airporthistory
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Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:57 pm

Hi folks,

I just uploaded an article on the attempt to build a new mega-airport for Hamburg, Germany, back in the 1970s. It contains several rare images of the plans. You can read the article here: https://www.airporthistory.org/kaltenkirchen.html

In the final layout, the plan envisaged the construction of four parallel runways and eight passenger terminals, as well as huge areas dedicated to cargo and maintenance. You will notice that the concept had more than a passing resemblance to DFW.

I often wonder what would have happened if Kaltenkirchen had opened in 1975 as originally scheduled? It would have opened many years before the new Munich Airport (1992). Perhaps, instead of Munich, Hamburg would have become Lufthansa's second hub, or perhaps even its main hub, considering its ideal runway layout.

I would love to hear from our local aviation experts. What do you think?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen, what if it had been built?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:03 pm

It would draw a lot of passengers from Denmark. It is up to 40 minutes closer to Denmark than the existing airport.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:13 pm

Nice article! I think MUC/Bavaria has more of a tourist draw than HAM/Northern Germany? Also the decision to keep two airports open would have been a problem. I wonder why they didn't make it clear that the downtown airport would close? That would have at least given the political opponents a small accommodation and given the new airport a better chance at success.
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N14AZ
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:46 pm

We had a member, PanHAM, who was pretty familiar with these plans and how it ended but I haven’t seen him for quite some time.

Revelation wrote:
Nice article! I think MUC/Bavaria has more of a tourist draw than HAM/Northern Germany?

True, better beer, better weather, better food.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:06 pm

[quote="N14AZ"]We had a member, PanHAM, who was pretty familiar with these plans and how it ended but I haven’t seen him for quite some time.

Indeed, I remember him well. A gentleman called 'Airport Addict' actually posted a comment under the article and I think it could be him.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:23 pm

The main problem with Kaltenkirchen is the weather. Quite often dense fog.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:31 pm

I also get a CDG-vibe here.
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:36 pm

N14AZ wrote:
We had a member, PanHAM, who was pretty familiar with these plans and how it ended but I haven’t seen him for quite some time.


Just start a thread declaring that BER will open on time and the person will be back ;)

N14AZ wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Nice article! I think MUC/Bavaria has more of a tourist draw than HAM/Northern Germany?

True, better beer, better weather, better food.


Yes, definitely more O&D potential in Bavaria, maybe Hamburg should have lobbied Disney to base their amusement parks on the Reeperbahn instead of Neuschwanstein, that would have fixed it :D
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:02 pm

LH707330 wrote:
maybe Hamburg should have lobbied Disney to base their amusement parks on the Reeperbahn instead of Neuschwanstein, that would have fixed it :D

Back when WDW was becoming a 'thing' in the 60s/70s we in the US already had NYC Times Square and Boston Combat Zone to serve as proxies for Reeperbahn!
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:02 pm

Hamburg is actually Germany’s second biggest city so it would have been a good fit
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:05 pm

airporthistory wrote:
I often wonder what would have happened if Kaltenkirchen had opened in 1975 as originally scheduled? It would have opened many years before the new Munich Airport (1992). Perhaps, instead of Munich, Hamburg would have become Lufthansa's second hub, or perhaps even its main hub, considering its ideal runway layout.


Facilities aren't a very good determinant of hub success. LHR succeeds in spite of itself. Kaltenkirchen could just as well turned into Germany's PIT - way, way overbuilt for the local market.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:04 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
airporthistory wrote:
I often wonder what would have happened if Kaltenkirchen had opened in 1975 as originally scheduled? It would have opened many years before the new Munich Airport (1992). Perhaps, instead of Munich, Hamburg would have become Lufthansa's second hub, or perhaps even its main hub, considering its ideal runway layout.


Facilities aren't a very good determinant of hub success. LHR succeeds in spite of itself. Kaltenkirchen could just as well turned into Germany's PIT - way, way overbuilt for the local market.


Hi, thanks for your comment. Certainly, I agree with that in principle. However, Hamburg is Germany's second-largest city by population, as well as being a very rich, economically vibrant place. I don't think this would have been a "build it and they will come" kind of project.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:35 am

Design is pretty similar to that of DFW, albeit it’s scaled down (I casually counted about 10-12 gates per concourse. DFW has more than 30 IIRC). Don’t know if Hamburg’s economy would’ve truly built it to a megahub like DFW (most likely not, especially while FRA is around).
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:41 am

CarlosSi wrote:
Design is pretty similar to that of DFW, albeit it’s scaled down (I casually counted about 10-12 gates per concourse. DFW has more than 30 IIRC). Don’t know if Hamburg’s economy would’ve truly built it to a megahub like DFW (most likely not, especially while FRA is around).


HAM used to be LH main hub in 50s
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:42 am

N14AZ wrote:

Revelation wrote:
Nice article! I think MUC/Bavaria has more of a tourist draw than HAM/Northern Germany?

True, better beer, better weather, better food.


Avgeeks should check out Hamburg's Miniatur Wunderland though, with its' working scale-model airport.

www.miniatur-wunderland.com


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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:47 am

Love the Concordes at the gates, in the plans. :)
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:45 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Love the Concordes at the gates, in the plans. :)

And even a TriStar! :cry2:

Can anyone identify the DC 9 in the picture showing HAM at the mid 1960-ies?

I guess I am asking for two much if I raise the same question for the DC 3 in the same picture... :scratchchin:
 
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MD80
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:05 am

Maybe, it's a DC-9 of KLM?
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:23 am

CarlosSi wrote:
Design is pretty similar to that of DFW, albeit it’s scaled down (I casually counted about 10-12 gates per concourse. DFW has more than 30 IIRC). Don’t know if Hamburg’s economy would’ve truly built it to a megahub like DFW (most likely not, especially while FRA is around).


Hamburg is a major maritime hub, it has one of Europe's largest ports, and as others have pointed out its Germany's second largest city.

I wonder if the concept will be looked at again, I've been through Hamburg many times, it's always felt very cramped, the new terminals aren't very big and I can't see them having much room for future expansion.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:12 pm

N14AZ wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Love the Concordes at the gates, in the plans. :)

And even a TriStar! :cry2:

Can anyone identify the DC 9 in the picture showing HAM at the mid 1960-ies?

I guess I am asking for two much if I raise the same question for the DC 3 in the same picture... :scratchchin:


I have the images in hi-res. I can indeed confirm that it's a KLM DC-9. Don't know about the DC-3 though.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:34 pm

I suspect, that Kaltenkirchen would not be revisited. Apart of having not the ideal weather conditions, it is quite a bit outside of Hamburg. Those two reasons and Lufthansa moving to Frankfurt canceled that project.

It is also no need to move HAM as it is, as the airport has quite a bit spare capacity, rather new terminals, two runways. They have even 3 gates that can be used for the A380.
One of the two daily flights of Emirates to Dubai is a A380.

Lufthansa Technik is supposed to close down in Hamburg and that would open up more space.

What is missing is more international traffic and for that it would another airline apart from Lufthansa. They are not prepared to increase their number of hubs or focus cities in Germany.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:01 pm

Lufthansas plan was to install their second Hub in Hamburg-Kaltenkirchen after FRA, thats true. Also Supersonic flights were supposed to operate from there, they planned to base the Concorde and Boeing 2707, which were on order back then, in Hamburg. Hamburg is not too far from the ocean, this is why it would have made sense.
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:39 pm

airporthistory wrote:
Hi folks,

I just uploaded an article on the attempt to build a new mega-airport for Hamburg, Germany, back in the 1970s. It contains several rare images of the plans. You can read the article here: https://www.airporthistory.org/kaltenkirchen.html

In the final layout, the plan envisaged the construction of four parallel runways and eight passenger terminals, as well as huge areas dedicated to cargo and maintenance. You will notice that the concept had more than a passing resemblance to DFW.

I often wonder what would have happened if Kaltenkirchen had opened in 1975 as originally scheduled? It would have opened many years before the new Munich Airport (1992). Perhaps, instead of Munich, Hamburg would have become Lufthansa's second hub, or perhaps even its main hub, considering its ideal runway layout.

I would love to hear from our local aviation experts. What do you think?

I’d say military considerations played a HUGE Part in this design. Perfect for the giant NATO Airlift plans had the balloon ever gone up, away from civilian infrastructure, and far enough back from the border to be easier to defend.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:12 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Hamburg is actually Germany’s second biggest city so it would have been a good fit


Depends whether you consider administrative boundaries, or urban areas.

The biggest urban areas are Ruhrgebiet >6 M and Berlin >4 M, followed by Cologne, Hamburg, Munich and Frankfurt about 2 million each. Extending to metropolitan areas or catchment areas changes a bit, and not in favour of Hamburg (though 5 M).
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:23 pm

This half circle design is quite common. It's used in Soekarno Hatta in Jakarta during the early 80s. The french helps built it.

By a stretch, few of CDG terminal looks like quarter circle adjacent to each other.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:22 pm

YIMBY wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Hamburg is actually Germany’s second biggest city so it would have been a good fit


Depends whether you consider administrative boundaries, or urban areas.

The biggest urban areas are Ruhrgebiet >6 M and Berlin >4 M, followed by Cologne, Hamburg, Munich and Frankfurt about 2 million each. Extending to metropolitan areas or catchment areas changes a bit, and not in favour of Hamburg (though 5 M).


Theres around 6 Million people within 90 minutes of driving from Hamburg. In 2 hours driving there are 10 million people around Hamburg. Around the Rhein-Ruhr area its more of course (15-20 million?), but also several big Hubs not too far away (FRA, AMS, BRU). HAM is pretty far away by ground transport from any Hub. Up north the catchment area even reaches far inside of Demark.

Also, the area around Hamburg is one of the wealthiest in the EU.
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:45 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
I’d say military considerations played a HUGE Part in this design. Perfect for the giant NATO Airlift plans had the balloon ever gone up, away from civilian infrastructure, and far enough back from the border to be easier to defend.


Hi, were you referring to the location or the fact that the main runways could be lengthened to over 19,000 feet? Regarding the latter, I was thinking that there might be some military/cold war context to that. Are there bombers that needed that kind of runway length? Having said that, the master plan did not provide for a military area.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:13 pm

I would have guessed the 19k was for SSTs...
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:34 pm

Yes, Hamburg-Kaltenkirchen was intended to be the base of Lufthansas Concordes and Boeing 2707s. I am pretty sure people these days expected even larger and faster planes in the future, that would need looooong runways for takeoff. Maybe this is the reason they left space for so much runway.
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bevan7
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:37 pm

I heard that this airport is scheduled to open before the new Berlin airport.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:33 pm

NiMar wrote:
I would have guessed the 19k was for SSTs...


The Concorde did not need extraordinarily long runways. I wonder if anyone knows what runway length the 2707 would have required.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:04 pm

Under the article the OP linked there is a long comment from "airport addict". It has good infos.
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:22 pm

dennypayne wrote:
N14AZ wrote:



Avgeeks should check out Hamburg's Miniatur Wunderland though, with its' working scale-model airport.

http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com



I have been to the miniature museum in Hamburg and yes it is amazing. A must see if you visit this nice city.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:56 pm

airporthistory wrote:
NiMar wrote:
I would have guessed the 19k was for SSTs...


The Concorde did not need extraordinarily long runways. I wonder if anyone knows what runway length the 2707 would have required.


Found out elsewhere. The Boeing 2707 needed 10,500 feet at MTOW. I don't know of any other greenfield civilian airport scheme that had provision to extend the runways up to 19,000 feet. The closest example I could find is in my own article on CDG, where the main runways could be extended up to 16,000 feet: https://www.airporthistory.org/charles-de-gaulle-1.html
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:00 pm

DLHAM wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Hamburg is actually Germany’s second biggest city so it would have been a good fit


Depends whether you consider administrative boundaries, or urban areas.

The biggest urban areas are Ruhrgebiet >6 M and Berlin >4 M, followed by Cologne, Hamburg, Munich and Frankfurt about 2 million each. Extending to metropolitan areas or catchment areas changes a bit, and not in favour of Hamburg (though 5 M).


Theres around 6 Million people within 90 minutes of driving from Hamburg. In 2 hours driving there are 10 million people around Hamburg. Around the Rhein-Ruhr area its more of course (15-20 million?), but also several big Hubs not too far away (FRA, AMS, BRU). HAM is pretty far away by ground transport from any Hub. Up north the catchment area even reaches far inside of Demark.

Also, the area around Hamburg is one of the wealthiest in the EU.


Bundesland Hamburg (but also Bremen) may be the richest states per capita in Germany (with Bavaria being the number 3), but from a absolute value it's not that big (Hamburg 9th, Bremen 16th). The economy in Bavaria is 5 times larger than the economy in Hamburg, The city of Munich is the richest city in Germany. Moreover, the businesses in the Munich area are relative more interesting for airlines (Finance, R&D). Harbours may generate a lot of traffic, but the yield is not that high. Moreover, Munich also serves parts of Baden - Wurttemberg, which is the state with the third largest economy in Germany. As such there is no reason to assume that LH would create a hub in Hamburg instead of Munich. Especially when you consider the very good location of MUC in Europe.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:37 pm

LJ wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
YIMBY wrote:

Depends whether you consider administrative boundaries, or urban areas.

The biggest urban areas are Ruhrgebiet >6 M and Berlin >4 M, followed by Cologne, Hamburg, Munich and Frankfurt about 2 million each. Extending to metropolitan areas or catchment areas changes a bit, and not in favour of Hamburg (though 5 M).


Theres around 6 Million people within 90 minutes of driving from Hamburg. In 2 hours driving there are 10 million people around Hamburg. Around the Rhein-Ruhr area its more of course (15-20 million?), but also several big Hubs not too far away (FRA, AMS, BRU). HAM is pretty far away by ground transport from any Hub. Up north the catchment area even reaches far inside of Demark.

Also, the area around Hamburg is one of the wealthiest in the EU.


Bundesland Hamburg (but also Bremen) may be the richest states per capita in Germany (with Bavaria being the number 3), but from a absolute value it's not that big (Hamburg 9th, Bremen 16th). The economy in Bavaria is 5 times larger than the economy in Hamburg, The city of Munich is the richest city in Germany. Moreover, the businesses in the Munich area are relative more interesting for airlines (Finance, R&D). Harbours may generate a lot of traffic, but the yield is not that high. Moreover, Munich also serves parts of Baden - Wurttemberg, which is the state with the third largest economy in Germany. As such there is no reason to assume that LH would create a hub in Hamburg instead of Munich. Especially when you consider the very good location of MUC in Europe.
¨

I do not know why people try to talk Hamburg down. But perhaps to argument why Hamburg Airport has not more international connections than it has.

No München as a city is today not richer than Hamburg. But the München metro area is. Yes, I do not believe that HAM will again become a Lufthansa hub, I simply do not expect LH to increase the number of hubs in Germany.
Yes Bavaria as a state has a bigger economy than Hamburg, but Bavaria is quite a bit bigger and from some parts of Bavaria, München is not the most convenient airport. Baden Württemberg has Stuttgart.
The economy in Hamburg was week some time ago, but a big part in that was the downturn in shipbuilding in Europe. The harbour is big in Hamburg, but hardly the mainstay today. The biggest industry in Hamburg is aviation today, not only Airbus, but many suppliers.
Hamburg has today a quite diverse industry, cars, oil, chemical, pharmaceutical, medical, shipbuilding, to name some. Hamburg is the German media center. There are also banks, insurance companies, hardly less than München. The German banking center is Frankfurt. The stock exchange in Hamburg was founded in 1558.

The average income in Hamburg is number 4 in Europe, only behind London, Luxemburg and Brussels and has been on the way up the last years.

I do not think one will find a reason, in the Industry, how rich the population is, the population of the metro area and so on the reason why Hamburg has a second tier airport. I think it is just the luck of the draw. Lufthansa decided to move their hub elsewhere and that is that.
 
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:35 pm

dennypayne wrote:
N14AZ wrote:

Revelation wrote:
Nice article! I think MUC/Bavaria has more of a tourist draw than HAM/Northern Germany?

True, better beer, better weather, better food.


Avgeeks should check out Hamburg's Miniatur Wunderland though, with its' working scale-model airport.

http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com


Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Yeah, I definitely recommend a visit to Miniatur Wunderland for anyone visiting Hamburg. I was last there in 2004 when they had only 4 layouts including the US layout and were working on the airport. Now, they have 8 or 9 layouts with a few more in the pipeline. I need to go there again, maybe next year.
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:59 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I do not know why people try to talk Hamburg down. But perhaps to argument why Hamburg Airport has not more international connections than it has.

No München as a city is today not richer than Hamburg. But the München metro area is. Yes, I do not believe that HAM will again become a Lufthansa hub, I simply do not expect LH to increase the number of hubs in Germany.
Yes Bavaria as a state has a bigger economy than Hamburg, but Bavaria is quite a bit bigger and from some parts of Bavaria, München is not the most convenient airport. Baden Württemberg has Stuttgart.
The economy in Hamburg was week some time ago, but a big part in that was the downturn in shipbuilding in Europe. The harbour is big in Hamburg, but hardly the mainstay today. The biggest industry in Hamburg is aviation today, not only Airbus, but many suppliers.
Hamburg has today a quite diverse industry, cars, oil, chemical, pharmaceutical, medical, shipbuilding, to name some. Hamburg is the German media center. There are also banks, insurance companies, hardly less than München. The German banking center is Frankfurt. The stock exchange in Hamburg was founded in 1558.

The average income in Hamburg is number 4 in Europe, only behind London, Luxemburg and Brussels and has been on the way up the last years.

I do not think one will find a reason, in the Industry, how rich the population is, the population of the metro area and so on the reason why Hamburg has a second tier airport. I think it is just the luck of the draw. Lufthansa decided to move their hub elsewhere and that is that.


Funny thing is, that Hamburg has a demand to major Destinations in North America and Asia comparable with Berlin and Dusseldorf.
For example ORD to HAM even has the highest passenger numbers out of the 3 for years. Same with DFW, IAH and BOS. Hamburg has more Passengers to YYZ than DUS, more Passengers to MIA than BER. Almost as much passengers to IAD as BER and much more than DUS.
Even with the Singapore Airlines Nonstop flight DUS-SIN Hamburg manages to have not much less total passengers to SIN.

Also there is no real lack of people traveling for Business reasons: SIN 60%, HKG 60%, SIN 36%, NYC 34%, ORD 25%, ATL 45% ... But the problem is that the people are drilled to book connecting flights, the politics do not show any efforts at all to draw more international flights. Lufthansa is doing their best in the background (lobbying in the Department of Transportation) to prevent Airlines from flying to Hamburg, two chinese Airlines for example.

These are the numbers for September this year by the way, EWR has such a high decline due to the absence of United. Sorry for it being in German! But the numbers are Total passengers one way, percentage change from the same month in 2018 and passengers per day each way (average).

Image


dampfnudel wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
N14AZ wrote:


True, better beer, better weather, better food.


Avgeeks should check out Hamburg's Miniatur Wunderland though, with its' working scale-model airport.

http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com


Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Yeah, I definitely recommend a visit to Miniatur Wunderland for anyone visiting Hamburg. I was last there in 2004 when they had only 4 layouts including the US layout and were working on the airport. Now, they have 8 or 9 layouts with a few more in the pipeline. I need to go there again, maybe next year.


You should definitely do it!!! I was there a few months ago, the first time after like 4 or 5 years. So much has changed, theres so much to see you will spend hours there and still havent seen everything. And the best is that its not TOO expensive IMO. But dont go there on weekend, just dont do it. Best is during weekdays in the later afternoon (school groups etc in the morning and at noon/early afternoon).
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dampfnudel
Posts: 490
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:15 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
dennypayne wrote:

Avgeeks should check out Hamburg's Miniatur Wunderland though, with its' working scale-model airport.

http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com


Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Yeah, I definitely recommend a visit to Miniatur Wunderland for anyone visiting Hamburg. I was last there in 2004 when they had only 4 layouts including the US layout and were working on the airport. Now, they have 8 or 9 layouts with a few more in the pipeline. I need to go there again, maybe next year.

You should definitely do it!!! I was there a few months ago, the first time after like 4 or 5 years. So much has changed, theres so much to see you will spend hours there and still havent seen everything. And the best is that its not TOO expensive IMO. But dont go there on weekend, just dont do it. Best is during weekdays in the later afternoon (school groups etc in the morning and at noon/early afternoon).


The line wasn’t too long when I went there in 2004, a half hour at most, during the morning. Now, you can buy tickets online and reserve the time you want to come, bypassing those who just walk in. I was thinking of taking the ICE train from where I’ll be staying (Aschaffenburg, near Frankfurt) and arriving at the Hbf in the early afternoon, checking into a hotel before going there. The next day I could take the train/ferry to Denmark to visit some relatives there.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:33 pm

Living about 90 miles north of Kaltenkirchen.

From a political point of view, Kaltenkirchen was always complicated. Just like BER with Berlin and Brandenburg, Kaltenkirchen involved two different federal states with Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein, sometimes governed by different parties/coalitions or even similar coalitions but different agenda.

Don't know about dense fog. Sometimes yes but not "quite often", if anything low clouds. Significant weather here is gusty, high winds from northwestern or southwestern directions.

Tourist draw … Bavaria has mountains, we have two coastlines and also very good beer and food.

What if … Hamburg would be a much stronger business place and Schleswig-Holstein would be in a better financial shape, too. I'm sad that it never realised, I would be a frequent Visitor to that airport :D
 
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DLHAM
Posts: 404
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:16 am

I always thought a joint Mega-Airport for Berlin and Hamburg in the middle between them would be a great Idea, in the area of Wittenberge/Perleberg, Brandenburg. Lots of room there, very low population density. From both Hamburg and Berlin you get there within 45 Minutes by ICE train, if they build a Maglev travel time could be shortened to under 30 minutes.

Now its too late as the new Berlin Airport has started construction "recently". Maybe Berlin could get a new Airport faster by just building that Hamburg-Berlin airport and break that BER thing off, instead of waiting for it for an eternity.

HAM and TXL could be kept in seriously downgraded versions for domestic flights and flights to a few important european destinations for business travelers.
This would be a monster of an airport with an insanely huge catchment area, besides the two multi million cities Hamburg and Berlin there are Schwerin and Rostock to the north and Braunschweig, Wolfsburg, Magdeburg and even Leipzig/Halle to the south, all of which could be connected by train with decent travel times to that airport.
Airlines could fly to both Berlin and Hamburg, with one plane. Sounds efficient.
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FlyingElvii
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:19 am

airporthistory wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
I’d say military considerations played a HUGE Part in this design. Perfect for the giant NATO Airlift plans had the balloon ever gone up, away from civilian infrastructure, and far enough back from the border to be easier to defend.


Hi, were you referring to the location or the fact that the main runways could be lengthened to over 19,000 feet? Regarding the latter, I was thinking that there might be some military/cold war context to that. Are there bombers that needed that kind of runway length? Having said that, the master plan did not provide for a military area.


“Reforger-REturn Of Forces to GERmany”
There was a plan to airlift huge quantities of men and material to Germany in the event of war, within hours of the event, using every available aircraft in NATO, military AND Civilian. Several depots existed for just that purpose, to be manned by troops from North America and elsewhere, flown over. The proximity of the port facilities would have made it an excellent choice.

There were ships that sat preloaded with supplies and equipment for decades, ready to sail to Europe in 7 days notice, and arrive in three weeks. It would have been the largest convoy in history. The airlift was the stop-gap until the convoys unloaded.

This was wargamed and excersized several times in the 70’s and 80’s. It is quite interesting, look it up.
 
max999
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:15 am

dampfnudel wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
N14AZ wrote:


True, better beer, better weather, better food.


Avgeeks should check out Hamburg's Miniatur Wunderland though, with its' working scale-model airport.

http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com


Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Yeah, I definitely recommend a visit to Miniatur Wunderland for anyone visiting Hamburg. I was last there in 2004 when they had only 4 layouts including the US layout and were working on the airport. Now, they have 8 or 9 layouts with a few more in the pipeline. I need to go there again, maybe next year.


I took a behind the scenes tour of Miniatur Wunderland. I got to see how the machines that make the planes take off and land at the airport! Here are some links to videos I took of those machines.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WY4Hz53tgRxXU8sJ6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/T163ehYRd6PLPLNeA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Gyf3tqiFkMvG54oo7
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
Noshow
Posts: 1260
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:36 am

Concerning Reforger: Kaltenkirchen was way to close to the frontline in WW3. Everything east of the Rhine river was under immediate threat of destruction including nuclear. Look where the main US bases are: More to the west, west of the Rhine river.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/commen ... lish_army/
 
LJ
Posts: 4952
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:15 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Hamburg has today a quite diverse industry, cars, oil, chemical, pharmaceutical, medical, shipbuilding, to name some. Hamburg is the German media center. There are also banks, insurance companies, hardly less than München. The German banking center is Frankfurt. The stock exchange in Hamburg was founded in 1558.


I'm well aware of the size of the finance community in Hamburg, but again the one in Munich is much bigger. Nothing bad for Hamburg, but just reality.

mjoelnir wrote:
I do not think one will find a reason, in the Industry, how rich the population is, the population of the metro area and so on the reason why Hamburg has a second tier airport. I think it is just the luck of the draw. Lufthansa decided to move their hub elsewhere and that is that.


It's not luck. Its location. location and even more location. Yes, Hamburg is wealthy and even Bremen is wealthier than most parts of Germany. However, when you compare a small geographical area with a high income per capita to large geographical area having an almost identical income per capita, the choice is easy to make. In addition, Hamburg is, economically, on the outskirts of Europe compared to Munich which is/was, economically, centrally in Europe. This was less applicable at the time of this project, but in hindsight it wasn't a bad choice.

mjoelnir wrote:
I do not know why people try to talk Hamburg down. But perhaps to argument why Hamburg Airport has not more international connections than it has.


It's not downplaying Hamburg, AFAIK Hamburg is the third city in Germany which is very much neglected if you look it from an aviation point of view. However, there are valid reasons why this plan never materialised and why LH choose Munich over Hamburg for its second hub.

BTW Personally I really like Hamburg, but that's probably because I'm Dutch.
 
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DLHAM
Posts: 404
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Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:34 pm

LJ wrote:
It's not downplaying Hamburg, AFAIK Hamburg is the third city in Germany which is very much neglected if you look it from an aviation point of view.


Number two, Munich is number 3.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9220
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:48 pm

DLHAM wrote:
LJ wrote:
It's not downplaying Hamburg, AFAIK Hamburg is the third city in Germany which is very much neglected if you look it from an aviation point of view.


Number two, Munich is number 3.


München is hardly neglected in regards to aviation.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9220
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:22 pm

LJ wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Hamburg has today a quite diverse industry, cars, oil, chemical, pharmaceutical, medical, shipbuilding, to name some. Hamburg is the German media center. There are also banks, insurance companies, hardly less than München. The German banking center is Frankfurt. The stock exchange in Hamburg was founded in 1558.


I'm well aware of the size of the finance community in Hamburg, but again the one in Munich is much bigger. Nothing bad for Hamburg, but just reality.

mjoelnir wrote:
I do not think one will find a reason, in the Industry, how rich the population is, the population of the metro area and so on the reason why Hamburg has a second tier airport. I think it is just the luck of the draw. Lufthansa decided to move their hub elsewhere and that is that.


It's not luck. Its location. location and even more location. Yes, Hamburg is wealthy and even Bremen is wealthier than most parts of Germany. However, when you compare a small geographical area with a high income per capita to large geographical area having an almost identical income per capita, the choice is easy to make. In addition, Hamburg is, economically, on the outskirts of Europe compared to Munich which is/was, economically, centrally in Europe. This was less applicable at the time of this project, but in hindsight it wasn't a bad choice.

mjoelnir wrote:
I do not know why people try to talk Hamburg down. But perhaps to argument why Hamburg Airport has not more international connections than it has.


It's not downplaying Hamburg, AFAIK Hamburg is the third city in Germany which is very much neglected if you look it from an aviation point of view. However, there are valid reasons why this plan never materialised and why LH choose Munich over Hamburg for its second hub.

BTW Personally I really like Hamburg, but that's probably because I'm Dutch.


Hamburg lost out to be the first hub, when Lufthansa went to Frankfurt instead.

If you talk about location, than Hamburg and yes Berlin could be main hubs, and Stuttgart should have a chance.

If we look at O&D in regards to German cities, #1 is Berlin #2 Hamburg and that does not count people leaving the cities by rail today.

Both BER (in the future) as well as HAM are far from competing airports.

You completely discount the influence the decision by the dominating airline does. The airport they decide for will grow and the airport they decide against will shrink.
It would take the advent of another airline taking an airport in a German city as a hub, to change the structure.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:50 pm

Noshow wrote:
Concerning Reforger: Kaltenkirchen was way to close to the frontline in WW3. Everything east of the Rhine river was under immediate threat of destruction including nuclear. Look where the main US bases are: More to the west, west of the Rhine river.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/commen ... lish_army/

True, but in a build-up scenario, that location would be critical.
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 4003
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Hamburg Kaltenkirchen: The DFW of Europe.

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:33 am

MD80 wrote:
Maybe, it's a DC-9 of KLM?

airporthistory wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Love the Concordes at the gates, in the plans. :)

Can anyone identify the DC 9 in the picture showing HAM at the mid 1960-ies?

I have the images in hi-res. I can indeed confirm that it's a KLM DC-9.

Oh, I cannot deny that I am a little bit disappointed. Just an ordinary KL DC 9… Anyhow, thanks for your feedback.

FlyingElvii wrote:
“Reforger-REturn Of Forces to GERmany” [...] This was wargamed and excersized several times in the 70’s and 80’s. It is quite interesting, look it up.

These manoeuvers were always a great source for special visitors at Rhein Main Air Base and other airports in Germany. I loved it…

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