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YYZORD
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:59 am

Is there any routes AC can add out of YYZ for transborder other than SJC or is the growth stopping here?
 
cirrusdragoon
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:00 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:

To be fair Montreal was a lost cause anyway given WestJet isn't investing in having their entire flight staff trained to speak French and redo all of the automated announcements.


Well you know what if they want to be a real airline in comparison to AC they're going to have to put on their big boy pants and suck it up.

YUL as Canada's second largest city and huge market for international traffic has pathetic service from Westjet. It's beyond me how they can't even keep a year round flight to YVR and gave up on FLL especially when the competition constantly fills multiple daily 767's.


AC is a real airline? Please, they're just the monopoly incumbent, and airport slots aren't exactly being freed up. If I were running WestJet I wouldn't absorb that cost either. It's pointless given having "flag carrier" status is these days a fairly worthless moniker while the airline alliances are showing signs of crumbling. Put that cash toward your hard and soft product and on good market research. Montreal is a fortress and is known by tourists and businesses alike to be aggressively anti-English. Let it rot while I eat into AC's U.S. market and get my international game going.


Well said
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am

cirrusdragoon wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:

Well you know what if they want to be a real airline in comparison to AC they're going to have to put on their big boy pants and suck it up.

YUL as Canada's second largest city and huge market for international traffic has pathetic service from Westjet. It's beyond me how they can't even keep a year round flight to YVR and gave up on FLL especially when the competition constantly fills multiple daily 767's.


AC is a real airline? Please, they're just the monopoly incumbent, and airport slots aren't exactly being freed up. If I were running WestJet I wouldn't absorb that cost either. It's pointless given having "flag carrier" status is these days a fairly worthless moniker while the airline alliances are showing signs of crumbling. Put that cash toward your hard and soft product and on good market research. Montreal is a fortress and is known by tourists and businesses alike to be aggressively anti-English. Let it rot while I eat into AC's U.S. market and get my international game going.


Well said


Are we really comparing AC's international network here to WJ's

789's a few times a week to DUB and FCO from YYC, Westjet has a long way to go....

In regards to YUL serving ~12.5 million international passengers a year, I think they are doing just fine. I'm just saying if they want to be a big player they are going to have to jump in a some point.
Last edited by alexdelzotto1 on Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am

LAX772LR wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
To be fair Montreal was a lost cause anyway given WestJet isn't investing in having their entire flight staff trained to speak French and redo all of the automated announcements.

what would they have to redo?

99% sure that their automated announcements were bilingual already, when I flew LAX-YVR on them a while back.


By Canadian law, all Canadian air carriers must make all safety announcements in English and French. However at WS that usually means pre-recorded French announcements with unilingual anglophone F/As. It’s also often the case at AC’s regional “Express” carriers, which don’t fall under the Air Canada Public Participation Act.

Some niche carriers in Canada have recorded announcements in Indigenous languages such as Air Inuit and Canadian North in Inuktitut and Air Creebec in Cree.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:29 am

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
Well said


Are we really comparing AC's international network here to WJ's

789's a few times a week to DUB and FCO from YYC, Westjet has a long way to go....

WestJet is young, but as I said, the main problem is slots. Their business strategy has so far been fairly flawless but for the lack of money to buy the latest and greatest on regionals early on.

Of the seven biggest Canadian airports, only 2 have ANY slots open for sale, and not at all in prime time. Air Canada or their equivalent of ESCROW trust own over 68% of all slots available in Canada, including the international ones. It's pretty tough to build up a large network when there just aren't good travel times available, and it's not like WS has the capital to just match people's existing Aeroplan miles to buy their business. And nor would I advise them to join any alliances at the moment. Qantas and BA have very little presence in Canada. Malaysian doesn't have any. Cathay is retracting. After Trudeau is gone the other Chinese carriers are going to be under the microscope... That basically nukes One World from orbit. Star Alliance is off limits because of AC. As for SkyTeam, well, your only valuable European partner for that is Air France, which is basically in bed with AC anyway. So you can either just partner with Delta, Jet Blue, Southwest, and LCCs in the U.S. while carving out a niche in Europe that doesn't funnel through Amsterdam or Heathrow (ouch), or you can somehow try to court SkyTeam and figure out how to get Virgin Australia to fly to Canada...

Air Canada is Canada's most hated airline even if it's the most popular in North America. It's far from a gold standard. From my limited 2 flight experience with them, I'd happily take West Jet from Vancouver to Melbourne over Air Canada. AC's international service shines brightest in economy, and I appreciate that deeply, but for transcon oh my God does it go down hill.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:36 am

Dominion301 wrote:
By Canadian law, all Canadian air carriers must make all safety announcements in English and French.

That I knew, but thought it applied to domestic/transborder flights only.... do their overseas flights have to do so as well?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:38 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
what would they have to redo?

By Canadian law, all Canadian air carriers must make all safety announcements in English and French.

That I knew, but thought it applied to domestic/transborder flights only.... do their overseas flights have to do so as well?

I haven't been on their 777s, but based on the 788/9 out of BNE/MEL and then on to Newark from YVR, I think it holds universally for their international flights too. It's charming the first couple times, but you can tell the cabin crew are just as annoyed with it as their experienced passengers.
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:45 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
Well said


Are we really comparing AC's international network here to WJ's

789's a few times a week to DUB and FCO from YYC, Westjet has a long way to go....

WestJet is young, but as I said, the main problem is slots. Their business strategy has so far been fairly flawless but for the lack of money to buy the latest and greatest on regionals early on.

Of the seven biggest Canadian airports, only 2 have ANY slots open for sale, and not at all in prime time. Air Canada or their equivalent of ESCROW trust own over 68% of all slots available in Canada, including the international ones. It's pretty tough to build up a large network when there just aren't good travel times available, and it's not like WS has the capital to just match people's existing Aeroplan miles to buy their business. And nor would I advise them to join any alliances at the moment. Qantas and BA have very little presence in Canada. Malaysian doesn't have any. Cathay is retracting. After Trudeau is gone the other Chinese carriers are going to be under the microscope... That basically nukes One World from orbit. Star Alliance is off limits because of AC. As for SkyTeam, well, your only valuable European partner for that is Air France, which is basically in bed with AC anyway. So you can either just partner with Delta, Jet Blue, Southwest, and LCCs in the U.S. while carving out a niche in Europe that doesn't funnel through Amsterdam or Heathrow (ouch), or you can somehow try to court SkyTeam and figure out how to get Virgin Australia to fly to Canada...

Air Canada is Canada's most hated airline even if it's the most popular in North America. It's far from a gold standard. From my limited 2 flight experience with them, I'd happily take West Jet from Vancouver to Melbourne over Air Canada. AC's international service shines brightest in economy, and I appreciate that deeply, but for transcon oh my God does it go down hill.


Really most hated airline in Canada, Why cause CBC choses to bash AC every other week. The problem with anything based entirely on customer feedback is that the number of people who have flown multiple airlines sufficiently to make a sensible comparison is almost zero. "I once had a bad experience on X and I once had a good experience on Y, therefore Y is better than X." There are very few people whose opinions are worth anything when it comes to these comparisons.

And I don't get your comparison on AC international to transcon service. Whether you're flying to MEL on a 789 and then to YUL on another 789 it's the same hard product. And I'd chose AC's ageing 320's any day over WJ's 737's with those dinosaur IFE screens.
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:58 am

YYZORD wrote:
Is there any routes AC can add out of YYZ for transborder other than SJC or is the growth stopping here?


Anyway back on topic

Besides returning to SLC maybe with a A220, I think AC has YYZ pretty well covered.

Didn't they just drop OMA?
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:00 am

double
Last edited by alexdelzotto1 on Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:00 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
By Canadian law, all Canadian air carriers must make all safety announcements in English and French.

That I knew, but thought it applied to domestic/transborder flights only.... do their overseas flights have to do so as well?


Absolutely. Unlike the US where Spanish is optional/a courtesy, in Canada we have two official languages and basic information must be communicated in both on all flights regardless of origin or destination.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:28 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
AC is a real airline? Please, they're just the monopoly incumbent, and airport slots aren't exactly being freed up. If I were running WestJet I wouldn't absorb that cost either. It's pointless given having "flag carrier" status is these days a fairly worthless moniker while the airline alliances are showing signs of crumbling. Put that cash toward your hard and soft product and on good market research. Montreal is a fortress and is known by tourists and businesses alike to be aggressively anti-English. Let it rot while I eat into AC's U.S. market and get my international game going.


Montreal is certainly no more "anti-English" (many of its residents are anglophone) than Calgary is anti-Quebec, and by extension anti-AC. That hasn't stopped AC from locating a substantial hub in YYC.

Also, if by anti-English you mean wanting to be served in their own language, Canada has got to be the only place in the world where that's seen as shocking. Swiss isn't going to operate flights out of Geneva and be annoyed that people want to be served in French. U2 and FR aren't going to fly from Berlin without having German-speaking crews.
Last edited by YYZLGA on Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:32 am

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Is there any routes AC can add out of YYZ for transborder other than SJC or is the growth stopping here?


Anyway back on topic

Besides returning to SLC maybe with a A220, I think AC has YYZ pretty well covered.

Didn't they just drop OMA?


Pure AC mainline? SLC, SAT, and then things thin out to maybe SMF (long and thin), JAX (probably more likely Express), and SRQ (more likely Rouge)

As far as AC Express: CHS, MSN, SDF, GRR, ORF, RIC, PWM, GSP, and OKC to varying degrees could be attractive
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:38 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
[
Second, it's only Brisbane where load factors are atrocious during non-ski season. Melbourne is packed to the gills every stinking day. Sydney is strong too. Only reason yield isn't amazing is they're running on a 772LR instead of a 789. So down gauging and going for a second 789 would improve yields for AC.


772LR has only 2 seats more than 789, and it has a more premium-heavy layout (11 fewer Y-class seats). If anything, 772LR should therefore generate higher yields.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:48 am

YYZLGA wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
[
Second, it's only Brisbane where load factors are atrocious during non-ski season. Melbourne is packed to the gills every stinking day. Sydney is strong too. Only reason yield isn't amazing is they're running on a 772LR instead of a 789. So down gauging and going for a second 789 would improve yields for AC.


772LR has only 2 seats more than 789, and it has a more premium-heavy layout (11 fewer Y-class seats). If anything, 772LR should therefore generate higher yields.


If YVR-SYD can be 2x daily, it makes me wonder why QF can't make SYD-YVR work year round with a 789 as they have codeshare partnership with WS. Also anyone know when AC will make YVR-MEL daily?
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:52 am

GSP psgr wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Is there any routes AC can add out of YYZ for transborder other than SJC or is the growth stopping here?


Anyway back on topic

Besides returning to SLC maybe with a A220, I think AC has YYZ pretty well covered.

Didn't they just drop OMA?


Pure AC mainline? SLC, SAT, and then things thin out to maybe SMF (long and thin), JAX (probably more likely Express), and SRQ (more likely Rouge)

As far as AC Express: CHS, MSN, SDF, GRR, ORF, RIC, PWM, GSP, and OKC to varying degrees could be attractive


Those all make sense as possibilities, though most seem pretty unlikely. SRQ is already served seasonally with Rouge. They have been cutting back a lot of the Express routes to places like upstate New York, which surprised me somewhat as they are trying to build a hub operation for U.S.-Europe, and those would seem like relevant markets.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:56 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
AC operating YYC - BOS is akin to Delta operating DEN-CLT.

It'd never happen. Delta is far too disciplined to take on this sort flying.

That discipline is rewarded by annual margins AC could only dream of.


What on earth are you blabbering on about?

4 hubs in a market with a population of 38m people. I'd suggest that, in of itself, is evidence of a lack of discipline. Most people understand why there's a 4th hub in Calgary and why there'd be a 5th in Edmonton if a legitimate airline started up there, and a 6th in Winnipeg if the same happened and a 7th in Halifax if that were to occur. Therein lies the difference. If everything is a "hub" or a "focus city" then everything is justified on the basis of hub or focus city flying. The US carriers are far more disciplined when it comes to this sort of thinking.

That's the backwater of Canadian aviation.
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:58 am

GSP psgr wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Is there any routes AC can add out of YYZ for transborder other than SJC or is the growth stopping here?


Anyway back on topic

Besides returning to SLC maybe with a A220, I think AC has YYZ pretty well covered.

Didn't they just drop OMA?


Pure AC mainline? SLC, SAT, and then things thin out to maybe SMF (long and thin), JAX (probably more likely Express), and SRQ (more likely Rouge)

As far as AC Express: CHS, MSN, SDF, GRR, ORF, RIC, PWM, GSP, and OKC to varying degrees could be attractive


JAX was already tried by Jazz, I believe it was ended last year.
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:00 am

GSP psgr wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:

Anyway back on topic

Besides returning to SLC maybe with a A220, I think AC has YYZ pretty well covered.

Didn't they just drop OMA?


Pure AC mainline? SLC, SAT, and then things thin out to maybe SMF (long and thin), JAX (probably more likely Express), and SRQ (more likely Rouge)

As far as AC Express: CHS, MSN, SDF, GRR, ORF, RIC, PWM, GSP, and OKC to varying degrees could be attractive



SAT was also served by E75 and was dropped after one summer.
Last edited by alexdelzotto1 on Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
alexdelzotto1
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Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:01 am

Double post
Last edited by alexdelzotto1 on Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:21 am, edited 7 times in total.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:02 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
AC operating YYC - BOS is akin to Delta operating DEN-CLT.

It'd never happen. Delta is far too disciplined to take on this sort flying.

That discipline is rewarded by annual margins AC could only dream of.


What on earth are you blabbering on about?

4 hubs in a market with a population of 38m people. I'd suggest that, in of itself, is evidence of a lack of discipline. Most people understand why there's a 4th hub in Calgary and why there'd be a 5th in Edmonton if a legitimate airline started up there, and a 6th in Winnipeg if the same happened and a 7th in Halifax if that were to occur. Therein lies the difference. If everything is a "hub" or a "focus city" then everything is justified on the basis of hub or focus city flying. The US carriers are far more disciplined when it comes to this sort of thinking.

That's the backwater of Canadian aviation.


Ah, so what you want is for AC to abandon the YYC hub so that WS faces less competition. Now I get what you were on about. AC seems to be doing just fine as it is, and unlike some, I have no interest in playing armchair CEO. I'm quite happy that Canadian consumers benefit from a variety of available services, and I have no desire for Canadian airlines to exercise more "discipline" (aka anti-competitive behaviour). If anything, there is already too little domestic competition, as our domestic fares are extremely high by the standards of comparable countries like Australia.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:02 am

YYZORD wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
[
Second, it's only Brisbane where load factors are atrocious during non-ski season. Melbourne is packed to the gills every stinking day. Sydney is strong too. Only reason yield isn't amazing is they're running on a 772LR instead of a 789. So down gauging and going for a second 789 would improve yields for AC.


772LR has only 2 seats more than 789, and it has a more premium-heavy layout (11 fewer Y-class seats). If anything, 772LR should therefore generate higher yields.


If YVR-SYD can be 2x daily, it makes me wonder why QF can't make SYD-YVR work year round with a 789 as they have codeshare partnership with WS. Also anyone know when AC will make YVR-MEL daily?


I think AC have maxed out the Canadian side of the CAN-AUS bilateral, so unless that changes AC can’t add any additional.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:16 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
AC operating YYC - BOS is akin to Delta operating DEN-CLT.

It'd never happen. Delta is far too disciplined to take on this sort flying.

That discipline is rewarded by annual margins AC could only dream of.


What on earth are you blabbering on about?

4 hubs in a market with a population of 38m people. I'd suggest that, in of itself, is evidence of a lack of discipline. Most people understand why there's a 4th hub in Calgary and why there'd be a 5th in Edmonton if a legitimate airline started up there, and a 6th in Winnipeg if the same happened and a 7th in Halifax if that were to occur. Therein lies the difference. If everything is a "hub" or a "focus city" then everything is justified on the basis of hub or focus city flying. The US carriers are far more disciplined when it comes to this sort of thinking.

That's the backwater of Canadian aviation.


The four AC “focus cities” of YHZ, YOW, YEG and YWG (which are arguably also WS focus cities) are more akin to DL at RDU or MCO or PDX or IND or AUS. The fact that AA this week just announced 3 non-hub routes out of AUS, seems to indicate that a hub-only strategy might not be the be-all-end-all.

Also, comparing Canada to the US isn’t entirely fair given our east-west population distribution and the fact that 1/2 the country lives in the dozen largest cities. This creates far higher O&D on a city pair like YOW-YWG than say on OKC-SYR (US cities of comparable size to Ottawa and Winnipeg) and lo-and-behold multiple daily nonstops on a non-hub city pair.

Both AC and WS even operate a handful of non-hub, non-focus city routes such as YQB-YZV for the former and YLW-YYJ for the latter. None of the US3 do that save for the odd Saturday seasonal sun flying. Only WN really do that in the US on a handful of routes like GEG-BOI, excluding the ULCCs.

Also keep in mind the market is much bigger than 38 million when you factor in the ease with which US pax can transit Canadian hubs to 3rd countries.

I guess the point I’m trying to make of all this is that AC must be doing something right these days if they have over 5 billion in unrestricted liquidity, an enormous change in the past decade.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:08 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
Second, it's only Brisbane where load factors are atrocious during non-ski season. Melbourne is packed to the gills every stinking day. Sydney is strong too. Only reason yield isn't amazing is they're running on a 772LR instead of a 789. So down gauging and going for a second 789 would improve yields for AC.


Please don't confuse yield with route profitability. Yield is the average fare per passenger per mile- it has nothing to do with operational costs.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:01 pm

jimbo737 wrote:

What on earth are you blabbering on about?

4 hubs in a market with a population of 38m people. I'd suggest that, in of itself, is evidence of a lack of discipline. Most people understand why there's a 4th hub in Calgary and why there'd be a 5th in Edmonton if a legitimate airline started up there, and a 6th in Winnipeg if the same happened and a 7th in Halifax if that were to occur. Therein lies the difference. If everything is a "hub" or a "focus city" then everything is justified on the basis of hub or focus city flying. The US carriers are far more disciplined when it comes to this sort of thinking.

That's the backwater of Canadian aviation.


So I guess that's why people from YEG , YWG, YOW are always complaining that AC and WS are only adding new routes from their hubs and not these secondary locations...Yes, lack of discipline alright.

From your pointless rant, I guess you want AC to only have 1 hub: YYZ, and all other metro areas in the country should only have service to YYZ right?

Do everyone a favor, think before you type. Your "4 hubs for 38 million " is not an argument. Those 4 hubs you speak of and their catchment areas cover over 50% of Canada's population.

Last time i checked, DL had 8 hubs/focus cities, AA 10, UA 8, B6 5 etc. Even with all the number of hubs these airlines have, they don't each have that 50% coverage.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:04 pm

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
Really most hated airline in Canada, Why cause CBC choses to bash AC every other week. The problem with anything based entirely on customer feedback is that the number of people who have flown multiple airlines sufficiently to make a sensible comparison is almost zero. "I once had a bad experience on X and I once had a good experience on Y, therefore Y is better than X." There are very few people whose opinions are worth anything when it comes to these comparisons.

And I don't get your comparison on AC international to transcon service. Whether you're flying to MEL on a 789 and then to YUL on another 789 it's the same hard product. And I'd chose AC's ageing 320's any day over WJ's 737's with those dinosaur IFE screens.

Because AC paid off the Canadian feds to let them buy out all of their competition, repeatedly, while jacking up domestic prices ridiculously while flying into the U.S. and then on to the target Canadian city was cheaper...

Like I said WestJet just doesn't ave the capital for an all-new fleet. Startup airlines never do. Their 787 product is still miles better than AC's.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:05 pm

eta unknown wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Second, it's only Brisbane where load factors are atrocious during non-ski season. Melbourne is packed to the gills every stinking day. Sydney is strong too. Only reason yield isn't amazing is they're running on a 772LR instead of a 789. So down gauging and going for a second 789 would improve yields for AC.


Please don't confuse yield with route profitability. Yield is the average fare per passenger per mile- it has nothing to do with operational costs.

I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.
 
flyyul
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:14 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Second, it's only Brisbane where load factors are atrocious during non-ski season. Melbourne is packed to the gills every stinking day. Sydney is strong too. Only reason yield isn't amazing is they're running on a 772LR instead of a 789. So down gauging and going for a second 789 would improve yields for AC.


Please don't confuse yield with route profitability. Yield is the average fare per passenger per mile- it has nothing to do with operational costs.

I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.


Boy do you have a chip on your shoulder. The Brisbane route is a really good route for Air Canada - in fact it's better than Melbourne. I would suggest you pause, take a deep breath, and let the adults who know what they're talking about do the speaking.
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 552
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:15 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
To be fair Montreal was a lost cause anyway given WestJet isn't investing in having their entire flight staff trained to speak French and redo all of the automated announcements.

what would they have to redo?

99% sure that their automated announcements were bilingual already, when I flew LAX-YVR on them a while back.


By Canadian law, all Canadian air carriers must make all safety announcements in English and French. However at WS that usually means pre-recorded French announcements with unilingual anglophone F/As. It’s also often the case at AC’s regional “Express” carriers, which don’t fall under the Air Canada Public Participation Act.

Some niche carriers in Canada have recorded announcements in Indigenous languages such as Air Inuit and Canadian North in Inuktitut and Air Creebec in Cree.

I have wondered for a while what the laws were re: English/French language on flights in Canada generally. I know special rules apply re: cabin service and labelling/signage on AC, but based on my experience I've assumed that those laws don't apply across the board to other airlines. As for the safety announcements, it makes total sense that they be mandatorily given in both English and French, but in practice I wonder how strongly that law is applied? On flights I have taken between YUL and the US, on the US regional carriers frequently the safety announcements are only made in English (on AA Eagle I have heard them sporadically play the French recording, but on DL to my recollection I have never heard anything in French out of YUL); the AC flights are obviously always fully bilingual in cabin service and safety announcements.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4460
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:19 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
Really most hated airline in Canada, Why cause CBC choses to bash AC every other week. The problem with anything based entirely on customer feedback is that the number of people who have flown multiple airlines sufficiently to make a sensible comparison is almost zero. "I once had a bad experience on X and I once had a good experience on Y, therefore Y is better than X." There are very few people whose opinions are worth anything when it comes to these comparisons.

And I don't get your comparison on AC international to transcon service. Whether you're flying to MEL on a 789 and then to YUL on another 789 it's the same hard product. And I'd chose AC's ageing 320's any day over WJ's 737's with those dinosaur IFE screens.

Because AC paid off the Canadian feds to let them buy out all of their competition, repeatedly, while jacking up domestic prices ridiculously while flying into the U.S. and then on to the target Canadian city was cheaper...

Like I said WestJet just doesn't ave the capital for an all-new fleet. Startup airlines never do. Their 787 product is still miles better than AC's.


What the living hell are you talking about. The WestJet business class seat is exactly the same as Air Canada, and their IFE is exactly the same.
 
patrickjp93
Posts: 648
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:51 pm

flyyul wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:

Please don't confuse yield with route profitability. Yield is the average fare per passenger per mile- it has nothing to do with operational costs.

I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.


Boy do you have a chip on your shoulder. The Brisbane route is a really good route for Air Canada - in fact it's better than Melbourne. I would suggest you pause, take a deep breath, and let the adults who know what they're talking about do the speaking.

Cute. Brisbane is a 788 year round. It won't even be flown with a 789 this ski season. Second, I've run that route ten times, and neither Y nor J are more than 2/3 full in the off season. And those Y seats are at 79cm pitch vs. 76 for MEL. And I've flown out of MEL packed to the gills 4 times in the off season. I understand the sample size is small, but you're joking. Even the stats published by the australian government do not support your claims. Brisbane is the drag on the network with Sydney just being a less than optimal plane for the capacity.
 
patrickjp93
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:53 pm

flyyul wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
Really most hated airline in Canada, Why cause CBC choses to bash AC every other week. The problem with anything based entirely on customer feedback is that the number of people who have flown multiple airlines sufficiently to make a sensible comparison is almost zero. "I once had a bad experience on X and I once had a good experience on Y, therefore Y is better than X." There are very few people whose opinions are worth anything when it comes to these comparisons.

And I don't get your comparison on AC international to transcon service. Whether you're flying to MEL on a 789 and then to YUL on another 789 it's the same hard product. And I'd chose AC's ageing 320's any day over WJ's 737's with those dinosaur IFE screens.

Because AC paid off the Canadian feds to let them buy out all of their competition, repeatedly, while jacking up domestic prices ridiculously while flying into the U.S. and then on to the target Canadian city was cheaper...

Like I said WestJet just doesn't ave the capital for an all-new fleet. Startup airlines never do. Their 787 product is still miles better than AC's.


What the living hell are you talking about. The WestJet business class seat is exactly the same as Air Canada, and their IFE is exactly the same.

I've only ever flown business twice. The PE product is better, the menu is better, and the staff are equally attentive to domestic travelers as they are international. Air Canada's best product is their economy class internationally on the 772 and 787. Their staff pretty much shut down on YVR-EWR, and not providing a breakfast meal for that flight in the ticket should be a crime given the lack of options in both airports.
Last edited by patrickjp93 on Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4460
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:56 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
flyyul wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.


Boy do you have a chip on your shoulder. The Brisbane route is a really good route for Air Canada - in fact it's better than Melbourne. I would suggest you pause, take a deep breath, and let the adults who know what they're talking about do the speaking.

Cute. Brisbane is a 788 year round. It won't even be flown with a 789 this ski season. Second, I've run that route ten times, and neither Y nor J are more than 2/3 full in the off season. And those Y seats are at 79cm pitch vs. 76 for MEL. And I've flown out of MEL packed to the gills 4 times in the off season. I understand the sample size is small, but you're joking. Even the stats published by the australian government do not support your claims. Brisbane is the drag on the network with Sydney just being a less than optimal plane for the capacity.


Let me tell you what's actually cute - I actually know what i'm talking about. In fact, I'm looking at the route performance data right now :)
So if you want to argue with me, please by all means....but you're simply wrong.
MEL is on the 787-9 as it's the only airplane that will make it operationally - the range of the 787-8 is constrained on this route.

Do yourself a favor, quit while you're ahead. You've embarrassed yourself enough on this thread.
 
cirrusdragoon
Posts: 236
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:59 pm

flyyul wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
Really most hated airline in Canada, Why cause CBC choses to bash AC every other week. The problem with anything based entirely on customer feedback is that the number of people who have flown multiple airlines sufficiently to make a sensible comparison is almost zero. "I once had a bad experience on X and I once had a good experience on Y, therefore Y is better than X." There are very few people whose opinions are worth anything when it comes to these comparisons.

And I don't get your comparison on AC international to transcon service. Whether you're flying to MEL on a 789 and then to YUL on another 789 it's the same hard product. And I'd chose AC's ageing 320's any day over WJ's 737's with those dinosaur IFE screens.

Because AC paid off the Canadian feds to let them buy out all of their competition, repeatedly, while jacking up domestic prices ridiculously while flying into the U.S. and then on to the target Canadian city was cheaper...

Like I said WestJet just doesn't ave the capital for an all-new fleet. Startup airlines never do. Their 787 product is still miles better than AC's.


What the living hell are you talking about. The WestJet business class seat is exactly the same as Air Canada, and their IFE is exactly the same.


Not accurate. WS J class seat does not have the "deflategate" issue as AC does. WS customers don’t have to bring their own camping foam pads along with them because WS opted for a non inflatable cushion. As well WS has an extendable privacy divider in the centre seats. Keep calm, keep accurate.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:02 pm

flyyul wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
flyyul wrote:

Boy do you have a chip on your shoulder. The Brisbane route is a really good route for Air Canada - in fact it's better than Melbourne. I would suggest you pause, take a deep breath, and let the adults who know what they're talking about do the speaking.

Cute. Brisbane is a 788 year round. It won't even be flown with a 789 this ski season. Second, I've run that route ten times, and neither Y nor J are more than 2/3 full in the off season. And those Y seats are at 79cm pitch vs. 76 for MEL. And I've flown out of MEL packed to the gills 4 times in the off season. I understand the sample size is small, but you're joking. Even the stats published by the australian government do not support your claims. Brisbane is the drag on the network with Sydney just being a less than optimal plane for the capacity.


Let me tell you what's actually cute - I actually know what i'm talking about. In fact, I'm looking at the route performance data right now :)
So if you want to argue with me, please by all means....but you're simply wrong.
MEL is on the 787-9 as it's the only airplane that will make it operationally - the range of the 787-8 is constrained on this route.

Do yourself a favor, quit while you're ahead. You've embarrassed yourself enough on this thread.

The 772 used for Sydney can also make it just fine. And clearly you're not looking at the data. 88% load factor in economy, 93% PE, 91% business for FY 19.

And not to mention Air Canada increased frequency to Melbourne because of its performance. https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q4.pdf
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2875
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:40 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Second, it's only Brisbane where load factors are atrocious during non-ski season. Melbourne is packed to the gills every stinking day. Sydney is strong too. Only reason yield isn't amazing is they're running on a 772LR instead of a 789. So down gauging and going for a second 789 would improve yields for AC.


Please don't confuse yield with route profitability. Yield is the average fare per passenger per mile- it has nothing to do with operational costs.

I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.


What the heck are you talking about and why oh why are you always so angry? Do you read what you write before posting- your choice of words is somewhat confrontational.
How do yo know MEL is always full- where do you work- what data do you have access to, or are you just being confrontational?
While I'm sure BNE could do better (789 iso 788) the route is still around after many years. I will admit the AU set up under the previous Country Manager left a lot to be desired, but it's improved with the new appointment about 2 years ago.
 
Dominion301
Topic Author
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:52 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
what would they have to redo?

99% sure that their automated announcements were bilingual already, when I flew LAX-YVR on them a while back.


By Canadian law, all Canadian air carriers must make all safety announcements in English and French. However at WS that usually means pre-recorded French announcements with unilingual anglophone F/As. It’s also often the case at AC’s regional “Express” carriers, which don’t fall under the Air Canada Public Participation Act.

Some niche carriers in Canada have recorded announcements in Indigenous languages such as Air Inuit and Canadian North in Inuktitut and Air Creebec in Cree.

I have wondered for a while what the laws were re: English/French language on flights in Canada generally. I know special rules apply re: cabin service and labelling/signage on AC, but based on my experience I've assumed that those laws don't apply across the board to other airlines. As for the safety announcements, it makes total sense that they be mandatorily given in both English and French, but in practice I wonder how strongly that law is applied? On flights I have taken between YUL and the US, on the US regional carriers frequently the safety announcements are only made in English (on AA Eagle I have heard them sporadically play the French recording, but on DL to my recollection I have never heard anything in French out of YUL); the AC flights are obviously always fully bilingual in cabin service and safety announcements.


The law only applies to Canadian carriers. French safety announcements are mandatory on all flights operated by Canadian air carriers. If a Canadian carrier got caught not doing so, they could face a hefty fine. AC recently got a slap on the wrist in a lawsuit about some seatbelts having only the English word 'lift' with no French. Fortunately Canadians are slowly starting to adopt the European move towards using symbols as much as possible to avoid these types of situations (e.g., the running stick figure at the emergency exit / sortie d'urgence instead of the actual English/French words themselves).

US carriers can optionally do it out of courtesy on a transborder route, just like AC could offer German on FRA and MUC flights, but aren't legally obligated to do so.
Last edited by Dominion301 on Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:55 pm

eta unknown wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:

Please don't confuse yield with route profitability. Yield is the average fare per passenger per mile- it has nothing to do with operational costs.

I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.


What the heck are you talking about and why oh why are you always so angry? Do you read what you write before posting- your choice of words is somewhat confrontational.
How do yo know MEL is always full- where do you work- what data do you have access to, or are you just being confrontational?
While I'm sure BNE could do better (789 iso 788) the route is still around after many years. I will admit the AU set up under the previous Country Manager left a lot to be desired, but it's improved with the new appointment about 2 years ago.

I was just accused of being ignorant or stupid. I say the claimant is the one confused. Most people's instinctive reaction to being punched in the face is to strike back.

I've worked in Australia for 3.5 years and I have BITRE data backing my claims. BNE is the only route not doing well in the off-peak season, but if Air Canada gives up the Brisbane slot, Qantas will take it year round since there is capacity for both during ski season. Melbourne's 789 in the 10 or so times I've flown off season has barely had empty seats in any class. I've flown BNE-YVR 6 times and it's not been more than 2/3 full on any flight. You get entire empty rows to yourself (making an excellent economy sky couch more often than not). Not sure what more to tell you.
 
Dominion301
Topic Author
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:58 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.


What the heck are you talking about and why oh why are you always so angry? Do you read what you write before posting- your choice of words is somewhat confrontational.
How do yo know MEL is always full- where do you work- what data do you have access to, or are you just being confrontational?
While I'm sure BNE could do better (789 iso 788) the route is still around after many years. I will admit the AU set up under the previous Country Manager left a lot to be desired, but it's improved with the new appointment about 2 years ago.

I was just accused of being ignorant or stupid. I say the claimant is the one confused. Most people's instinctive reaction to being punched in the face is to strike back.

I've worked in Australia for 3.5 years and I have BITRE data backing my claims. BNE is the only route not doing well in the off-peak season, but if Air Canada gives up the Brisbane slot, Qantas will take it year round since there is capacity for both during ski season. Melbourne's 789 in the 10 or so times I've flown off season has barely had empty seats in any class. I've flown BNE-YVR 6 times and it's not been more than 2/3 full on any flight. You get entire empty rows to yourself (making an excellent economy sky couch more often than not). Not sure what more to tell you.


Trust me when I say FLYYUL has access to even better data than BITRE.

Do many routes have slower periods? Sure most do, but that doesn't necessarily mean making them seasonal is a wise decision.
 
wave46
Posts: 185
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:01 pm

Maybe I just have low expectations, but I've always wondered about the hyperbole that surrounds these things.

I've flown both AC and Westjet and found them comparable domestically. Given that there's only 2 major airlines in the country, I'm not surprised one of them is 'most hated' and the other is 'most liked', on whatever metric you want to gauge that (does Flair count?). It has to be that way logically - it's like two siblings who are 6' and 6'1" arguing about who is tallest and shortest of them - they're the same height, basically. It's not like there's a dozen airlines competing for a flight across Canada.

Regarding the 4 hub situation. There's a reason why somewhere like Canada has 3/4 hubs - it's a huge country with several pockets of concentrated population. It's all and wonderful for the Netherlands to fly out of Amsterdam only, but that's not practical here. So, YVR, YYC, YYZ and YUL all can be hubs. The US has close to a dozen or more hubs for their 4 major airlines - again, a product of geography and population.

Re: AC buying Canadian Airlines. That was no gift - that was being forced to eat someone else's mess. It probably set AC back a decade and caused them a pile of misery and trips through bankruptcy court. If I had to speculate, I'd say that was one of the things that really helped Westjet, not hurt them - who would want to fly AC during the early 2000s when you could fly on the pleasant upstart?

Anyway...I was interested where AC might be flying. I wonder if there might be an "Air Canada Routes/News" thread and a Westjet one, just to keep things on track.
 
Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:08 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.


What the heck are you talking about and why oh why are you always so angry? Do you read what you write before posting- your choice of words is somewhat confrontational.
How do yo know MEL is always full- where do you work- what data do you have access to, or are you just being confrontational?
While I'm sure BNE could do better (789 iso 788) the route is still around after many years. I will admit the AU set up under the previous Country Manager left a lot to be desired, but it's improved with the new appointment about 2 years ago.

I was just accused of being ignorant or stupid. I say the claimant is the one confused. Most people's instinctive reaction to being punched in the face is to strike back.

I've worked in Australia for 3.5 years and I have BITRE data backing my claims. BNE is the only route not doing well in the off-peak season, but if Air Canada gives up the Brisbane slot, Qantas will take it year round since there is capacity for both during ski season. Melbourne's 789 in the 10 or so times I've flown off season has barely had empty seats in any class. I've flown BNE-YVR 6 times and it's not been more than 2/3 full on any flight. You get entire empty rows to yourself (making an excellent economy sky couch more often than not). Not sure what more to tell you.


Help me understand something, you're telling me that BNE which is daily year-round is not performing as well as MEL which operates at 4x weekly? Hilarious
 
patrickjp93
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Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:14 pm

Thomaas wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:

What the heck are you talking about and why oh why are you always so angry? Do you read what you write before posting- your choice of words is somewhat confrontational.
How do yo know MEL is always full- where do you work- what data do you have access to, or are you just being confrontational?
While I'm sure BNE could do better (789 iso 788) the route is still around after many years. I will admit the AU set up under the previous Country Manager left a lot to be desired, but it's improved with the new appointment about 2 years ago.

I was just accused of being ignorant or stupid. I say the claimant is the one confused. Most people's instinctive reaction to being punched in the face is to strike back.

I've worked in Australia for 3.5 years and I have BITRE data backing my claims. BNE is the only route not doing well in the off-peak season, but if Air Canada gives up the Brisbane slot, Qantas will take it year round since there is capacity for both during ski season. Melbourne's 789 in the 10 or so times I've flown off season has barely had empty seats in any class. I've flown BNE-YVR 6 times and it's not been more than 2/3 full on any flight. You get entire empty rows to yourself (making an excellent economy sky couch more often than not). Not sure what more to tell you.


Help me understand something, you're telling me that BNE which is daily year-round is not performing as well as MEL which operates at 4x weekly? Hilarious

BNE-YVR until very recently was only 5x weekly, not daily. As for Melbourne, Air Canada doesn't have the slots to go daily. They'd have to buy a couple off of ANZ to keep the same morning times.

Second, again, route yield, not passenger yield. While AC can fly people from MEL to SYD and BNE on days they don't have MEL slots and thus funnel the capacity that way, the actual MEL flights are packed, and the BNE ones are not. If the slot situation at MEL improves, BNE will drop back to 5x weekly without a doubt.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:30 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
I'm not the one confusing it. AC's problem is not at all per-passenger yield. It's route yield and profit, and Brisbane is the only drag on their network to Oz.


What the heck are you talking about and why oh why are you always so angry? Do you read what you write before posting- your choice of words is somewhat confrontational.
How do yo know MEL is always full- where do you work- what data do you have access to, or are you just being confrontational?
While I'm sure BNE could do better (789 iso 788) the route is still around after many years. I will admit the AU set up under the previous Country Manager left a lot to be desired, but it's improved with the new appointment about 2 years ago.

I was just accused of being ignorant or stupid. I say the claimant is the one confused. Most people's instinctive reaction to being punched in the face is to strike back.

I've worked in Australia for 3.5 years and I have BITRE data backing my claims. BNE is the only route not doing well in the off-peak season, but if Air Canada gives up the Brisbane slot, Qantas will take it year round since there is capacity for both during ski season. Melbourne's 789 in the 10 or so times I've flown off season has barely had empty seats in any class. I've flown BNE-YVR 6 times and it's not been more than 2/3 full on any flight. You get entire empty rows to yourself (making an excellent economy sky couch more often than not). Not sure what more to tell you.


First off, I think you're still confusing yield. Secondly, BNE is not slot restricted. Thirdly, AC operates as a North America based carrier whose POS is predominantly the Northern hemisphere, not Australia so while it might be high season ex AU in DEC/JAN, the same is not true ex Canada/USA. I also can't keep up how many times you have pretended to have flown BNE-YVR over the years (4?, 6?), but BNE has been daily for a long time. Lastly, your response to why your behaviour here is so aggressive ("I was just accused of being ignorant or stupid") demonstrates you have some serious anger management issues. The comment that upset you related to not confusing route profitability with yield was a statement- it did not call you ignorant or stupid although it's scary how you interpret that statement to include those words. Do you hear voices in your head?
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:38 pm

eta unknown wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:

What the heck are you talking about and why oh why are you always so angry? Do you read what you write before posting- your choice of words is somewhat confrontational.
How do yo know MEL is always full- where do you work- what data do you have access to, or are you just being confrontational?
While I'm sure BNE could do better (789 iso 788) the route is still around after many years. I will admit the AU set up under the previous Country Manager left a lot to be desired, but it's improved with the new appointment about 2 years ago.

I was just accused of being ignorant or stupid. I say the claimant is the one confused. Most people's instinctive reaction to being punched in the face is to strike back.

I've worked in Australia for 3.5 years and I have BITRE data backing my claims. BNE is the only route not doing well in the off-peak season, but if Air Canada gives up the Brisbane slot, Qantas will take it year round since there is capacity for both during ski season. Melbourne's 789 in the 10 or so times I've flown off season has barely had empty seats in any class. I've flown BNE-YVR 6 times and it's not been more than 2/3 full on any flight. You get entire empty rows to yourself (making an excellent economy sky couch more often than not). Not sure what more to tell you.


First off, I think you're still confusing yield. Secondly, BNE is not slot restricted. Thirdly, AC operates as a North America based carrier whose POS is predominantly the Northern hemisphere, not Australia so while it might be high season ex AU in DEC/JAN, the same is not true ex Canada/USA. I also can't keep up how many times you have pretended to have flown BNE-YVR over the years (4?, 6?), but BNE has been daily for a long time. Lastly, your response to why your behaviour here is so aggressive ("I was just accused of being ignorant or stupid") demonstrates you have some serious anger management issues. The comment that upset you related to not confusing route profitability with yield was a statement- it did not call you ignorant or stupid although it's scary how you interpret that statement to include those words. Do you hear voices in your head?


I didn't say BNE was slot restricted. I said AC doesn't have the remaining morning time slots it would want out of Melbourne to keep their YVR flight at a consistent time (crucial for feeding the YVR-EWR flight). As for BNE itself, if Air Canada gave up on year-round service it would definitely lose a lot of business to Qantas at BNE, as during peak season both AC and QF have full loads to YVR.

Second, Air Canada very actively markets AU-YVR-EWR as "the fastest Aussie flight to New York" and has demonstrated very often for me that roughly half or more of the YVR-EWR travelers are from those 3 ex-AU flights.

When you claim someone is confused, using the actual definition of the word, you say they're either lacking information or misusing it. If you remove the case of malicious intent, "confusion" means "either ignorant of facts or lacking intelligence to use them." If you'd like that proven with a boolean equation, I'm happy to show you.

Definitions matter. If they didn't engineering would be easy.
 
YYZLGA
Posts: 444
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:53 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
Really most hated airline in Canada, Why cause CBC choses to bash AC every other week. The problem with anything based entirely on customer feedback is that the number of people who have flown multiple airlines sufficiently to make a sensible comparison is almost zero. "I once had a bad experience on X and I once had a good experience on Y, therefore Y is better than X." There are very few people whose opinions are worth anything when it comes to these comparisons.

And I don't get your comparison on AC international to transcon service. Whether you're flying to MEL on a 789 and then to YUL on another 789 it's the same hard product. And I'd chose AC's ageing 320's any day over WJ's 737's with those dinosaur IFE screens.

Because AC paid off the Canadian feds to let them buy out all of their competition, repeatedly, while jacking up domestic prices ridiculously while flying into the U.S. and then on to the target Canadian city was cheaper...

Like I said WestJet just doesn't ave the capital for an all-new fleet. Startup airlines never do. Their 787 product is still miles better than AC's.


Where on earth did you get the idea that AC paid off the feds to let them buy Canadian? It was quite the opposite. AC was perfectly happy to let Canadian go bankrupt and pick up the handful of routes they actually wanted. Canadian's elderly, mostly leased fleet and its underfunded pension obligations weren't exactly valuable assets.
 
YYCFlier
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:56 pm

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
YUL as Canada's second largest city and huge market for international traffic has pathetic service from Westjet. It's beyond me how they can't even keep a year round flight to YVR and gave up on FLL especially when the competition constantly fills multiple daily 767's.


Because YUL is not a WestJet hub. It's an outstation.

WestJet's hub strategy has YYC > YYZ > YVR. YYC is the western hub, YYZ the eastern hub, with YVR as a secondary hub for YYC with far less traffic.
AC's hub strategy has YYZ > YVR > YUL > YYC. YVR is the western hub, with YYC as a secondary hub, and in the east YYZ is the major hub with YUL being secondary to YYZ, but still very large and growing.

Every airline's strategy in Canada can't be to duplicate AC's hub strategy, that makes no sense. There's no competitive advantage. And it makes zero sense for WestJet to setup a hub in YUL. YYZ can grow way more than it is and be more profitable, and when the competition bureau rolls over, YUL will be a fortress hub for AC as it eats Transat.

Many people question how much more WS can grow in YYC, but the reality is it's really using YYC as a hub. WS has very high (50%+) connecting traffic in YYC. Sure, having high O&D is the easiest way to make a route profitable, but you can do it with lower O&D if you have a strong feeder network, which is exactly what they have.

AC's hub at YYC is by far the smallest; their moniker is to say "Air Canada's major hubs" which means "all the hubs but Calgary". I don't see any international growth out of YYC in AC's future beyond transborder or sun destinations, and I hope we can maintain LHR, FRA and NRT. Elsewhere, AC is retreating as WS entrenches.

YYC-BOS is very conservative - it's a very short seasonal route. I can't imagine they don't make it profitable.
 
patrickjp93
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:00 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
Really most hated airline in Canada, Why cause CBC choses to bash AC every other week. The problem with anything based entirely on customer feedback is that the number of people who have flown multiple airlines sufficiently to make a sensible comparison is almost zero. "I once had a bad experience on X and I once had a good experience on Y, therefore Y is better than X." There are very few people whose opinions are worth anything when it comes to these comparisons.

And I don't get your comparison on AC international to transcon service. Whether you're flying to MEL on a 789 and then to YUL on another 789 it's the same hard product. And I'd chose AC's ageing 320's any day over WJ's 737's with those dinosaur IFE screens.

Because AC paid off the Canadian feds to let them buy out all of their competition, repeatedly, while jacking up domestic prices ridiculously while flying into the U.S. and then on to the target Canadian city was cheaper...

Like I said WestJet just doesn't ave the capital for an all-new fleet. Startup airlines never do. Their 787 product is still miles better than AC's.


Where on earth did you get the idea that AC paid off the feds to let them buy Canadian? It was quite the opposite. AC was perfectly happy to let Canadian go bankrupt and pick up the handful of routes they actually wanted. Canadian's elderly, mostly leased fleet and its underfunded pension obligations weren't exactly valuable assets.

Canadian at the time was fairly likely to get bailed out by the Chinese through a JV. Canadian's slots and craft, for the price paid, were easily assets. The staff and their pensions were pretty much liquidated. If the Canadian authorities had taken the slots and held them for sale to competitors, AC wouldn't be near the monopoly power it is.

As for AC paying off their antitrust regulators, well, the before and after marketshare numbers pretty much say it all. Air Canada already had more than 50% of traffic at most airports, so it shouldn't have been allowed to buy Canadian's slots under the law. Nowadays between Jazz, Rouge, and AC Express, it's 68% of slots and almost 3/4 of actual traffic in Canada is through AC.
 
wave46
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 am

Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:07 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Because AC paid off the Canadian feds to let them buy out all of their competition, repeatedly, while jacking up domestic prices ridiculously while flying into the U.S. and then on to the target Canadian city was cheaper...

Like I said WestJet just doesn't ave the capital for an all-new fleet. Startup airlines never do. Their 787 product is still miles better than AC's.


Where on earth did you get the idea that AC paid off the feds to let them buy Canadian? It was quite the opposite. AC was perfectly happy to let Canadian go bankrupt and pick up the handful of routes they actually wanted. Canadian's elderly, mostly leased fleet and its underfunded pension obligations weren't exactly valuable assets.

Canadian at the time was fairly likely to get bailed out by the Chinese through a JV. Canadian's slots and craft, for the price paid, were easily assets. The staff and their pensions were pretty much liquidated. If the Canadian authorities had taken the slots and held them for sale to competitors, AC wouldn't be near the monopoly power it is.


I'm confused. I thought American Airlines had designs for Canadian. The Chinese weren't even really in the picture in the late 1990s.

The staff of Canadian and Air Canada were integrated, causing many problems with integration.

The Asian financial crisis in 1997 severely hurt Canadian. The slots weren't worth much and the billions of dollars in debt Canadian had were a millstone around the company's neck.

AC would have been better off without the 'monopoly'.
 
patrickjp93
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:14 pm

wave46 wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:

Where on earth did you get the idea that AC paid off the feds to let them buy Canadian? It was quite the opposite. AC was perfectly happy to let Canadian go bankrupt and pick up the handful of routes they actually wanted. Canadian's elderly, mostly leased fleet and its underfunded pension obligations weren't exactly valuable assets.

Canadian at the time was fairly likely to get bailed out by the Chinese through a JV. Canadian's slots and craft, for the price paid, were easily assets. The staff and their pensions were pretty much liquidated. If the Canadian authorities had taken the slots and held them for sale to competitors, AC wouldn't be near the monopoly power it is.


I'm confused. I thought American Airlines had designs for Canadian. The Chinese weren't even really in the picture in the late 1990s.

The staff of Canadian and Air Canada were integrated, causing many problems with integration.

The Asian financial crisis in 1997 severely hurt Canadian. The slots weren't worth much and the billions of dollars in debt Canadian had were a millstone around the company's neck.

AC would have been better off without the 'monopoly'.

China's been heavily involved in Vancouver since the 80s. You can pretty much get a 1:1 correlation between Chinese money flowing into Canada and real estate prices soaring on their speculation. In fact Tshingua Group is still quietly fishing around for a small but capable international airline based in North America. Only problem is Transat is basically dead and Delta and Emirates both have their fingers in WS' pie already, and the US3 are not about to give Jet Blue any breathing room to get slots into China.

The slots were valuable enough to become AC's big push for Euro flights in the early 2000s. Strategy rarely gets executed quickly when it involves infrastructure.
 
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Re: Air Canada Announce Summer Seasonal YUL-BNA, YYC-BOS & More YVR-EWR

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 pm

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