Possibility of third airline on PHX-LHR route?

PMUA787 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:41 am

I was looking recently at fares for the PHX-LHR route and I was shocked at how much a one way fare in basic Y was over $3,000 one way, over a month in advance. Any possibility of another airline like Norwegian making a go at a PHX-LGW flight to give a little competition?

KLMatSJC · Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:05 am

That price will likely drop at least by half if you do a round-trip. One-way flights to Europe are always very expensive.

cedarjet · Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:31 am

KLMatSJC wrote:
That price will likely drop at least by half if you do a round-trip. One-way flights to Europe are always very expensive.

Correct — all one ways are confiscatory

MIflyer12 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:39 am

cedarjet wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:
That price will likely drop at least by half if you do a round-trip. One-way flights to Europe are always very expensive.

Correct — all one ways are confiscatory

Not, all, but the practice of requiring a r/t to get the cheaper fare buckets is pretty common particularly among legacy carriers.

Arion640 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:41 am

AA/BA are basically one airline to North America with the JV.

AntonioMartin · Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:07 pm

I don't know how likely this would be but I can only think of Virgin Atlantic or Norwegian doing the route, if , and this is a big if, a third airline was to enter the route. Doubt any other airline (Pakistan, Kuwait, Emirates, Air India etc) would do a London-Phoenix run like they do London-New York, because...New York is New York and we are...well, we are Phoenix, which is to say we are not Tucson, but we are not New York, either.

lhrnue · Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:15 pm

So pensive that I fly LHR-LAX and drive to Phoenix.

Dosday · Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:18 pm

It's expensive because you searched for a Oneway ticket. Since I don't know what date you searched for I can't compare to what I've found.

I tried Sky Scanner for 13 Jan 2020, Oneway, Non-stop (Sky Scanner calls it Direct,) and found these:
Finnair - $1,151
Iberia - $1,172
Both operated by British Airways.

timh4000 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:35 pm

how cheaper is it to fly into LAX?

andymartin · Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:45 pm

Plenty of LHR to SFO or LAX via Phoenix for £300, just stay in Phoenix and don't board the 2nd leg!

FlyingHollander · Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:45 pm

The last 2 years my family has been able to fly outside the Christmas and summer peak and we've been paying only €300-€550 for AMS-LHR-PHX roundtrip. Would they really be offering such prices if there is so much demand?

BA744PHX · Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:50 pm

I believe we will see AA or BA with an additional frequency before another airline.

When BA operated an additional 3X weekly the flight departed at 5:00PM. The current schedule has AA at 3:15PM and BA 7:45PM, I assume with AA's flight schedule there are intentions of increasing service due to the gap in departure times.

I can see AA downgrading from the 772 to 2 daily 787 or same with BA from 773 to 2 daily 787

chepos · Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:20 pm

Doubtful, AA/BA can make it work because they have connections on both ends. With 2 daily flights can’t really see room for a 3rd on VS or Norwegian.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DTWLAX · Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:52 pm

andymartin wrote:
Plenty of LHR to SFO or LAX via Phoenix for £300, just stay in Phoenix and don't board the 2nd leg!

He is looking for PHX-LHR and not LHR-PHX, so your theory does not work.

joeljack · Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:55 pm

A friend of mine lives in PHX and her boyfriend lives in London. She flies to London 1 time per month and she said she can rarely take the nonstop because it is terribly expensive but instead connects and saves $250-$500 routinely vs the nonstop. She has a hatred towards American for charging so much and has taken all her work travel away from American just out of spite.

I haven’t looked up anything myself, just going by what she says.

TC957 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:04 pm

Check out WS PHX-YYC-LGW as an option.

PhilMcCrackin · Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:09 pm

The BA direct PHX-LHR seems to always command a premium. I drove to DEN from PHX last February to fly DEN-LHR for $450 RT.

Ishrion · Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:38 pm

Norwegian should launch 3x weekly LHR-PHX with their new slots :rotfl:

asr0dzjq · Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:27 pm

Never new there was that much demand for London/Phoenix

bhxalex · Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:35 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
I can see AA downgrading from the 772 to 2 daily 787 or same with BA from 773 to 2 daily 787

Which routes are being cut at LHR to allow for this then? Slim to no chance a slot would be wasted creating this unnecessary 3rd daily flight on smaller equipment.

lhrsfosyd91 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:50 pm

No chance for a 3rd daily from PHX. The market isn't time sensitive and any requirement for a capacity upgrade will come as an upgauge to the existing BA service.

alasizon · Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:53 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
No chance for a 3rd daily from PHX. The market isn't time sensitive and any requirement for a capacity upgrade will come as an upgauge to the existing BA service.

This summer BA will already be a 77W so not much of an option for an upgauge there.

lhrsfosyd91 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:15 pm

alasizon wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
No chance for a 3rd daily from PHX. The market isn't time sensitive and any requirement for a capacity upgrade will come as an upgauge to the existing BA service.

This summer BA will already be a 77W so not much of an option for an upgauge there.

Mid-J would be an upgauge and they are keeping those for few years before B779s arrive.

MAH4546 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:09 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
I believe we will see AA or BA with an additional frequency before another airline.

When BA operated an additional 3X weekly the flight departed at 5:00PM. The current schedule has AA at 3:15PM and BA 7:45PM, I assume with AA's flight schedule there are intentions of increasing service due to the gap in departure times.

I can see AA downgrading from the 772 to 2 daily 787 or same with BA from 773 to 2 daily 787

Not happening. Dozens of places to use a valuable LHR slot over a third PHX flight.

SeanM1997 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:20 pm

Why would Phoenix get a third airline before other US destinations on the London route.

Monopoly JV routes:
AA/BA - Charleston, Charlotte, Dallas, Nashville, New Orleans, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Phoenix, Raleigh, San Diego, San Jose
DL/VS - Detroit, Minneapolis, Portland, Salt Lake City
UA - none

Total 15 routes have no competition between London and USA. I think there are a few routes before Phoenix which will get an additional airline

BA777FO · Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:53 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
No chance for a 3rd daily from PHX. The market isn't time sensitive and any requirement for a capacity upgrade will come as an upgauge to the existing BA service.

This summer BA will already be a 77W so not much of an option for an upgauge there.

Mid-J would be an upgauge and they are keeping those for few years before B779s arrive.

Although a reduction in premium seats. Both the mid-J 747 and 77W have 14F seats (for now) but the 77W has 4 extra J seats and 8 extra W seats.

Compared to summer 2018 overall capacity in the LHR-PHX market has been increased significantly with AA's daily 772 and BA's daily 77W versus a 10x weekly 747. As BA's 77Ws will be refitted into a hi-J configuration throughout 2020 and 2021 I'd expect further equipment changes on this route in the next year or two.

jfk777 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:15 pm

Can't see Virgin or Norwegian flying to London from Phoenix. Europe has been a challenge from Arizona, Lufthansa used to have a flight to FRA.

AEROFAN · Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:29 pm

joeljack wrote:
A friend of mine lives in PHX and her boyfriend lives in London. She flies to London 1 time per month and she said she can rarely take the nonstop because it is terribly expensive but instead connects and saves $250-$500 routinely vs the nonstop. She has a hatred towards American for charging so much and has taken all her work travel away from American just out of spite.

I haven’t looked up anything myself, just going by what she says.

Good for her. It's regrettable that more people don't follow your friend and me

BA744PHX · Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:42 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
joeljack wrote:
A friend of mine lives in PHX and her boyfriend lives in London. She flies to London 1 time per month and she said she can rarely take the nonstop because it is terribly expensive but instead connects and saves $250-$500 routinely vs the nonstop. She has a hatred towards American for charging so much and has taken all her work travel away from American just out of spite.

I haven’t looked up anything myself, just going by what she says.

Good for her. It's regrettable that more people don't follow your friend and me

Sadly travelers like yourself are whats hurting additional nonstop flights into PHX, all your doing is helping other airlines and cities justify their service (with cheap fares)

chepos · Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:54 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
joeljack wrote:
A friend of mine lives in PHX and her boyfriend lives in London. She flies to London 1 time per month and she said she can rarely take the nonstop because it is terribly expensive but instead connects and saves $250-$500 routinely vs the nonstop. She has a hatred towards American for charging so much and has taken all her work travel away from American just out of spite.

I haven’t looked up anything myself, just going by what she says.

Good for her. It's regrettable that more people don't follow your friend and me

Sadly travelers like yourself are whats hurting additional nonstop flights into PHX, all your doing is helping other airlines and cities justify their service (with cheap fares)

As a valley resident I am glad there are not more people like him/her.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jimbo737 · Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:04 pm

Westjet’s one way fare from PHX to LGW over YYC tomorrow is under $900. That 787 flight from YYC to LGW always has at least 20 connections from PHX. A nice connection time too. Not too long, but not too short either.

It covers about 325 miles more than the non stop.

If you’re in the SE valley and travel on Sunday’s, you can fly AZA- LGW over YYC as well on WestJet.

incitatus · Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:28 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
No chance for a 3rd daily from PHX. The market isn't time sensitive and any requirement for a capacity upgrade will come as an upgauge to the existing BA service.

There is another advantage to more frequency in a market like this. Another flight would be hooked to different hub waves at both ends creating connections that do not exist today.

PhilMcCrackin · Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:05 am

jfk777 wrote:
Can't see Virgin or Norwegian flying to London from Phoenix. Europe has been a challenge from Arizona, Lufthansa used to have a flight to FRA.

Lol, what?

LH stopped flying to PHX back in 2003, largely as an effect of 9/11. As of this current point in time, there will be three airlines flying four flights to Europe next summer. AA/BA JV with two to LHR, Eurowings to FRA, which is owned by Lufthansa, and Condor to FRA.

hpff · Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:10 am

What's the PDEW between Phoenix and London? Though I think Condor and Eurowings fly to Frankfurt, I could see AA/BA wanting to funnel Phoenix connecting passengers through the LHR hub since it's the only year round transoceanic flight which operates out of Phoenix. I would imagine there's quite a bit of onward travel (on both ends of the flight) that no other carrier would be in a position to pick up, allowing both airlines to charge a premium on the non-stop.

BA744PHX · Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:18 am

jfk777 wrote:
Can't see Virgin or Norwegian flying to London from Phoenix. Europe has been a challenge from Arizona, Lufthansa used to have a flight to FRA.

Next year there will be 22 weekly flights in the summer
AA-LHR daily
BA-LHR daily
DE-FRA 3 weekly, seasonal
EW-FRA 5 weekly, seasonal

lhrsfosyd91 · Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:32 am

incitatus wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
No chance for a 3rd daily from PHX. The market isn't time sensitive and any requirement for a capacity upgrade will come as an upgauge to the existing BA service.

There is another advantage to more frequency in a market like this. Another flight would be hooked to different hub waves at both ends creating connections that do not exist today.

Can you elaborate on which connections would those be?

alasizon · Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:52 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
incitatus wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
No chance for a 3rd daily from PHX. The market isn't time sensitive and any requirement for a capacity upgrade will come as an upgauge to the existing BA service.

There is another advantage to more frequency in a market like this. Another flight would be hooked to different hub waves at both ends creating connections that do not exist today.

Can you elaborate on which connections would those be?

There are none on the PHX-LHR side that aren't covered by the existing two flights. Every single west and mountain west city can connect to the current two flights. Once COS starts later this month they wouldn't be able to connect in PHX to LHR but why would they go to PHX over DEN or any one of the other hubs east of PHX (ORD, DFW, IAH, etc.).

ROW, ASE, EGE and CUU are the only reasonable LHR-PHX connections that would be missed.

jfk777 · Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:58 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Can't see Virgin or Norwegian flying to London from Phoenix. Europe has been a challenge from Arizona, Lufthansa used to have a flight to FRA.

Next year there will be 22 weekly flights in the summer
AA-LHR daily
BA-LHR daily
DE-FRA 3 weekly, seasonal
EW-FRA 5 weekly, seasonal

Condor and Eurowings are a different market then Lufthansa, they are leisure airline flying in German Tourists to Arizona.

ikramerica · Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:57 pm

joeljack wrote:
A friend of mine lives in PHX and her boyfriend lives in London. She flies to London 1 time per month and she said she can rarely take the nonstop because it is terribly expensive but instead connects and saves $250-$500 routinely vs the nonstop. She has a hatred towards American for charging so much and has taken all her work travel away from American just out of spite.

I haven’t looked up anything myself, just going by what she says.

What is your time worth to you? That’s the question.

There are tons of 1-connection options LHR-PHX. They piggyback on existing heavily plied routes between PHX-XXX and XXX-LHR.

AEROFAN · Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:15 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
joeljack wrote:
A friend of mine lives in PHX and her boyfriend lives in London. She flies to London 1 time per month and she said she can rarely take the nonstop because it is terribly expensive but instead connects and saves $250-$500 routinely vs the nonstop. She has a hatred towards American for charging so much and has taken all her work travel away from American just out of spite.

I haven’t looked up anything myself, just going by what she says.

Good for her. It's regrettable that more people don't follow your friend and me

Sadly travelers like yourself are whats hurting additional nonstop flights into PHX, all your doing is helping other airlines and cities justify their service (with cheap fares)

This is one of the most ridiculous statements that I have read on here for quite a while. So I'm supposed to buy an overpriced product that is not of value in any way shape or form? Are you for real? When last did you do this?

AEROFAN · Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:18 pm

chepos wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

Good for her. It's regrettable that more people don't follow your friend and me

Sadly travelers like yourself are whats hurting additional nonstop flights into PHX, all your doing is helping other airlines and cities justify their service (with cheap fares)

As a valley resident I am glad there are not more people like him/her.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You must work for an airline. Only airline employees seem to feel free to make such statements. A lady is purchasing a product and she should not look for the best deal possible? Are you for real? I won't even ask if you don't do this yourself.

BA744PHX · Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:44 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

Good for her. It's regrettable that more people don't follow your friend and me

Sadly travelers like yourself are whats hurting additional nonstop flights into PHX, all your doing is helping other airlines and cities justify their service (with cheap fares)

This is one of the most ridiculous statements that I have read on here for quite a while. So I'm supposed to buy an overpriced product that is not of value in any way shape or form? Are you for real? When last did you do this?

What's ridiculous is someone having hatred for an airline cause they cant make a monthly commute to see their partner in another country, thats no one's fault but their own...

If you want the luxury of non stop, pay up, if you cant afford thats not the airlines fault.

You are probably the ideal Norwegian, Condor, TUI customer, cheap, bottom of the barrel.

I live in NYC and there are many LCC Intl options, you get what you pay for.

AEROFAN · Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:23 am

BA744PHX wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:

Sadly travelers like yourself are whats hurting additional nonstop flights into PHX, all your doing is helping other airlines and cities justify their service (with cheap fares)

This is one of the most ridiculous statements that I have read on here for quite a while. So I'm supposed to buy an overpriced product that is not of value in any way shape or form? Are you for real? When last did you do this?

What's ridiculous is someone having hatred for an airline cause they cant make a monthly commute to see their partner in another country, thats no one's fault but their own...

If you want the luxury of non stop, pay up, if you cant afford thats not the airlines fault.

You are probably the ideal Norwegian, Condor, TUI customer, cheap, bottom of the barrel.

I live in NYC and there are many LCC Intl options, you get what you pay for.

You need to stop posting because you are making absolutely silly and ridiculous statements. I can't even be bothered now as there is no sense to any of them.

Ryga · Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:15 am

BA744PHX wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:

Sadly travelers like yourself are whats hurting additional nonstop flights into PHX, all your doing is helping other airlines and cities justify their service (with cheap fares)

This is one of the most ridiculous statements that I have read on here for quite a while. So I'm supposed to buy an overpriced product that is not of value in any way shape or form? Are you for real? When last did you do this?

What's ridiculous is someone having hatred for an airline cause they cant make a monthly commute to see their partner in another country, thats no one's fault but their own...

If you want the luxury of non stop, pay up, if you cant afford thats not the airlines fault.

You are probably the ideal Norwegian, Condor, TUI customer, cheap, bottom of the barrel.

I live in NYC and there are many LCC Intl options, you get what you pay for.

Sounds like you’re poorly educated from that comment.

bluecrew · Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:26 am

alasizon wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
incitatus wrote:

There is another advantage to more frequency in a market like this. Another flight would be hooked to different hub waves at both ends creating connections that do not exist today.

Can you elaborate on which connections would those be?

There are none on the PHX-LHR side that aren't covered by the existing two flights. Every single west and mountain west city can connect to the current two flights. Once COS starts later this month they wouldn't be able to connect in PHX to LHR but why would they go to PHX over DEN or any one of the other hubs east of PHX (ORD, DFW, IAH, etc.).

ROW, ASE, EGE and CUU are the only reasonable LHR-PHX connections that would be missed.

A lot of it is the LHR connections on the other side. The timing on PHX-LHR isn't super convenient for certain destinations in Europe, also you often end up with 8-9 hour layovers in LHR on any itineraries from the west especially.
That said, PHX isn't a huge city and even DLH service should be welcomed and accepted as a fantastic and rare thing for a city with no meaningful alliance connections to make it worthwhile. Can't see any more capacity especially to London being added. Maybe AF or KL some day, but if so, OP should start a campaign for French and Dutch retirees to move to Arizona.

LAX772LR · Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:07 pm

Ryga wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

This is one of the most ridiculous statements that I have read on here for quite a while. So I'm supposed to buy an overpriced product that is not of value in any way shape or form? Are you for real? When last did you do this?

What's ridiculous is someone having hatred for an airline cause they cant make a monthly commute to see their partner in another country, thats no one's fault but their own...

If you want the luxury of non stop, pay up, if you cant afford thats not the airlines fault.

You are probably the ideal Norwegian, Condor, TUI customer, cheap, bottom of the barrel.

I live in NYC and there are many LCC Intl options, you get what you pay for.

Sounds like you’re poorly educated from that comment.

If by "poorly educated" you mean "telling the cold hard truth."

Few things in this world are more accurate than "you get what you pay for".... if this person, whomever she may be, doesn't wish to pay the premium for a nonstop; then take a cheaper 1stop.

Nobody loses: the 1stop airline gets the customer they were luring, the cheap traveler gets a less expensive seat, the nonstop carrier retains a seat to offer a the higher-spending customer they're after.

But it is indeed rather silly to profess a "hatred" for a full-service airline for pricing its commodities at what the market-demand will sustain. Um, that's what it's SUPPOSED to do:

PhilMcCrackin · Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:55 pm

bluecrew wrote:
That said, PHX isn't a huge city

It's not NYC, but it's not exactly small either as the 11th biggest MSA in the country and rapidly growing.

and even DLH service should be welcomed and accepted as a fantastic and rare thing

PHX will be up to four transatlantic flights next summer:

AA PHX-LHR
BA PHX-LHR
EW PHX-FRA
Condor PHX-FRA

for a city with no meaningful alliance connections to make it worthwhile.

You're aware that PHX is an AA hub, yes?

dfwjim1 · Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:05 pm

Why would Europeans want to travel to Arizona in the summer?

UpNAWAy · Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:07 pm

Grand Canyon and then on to Las Vegas Euros are everywhere out West, especially the Germans.

PhilMcCrackin · Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:23 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Why would Europeans want to travel to Arizona in the summer?

You realize there are more climates in Arizona than just the desert, right?

Condor has expanded their service in 2020 from what they operated in 2019 and BA upgauges their flight to the 77W/744 in the summer, so the demand is certainly there.

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