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mercure1
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Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:40 pm

10 x A350-900

Total AF A350 orders stand at 38.

https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/air-fra ... air-france

Order will allow AF to accelerate retirement of A340 by early 2021 and provide enough frame for A380 retirement in 2022.
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SQ22
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:55 pm

And here is the announcement from Airbus:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... -xwbs.html
 
Motorhussy
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:04 pm

I wonder if we’ll also see an AF order for the A350-1000?

Congrats Airbus and Air France.
come visit the south pacific
 
Prost
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:08 pm

That seems like a quick delivery schedule.
 
TC957
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:12 pm

Prost wrote:
That seems like a quick delivery schedule.

Maybe taking advantage of production slots becoming available then due to UA's delivery postponement ?
 
flash330
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:17 pm

mercure1 wrote:
10 x A350-900

Total AF A350 orders stand at 38.

https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/air-fra ... air-france

Order will allow AF to accelerate retirement of A340 by early 2021 and provide enough frame for A380 retirement in 2022.


Amazing how the 380 only lasts a year longer than the 340, who would have thought that 10 years ago?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:19 pm

This makes more likely a transfer of theIr small 787 fleet to KLM
 
FlySSC
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:23 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
This makes more likely a transfer of theIr small 787 fleet to KLM


Nope. The 10 B787-9 will remain in AF fleet.
 
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:47 pm

AF A350 Livery is one great looking plane.

flash330 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
10 x A350-900

Total AF A350 orders stand at 38.

https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/air-fra ... air-france

Order will allow AF to accelerate retirement of A340 by early 2021 and provide enough frame for A380 retirement in 2022.


Amazing how the 380 only lasts a year longer than the 340, who would have thought that 10 years ago?


That is crazy.
 
VV
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:56 pm

flash330 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
10 x A350-900

Total AF A350 orders stand at 38.

https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/air-fra ... air-france

Order will allow AF to accelerate retirement of A340 by early 2021 and provide enough frame for A380 retirement in 2022.


Amazing how the 380 only lasts a year longer than the 340, who would have thought that 10 years ago?


Maybe some people did.
 
DCA350
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:08 pm

Makes a ton of sense.. The A359 can reach any destination AF fly's and is a drop in replacement for the 777Es and A340s. The 777W replacement will be interesting, but they still have a few years left.
 
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:08 pm

Thanks mercure1 and SQ22.

So we have our answer. Ten A350-900s to replace the A380s and accelerate the retirement of the A343s.

As the A380s continue to leave and more A350s are received, I expect AF to make a number of movements in terms of aircraft allocation, so that some A380 routes are taken over by 77Ws.
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Special
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:25 pm

Hmm I wonder what would replace the 77W fleet then. What are the chances that AF would go for 1 aircraft type to cover all its long-haul flights
 
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:33 pm

Special wrote:
Hmm I wonder what would replace the 77W fleet then. What are the chances that AF would go for 1 aircraft type to cover all its long-haul flights


Unless AF’s 787s end up being transferred to KLM, not much chance of a single long-haul type (plus the 77Ws will be around for a long while yet).
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inkjet7
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:45 pm

FlySSC wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
This makes more likely a transfer of theIr small 787 fleet to KLM


Nope. The 10 B787-9 will remain in AF fleet.


If that's the case they'll need several more to make it possible to use the 787 and 777 on one type rating. Currently there are too many 777's relative to the number of 787's.
As KLM also seems to need some more to replace their A330's will a Boeing order follow in the next few months?
Last edited by inkjet7 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sk736
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:48 pm

Why does KLM have a common pilot type rating for the 777 and 787 but Air France has separate type ratings? (As per the press release in the OP's post.)

Edited for typo.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:55 pm

sk736 wrote:
Why does KLM have a common pilot type rating for the 777 and 787 but Air France has separate type ratings? (As per the press release in the OP's post.)

Edited for typo.


The post above yours would seem to indicate that AF doesn't have enough 787 in the fleet to give its 777 crews enough time on the 787 to maintain it. But I honestly don't *know*.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:57 pm

sk736 wrote:
Why does KLM have a common pilot type rating for the 777 and 787 but Air France has separate type ratings? (As per the press release in the OP's post.)

Edited for typo.

To maintain common type ratings pilots need to actually fly the plane to stay current. When you have a lopsided fleet size (almost 70 777s vs just 10 787s) it is too hard for all the pilots to get enough time on the 787 to stay qualified. So you have to fracture the pilot group- either by having two separate types or only having a select group of pilots be dual rated (which would not go down well with unions).

KL has a common pilot rating because the 787 and 777 fleets are similar in size.
 
FGITD
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:58 pm

sk736 wrote:
Why does KLM have a common pilot type rating for the 777 and 787 but Air France has separate type ratings? (As per the press release in the OP's post.)

Edited for typo.


I read elsewhere that it was something to do with the pay structure for pilots at AF. Given the specific nature of labor at AF, it seems like a feasible answer.


( Quick edit-user Polot's answer certainly makes more sense than this)


Great order for AF though! Can't help but wonder how deep they're going to be digging if they continue naming each frame after French cities like they have been! Sure it would a hit if department names started being used as well.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:03 pm

FGITD wrote:
sk736 wrote:
Why does KLM have a common pilot type rating for the 777 and 787 but Air France has separate type ratings? (As per the press release in the OP's post.)

Edited for typo.


I read elsewhere that it was something to do with the pay structure for pilots at AF. Given the specific nature of labor at AF, it seems like a feasible answer.


( Quick edit-user Polot's answer certainly makes more sense than this)


Great order for AF though! Can't help but wonder how deep they're going to be digging if they continue naming each frame after French cities like they have been! Sure it would a hit if department names started being used as well.


It’s not a pay issue- the A350 and A332 are a common type at AF.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:16 pm

Not a bad year for the A350. By my reckoning over 100 firm orders?
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:19 pm

Kindanew wrote:
Not a bad year for the A350. By my reckoning over 100 firm orders?

This is 123 gross, 75 net.
 
Someone83
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:21 pm

Did they get early delivery slots for these 10?
 
DylanPHarvey
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:27 pm

Do we know what MTOW AF ordered? I'm guessing maybe 272t? That should be sufficient for every route as I have heard AF transport large amounts of belly cargo.
 
Theseus
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:28 pm

AF has received three A359 so far. As far as I can see, they should be deploying them to Abidjan, Bamako and Toronto.
Not sure if they have enough experience with the type already, or should we see in this order a sign that they are pleased with the performance of the type so far ?
 
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:44 pm

Theseus wrote:
AF has received three A359 so far. As far as I can see, they should be deploying them to Abidjan, Bamako and Toronto.
Not sure if they have enough experience with the type already, or should we see in this order a sign that they are pleased with the performance of the type so far ?


They would have had concrete numbers from Airbus before their first one was delivered. They should have known exactly what they were going to be getting. Apparently they like it and have joined the growing band of airlines that have increased their A350 numbers.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Amiga500
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:02 pm

Theseus wrote:
or should we see in this order a sign that they are pleased with the performance of the type so far ?


From what I gather, the TrentXWB is an absolute gem.


[if true, I'm not sure how RR managed to stumble its way to that outcome... unless the wheat was put on that program and I've been dealing with the chaff elsewhere!]
 
airbuster
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:24 pm

Good news for AF. It’s a great addition to the fleet. What I don’t get is the 787s not transferring to KL. AF will have 3 LH and 2 S/MH cockpits. Total 5. Whereas KL will be on 3. If AF would get rid of the 78s that would be 4 which is acceptable given their size.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:14 pm

scbriml wrote:
Apparently they like it and have joined the growing band of airlines that have increased their A350 numbers.

Just like United! :biggrin:
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:10 pm

airbuster wrote:
Good news for AF. It’s a great addition to the fleet. What I don’t get is the 787s not transferring to KL. AF will have 3 LH and 2 S/MH cockpits. Total 5. Whereas KL will be on 3. If AF would get rid of the 78s that would be 4 which is acceptable given their size.


Air France would be getting the bad end of the deal if they swapped shiny new 787s to KLM in exchange for middle-aged A330s.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:15 pm

Special wrote:
Hmm I wonder what would replace the 77W fleet then.

Seems like the A35K would have the inside track there.... though who knows, LH and BA both went with 779, so maybe AF will take a look as well. Could be some combo of both.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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scbriml
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Apparently they like it and have joined the growing band of airlines that have increased their A350 numbers.

Just like United! :biggrin:


Not once, but twice! :wink2:
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VictorKilo
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:21 pm

The AF 789s are the lever that keeps Boeing and Airbus in check on price. If Airbus jacks up 350 pricing, AF can take more 789, and if Boeing jacks up 789 pricing, KL takes the 789 and AF gets more 350s. Having that leverage is worth the cost of keeping them in the AF fleet.
 
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:36 pm

Special wrote:
Hmm I wonder what would replace the 77W fleet then. What are the chances that AF would go for 1 aircraft type to cover all its long-haul flights

A350-1000 is in with a chance. I could also see some of it go to the 777-9 given AF operates some of its 77Ws in a very high density configuration.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:49 pm

a320fan wrote:
I could also see some of it go to the 777-9 given AF operates some of its 77Ws in a very high density configuration.

779's maximum capacity is smaller than the 77W's, despite being a bigger aircraft.

So the COI 77Ws might not sway in the 779's direction any more than other options (using newer 77Ws, or A35Ks) than it may initially seem.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:58 pm

VictorKilo wrote:
The AF 789s are the lever that keeps Boeing and Airbus in check on price. If Airbus jacks up 350 pricing, AF can take more 789, and if Boeing jacks up 789 pricing, KL takes the 789 and AF gets more 350s. Having that leverage is worth the cost of keeping them in the AF fleet.


If it is, indeed, a separate pilot pool as speculated above, it's pretty costly to have pilots for just ten frames, and parts for just ten frames...
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:28 am

Revelation wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Apparently they like it and have joined the growing band of airlines that have increased their A350 numbers.

Just like United! :biggrin:


c'mon REV...no sour grapes. your bias is showing....

Congrats to Airbus on another A350 sale.
learning never stops.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:30 am

If AF needs more first class seats they can always convert a few of their 42J 77Ws. They still feature old seats in J. Looks like the A350 fleet has the potential of becoming huge like the 777 one especially if they eventually order the -1000
 
carlokiii
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:09 am

More A350s replacing the A380s, just like how the 77Ws did for the 747.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:26 am

Theseus wrote:
AF has received three A359 so far. As far as I can see, they should be deploying them to Abidjan, Bamako and Toronto.
Not sure if they have enough experience with the type already, or should we see in this order a sign that they are pleased with the performance of the type so far ?


And yet unless this changes, which I don’t believe will be the case, 2 of the type will be deployed to BOS at the end of March and beginning of May respectively.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e%20Boston
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StudiodeKadent
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:02 am

Motorhussy wrote:
I wonder if we’ll also see an AF order for the A350-1000?


AF were the launch customer for the 777-300ER. They're replacing 777-200s with A350-900s. The A350-1000 is the perfect 777-300ER replacement for AF, and AF have a very large 773 fleet in need of the replacement.

I would be exceptionally shocked if AF didn't order the A350-1000 in time.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:45 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
The AF 789s are the lever that keeps Boeing and Airbus in check on price. If Airbus jacks up 350 pricing, AF can take more 789, and if Boeing jacks up 789 pricing, KL takes the 789 and AF gets more 350s. Having that leverage is worth the cost of keeping them in the AF fleet.


If it is, indeed, a separate pilot pool as speculated above, it's pretty costly to have pilots for just ten frames, and parts for just ten frames...

KLM has many 787s, so the parts pool is bigger than just the 10 AF frames.

Also, AF is good at playing the "don't call us Air France call us Skyteam" card when it comes to parts, and they ask some OEMs to have consignment stock; which doesn't cost AF a dime until they use it.
 
9Patch
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 am

airzona11 wrote:
AF A350 Livery is one great looking plane.


If it looks good on the A350, it looks good on anything, since they are all essentially tubes with wings.
Liveries are either good or they're NOT.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:00 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
Revelation wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Apparently they like it and have joined the growing band of airlines that have increased their A350 numbers.

Just like United! :biggrin:


c'mon REV...no sour grapes. your bias is showing....

Congrats to Airbus on another A350 sale.

For the record, I think UA and AF will both take their large (and getting larger!) A350 orders.

It's a great plane, both airlines will do very well with them.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:23 am

LAX772LR wrote:
a320fan wrote:
I could also see some of it go to the 777-9 given AF operates some of its 77Ws in a very high density configuration.

779's maximum capacity is smaller than the 77W's, despite being a bigger aircraft.

So the COI 77Ws might not sway in the 779's direction any more than other options (using newer 77Ws, or A35Ks) than it may initially seem.


It looks like most of the 77W fleet at AF will be sticking around to the latter half of the 2020's. The average age of the entire 777 fleet (E's & W's) is 14.2 years. The 77E's will be between 18 and 22 years of age in 2020 & will be replaced by the A359's by the mid-2020's. However, the 77W fleet will be between 4 and 16 years old, with 7 of the oldest 77W's likely coming off of lease around 2025 and will probably be the first of that type to go. While I expect the A35K will be an excellent contender to replace the 77W, Boeing will probably designate this order as a "must win" for the 77X program, so expect them to be very aggressive with both price and terms.

It is likely that AF's next priority might be replacing the A320/21CEO's with NEO's to go along with the already-ordered A220's. I also expect AF will work Boeing for a good deal on some more 789's to replace their fleet of A332's. True, they will consider the A338, but historically AF has shied away from Rolls-Royce engines.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:28 am

Good news as far as I’m concerned. I fly AF quite a bit for international, and have come to prefer it after many years of despising CDG. In particular, I love the new J class.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:35 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
While I expect the A35K will be an excellent contender to replace the 77W, Boeing will probably designate this order as a "must win" for the 77X program, so expect them to be very aggressive with both price and terms.

Agreed... though I believe that just like the A330/777, airlines interested in high-capacity options are viewing the A350 and 777X as complimentary, more so than direct competitors.

Look at many of the 779 customers:
BA, CX, AF, EK, QR, etc have not only ordered both A350 + 777X, but included the A35K as part of that selection as well.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
xwb565
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:53 am

VS4ever wrote:
Theseus wrote:
AF has received three A359 so far. As far as I can see, they should be deploying them to Abidjan, Bamako and Toronto.
Not sure if they have enough experience with the type already, or should we see in this order a sign that they are pleased with the performance of the type so far ?


And yet unless this changes, which I don’t believe will be the case, 2 of the type will be deployed to BOS at the end of March and beginning of May respectively.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e%20Boston


The a350 has started flying to ICN this week.
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:19 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
True, they will consider the A338, but historically AF has shied away from Rolls-Royce engines.


And that's why they are buying A350s powered by... what?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:46 am

TC957 wrote:
Prost wrote:
That seems like a quick delivery schedule.

Maybe taking advantage of production slots becoming available then due to UA's delivery postponement ?

I guess that’s what happened.

This order came a little bit unexpected, considering that nowadays new orders will be announced about three times (MoU/LoI, firm order etc.). And they didn’t „save“ this order for an airshow.

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