UAUA
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QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:36 am

Is this true?

They say ETOPS= an issue for twin engine aircraft as the B747-400s are retiring soon. If that's the case why not use the A380 then?
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a320fan
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:04 am

You have no source on whether they are ending the flights, so I can’t say if it’s true. However they likely won’t use the A380 because their fleet is so tightly scheduled on QFs actual operations. The Antarctic flights usually operate in the southern summer too which is a peak season for the airlines long haul routes.
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smartplane
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:19 am

Perhaps another possible trigger if the rumour turns out to be correct. IATA input at CORSIA workshops is scenic flights using commercial aircraft will be classified as 'unproductive' flights, having adverse effects on an airline and country's emissions calculations.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:34 am

smartplane wrote:
Perhaps another possible trigger if the rumour turns out to be correct. IATA input at CORSIA workshops is scenic flights using commercial aircraft will be classified as 'unproductive' flights, having adverse effects on an airline and country's emissions calculations.



Then they should shut down the whole cruise ship industry as well? Tour busses too. All optional modes of transport

There are plenty of “scenic” emissions in the world keeping tourism afloat.

I would argue the best way to save the south pole is to let people see it and feel empathy through education
 
eamondzhang
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:50 am

jfklganyc wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Perhaps another possible trigger if the rumour turns out to be correct. IATA input at CORSIA workshops is scenic flights using commercial aircraft will be classified as 'unproductive' flights, having adverse effects on an airline and country's emissions calculations.



Then they should shut down the whole cruise ship industry as well? Tour busses too. All optional modes of transport

There are plenty of “scenic” emissions in the world keeping tourism afloat.

I would argue the best way to save the south pole is to let people see it and feel empathy through education

I'm not surprised by these sorts of political correct statements by IATA - and in Western world in general.

And in Australia alone, just sit back and watch idiots disrupting people's life and how much more unnecessary polutions it caused and you'll have a clue. Same goes for a fair bit of countries in Europe.

Michael
 
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Dalavia
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:01 pm

I was on an Antarctic flight a few weeks ago and overheard a long conversation between the manager who organises the flights and one of the passengers. The manager said that plans are already in place to use Qantas 787s when the 747s are retired.

That sounded strange to me because of ETOPS restrictions, but he spoke as though it had already been decided. He added that it was a bit of an issue because of the 1-2-1 layout in Business class, making it difficult for couples to sit together without being separated by the aisle.

I’d also add that the 787 makes quality photographs more difficult because of the fine matrix of black dots in the windows for the dimming mechanism (although scratched windows on ageing 747s also create some issues).

I can see why they would not use A380s as the sidewalls are so thick, although his reason for not using A380s was that the wide chord of the wing obscures the viewing for too many seats. It might also be that Qantas has no spare A380s to offer.

The flights are not operated by Qantas; they are charters. Perhaps the folk who organise the charters should look to lease a 4-engined A340 from a different airline when Qantas retires the 747s?
 
F27500
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:02 pm

Seem kinda silly anyway ... really only the people who sit near the windows can see anything . . the ones on aisle and in the center cabin seats see nothing ... whats the point ?
 
Pcoder
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:09 pm

It will probably continue, as the new EDTO rules from CASA will allow them to operate the 789 on this flight.

Although it probably won't count as an airfield, but the Casey Base does have a strip in the summer months, could that be included as a diversionary airport?
 
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Dalavia
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:12 pm

F27500 wrote:
Seem kinda silly anyway ... really only the people who sit near the windows can see anything . . the ones on aisle and in the center cabin seats see nothing ... whats the point ?


The way the flights are organised, everyone changes seats mid-way through the flight to double the number of people who get window seats.

Before boarding, every passenger receives two boarding passes, one for the first half of the flight and the other showing the ‘new’ seat after the mid-flight swap.

Having said that, the cheapest seats are for the central block of four seats in Economy Class, as those passengers never get to a window except by leaving their seats and leaning across other passengers or trying to snatch a view though the windows on the doors. They seemed to spend most of the flight drinking alcohol and watching the small video screens that did show some documentaries about the Antarctic.
 
Gemuser
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:12 pm

Dalavia wrote:
The flights are not operated by Qantas; they are charters. Perhaps the folk who organise the charters should look to lease a 4-engined A340 from a different airline when Qantas retires the 747s?

The flights are very much operated by Qantas. Yes they are charters but the charater does not have any operational authority or libality [unless they hold a charter [or higher] AOC for the aircraft used. This would be a very unusual sitution. I very much doubt CASA would approve these flights with 2 engine aircraft.

Gemuser
 
Gemuser
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:19 pm

Pcoder wrote:
It will probably continue, as the new EDTO rules from CASA will allow them to operate the 789 on this flight.

Although it probably won't count as an airfield, but the Casey Base does have a strip in the summer months, could that be included as a diversionary airport?

I much doubt these flights will continue with 2 engined aircraft.The B744 already operates with a concession aganist the CAO for sub 60 degree South operations. I do doubt CASA will extend that to 2 engine aircraft, but who knows? [I am still suprised they allowed >180 min EDTO, there was talk of Australia reputating the ICAO annex which allowed it, but it did not happen].

Gemuser
 
toobz
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:38 pm

Sounds like we have folks on this board that have been on these flights. How much do they run cost wise? It would be fun to do!
 
cedarjet
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:40 pm

I did one of these and found it incredibly stressful. An unbelievable amount of drunkenness, the guy next to me was doing coke (which he called “go go”) off the flip down tray etc. There is a figleaf of respectability provided by the presence of Antarctic explorers doing lectures en route but the PA was totally drowned out by the punters partying like maniacs. I know I sound like a snob but it was a really low class crowd, I expected retired school teachers but it was more chemical plant workers from Bankstown. Saw some snow-covered terrain but nothing you can’t see on a Milan to Paris A320. Terrible waste of emissions at the very scene of the crime. I can’t believe these flights are still a thing. Then again (in reference to a comment above) same with cruise ships (which should obviously be outlawed unless you think climate science is a hoax). Ironically it was me telling my buddies at Air Events about my experience that gave rise to annual Arctic sightseeing flights aboard Air-Berlin, which have stopped due to climate crisis awareness.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:57 pm

Not surprised that school teachers don't go on these flights. Went on a cruise from Argentina to Antarctica - 10% of the passengers were either teachers travelling duringvschool holidays or former/retired teachers
 
FCRO
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:14 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Not surprised that school teachers don't go on these flights. Went on a cruise from Argentina to Antarctica - 10% of the passengers were either teachers travelling duringvschool holidays or former/retired teachers


How was the cruise?
Was it worth?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:20 pm

Qantas will end the charters if it does not make them money, simple, they are not a charity. Same way BA would charter the Concorde.
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westgate
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:31 pm

cedarjet wrote:
I know I sound like a snob but it was a really low class crowd, I expected retired school teachers but it was more chemical plant workers from Bankstown.


Don't worry, you definitely don't sound like a snob. Sounds like you got a flight with a large number high paid blue collar workers (the ones with far more money than sense), who thought a flight over Antarctica would make a great 'lads night out' !!!


cedarjet wrote:

the guy next to me was doing coke (which he called “go go”) off the flip down tray etc


This is really unbelievable, but when the flight is simply landing at the same airport it took off from, the possibility of any drug smugglers and thereby any drug searches would effectively be zero !!!
 
cedarjet
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:58 pm

westgate wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
I know I sound like a snob but it was a really low class crowd, I expected retired school teachers but it was more chemical plant workers from Bankstown.


Don't worry, you definitely don't sound like a snob. Sounds like you got a flight with a large number high paid blue collar workers (the ones with far more money than sense), who thought a flight over Antarctica would make a great 'lads night out' !!!

cedarjet wrote:

the guy next to me was doing coke (which he called “go go”) off the flip down tray etc


This is really unbelievable, but when the flight is simply landing at the same airport it took off from, the possibility of any drug smugglers and thereby any drug searches would effectively be zero !!!

Thank you because I hate snobbishness in others! Well paid blue collar workers on a lads night out is exactly right. During boarding I said to the flight attendant she must have lots of seniority to work the flight but she said they get double flight pay and two confirmed tix anywhere on the Qantas network to decompress. I told her I didn’t believe her and she said just you wait and see!

Yeah it’s a domestic flight, leaves from the domestic terminal (the gate was opposite the Qantas museum, I guess an A330 gate) with no chance of detecting drugs. My seat mate offered me some and I do have some prior form myself when it comes to partying but even in the old days I could never do coke without a few puffs on a joint or at least a Marlboro Light so the idea of craving a smoke for ten hours on top of what was already a very stressful situation was a deal breaker.

I know the whole thing sounds hilarious but extremely confined quarters in the company of 100s of aggressively drunk middle aged Australians is just not a good time.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
johns624
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:07 pm

cedarjet wrote:
I did one of these...Terrible waste of emissions at the very scene of the crime. I can’t believe these flights are still a thing. Then again (in reference to a comment above) same with cruise ships (which should obviously be outlawed unless you think climate science is a hoax).

Translation--I got to do it but now I don't want anyone else to have the opportunity.
 
Gasman
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:44 pm

cedarjet wrote:
westgate wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
I know I sound like a snob but it was a really low class crowd, I expected retired school teachers but it was more chemical plant workers from Bankstown.


Don't worry, you definitely don't sound like a snob. Sounds like you got a flight with a large number high paid blue collar workers (the ones with far more money than sense), who thought a flight over Antarctica would make a great 'lads night out' !!!

cedarjet wrote:

the guy next to me was doing coke (which he called “go go”) off the flip down tray etc


This is really unbelievable, but when the flight is simply landing at the same airport it took off from, the possibility of any drug smugglers and thereby any drug searches would effectively be zero !!!

Thank you because I hate snobbishness in others! Well paid blue collar workers on a lads night out is exactly right. During boarding I said to the flight attendant she must have lots of seniority to work the flight but she said they get double flight pay and two confirmed tix anywhere on the Qantas network to decompress. I told her I didn’t believe her and she said just you wait and see!

Yeah it’s a domestic flight, leaves from the domestic terminal (the gate was opposite the Qantas museum, I guess an A330 gate) with no chance of detecting drugs. My seat mate offered me some and I do have some prior form myself when it comes to partying but even in the old days I could never do coke without a few puffs on a joint or at least a Marlboro Light so the idea of craving a smoke for ten hours on top of what was already a very stressful situation was a deal breaker.

I know the whole thing sounds hilarious but extremely confined quarters in the company of 100s of aggressively drunk middle aged Australians is just not a good time.


My God it sounds like a nightmare.

Apparently drunkenness was also an issue on NZ's scenic Antarctic flights.
 
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OA412
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:01 pm

Can OP please provide a source?
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airevents
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:18 pm

Sounds like a trip to Bali with all those intoxicated Australians... I am happy I don´t organize North Pole flights any more...
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:41 pm

FCRO wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Not surprised that school teachers don't go on these flights. Went on a cruise from Argentina to Antarctica - 10% of the passengers were either teachers travelling duringvschool holidays or former/retired teachers


How was the cruise?
Was it worth?


55 pax on a refurbished spy ship with 5 days on the ice. Best trip abroad I've ever taken and that was 16 years ago. If I win millions in the lottery, this is where I would go back first
 
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:39 pm

My experience of the flight was far more positive than the descriptions above, but to be fair, I was in Business Class because I wanted good window access for getting photos to use in a book I'm writing.

The views were fabulous. I've also flown over other snowy areas such as northern Canada and Greenland, and the views on the Antractic flight were an order of magnitude better; the air was clearer and the altitude of the aircraft was lower.

The pilot did circuits so that everyone could get a view over the wing as the plane banked, although being seated on the starboard side of the aircraft, I did notice that the pilot did significantly more anticlockwise circuits than clockwise, favouring passengers with windows on the left.

There was very little drunkeness up the front of the plane (unlike further back), the commentaries by various Antarctic experts were informative, but I have to say that the constant requests for donations to aid the restoration of Mawson's Hut, the in-flight auction and sales of souvenirs such as baseball caps and drink can holders became quite tiresome.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:05 am

a320fan wrote:
You have no source on whether they are ending the flights, so I can’t say if it’s true. However they likely won’t use the A380 because their fleet is so tightly scheduled on QFs actual operations. The Antarctic flights usually operate in the southern summer too which is a peak season for the airlines long haul routes.


The A380 also is not so good for outside views. The wing blocks a significant number of the seats and the upper deck window views are not that good. I don’t imagine it would be a good plane for such flights.
 
Thatcher
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:58 am

Gasman wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
westgate wrote:

Don't worry, you definitely don't sound like a snob. Sounds like you got a flight with a large number high paid blue collar workers (the ones with far more money than sense), who thought a flight over Antarctica would make a great 'lads night out' !!!



This is really unbelievable, but when the flight is simply landing at the same airport it took off from, the possibility of any drug smugglers and thereby any drug searches would effectively be zero !!!

Thank you because I hate snobbishness in others! Well paid blue collar workers on a lads night out is exactly right. During boarding I said to the flight attendant she must have lots of seniority to work the flight but she said they get double flight pay and two confirmed tix anywhere on the Qantas network to decompress. I told her I didn’t believe her and she said just you wait and see!

Yeah it’s a domestic flight, leaves from the domestic terminal (the gate was opposite the Qantas museum, I guess an A330 gate) with no chance of detecting drugs. My seat mate offered me some and I do have some prior form myself when it comes to partying but even in the old days I could never do coke without a few puffs on a joint or at least a Marlboro Light so the idea of craving a smoke for ten hours on top of what was already a very stressful situation was a deal breaker.

I know the whole thing sounds hilarious but extremely confined quarters in the company of 100s of aggressively drunk middle aged Australians is just not a good time.


My God it sounds like a nightmare.

Apparently drunkenness was also an issue on NZ's scenic Antarctic flights.


These types are known as 'CUBs' in Australia - Cashed Up Bogans. The population has somewhat died down since the end of the 'resources boom' that ran for around a decade from the early 2000s.

I'll bet jet-ski sales have declined too.
My former profile name was MooLor
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:24 am

Dalavia wrote:
I was on an Antarctic flight a few weeks ago and overheard a long conversation between the manager who organises the flights and one of the passengers. The manager said that plans are already in place to use Qantas 787s when the 747s are retired.

That sounded strange to me because of ETOPS restrictions, but he spoke as though it had already been decided. He added that it was a bit of an issue because of the 1-2-1 layout in Business class, making it difficult for couples to sit together without being separated by the aisle.

I’d also add that the 787 makes quality photographs more difficult because of the fine matrix of black dots in the windows for the dimming mechanism (although scratched windows on ageing 747s also create some issues).

I can see why they would not use A380s as the sidewalls are so thick, although his reason for not using A380s was that the wide chord of the wing obscures the viewing for too many seats. It might also be that Qantas has no spare A380s to offer.

The flights are not operated by Qantas; they are charters. Perhaps the folk who organise the charters should look to lease a 4-engined A340 from a different airline when Qantas retires the 747s?


Agree, flying to Antarctica on a 747 is iconic. That’s why I rushed to take one of the flight in Nov before 747 are retired
 
ItnStln
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:03 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
FCRO wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Not surprised that school teachers don't go on these flights. Went on a cruise from Argentina to Antarctica - 10% of the passengers were either teachers travelling duringvschool holidays or former/retired teachers


How was the cruise?
Was it worth?


55 pax on a refurbished spy ship with 5 days on the ice. Best trip abroad I've ever taken and that was 16 years ago. If I win millions in the lottery, this is where I would go back first

Do you have any more information such as a link? I'd like to look into that.
 
UAUA
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:23 pm

OA412 wrote:
Can OP please provide a source?


I just heard it from a QF friend. That's it. Sorry there is no source.
My former profile name was United Airline.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:21 pm

ItnStln wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
FCRO wrote:

How was the cruise?
Was it worth?


55 pax on a refurbished spy ship with 5 days on the ice. Best trip abroad I've ever taken and that was 16 years ago. If I win millions in the lottery, this is where I would go back first

Do you have any more information such as a link? I'd like to look into that.


Lonely Planet have a guidebook on Antarctica - the 6th edition was published in December 2017, so should be fairly current - you probably need to visit a bookshop with an extensive range if you want to buy the book. I went in Xmas 2003, so my personal knowledge is likely out of date.

If you are interested, pay very very close attention to average climate data when choosing which dates to go (the weather can vary from wonderful to awful), spend more time on the ice than you think you will possibly want (it's likely you're only chance in life to go, nobody wants to leave when their time is up and it's like nowhere else on earth), go from southern Argentina or Chile - the trip from S.Africa or Australasia takes far too long, and finally (particularly for a.net) - do not fly to the ice; the continent is remote and crossing the Drake Passage by ship reinforces the remoteness
 
johns624
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:32 pm

Wilderness Travel, Mountain Travel Sobek and REI all normally have Antarctic trips. They don't run the trips themselves but just contract with a 3rd party that consolidates groups with the ship owners.
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:12 am

eamondzhang wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Perhaps another possible trigger if the rumour turns out to be correct. IATA input at CORSIA workshops is scenic flights using commercial aircraft will be classified as 'unproductive' flights, having adverse effects on an airline and country's emissions calculations.



Then they should shut down the whole cruise ship industry as well? Tour busses too. All optional modes of transport

There are plenty of “scenic” emissions in the world keeping tourism afloat.

I would argue the best way to save the south pole is to let people see it and feel empathy through education

I'm not surprised by these sorts of political correct statements by IATA - and in Western world in general.

And in Australia alone, just sit back and watch idiots disrupting people's life and how much more unnecessary polutions it caused and you'll have a clue. Same goes for a fair bit of countries in Europe.

Michael


Pretty sure the continued survival of all humanity is more important than pleasure cruises, tbh.
 
mga707
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:01 am

johns624 wrote:
Wilderness Travel, Mountain Travel Sobek and REI all normally have Antarctic trips. They don't run the trips themselves but just contract with a 3rd party that consolidates groups with the ship owners.


Lindblad/National Geographic runs many Antarctic cruises, on ships specifically designed for them. 'Bucket list' item for me, even though they are pricey, as their cruises are excellent. Been on two--Galapagos and Costa Rica/Panama.
 
cpd
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:12 am

Thatcher wrote:
Gasman wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Thank you because I hate snobbishness in others! Well paid blue collar workers on a lads night out is exactly right. During boarding I said to the flight attendant she must have lots of seniority to work the flight but she said they get double flight pay and two confirmed tix anywhere on the Qantas network to decompress. I told her I didn’t believe her and she said just you wait and see!

Yeah it’s a domestic flight, leaves from the domestic terminal (the gate was opposite the Qantas museum, I guess an A330 gate) with no chance of detecting drugs. My seat mate offered me some and I do have some prior form myself when it comes to partying but even in the old days I could never do coke without a few puffs on a joint or at least a Marlboro Light so the idea of craving a smoke for ten hours on top of what was already a very stressful situation was a deal breaker.

I know the whole thing sounds hilarious but extremely confined quarters in the company of 100s of aggressively drunk middle aged Australians is just not a good time.


My God it sounds like a nightmare.

Apparently drunkenness was also an issue on NZ's scenic Antarctic flights.


These types are known as 'CUBs' in Australia - Cashed Up Bogans. The population has somewhat died down since the end of the 'resources boom' that ran for around a decade from the early 2000s.

I'll bet jet-ski sales have declined too.



The cashed up inner city elites can also be spectacularly offensive when they’ve had too much alcohol and/or taking illegal substances. Yes, they wear expensive clothes, drive a nice car and have a respectable job title and live in a respectable location, but that’s all they can claim. I’ve seen a few who had to be removed from a social event for their own good.

I’ve heard all the stories of these particular flights (including some that very inappropriate for this site) so I would never fly on them.
 
Sydscott
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:28 am

cpd wrote:
Thatcher wrote:
Gasman wrote:

My God it sounds like a nightmare.

Apparently drunkenness was also an issue on NZ's scenic Antarctic flights.


These types are known as 'CUBs' in Australia - Cashed Up Bogans. The population has somewhat died down since the end of the 'resources boom' that ran for around a decade from the early 2000s.

I'll bet jet-ski sales have declined too.



The cashed up inner city elites can also be spectacularly offensive when they’ve had too much alcohol and/or taking illegal substances. Yes, they wear expensive clothes, drive a nice car and have a respectable job title and live in a respectable location, but that’s all they can claim. I’ve seen a few who had to be removed from a social event for their own good.

I’ve heard all the stories of these particular flights (including some that very inappropriate for this site) so I would never fly on them.


With the greatest of respect, the cashed up people don't go on sightseeing flights to Antarctica. They fly to Ushuaia, get on a ship and do it properly.

And having been to Antarctica on a ship I can honestly say don't waste your time on a sightseeing flight. You need to go on a relatively small cruise ship and spend a couple of weeks down there actually looking at things. There is no way to truly appreciate Antarctica from a plane.
 
melpax
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:35 pm

Thatcher wrote:

These types are known as 'CUBs' in Australia - Cashed Up Bogans. The population has somewhat died down since the end of the 'resources boom' that ran for around a decade from the early 2000s.

I'll bet jet-ski sales have declined too.


It's not unusual for Tradespeople in Australia to earn more than many degree-qualified professionals, given that most trades here require a 4 year apprenticeship, and govenment licencing to conduct your trade, which restricts numbers somewhat.

The construction unions here are also very militant, unskilled Builder's Labourers in Melbourne earn 6-figure incomes with overtime & shift penalties......
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:05 pm

Can QF wet lease from EK. I am sure EK can keep one or two A380s at MEL in rotation and a crew base.
 
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:03 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Can QF wet lease from EK. I am sure EK can keep one or two A380s at MEL in rotation and a crew base.


The A380 is ill suited for this type of mission. The upper deck windows are not great for sightseeing and the massive wings ruin the view for the better part of both decks. You'd probably need to fly it 3/4 empty to afford folks on board a decent view.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
ItnStln
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:53 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:

55 pax on a refurbished spy ship with 5 days on the ice. Best trip abroad I've ever taken and that was 16 years ago. If I win millions in the lottery, this is where I would go back first

Do you have any more information such as a link? I'd like to look into that.


Lonely Planet have a guidebook on Antarctica - the 6th edition was published in December 2017, so should be fairly current - you probably need to visit a bookshop with an extensive range if you want to buy the book. I went in Xmas 2003, so my personal knowledge is likely out of date.

If you are interested, pay very very close attention to average climate data when choosing which dates to go (the weather can vary from wonderful to awful), spend more time on the ice than you think you will possibly want (it's likely you're only chance in life to go, nobody wants to leave when their time is up and it's like nowhere else on earth), go from southern Argentina or Chile - the trip from S.Africa or Australasia takes far too long, and finally (particularly for a.net) - do not fly to the ice; the continent is remote and crossing the Drake Passage by ship reinforces the remoteness

Thanks, I'll try to find that book and check it out!
 
ItnStln
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:53 pm

johns624 wrote:
Wilderness Travel, Mountain Travel Sobek and REI all normally have Antarctic trips. They don't run the trips themselves but just contract with a 3rd party that consolidates groups with the ship owners.

Thanks, I'll do some research.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2326
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:06 pm

In terms of ETOPS aren't there military fields in Antarctica that can handle large jets if needed?
 
dr1980
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:55 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:35 pm

Does anyone know flight numbers for these flights? I’m interested to see if I can find flight plans etc on flightaware.
Dave/CYHZ
 
smartplane
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:44 pm

Some may consider them the fun police, but there are rules and extra costs costs for unusual / uncommon flights, which parallel those in the shipping industry, proactively supported by the insurance and finance industries, which do not want to be publicly (at least), aligned with polluters and irresponsible operators.

A recent International Shipping Organisation meeting re-visited the current Polar Code, and will increase minimum operator capital and insurance cover requirements.

The major maritime insurers meanwhile will increase Antarctica cover and premiums, as policies are renewed. Most now have an Antarctica and sensitive areas policy extension, at considerable cost to owners, and financiers and lessors are increasingly adding exclusion zones in their T&C's.

What's happening at sea, is mirrored by aviation. Qantas must meet UN minimum capital guidelines set for Antarctica sightseeing trips, which can be mitigated by insurance, effectively an assurance the airline (and insurers) pockets are deep enough to remove all trace of an accident.

An airline's standard hull and liability insurance would not cover these sightseeing trips, as is now the case for air shows (though there are some exemptions if the show is at an approved commercial airport, and nature of the display).

Financiers and insurers are becoming much more proactive. That's why airlines operating into 'hostile' countries and airports tend to fly older, owned aircraft to those destinations, with cover restricted just to specific air frames, so rare to see substitutions.

Presumably travel insurance for cruises and commercial flights to Antarctica reflect the special premiums applied to the ships and aircraft carrying them.
 
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Dalavia
Posts: 451
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:37 pm

dr1980 wrote:
Does anyone know flight numbers for these flights? I’m interested to see if I can find flight plans etc on flightaware.


I was on the flight that started and ended in Sydney on 17th November this year.

My flight numbers were QF2904 (first half of the flight) and QF2914 (second half of the flight).

I didn't check FlightAware but FlightRadar24 didn't show the flights; it was as through the plane was "flying dark" on a covert mission (over-dramatic, I know, but I don't know why they wouldn't show the flight).
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:22 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
In terms of ETOPS aren't there military fields in Antarctica that can handle large jets if needed?


The Antarctic Treaty System of 1959 / 1961 substantially demilitarises Antarctica
 
dr1980
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:55 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:28 pm

Thanks, it does show up on flightaware

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA2904
Dave/CYHZ
 
dcajet
Posts: 4299
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:51 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
In terms of ETOPS aren't there military fields in Antarctica that can handle large jets if needed?


The Antarctic Treaty System of 1959 / 1961 substantially demilitarises Antarctica


Correct, but most if not all bases in Antarctica are run by the respective military of the countries they belong to, with scientific, not defensive/aggressive purposes. Most planes that operate in Antarctica year-round are military. IIRC, there is an Australian A319 that operates there, but I am not sure how successful a 747 or 757 landing or take off could be in one of Antarctica's ice runways, even in their brief summer.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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Dalavia
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:09 pm

dr1980 wrote:
Thanks, it does show up on flightaware

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA2904


Oh, very nice. Thank you for the link.

Understandably there's no detail as the flight approaches Antarctica or is over Antarctica. The seat-back video screens showed a very low-resolution map of the flight path, and the trip organisers have promised to send all passengers a detailed flight routing in due course; this was promised within a week to 10 days, but I'm still waiting.

Our flight arrived at Antarctica over Cape Adare and then flew down the west coastline of the Ross Sea over a series of huge glaciers to Mount Erebus, and then returned on what was essentially the same routing. The flight mainly stayed with the coastline because there isn't much to see in terms of features over the main part of the continent, which is covered by snow that obscures all but the highest peaks.
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:59 am

smartplane wrote:
Some may consider them the fun police, but there are rules and extra costs costs for unusual / uncommon flights, which parallel those in the shipping industry, proactively supported by the insurance and finance industries, which do not want to be publicly (at least), aligned with polluters and irresponsible operators.

A recent International Shipping Organisation meeting re-visited the current Polar Code, and will increase minimum operator capital and insurance cover requirements.

The major maritime insurers meanwhile will increase Antarctica cover and premiums, as policies are renewed. Most now have an Antarctica and sensitive areas policy extension, at considerable cost to owners, and financiers and lessors are increasingly adding exclusion zones in their T&C's.

What's happening at sea, is mirrored by aviation. Qantas must meet UN minimum capital guidelines set for Antarctica sightseeing trips, which can be mitigated by insurance, effectively an assurance the airline (and insurers) pockets are deep enough to remove all trace of an accident.

An airline's standard hull and liability insurance would not cover these sightseeing trips, as is now the case for air shows (though there are some exemptions if the show is at an approved commercial airport, and nature of the display).

Financiers and insurers are becoming much more proactive. That's why airlines operating into 'hostile' countries and airports tend to fly older, owned aircraft to those destinations, with cover restricted just to specific air frames, so rare to see substitutions.

Presumably travel insurance for cruises and commercial flights to Antarctica reflect the special premiums applied to the ships and aircraft carrying them.


It’s also still possible to find pieces of a certain DC-10 even today on the slopes of Mount Erebus.

Maybe flight 901 should’ve been the last Antarctic sightseeing flight completely.
752 753 A332
 
smartplane
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: QF to end scenic flights to Antarctica?

Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:03 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Some may consider them the fun police, but there are rules and extra costs costs for unusual / uncommon flights, which parallel those in the shipping industry, proactively supported by the insurance and finance industries, which do not want to be publicly (at least), aligned with polluters and irresponsible operators.

A recent International Shipping Organisation meeting re-visited the current Polar Code, and will increase minimum operator capital and insurance cover requirements.

The major maritime insurers meanwhile will increase Antarctica cover and premiums, as policies are renewed. Most now have an Antarctica and sensitive areas policy extension, at considerable cost to owners, and financiers and lessors are increasingly adding exclusion zones in their T&C's.

What's happening at sea, is mirrored by aviation. Qantas must meet UN minimum capital guidelines set for Antarctica sightseeing trips, which can be mitigated by insurance, effectively an assurance the airline (and insurers) pockets are deep enough to remove all trace of an accident.

An airline's standard hull and liability insurance would not cover these sightseeing trips, as is now the case for air shows (though there are some exemptions if the show is at an approved commercial airport, and nature of the display).

Financiers and insurers are becoming much more proactive. That's why airlines operating into 'hostile' countries and airports tend to fly older, owned aircraft to those destinations, with cover restricted just to specific air frames, so rare to see substitutions.

Presumably travel insurance for cruises and commercial flights to Antarctica reflect the special premiums applied to the ships and aircraft carrying them.


It’s also still possible to find pieces of a certain DC-10 even today on the slopes of Mount Erebus.

Maybe flight 901 should’ve been the last Antarctic sightseeing flight completely.

If there was another civil aviation accident today or in the future, the operator and / or insurers are responsible for funding the removal of all debris, including fluids.

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