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tax1k
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British Airways at BWI

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:07 am

Anyone know why BWI can’t hold any international airlines other than BA (with a heavy subsidy)? You would think that the Maryland DC suburbs plus government related business plus Baltimore could at least hold a route to a hub.
Last edited by SQ22 on Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo fixed
 
Ishrion
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Re: British Airways a BWI

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:08 am

Does Condor no longer fly to BWI?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: British Airways a BWI

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:11 am

Why does Baltimore subsidize the flight? With IAD close by it seems like a waste of money.
 
professorpryor
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Re: British Airways a BWI

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:20 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why does Baltimore subsidize the flight? With IAD close by it seems like a waste of money.


BWI and IAD are only 52 miles apart. And with IAD being a Star Alliance hub, more international carriers wanting to connect to US cities will go there.

BWI is a *focus city* for WN. But that doesn't help out *any* international carrier.
 
rising
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Re: British Airways a BWI

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:59 am

    professorpryor wrote:
    TTailedTiger wrote:
    Why does Baltimore subsidize the flight? With IAD close by it seems like a waste of money.


    BWI and IAD are only 52 miles apart. And with IAD being a Star Alliance hub, more international carriers wanting to connect to US cities will go there.

    BWI is a *focus city* for WN. But that doesn't help out *any* international carrier.


    This to me has always been the one downside of WN being the dominant carrier. No connecting flow.

    The Maryland Aviation Administration loves to bring out the confetti cannons and tout the airport's international service, which is virtually all to leisure destinations, except the token flights to Canada and LHR. But it would be nice if they could lure some more business traffic destinations or even another dominant carrier, like at BOS.

    IAD is just so painful to get to unless it is 3am due to traffic congestion.
    If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.
     
    Dominion301
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:12 am

    Ishrion wrote:
    Does Condor no longer fly to BWI?


    They still do summer seasonally.
     
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    PacoMartin
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:14 am

    tax1k wrote:
    Anyone know why BWI can’t hold any international airlines other than BA (with a heavy subsidy)? You would think that the Maryland DC suburbs plus government related business plus Baltimore could at least hold a route to a hub.


    BWI does have a few more international flights than just London (but not many transoceanic ones)
    British Airways London–Heathrow
    Condor Seasonal: Frankfurt
    Air Canada Express Montréal–Trudeau, Toronto–Pearson
    Southwest Airlines Aruba, Cancún, Liberia (CR), Montego Bay, Nassau, Punta Cana, San José de Costa Rica, San Juan
    Seasonal: Grand Cayman, Providenciales (begins March 7, 2020)
    Spirit Airlines Cancún, Montego Bay, San Juan

    BWI is 15% bigger than Dulles (45 air miles away) and 13% smaller than Philadelphia (90 miles away). Dulles and Philadelphia both have extensive Transatlantic routes and Dulles has a wide selection of routes to Middle East, Asia and Africa
    Emirates Dubai–International
    Etihad Airways Abu Dhabi
    Qatar Airways Doha
    Saudia Jeddah, Riyadh Hajj: Medina
    Air China Beijing–Capital
    All Nippon Airways Tokyo
    Korean Air Seoul–Incheon
    Cathay Pacific Hong Kong
    Ethiopian Airlines Addis Ababa
    Royal Air Maroc Casablanca
    Air India Delhi
    South African Airways Accra, Johannesburg–O. R. Tambo
    Turkish Airlines Istanbul
    United Airlines ....

    The Star Alliance is obviously a big factor, but many of those airlines are not in the Star alliance.
     
    UALFAson
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:12 am

    Another factor is that most of the people with money and/or jobs that engage in international travel live in Northern Virginia and D.C. They're not going to schlep all the way out to BWI for a limited selection of international flights when they have so many more nonstops from which to choose out of IAD or, if they want their frequent flyer miles, will depart DCA and connect through PHL, JFK, or EWR to Europe or ORD, DTW, or DFW to Asia. With all due respect, Baltimore isn't exactly an economic powerhouse, nor are the MD suburbs on the northeast side of D.C. between D.C. proper and BWI.

    Dulles also has long been "designated" as the region's international gateway and has led in international flights for decades. At this point, it's too late for BWI to suddenly try to compete outside of WN service to the Caribbean.
    "We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
     
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    BWIAirport
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:28 am

    Possibly worth noting that, in all likelihood, we'd still see year-round service from WOW if they didn't fold which provided cheap onward connections from a vast number of cities in Europe and even Asia.

    There are a bunch of factors that contribute to BWI's lack of long-haul presence:

    As others have mentioned, WN does not currently partner with any other airlines like B6 or any alliance carrier does. There have been rumblings of such an agreement being reached eventually but I wouldn't expect anything anytime soon. The Star Alliance factor means IAD is a slam dunk for SN, AI, LH, SK, LX, NH, etc. I personally consider PHL to be a Baltimore-area airport since it is often closer by car than IAD. I've used PHL a couple times for long-haul flights. Their OneWorld ties make it much more attractive for BA, QR, and EI. If airlines like IB, JL, AY, etc were looking to add more North American dots, PHL would be a much more attractive option than BWI. I do believe DL could give BWI-AMS or BWI-CDG a shot on 757s or 767s like they've done with TPA, IND, PIT, PHL, although a couple of those experiments have failed. I've always said the day WN partners with a long-haul airline is the day long haul presence at BWI triples.

    But there are other factors in addition to partnership. There is seemingly no reason a Star Alliance hub would lead airlines like AF, KL, VS, etc towards IAD. A huge factor is marketability as a DC airport and subsequent ease of connectivity to the nation's capital. Getting from BWI to downtown DC is absolutely miserable. In addition, for whatever reason I believe airlines favor IAD over BWI in part due to the airport's reputation as the international hub of Washington. So even if it is cheaper to operate out of BWI, airlines can boast that they fly to the premier DC international airport.

    I've been reading articles since like 2012 that claimed BWI was "on the brink" of landing new long-haul service. Specific destinations such as PEK or ICN have been mentioned but I've learned not to get too excited about those rumors. I find BWI significantly easier to use than IAD and I hope one day more airlines give it a shot. From my understanding DE has been quite successful and it was one of the few money-makers for WW.
    SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL, FFT | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A20N A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
     
    lawair
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:20 am

    The BA flight at BWI has a revenue guarantee, but my impression is that the state hasn't needed to pay for the past few years. The flight has also grown considerably since the time that larger payments were made.

    For the 12 month period through September, the total number of passengers on the flight was 129,484 (up 21% from the same period in 2011). Total cargo was 9,385,947 lbs (up 178% from the same period in 2012).

    That cargo growth is enormous and partly the result of switching to the 787 with larger cargo space in 2015. And even with the traffic growth, Air Canada has grown faster than BA at BWI and now carries more passengers than any other foreign carrier at BWI. Also as a comparison, the Condor flight carried 43% more passengers this year than last year, starting from a smaller base. The flight operates 4x per week during the summer and carries between 8000 and 11000 passengers each month.
     
    blockski
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:30 pm

    TTailedTiger wrote:
    Why does Baltimore subsidize the flight? With IAD close by it seems like a waste of money.


    The State of Maryland subsidizes the flight. The reason they do so is a) because they can - this subsidy is grandfathered in and wouldn't be allowed (in its current form) under today's FAA rules on incentives, and b) because of the particular politics of the state of Maryland.

    The folks that run BWI aren't stupid - they know that the 'W' part of the market is important. However, the airport is owned by the State of Maryland, and the State has a vested interest in the economic vitality of their biggest city, Baltimore. They want to have at least one transatlantic flight available for Baltimore-based businesses to use without having to schlep all the way from Downtown Baltimore to Dulles. The Baltimore business community lobbies the state to keep the subsidy in place, even as the political and economic center of gravity in Maryland slowly shifts more and more to the DC suburbs.

    The other challenges for BWI (noted in this thread) is that Southwest isn't a good partner in the same way JetBlue could be at JFK or BOS, so there's not a lot of potential feed or codesharing opportunities at BWI. Likewise, because of IAD's dominant position in the region - not just for Star Alliance flights, but for all intercontinental flights, BWI has to offer a sweet deal to an airline like BA to keep their flight to BWI - they could easily find a more lucrative route to use that plane (and that slot), or build up their already substantial service out of IAD (2x daily, one often on an A380) or PHL (also 2x daily, plus an AA JV flight). Absent the subsidy, it seems unlikely that BA would keep the flight because of proximity to greater demand nearby at both IAD and PHL.

    If not BA, it's hard to see what full service airline would offer a TATL flight out of BWI; any Star Alliance carriers would be unlikely because of the UA hub at IAD; BA is already an odd fit because of the proximity to their JV hub in PHL as well as the strong demand at IAD; there aren't a lot of other players out there.
     
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    ricport
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:28 pm

    As others have mentioned, there simply isn't the mass needed to sustain significant (i.e., non-leisure) international service. The list of carriers who have tried and failed is lengthy. So, we, the taxpayers of MD will continue to subsidize the BA service to satiate the inflated egos of the Baltimore business community and MD politicos. It's the aviation equivalent of tying a liver around your kid's neck to get the cats to play with him.

    Considering that Baltimore is utterly crime-ridden, you would think that $$ could be better spent putting more cops on the streets there, but hey, at least if you manage to survive to make it to BWI, you can jet off to LHR nonstop!

    Another point no one has mentioned yet: Yes, trying to schlep out to IAD is a pain for MD flyers (unless you live in Bethesda, Potomac, etc.). But, it's no more of a pain than trying to inch up the perpetual parking lot that is the B-W Parkway is for DC & NoVa flyers. Hogan tried to get control of it from the Park Service after decades of neglect, but - miraculously! - just as we all thought there may be hope, the Park Service magically found the $$ to repair it, and now, there seems to be no movement on this. And if anyone thinks the Park Service is actually going to spend one cent to widen it and make it actually usable, I've got some beachfront property in Kansas I know you'll absolutely love. The Park Service has about as much business managing highways as the EPA would running prisons.

    Then, once you (finally!) make it to BWI, you are greeted by the lovely MTA Transit Police, who are too busy running speedtraps to keep the traffic flowing around the terminal. There's also: the poor shopping/dining choices, rental car center that gives new meaning to the word "remote," lousy security screening checkpoints, and generally lazy and surly staff (regardless of carrier).

    BWI is the closest option for me, but I only fly out of there when I absolutely have to.
     
    lat41
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:04 pm

    ricport wrote:
    As others have mentioned, there simply isn't the mass needed to sustain significant (i.e., non-leisure) international service. The list of carriers who have tried and failed is lengthy. So, we, the taxpayers of MD will continue to subsidize the BA service to satiate the inflated egos of the Baltimore business community and MD politicos. It's the aviation equivalent of tying a liver around your kid's neck to get the cats to play with him.

    Considering that Baltimore is utterly crime-ridden, you would think that $$ could be better spent putting more cops on the streets there, but hey, at least if you manage to survive to make it to BWI, you can jet off to LHR nonstop!

    Another point no one has mentioned yet: Yes, trying to schlep out to IAD is a pain for MD flyers (unless you live in Bethesda, Potomac, etc.). But, it's no more of a pain than trying to inch up the perpetual parking lot that is the B-W Parkway is for DC & NoVa flyers. Hogan tried to get control of it from the Park Service after decades of neglect, but - miraculously! - just as we all thought there may be hope, the Park Service magically found the $$ to repair it, and now, there seems to be no movement on this. And if anyone thinks the Park Service is actually going to spend one cent to widen it and make it actually usable, I've got some beachfront property in Kansas I know you'll absolutely love. The Park Service has about as much business managing highways as the EPA would running prisons.

    Then, once you (finally!) make it to BWI, you are greeted by the lovely MTA Transit Police, who are too busy running speedtraps to keep the traffic flowing around the terminal. There's also: the poor shopping/dining choices, rental car center that gives new meaning to the word "remote," lousy security screening checkpoints, and generally lazy and surly staff (regardless of carrier).

    BWI is the closest option for me, but I only fly out of there when I absolutely have to.

    Sounds like you have many a non-aviation axe to grind. Refer to post #10. Sounds like BA has not had to tap into the subsidy of late..
     
    dcaproducer
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:07 pm

    PacoMartin wrote:
    tax1k wrote:
    Anyone know why BWI can’t hold any international airlines other than BA (with a heavy subsidy)? You would think that the Maryland DC suburbs plus government related business plus Baltimore could at least hold a route to a hub.


    BWI does have a few more international flights than just London (but not many transoceanic ones)
    British Airways London–Heathrow
    Condor Seasonal: Frankfurt
    Air Canada Express Montréal–Trudeau, Toronto–Pearson
    Southwest Airlines Aruba, Cancún, Liberia (CR), Montego Bay, Nassau, Punta Cana, San José de Costa Rica, San Juan
    Seasonal: Grand Cayman, Providenciales (begins March 7, 2020)
    Spirit Airlines Cancún, Montego Bay, San Juan

    BWI is 15% bigger than Dulles (45 air miles away) and 13% smaller than Philadelphia (90 miles away). Dulles and Philadelphia both have extensive Transatlantic routes and Dulles has a wide selection of routes to Middle East, Asia and Africa
    Emirates Dubai–International
    Etihad Airways Abu Dhabi
    Qatar Airways Doha
    Saudia Jeddah, Riyadh Hajj: Medina
    Air China Beijing–Capital
    All Nippon Airways Tokyo
    Korean Air Seoul–Incheon
    Cathay Pacific Hong Kong
    Ethiopian Airlines Addis Ababa
    Royal Air Maroc Casablanca
    Air India Delhi
    South African Airways Accra, Johannesburg–O. R. Tambo
    Turkish Airlines Istanbul
    United Airlines ....

    The Star Alliance is obviously a big factor, but many of those airlines are not in the Star alliance.


    Not to nit-pick, but San Juan is not international.
     
    IADCA
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:24 pm

    tax1k wrote:
    Anyone know why BWI can’t hold any international airlines other than BA (with a heavy subsidy)? You would think that the Maryland DC suburbs plus government related business plus Baltimore could at least hold a route to a hub.


    Part of the problem vis a vis the DC suburbs is that the richest suburbs are near IAD and the less-wealthy ones are closer to BWI. For the wealthier Maryland suburbs along 270, it's a rough journey to either one, but Dulles doesn't take much longer, if any, and the already-abundant service there creates a feedback loop that disadvantages BWI.
     
    smokeybandit
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:31 pm

    ricport wrote:
    As others have mentioned, there simply isn't the mass needed to sustain significant (i.e., non-leisure) international service. The list of carriers who have tried and failed is lengthy. So, we, the taxpayers of MD will continue to subsidize the BA service to satiate the inflated egos of the Baltimore business community and MD politicos. It's the aviation equivalent of tying a liver around your kid's neck to get the cats to play with him.

    Considering that Baltimore is utterly crime-ridden, you would think that $$ could be better spent putting more cops on the streets there, but hey, at least if you manage to survive to make it to BWI, you can jet off to LHR nonstop!

    Another point no one has mentioned yet: Yes, trying to schlep out to IAD is a pain for MD flyers (unless you live in Bethesda, Potomac, etc.). But, it's no more of a pain than trying to inch up the perpetual parking lot that is the B-W Parkway is for DC & NoVa flyers. Hogan tried to get control of it from the Park Service after decades of neglect, but - miraculously! - just as we all thought there may be hope, the Park Service magically found the $$ to repair it, and now, there seems to be no movement on this. And if anyone thinks the Park Service is actually going to spend one cent to widen it and make it actually usable, I've got some beachfront property in Kansas I know you'll absolutely love. The Park Service has about as much business managing highways as the EPA would running prisons.

    Then, once you (finally!) make it to BWI, you are greeted by the lovely MTA Transit Police, who are too busy running speedtraps to keep the traffic flowing around the terminal. There's also: the poor shopping/dining choices, rental car center that gives new meaning to the word "remote," lousy security screening checkpoints, and generally lazy and surly staff (regardless of carrier).

    BWI is the closest option for me, but I only fly out of there when I absolutely have to.


    BWI isn't in Baltimore, so I'm not sure how BWI funding relates to Baltimore funding. The rental car center is 5-10 minutes from the terminal, depending on if you get lights green. Hardly a rarity among airports to have an "off campus" rental car center. And you don't need to take 295 to get to the airport from DC. And when I lived in the area, I drove past the airport every day. Sure, the police often had speed traps, but it's a 60 mph zone right there that frequently sees 70mph traffic zoom right by without a blink from the cops. Not like they're looking for people doing 45 in a 35. Clearly you have some odd hatred of the airport or your family free has "Dulles" in it.
     
    blockski
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:53 pm

    lat41 wrote:
    Sounds like you have many a non-aviation axe to grind. Refer to post #10. Sounds like BA has not had to tap into the subsidy of late..


    the use of the subsidy fund isn't transparent. The deal structure also changed when it was last renewed, so now it's an all-or-nothing thing.

    https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/n ... ar-to.html

    The deal, a memorandum of understanding replacing an expiring agreement between Maryland and the British airline, would have the state making payments if British Airways does not meet certain return on sales requirements. Maryland would have to pay $5.94 million in 2016 and $5.84 million in both 2017 and 2018. The payments would be due in full for each year British Airways' daily BWI service does not meet or exceed its average return of sales at 19 other nonstop U.S. markets.

    The new agreement differs in several ways from the old one. For starters, it calls for all-or-nothing payments — the state either owes the full amount for a year or none of it. Previously, Maryland made prorated payments based on how well or how poorly the Heathrow flight performed.


    I haven't seen a newer version of this kind of article to say how BA performed on this contract, but the same article did have historical data:

    Maryland had to pay British Airways under its old contract for most of the past nine years. It paid $3.3 million in 2007, $2.7 million in 2008, $5.5 million per year from 2009 to 2012, $5.4 million in 2013 and $2.7 million in 2014. It did not have to make a payment in 2015, Smith said.
     
    MIflyer12
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:00 pm

    IADCA wrote:
    tax1k wrote:
    Anyone know why BWI can’t hold any international airlines other than BA (with a heavy subsidy)? You would think that the Maryland DC suburbs plus government related business plus Baltimore could at least hold a route to a hub.


    Part of the problem vis a vis the DC suburbs is that the richest suburbs are near IAD and the less-wealthy ones are closer to BWI. For the wealthier Maryland suburbs along 270, it's a rough journey to either one, but Dulles doesn't take much longer, if any, and the already-abundant service there creates a feedback loop that disadvantages BWI.


    You and UALFAson really ought to look at the demographics and educational levels of MD's 3rd District where BWI is located. If that's not sufficiently high income and high educational attainment, many of the TATL airports in the U.S. today would do without - certainly MIA, MCO, PHL, DTW, MSP...
     
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    PacoMartin
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:07 pm

    dcaproducer wrote:
    Not to nit-pick, but San Juan is not international.


    I showed up at Guam once without a passport and pointed out to security that Guam was not an international destination. They told me to shut up and bring a passport next time.

    I have a tendency to include territories with international destinations since then.
     
    ItnStln
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:13 pm

    Ishrion wrote:
    Does Condor no longer fly to BWI?

    They do but it's seasonal.
     
    ItnStln
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:24 pm

    ricport wrote:
    Then, once you (finally!) make it to BWI, you are greeted by the lovely MTA Transit Police, who are too busy running speedtraps to keep the traffic flowing around the terminal

    It’s the same thing at IAD.
     
    IADCA
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:02 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    IADCA wrote:
    tax1k wrote:
    Anyone know why BWI can’t hold any international airlines other than BA (with a heavy subsidy)? You would think that the Maryland DC suburbs plus government related business plus Baltimore could at least hold a route to a hub.


    Part of the problem vis a vis the DC suburbs is that the richest suburbs are near IAD and the less-wealthy ones are closer to BWI. For the wealthier Maryland suburbs along 270, it's a rough journey to either one, but Dulles doesn't take much longer, if any, and the already-abundant service there creates a feedback loop that disadvantages BWI.


    You and UALFAson really ought to look at the demographics and educational levels of MD's 3rd District where BWI is located. If that's not sufficiently high income and high educational attainment, many of the TATL airports in the U.S. today would do without - certainly MIA, MCO, PHL, DTW, MSP...


    And you should learn to stop lecturing others after that abomination you had on the other thread where you didn't read the thread title and put your foot in your mouth as a result. Here's a link for those that missed it: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1436445 (see posts #5 and #13 if you need a reminder!).

    I'm not trying to be needlessly rude, but you seem to have a blinding desire to score points that leads you to make overly aggressive statements without consideration of whether your tone (or even argument) is justified or supportable. Either that or you simply don't accurately comprehend what others write. I was writing about why some of the Maryland DC suburbs don't direct their traffic to BWI. That is, part of the reason BWI lacks large-scale TATL service is because some of the suburbs in MD leak traffic to IAD. It happens that those suburbs are the richest ones in Maryland. It's just a fact.

    Using your metric of Congressional districts - which is a silly one, especially given the incredibly gerrymandered shape of the 3rd in particular - the one that includes the DC suburbs I was talking about has a six-figure median income. It's one of the ten highest-earning in the country (let's leave aside the income/wealth issue for right now; they're highly correlated, anyway). Those are - as I said - "the richest" (emphasis on the absolute - richest) of the Maryland suburbs of DC. The areas in Virginia near IAD are also even more well-off - they are three of the ten highest-income districts in the country, all higher-earning than any district in Maryland. The Maryland 3rd is well-off too, as is the poorer (in DC terms, certainly not absolute terms) 4th, but not to the same degree. The ones in PG County are in fact the least well-off suburbs of DC, at least of anything that's closer to DC than IAD and BWI are.

    Now, to the bit about Congressional districts being a silly choice. The 3rd Congressional district is a gerrymandered mess that has no geographic meaning. Yes, there are some wealthy areas in it, like Elkridge. But that is suburban Baltimore, not DC. Heck, part of the district is IN Baltimore. I wasn't talking about Baltimore. And it's again just factual that the ring of suburbs around DC is wealthiest in Virginia and least-wealthy in PG County as you head out from DC. In nationwide terms, those areas are still pretty well-off. Compared to the rest of the suburbs around DC, they're not. They're still facing DC-area costs of living, too.

    It appears your response is to cite a different area than the one I was talking about and say "but that place has a lot of money compared to five cities that have a lot of TATL service, despite Baltimore having some high-income congressional districts." Well, yeah. OK. Yes, there are some fairly well-off places in the northern suburbs of DC that are convenient to BWI. But Baltimore alone isn't a very big place, even with its suburbs and with that portion of DC suburbia included. Those other areas you cite, with the exception of MCO (which has huge inbound tourist demand) have much bigger populations than Baltimore does and most importantly don't have another larger, wealthier city with two major airports ~50 miles away.
     
    AEROFAN
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:33 pm

    BWIAirport wrote:
    Getting from BWI to downtown DC is absolutely miserable.

    Have you ever made this trip? Free shuttle bus to the Amtrak/Marc station and from there a train ride to Union Station in DC that lasts about 30mins. Which part of this is miserable? It is certainly quicker and less of a hassle traveling that traveling from Dulles to DC.
    “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
     
    IADCA
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:50 pm

    AEROFAN wrote:
    BWIAirport wrote:
    Getting from BWI to downtown DC is absolutely miserable.

    Have you ever made this trip? Free shuttle bus to the Amtrak/Marc station and from there a train ride to Union Station in DC that lasts about 30mins. Which part of this is miserable? It is certainly quicker and less of a hassle traveling that traveling from Dulles to DC.


    It's probably still better than from IAD, but it does depend on what he means by "downtown DC." If where you're going isn't walkable from Union - and that's hardly the area most people think about as really being downtown DC - suddenly you're talking about at least one Metro connection, and more if your destination isn't on the Red Line. So what looks like a quick shuttle bus to a single-seat train ride is suddenly bus to a train to a train to another train, which can be a pain if you have bags. And that's without building in waiting times for trains, which can be brutal (sometimes 20 minutes on Metro) off-peak and on weekends.
     
    blockski
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:24 pm

    AEROFAN wrote:
    BWIAirport wrote:
    Getting from BWI to downtown DC is absolutely miserable.

    Have you ever made this trip? Free shuttle bus to the Amtrak/Marc station and from there a train ride to Union Station in DC that lasts about 30mins. Which part of this is miserable? It is certainly quicker and less of a hassle traveling that traveling from Dulles to DC.


    "Downtown DC" is a big place, and it depends on your mode.

    Driving from, say, the White House to Dulles is waaaay faster than driving from the White House to BWI. This is thanks to the toll lanes on I-66 and the Dulles Access Highway; meanwhile just getting into Maryland from Downtown involves some very congested surface streets.

    Checking right now; drive time from the White House to Dulles: 38 minutes. White House to BWI: 69 minutes.
    From the Capitol to Dulles: 41 minutes. Capitol to BWI: 56 minutes

    Using transit, even without the Silver Line being open to IAD, the Silver Line express offers a frequent connection - Silver Line trains run every 8-12 minutes. Transit to BWI involves catching one of the handful of MARC Penn Line trains a day - certainly do-able, but not nearly as frequent as Metro - plus the shuttle bus connection at the airport, plus getting to Union Station.

    Metro Center to Dulles via transit: 61m via Metro and the 5A bus (every 30-45 min); 63m min via Metro and the Silver Line Express (every 15 min)
    Metro Center to BWI via transit: 90 minutes, Metro to MARC to the Shuttle bus - and trains come every 30 minutes at best.
     
    dcaviation
    Posts: 487
    Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:26 am

    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:26 pm

    PacoMartin wrote:
    tax1k wrote:
    BWI does have a few more international flights than just London (but not many transoceanic ones)
    British Airways London–Heathrow
    Condor Seasonal: Frankfurt
    Air Canada Express Montréal–Trudeau, Toronto–Pearson
    Southwest Airlines Aruba, Cancún, Liberia (CR), Montego Bay, Nassau, Punta Cana, San José de Costa Rica, San Juan
    Seasonal: Grand Cayman, Providenciales (begins March 7, 2020)
    Spirit Airlines Cancún, Montego Bay, San Juan

    BWI is 15% bigger than Dulles (45 air miles away) and 13% smaller than Philadelphia (90 miles away). Dulles and Philadelphia both have extensive Transatlantic routes and Dulles has a wide selection of routes to Middle East, Asia and Africa
    Emirates Dubai–International
    Etihad Airways Abu Dhabi
    Qatar Airways Doha
    Saudia Jeddah, Riyadh Hajj: Medina
    Air China Beijing–Capital
    All Nippon Airways Tokyo
    Korean Air Seoul–Incheon
    Cathay Pacific Hong Kong
    Ethiopian Airlines Addis Ababa
    Royal Air Maroc Casablanca
    Air India Delhi
    South African Airways Accra, Johannesburg–O. R. Tambo
    Turkish Airlines Istanbul
    United Airlines ....

    The Star Alliance is obviously a big factor, but many of those airlines are not in the Star alliance.


    You forgot few other intl carriers at IAD:
    Aer Lingus
    Air France
    Alitalia
    Avianca
    Austrian
    British Airways
    Cabo Verde
    Copa
    Egyptair
    Icelandair
    KLM
    Lufthansa
    TAP Portugal
    Virgin Atlantic
    Volaris

    Coming soon:
    Iberia
    Swiss
     
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    SRQKEF
    Posts: 1952
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:06 pm

    dcaviation wrote:
    PacoMartin wrote:
    tax1k wrote:
    BWI does have a few more international flights than just London (but not many transoceanic ones)
    British Airways London–Heathrow
    Condor Seasonal: Frankfurt
    Air Canada Express Montréal–Trudeau, Toronto–Pearson
    Southwest Airlines Aruba, Cancún, Liberia (CR), Montego Bay, Nassau, Punta Cana, San José de Costa Rica, San Juan
    Seasonal: Grand Cayman, Providenciales (begins March 7, 2020)
    Spirit Airlines Cancún, Montego Bay, San Juan

    BWI is 15% bigger than Dulles (45 air miles away) and 13% smaller than Philadelphia (90 miles away). Dulles and Philadelphia both have extensive Transatlantic routes and Dulles has a wide selection of routes to Middle East, Asia and Africa
    Emirates Dubai–International
    Etihad Airways Abu Dhabi
    Qatar Airways Doha
    Saudia Jeddah, Riyadh Hajj: Medina
    Air China Beijing–Capital
    All Nippon Airways Tokyo
    Korean Air Seoul–Incheon
    Cathay Pacific Hong Kong
    Ethiopian Airlines Addis Ababa
    Royal Air Maroc Casablanca
    Air India Delhi
    South African Airways Accra, Johannesburg–O. R. Tambo
    Turkish Airlines Istanbul
    United Airlines ....

    The Star Alliance is obviously a big factor, but many of those airlines are not in the Star alliance.


    You forgot few other intl carriers at IAD:
    Aer Lingus
    Air France
    Alitalia
    Avianca
    Austrian
    British Airways
    Cabo Verde
    Copa
    Egyptair
    Icelandair
    KLM
    Lufthansa
    TAP Portugal
    Virgin Atlantic
    Volaris

    Coming soon:
    Iberia
    Swiss


    He specifically mentioned he was only listing flights to the ME, Asia and Africa...out of those airlines you listed, only Cabo Verde applies to that.
    Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
     
    IADCA
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:31 pm

    SRQKEF wrote:
    dcaviation wrote:
    PacoMartin wrote:


    You forgot few other intl carriers at IAD:
    Aer Lingus
    Air France
    Alitalia
    Avianca
    Austrian
    British Airways
    Cabo Verde
    Copa
    Egyptair
    Icelandair
    KLM
    Lufthansa
    TAP Portugal
    Virgin Atlantic
    Volaris

    Coming soon:
    Iberia
    Swiss


    He specifically mentioned he was only listing flights to the ME, Asia and Africa...out of those airlines you listed, only Cabo Verde applies to that.


    And Egyptair, but your overall point is right.
     
    dcaviation
    Posts: 487
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:35 pm

    My point was that on most (not all) of the missed airlines you can go to Asia, ME or Africa.
    I'm using exclusivelly United/Lufthansa from IAD to fly to RUH, DXB, DMM, BAH.
     
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    SRQKEF
    Posts: 1952
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    Re: British Airways at B

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:03 pm

    dcaviation wrote:
    My point was that on most (not all) of the missed airlines you can go to Asia, ME or Africa.
    I'm using exclusivelly United/Lufthansa from IAD to fly to RUH, DXB, DMM, BAH.


    That’s a very weird point...you can do the same with BA or any of the US3 from BWI to Asia as well, not really exclusive to IAD. Especially since you phrased your earlier post “you forgot these international airlines.” He didn’t forget, he was just clearly focusing on actual services to those areas he mentioned and not potential connecting opportunities.

    Anyway, I won’t derail the thread further. And yes, I missed Egyptair out of that list, my bad!
    Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
     
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    PacoMartin
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:58 pm

    I should have left the statement stand alone.
    BWI is 15% bigger than Dulles (45 air miles away) and 13% smaller than Philadelphia (90 miles away). Dulles and Philadelphia both have extensive Transatlantic routes and Dulles also has a wide selection of routes to the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.

    BWI has only two transoceanic routes.
    British Airways London–Heathrow
    Condor Seasonal: Frankfurt

    Perhaps the A321XLR will open up more possibilities for point to point Transatlantic routes.
     
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    chunhimlai
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:27 pm

    Thats why DC and Maryland should build a airport to replace DCA/BWI/IAD

    A consolidated airport is definitely larger than any US airport other than ATL (probably LAX/ORD) due to economic scale
     
    IADCA
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:35 pm

    PacoMartin wrote:
    I should have left the statement stand alone.
    BWI is 15% bigger than Dulles (45 air miles away) and 13% smaller than Philadelphia (90 miles away). Dulles and Philadelphia both have extensive Transatlantic routes and Dulles also has a wide selection of routes to the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.

    BWI has only two transoceanic routes.
    British Airways London–Heathrow
    Condor Seasonal: Frankfurt

    Perhaps the A321XLR will open up more possibilities for point to point Transatlantic routes.


    I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. BWI has a lot of passengers because it's a low-cost mecca. NK and WN pull in passengers who are willing to drive further to save money (BWI is widely known to pull LCC passengers from Pennsylvania, for example), but those types of passengers don't typically generate the types of traffic needed to make TATL routes work. What you need to be looking at is the fact that Philadelphia and DC are simply much larger cities than Baltimore. Each of their MSAs are more than twice the size of Baltimore's. The only cities with smaller MSAs than Baltimore that support substantial trans-oceanic services either have huge inbound tourist demand (MCO, LAS) or a huge connecting hub for a legacy carrier (CLT).

    chunhimlai wrote:
    Thats why DC and Maryland should build a airport to replace DCA/BWI/IAD

    A consolidated airport is definitely larger than any US airport other than ATL (probably LAX/ORD) due to economic scale


    And in your infinite wisdom, I'm sure you realize that the only contiguous, flat plot of land anywhere near those cities that would be suitable for such a huge airport is...Dulles. Seriously, the land is there - the IAD property is larger than all but five US commercial airports. But doing that would just make a huge clusterf--- of anyone trying to get there and would leave Baltimore without an airport. Why do you seem to think that every multi-airport city needs to build a single ginormous train wreck of an airport? It's only marginally smarter in this situation than London, where you suggested...widebodies...at LCY.
     
    fiddlerkrt
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:36 am

    Hi folks,

    Having lived in MD near BWI, I totally understand the nuisance it is for some people to drive to IAD, but whatever (this has been discussed to death on other threads)

    Can we actually discuss the revenue agreement MD has with BA, because it's not obvious how it works? Am I correct in thinking that if the operating margin does not meet some target (let's say 8% although I could be way off) then MD just pays BA 5 million dollars (or sum large amount of money) for the year? Is it possible that the flight has been profitable for most years it has operated but it has one of the lowest margins of BA's TATL routes?

    The fares on this route are NOT cheap (it's often cheaper to fly out of IAD) so I would be very interested to hear if someone has some more knowledge on how this arrangement works. The word subsidy implies that the flight just gets a lump sum every year and the operating margin is not important. I'm also seeing 772 or 77W equipment on the route these days rather than the 788 or 789 which I am assuming is down to engine troubles with the 787.
     
    lawair
    Posts: 245
    Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:08 am

    fiddlerkrt wrote:
    Can we actually discuss the revenue agreement MD has with BA, because it's not obvious how it works? Am I correct in thinking that if the operating margin does not meet some target (let's say 8% although I could be way off) then MD just pays BA 5 million dollars (or sum large amount of money) for the year? Is it possible that the flight has been profitable for most years it has operated but it has one of the lowest margins of BA's TATL routes?


    I believe you're correct that the guarantee was once for an operating margin of 8%, and that the flight was likely profitable to some degree with the exception of a few years. That was when Maryland only needed to pay a calculated amount between 0 and 5 (or later 5.5) million to guarantee that level of margin.

    My understanding of the current arrangement is that Maryland is effectively guaranteeing that the flight will be more profitable than the average BA US route. If it doesn't reach that level, then Maryland will pay the full amount of the guarantee, even if it misses the average by a small amount. With a lot more routes having opened in recent years, it's not clear to me how BA's average performance is on US routes and how the BWI route compares. But the passenger and cargo numbers have jumped significantly since the start of 787 service.

    The sad thing for BWI is it probably wouldn't need the guarantee if Baltimore were a standalone city and supported the current level of traffic. But its proximity to a much larger operation at IAD means the route has to affirmatively justify its existence.
     
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    chunhimlai
    Posts: 616
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:33 am

    IADCA wrote:
    PacoMartin wrote:
    I should have left the statement stand alone.
    BWI is 15% bigger than Dulles (45 air miles away) and 13% smaller than Philadelphia (90 miles away). Dulles and Philadelphia both have extensive Transatlantic routes and Dulles also has a wide selection of routes to the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.

    BWI has only two transoceanic routes.
    British Airways London–Heathrow
    Condor Seasonal: Frankfurt

    Perhaps the A321XLR will open up more possibilities for point to point Transatlantic routes.


    I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. BWI has a lot of passengers because it's a low-cost mecca. NK and WN pull in passengers who are willing to drive further to save money (BWI is widely known to pull LCC passengers from Pennsylvania, for example), but those types of passengers don't typically generate the types of traffic needed to make TATL routes work. What you need to be looking at is the fact that Philadelphia and DC are simply much larger cities than Baltimore. Each of their MSAs are more than twice the size of Baltimore's. The only cities with smaller MSAs than Baltimore that support substantial trans-oceanic services either have huge inbound tourist demand (MCO, LAS) or a huge connecting hub for a legacy carrier (CLT).

    chunhimlai wrote:
    Thats why DC and Maryland should build a airport to replace DCA/BWI/IAD

    A consolidated airport is definitely larger than any US airport other than ATL (probably LAX/ORD) due to economic scale


    And in your infinite wisdom, I'm sure you realize that the only contiguous, flat plot of land anywhere near those cities that would be suitable for such a huge airport is...Dulles. Seriously, the land is there - the IAD property is larger than all but five US commercial airports. But doing that would just make a huge clusterf--- of anyone trying to get there and would leave Baltimore without an airport. Why do you seem to think that every multi-airport city needs to build a single ginormous train wreck of an airport? It's only marginally smarter in this situation than London, where you suggested...widebodies...at LCY.


    Tipton Airport used to be a good option
    Annapolis may be a good place now
     
    IADCA
    Posts: 2194
    Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:30 pm

    chunhimlai wrote:
    IADCA wrote:
    PacoMartin wrote:
    I should have left the statement stand alone.
    BWI is 15% bigger than Dulles (45 air miles away) and 13% smaller than Philadelphia (90 miles away). Dulles and Philadelphia both have extensive Transatlantic routes and Dulles also has a wide selection of routes to the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.

    BWI has only two transoceanic routes.
    British Airways London–Heathrow
    Condor Seasonal: Frankfurt

    Perhaps the A321XLR will open up more possibilities for point to point Transatlantic routes.


    I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. BWI has a lot of passengers because it's a low-cost mecca. NK and WN pull in passengers who are willing to drive further to save money (BWI is widely known to pull LCC passengers from Pennsylvania, for example), but those types of passengers don't typically generate the types of traffic needed to make TATL routes work. What you need to be looking at is the fact that Philadelphia and DC are simply much larger cities than Baltimore. Each of their MSAs are more than twice the size of Baltimore's. The only cities with smaller MSAs than Baltimore that support substantial trans-oceanic services either have huge inbound tourist demand (MCO, LAS) or a huge connecting hub for a legacy carrier (CLT).

    chunhimlai wrote:
    Thats why DC and Maryland should build a airport to replace DCA/BWI/IAD

    A consolidated airport is definitely larger than any US airport other than ATL (probably LAX/ORD) due to economic scale


    And in your infinite wisdom, I'm sure you realize that the only contiguous, flat plot of land anywhere near those cities that would be suitable for such a huge airport is...Dulles. Seriously, the land is there - the IAD property is larger than all but five US commercial airports. But doing that would just make a huge clusterf--- of anyone trying to get there and would leave Baltimore without an airport. Why do you seem to think that every multi-airport city needs to build a single ginormous train wreck of an airport? It's only marginally smarter in this situation than London, where you suggested...widebodies...at LCY.


    Tipton Airport used to be a good option
    Annapolis may be a good place now


    The moon is about as viable an option as either of those.
     
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    chunhimlai
    Posts: 616
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:48 pm

    IADCA wrote:
    chunhimlai wrote:
    IADCA wrote:

    I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. BWI has a lot of passengers because it's a low-cost mecca. NK and WN pull in passengers who are willing to drive further to save money (BWI is widely known to pull LCC passengers from Pennsylvania, for example), but those types of passengers don't typically generate the types of traffic needed to make TATL routes work. What you need to be looking at is the fact that Philadelphia and DC are simply much larger cities than Baltimore. Each of their MSAs are more than twice the size of Baltimore's. The only cities with smaller MSAs than Baltimore that support substantial trans-oceanic services either have huge inbound tourist demand (MCO, LAS) or a huge connecting hub for a legacy carrier (CLT).



    And in your infinite wisdom, I'm sure you realize that the only contiguous, flat plot of land anywhere near those cities that would be suitable for such a huge airport is...Dulles. Seriously, the land is there - the IAD property is larger than all but five US commercial airports. But doing that would just make a huge clusterf--- of anyone trying to get there and would leave Baltimore without an airport. Why do you seem to think that every multi-airport city needs to build a single ginormous train wreck of an airport? It's only marginally smarter in this situation than London, where you suggested...widebodies...at LCY.


    Tipton Airport used to be a good option
    Annapolis may be a good place now


    The moon is about as viable an option as either of those.


    But the two place are accessible to DC / Baltimore city centre within 1 hour but the moon is not.
     
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    Polot
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:00 pm

    chunhimlai wrote:
    IADCA wrote:
    chunhimlai wrote:

    Tipton Airport used to be a good option
    Annapolis may be a good place now


    The moon is about as viable an option as either of those.


    But the two place are accessible to DC / Baltimore city centre within 1 hour but the moon is not.

    Just because an airport is near a city doesn’t make it suitable. Those are airports out in the suburbs with a single runway <3000ft in length. They can’t handle commercial traffic and NIMBY opposition will ensure that they are never expanded so they could.
     
    IADCA
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:56 pm

    chunhimlai wrote:
    IADCA wrote:
    chunhimlai wrote:

    Tipton Airport used to be a good option
    Annapolis may be a good place now


    The moon is about as viable an option as either of those.


    But the two place are accessible to DC / Baltimore city centre within 1 hour but the moon is not.


    Tipton is literally right next to the NSA headquarters. It's a complete non-starter for that reason alone.

    Annapolis is only under an hour from either Baltimore or DC at certain times of day. It's over an hour inbound now from Annapolis, and it'll be the reverse in the afternoon. And I'm not sure why "under an hour" is a good metric when you're talking two MSAs with a total population of 10 million having a single airport an hour away from most of them. That's...really bad. (Not to mention that most of Fairfax County, VA, which is well over a million people - meaning, bigger than Baltimore - is more like an hour and a half from Annapolis in rush hour. That's like expecting everyone on Long Island to fly out of EWR. It's just a ridiculous proposition. There's a reason that two cities with a combined population of 10 million have multiple airports. With the way American cities and their suburbs sprawl out, it's not feasible to do otherwise.
    Last edited by IADCA on Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    richierich
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:42 pm

    lawair wrote:
    My understanding of the current arrangement is that Maryland is effectively guaranteeing that the flight will be more profitable than the average BA US route. If it doesn't reach that level, then Maryland will pay the full amount of the guarantee, even if it misses the average by a small amount. With a lot more routes having opened in recent years, it's not clear to me how BA's average performance is on US routes and how the BWI route compares. But the passenger and cargo numbers have jumped significantly since the start of 787 service.


    I don't know if it is just a seasonal adjustment but BA has upgraded BWI to a B772 service. Tonight's flight (Dec. 11) is scheduled to be operated by G-VIIT for example.
    Four years ago, this route was one of the last transatlantic routes BA operated with the B763. The B788 was a natural successor, and quite an improvement in customer comfort, but now It has gone from a B788 to a B772. Although I suppose the B788 is a more versatile aircraft and possibly could be better used elsewhere, I don't think BA would have done that if the route was struggling and relied on a subsidy to survive.
    None shall pass!!!!
     
    BA777FO
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:03 pm

    richierich wrote:
    lawair wrote:
    My understanding of the current arrangement is that Maryland is effectively guaranteeing that the flight will be more profitable than the average BA US route. If it doesn't reach that level, then Maryland will pay the full amount of the guarantee, even if it misses the average by a small amount. With a lot more routes having opened in recent years, it's not clear to me how BA's average performance is on US routes and how the BWI route compares. But the passenger and cargo numbers have jumped significantly since the start of 787 service.


    I don't know if it is just a seasonal adjustment but BA has upgraded BWI to a B772 service. Tonight's flight (Dec. 11) is scheduled to be operated by G-VIIT for example.
    Four years ago, this route was one of the last transatlantic routes BA operated with the B763. The B788 was a natural successor, and quite an improvement in customer comfort, but now It has gone from a B788 to a B772. Although I suppose the B788 is a more versatile aircraft and possibly could be better used elsewhere, I don't think BA would have done that if the route was struggling and relied on a subsidy to survive.


    It's due to 787 engine issues. Evelop is performing a wet lease on the LGW-JFK route for BA to allow a LGW based 777 to operate the LHR-BWI sector.

    Back on September G-VIIP was doing the same thing. It's just temporary.
     
    FluidFlow
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:09 pm

    Dulles is great to connect trough as you can have a Smoke. If you survive in the small glass hut deprived of oxygen. (Is it still there?)
     
    richierich
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:11 pm

    BA777FO wrote:
    It's due to 787 engine issues. Evelop is performing a wet lease on the LGW-JFK route for BA to allow a LGW based 777 to operate the LHR-BWI sector.

    Back on September G-VIIP was doing the same thing. It's just temporary.



    That makes sense...thank you for the info.
    Not to get off-topic, but has anybody tried Evelop? I can only imagine a few surprised looks from pax expecting to board a BA plane are greeted by an Evelop plane and staff.
    None shall pass!!!!
     
    izbtmnhd
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:39 pm

    tax1k wrote:
    Anyone know why BWI can’t hold any international airlines other than BA (with a heavy subsidy)? You would think that the Maryland DC suburbs plus government related business plus Baltimore could at least hold a route to a hub.


    IAD serves the fast-growing high-income area of the DC-Balt metro. BWI does not. Pretty much explains why the air service is divided the way it is.

    Without some sort of population shift towards Baltimore it'll never be a major international gateway. IAD has plenty of capacity as well. It is what it is.
     
    washingtonflyer
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    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:11 pm

    chunhimlai wrote:
    Thats why DC and Maryland should build a airport to replace DCA/BWI/IAD

    A consolidated airport is definitely larger than any US airport other than ATL (probably LAX/ORD) due to economic scale


    WTH? DC and MD should build an airport to replace DCA/IAD/BWI.... K

    Nobody except for malcontents in Georgetown and Palisades wants DCA to be shuttered.

    Building an airport near BWI? When you already have BWI?

    Silly.
     
    fiddlerkrt
    Posts: 79
    Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:23 am

    Re: British Airways at BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:30 pm

    lawair wrote:
    fiddlerkrt wrote:
    Can we actually discuss the revenue agreement MD has with BA, because it's not obvious how it works? Am I correct in thinking that if the operating margin does not meet some target (let's say 8% although I could be way off) then MD just pays BA 5 million dollars (or sum large amount of money) for the year? Is it possible that the flight has been profitable for most years it has operated but it has one of the lowest margins of BA's TATL routes?


    I believe you're correct that the guarantee was once for an operating margin of 8%, and that the flight was likely profitable to some degree with the exception of a few years. That was when Maryland only needed to pay a calculated amount between 0 and 5 (or later 5.5) million to guarantee that level of margin.

    My understanding of the current arrangement is that Maryland is effectively guaranteeing that the flight will be more profitable than the average BA US route. If it doesn't reach that level, then Maryland will pay the full amount of the guarantee, even if it misses the average by a small amount. With a lot more routes having opened in recent years, it's not clear to me how BA's average performance is on US routes and how the BWI route compares. But the passenger and cargo numbers have jumped significantly since the start of 787 service.

    The sad thing for BWI is it probably wouldn't need the guarantee if Baltimore were a standalone city and supported the current level of traffic. But its proximity to a much larger operation at IAD means the route has to affirmatively justify its existence.


    Thank-you, lawair, for this very helpful information.

    I'm hopeful that EI might relaunch BWI-DUB with the A321 at some point although I realise that it would be competing with its own IAD service. Maybe we might see a return of FI once the MAX situation has been resolved.
     
    AEROFAN
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    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:42 pm

    IADCA wrote:
    AEROFAN wrote:
    BWIAirport wrote:
    Getting from BWI to downtown DC is absolutely miserable.

    Have you ever made this trip? Free shuttle bus to the Amtrak/Marc station and from there a train ride to Union Station in DC that lasts about 30mins. Which part of this is miserable? It is certainly quicker and less of a hassle traveling that traveling from Dulles to DC.


    It's probably still better than from IAD, but it does depend on what he means by "downtown DC." If where you're going isn't walkable from Union - and that's hardly the area most people think about as really being downtown DC - suddenly you're talking about at least one Metro connection, and more if your destination isn't on the Red Line. So what looks like a quick shuttle bus to a single-seat train ride is suddenly bus to a train to a train to another train, which can be a pain if you have bags. And that's without building in waiting times for trains, which can be brutal (sometimes 20 minutes on Metro) off-peak and on weekends.



    You've got a point. DC's metro can indeed be a mess. But the same would apply to the silver line to Dulles as well as the red line. I live in walking distance of Union Station and flying into and out of Dulles has never occurred to me. I always just schlep to NYC via Amtrak or use DCA to fly to JFK if the price is reasonable.
    “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
     
    jasoncrh
    Posts: 780
    Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:26 pm

    Dulles has nonstop flights on multiple airlines all over the world. I fly from there all the time - wouldnt even consider taking a train to New York for 3-4 hours, then battling the disastrous ground infrastructure in NYC from Penn Station to get out to JFK. That's just as bad (if not worse) than taking a $40-$50 uber from downtown DC out to Dulles, or taking the silver line and then the bus, which for me takes about an hour all in. Did you just move here or something? Are you really not aware that an airport that serves over 20 million passengers annually with like 30 international airlines is within an hour of your house? You're really willing to spend at least a quarter to a half a day to go up to JFK? That's very very odd.

    AEROFAN wrote:
    IADCA wrote:
    AEROFAN wrote:
    Have you ever made this trip? Free shuttle bus to the Amtrak/Marc station and from there a train ride to Union Station in DC that lasts about 30mins. Which part of this is miserable? It is certainly quicker and less of a hassle traveling that traveling from Dulles to DC.


    It's probably still better than from IAD, but it does depend on what he means by "downtown DC." If where you're going isn't walkable from Union - and that's hardly the area most people think about as really being downtown DC - suddenly you're talking about at least one Metro connection, and more if your destination isn't on the Red Line. So what looks like a quick shuttle bus to a single-seat train ride is suddenly bus to a train to a train to another train, which can be a pain if you have bags. And that's without building in waiting times for trains, which can be brutal (sometimes 20 minutes on Metro) off-peak and on weekends.



    You've got a point. DC's metro can indeed be a mess. But the same would apply to the silver line to Dulles as well as the red line. I live in walking distance of Union Station and flying into and out of Dulles has never occurred to me. I always just schlep to NYC via Amtrak or use DCA to fly to JFK if the price is reasonable.
     
    LOT767301ER
    Posts: 126
    Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:14 am

    Re: British Airways a BWI

    Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:32 pm

    PacoMartin wrote:
    dcaproducer wrote:
    Not to nit-pick, but San Juan is not international.


    I showed up at Guam once without a passport and pointed out to security that Guam was not an international destination. They told me to shut up and bring a passport next time.

    I have a tendency to include territories with international destinations since then.


    You have a tendency to include a domestic destination incorrectly because some idiot in Guam told you to bring a passport? Tell them to shut up next time and stop posting domestic destinations in an international list.

    https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-980?language=en_US
    Last edited by LOT767301ER on Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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