baltic, as the article states.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4470
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:43 am

aerokiwi wrote:
So the mooted taxes don't exist, or are even scheduled, yet and they're looking for commonality with the NEO fleet but in the 120 to 150 seat space. What do you think has more commonality - an A220 or a used A319? They probably won't go for the secondhand 319 option, but they should. No one has suggested they buy new ones off the production line.

The leaps to judgment on here. A minor detail in a shareholder presentation = big public announcement. Commonality with 320NEO = A220(??). Mooted additional green taxes = they're here and now. Secondhand A319s = new off the line models.

Comprehension, people.

Meanwhile, this may all be delivered by a partner airline rather than SAS themselves. So saying SAS will order this or that might be moot anyway. Given their high costs, a partner airline is probably the most likely outcome, a la Cityjet or Air Baltic, as the article states.


They are not looking for commonality.

It looks like they want to establish a new daughter company for this operation, Scandinavian based, at least.
 
Someone83
Topic Author
Posts: 4864
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:03 am

aerokiwi wrote:
Meanwhile, this may all be delivered by a partner airline rather than SAS themselves. So saying SAS will order this or that might be moot anyway. Given their high costs, a partner airline is probably the most likely outcome, a la Cityjet or Air Baltic, as the article states.


With the current pilot agreements, it has to be operated in-house. Either through a dauther company or SAS themselves, as SAS more or less, has maxed out their wet-lease limits with Cityjet and RegionalJeg/Nordica today
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4470
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: SAS in the market for a 120-150 seat aircraft

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:15 am

Someone83 wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
Meanwhile, this may all be delivered by a partner airline rather than SAS themselves. So saying SAS will order this or that might be moot anyway. Given their high costs, a partner airline is probably the most likely outcome, a la Cityjet or Air Baltic, as the article states.


With the current pilot agreements, it has to be operated in-house. Either through a dauther company or SAS themselves, as SAS more or less, has maxed out their wet-lease limits with Cityjet and RegionalJeg/Nordica today


SAS is not a US3 though. The unions don't have the same power to block changes.

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