Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6602
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:24 am

I expect AF has in mind to add to the 789 fleet in the long term, once 332s are up for replacement. But they need to deal with 340s and 380s before they can get around to 332s or 77Es.

We've seen so many operators operate 787s and A350s side by side—it's clear that they have complementary strengths, provided your fleet is big enough.
 
LY777
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:28 am

FlySSC wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
This makes more likely a transfer of theIr small 787 fleet to KLM


Nope. The 10 B787-9 will remain in AF fleet.


I even see AF ordering more 787s to replace the A330s in a few years...

BTW, does the new A350 order mean that AF will finally not order A330neos?
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
StTim
Posts: 3687
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:35 am

LY777 wrote:
FlySSC wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
This makes more likely a transfer of theIr small 787 fleet to KLM


Nope. The 10 B787-9 will remain in AF fleet.


I even see AF ordering more 787s to replace the A330s in a few years...

BTW, does the new A350 order mean that AF will finally not order A330neos?


I would think that we could only call that after the order for replacing the A330ceo’s is announced.
 
Theseus
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:17 am

xwb565 wrote:
The a350 has started flying to ICN this week.


I have just seen that, which, to me, is wonderful news. I may have the chance to try it out in the not too distant future then. :)
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:36 am

FlySSC wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
This makes more likely a transfer of theIr small 787 fleet to KLM


Nope. The 10 B787-9 will remain in AF fleet.


There are indications that those will also move to KLM. The 787-9 fleet is actual just nine.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10517
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:13 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
FlySSC wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
This makes more likely a transfer of theIr small 787 fleet to KLM


Nope. The 10 B787-9 will remain in AF fleet.


There are indications that those will also move to KLM. The 787-9 fleet is actual just nine.

What indications? The fleet overview AF/KL presented a month or so ago (where it was revealed A330s will leave KLM fleet) still showed AF operating 10 787s.

The current fleet is 9, but AF is getting one more next May for a fleet total of 10. The final 6 that were due to be delivered between 2021-2023 are the orders going to KLM. AF/KLM were quite clear about it in the press release announcing the A350/787 order swap.

I don’t see AF giving KLM their small 787 fleet anytime soon. Yes the fleet is small but at this point the costs are sunk (and ongoing costs like maintenance can be shared with KLM). AF are not going to give the crew they have trained on the 787 to KLM too, and KLM wouldn’t be the ones paying for their training to another type. Might as well operate it- they have dealt with only 10 A380s for a decade, and that is without sharing any costs with KLM.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7338
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:48 pm

The 77W fleet will likely be replaced by a combination of 779 and A350. By ordering more A350's Air France is telling us that will be their main intercontinental plane for the next 20 years. With the A380 leaving soon there is space for something larger which is where the 779 comes in. AF probably will not be ordering 779 soon since many 77W are quite young and they have about 40 of them, the A350 are replacing the 777-200ER and A340 fleets.
 
mig17
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:54 pm

jfk777 wrote:
The 77W fleet will likely be replaced by a combination of 779 and A350. By ordering more A350's Air France is telling us that will be their main intercontinental plane for the next 20 years. With the A380 leaving soon there is space for something larger which is where the 779 comes in. AF probably will not be ordering 779 soon since many 77W are quite young and they have about 40 of them, the A350 are replacing the 777-200ER and A340 fleets.

I don't see the 779 at AF. The A359 is going to replace the remaining A343 first and then the older 77E and 77W. AF will be flying A332, A359, 77E and 77W (and 789?) for some time before really needing to retire the newest 77E and 77W. Some 77W are almost new. When they will need to replace those, more A359 and maybe A35K will be favored.
The still open questions are more about what will replace the A332 and what is the 787 future at AF? The answers could be :
- an all A350 longhaul fleet ?
- an all Airbus, one cockpit A330neo/A350 fleet?
- a mix A350 / 787 fleet with 2 cockpit where it is a 4 cockpit today?
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
jghealey
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 5:46 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:26 pm

mig17 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The 77W fleet will likely be replaced by a combination of 779 and A350. By ordering more A350's Air France is telling us that will be their main intercontinental plane for the next 20 years. With the A380 leaving soon there is space for something larger which is where the 779 comes in. AF probably will not be ordering 779 soon since many 77W are quite young and they have about 40 of them, the A350 are replacing the 777-200ER and A340 fleets.

I don't see the 779 at AF. The A359 is going to replace the remaining A343 first and then the older 77E and 77W. AF will be flying A332, A359, 77E and 77W (and 789?) for some time before really needing to retire the newest 77E and 77W. Some 77W are almost new. When they will need to replace those, more A359 and maybe A35K will be favored.
The still open questions are more about what will replace the A332 and what is the 787 future at AF? The answers could be :
- an all A350 longhaul fleet ?
- an all Airbus, one cockpit A330neo/A350 fleet?
- a mix A350 / 787 fleet with 2 cockpit where it is a 4 cockpit today?

AF has so many 77Ws though that in a few years' time will need a replacement - the A350-1000 would be the logical option but it's slightly smaller than the 77W. Therefore, I see two options they could take for the fleet:
- A330neo, A350-900, B777-9
- A330neo or 787, A350-900/1000
Both options have only 2 cockpit types (with the second potentially having only one)... I do think the A330neo is a likely option considering they have the A350. Keeping a small fleet of 787s doesn't seem all that logical unless they order more to replace all the A330s though they wouldn't have commonality with the A350 that way. They do seem to be happy with the A350 and thanks to this I do think an A330neo/A350 fleet would be the best option for them, but if they're not willing to let go of the 777/order 777X they can still maintain commonality by having the A330neo and A350.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23945
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:53 pm

jghealey wrote:
mig17 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The 77W fleet will likely be replaced by a combination of 779 and A350. By ordering more A350's Air France is telling us that will be their main intercontinental plane for the next 20 years. With the A380 leaving soon there is space for something larger which is where the 779 comes in. AF probably will not be ordering 779 soon since many 77W are quite young and they have about 40 of them, the A350 are replacing the 777-200ER and A340 fleets.

I don't see the 779 at AF. The A359 is going to replace the remaining A343 first and then the older 77E and 77W. AF will be flying A332, A359, 77E and 77W (and 789?) for some time before really needing to retire the newest 77E and 77W. Some 77W are almost new. When they will need to replace those, more A359 and maybe A35K will be favored.
The still open questions are more about what will replace the A332 and what is the 787 future at AF? The answers could be :
- an all A350 longhaul fleet ?
- an all Airbus, one cockpit A330neo/A350 fleet?
- a mix A350 / 787 fleet with 2 cockpit where it is a 4 cockpit today?

AF has so many 77Ws though that in a few years' time will need a replacement - the A350-1000 would be the logical option but it's slightly smaller than the 77W. Therefore, I see two options they could take for the fleet:
- A330neo, A350-900, B777-9
- A330neo or 787, A350-900/1000
Both options have only 2 cockpit types (with the second potentially having only one)... I do think the A330neo is a likely option considering they have the A350. Keeping a small fleet of 787s doesn't seem all that logical unless they order more to replace all the A330s though they wouldn't have commonality with the A350 that way. They do seem to be happy with the A350 and thanks to this I do think an A330neo/A350 fleet would be the best option for them, but if they're not willing to let go of the 777/order 777X they can still maintain commonality by having the A330neo and A350.

I thought A330+A350 could be a common cockpit and 787+777 could also be a common cockpit, but various labor agreements would need to be modified to make that happen.

We had some interesting quotes on this from our recent KLM threads but I cannot find them.

One concern is the small 787 fleet makes it hard for AF pilots to stay current on it with a mixed 787/777 pilot pool, but if AF grows the 787 fleet in the future this won't be as significant as it now is.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:40 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
FlySSC wrote:

Nope. The 10 B787-9 will remain in AF fleet.


There are indications that those will also move to KLM. The 787-9 fleet is actual just nine.

What indications? The fleet overview AF/KL presented a month or so ago (where it was revealed A330s will leave KLM fleet) still showed AF operating 10 787s.

The current fleet is 9, but AF is getting one more next May for a fleet total of 10. The final 6 that were due to be delivered between 2021-2023 are the orders going to KLM. AF/KLM were quite clear about it in the press release announcing the A350/787 order swap.

I don’t see AF giving KLM their small 787 fleet anytime soon. Yes the fleet is small but at this point the costs are sunk (and ongoing costs like maintenance can be shared with KLM). AF are not going to give the crew they have trained on the 787 to KLM too, and KLM wouldn’t be the ones paying for their training to another type. Might as well operate it- they have dealt with only 10 A380s for a decade, and that is without sharing any costs with KLM.


Very simple, the CEO talked about it. It was posted here in some thread. As much as it is logical for KLM to go all 787, as logical is it for Air France to go all A350 and if necessary add A330-900.
The point is a change of strategy from running very diverse fleets. At KLM it bites the Airbus wide bodies and at Air France it will bite the Boeing wide bodies.
I think it is quite clear that the days of "big" wide bodies are over at AF, even the A350-1000 seems to be to big.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/air ... 81.article
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10517
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:28 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

There are indications that those will also move to KLM. The 787-9 fleet is actual just nine.

What indications? The fleet overview AF/KL presented a month or so ago (where it was revealed A330s will leave KLM fleet) still showed AF operating 10 787s.

The current fleet is 9, but AF is getting one more next May for a fleet total of 10. The final 6 that were due to be delivered between 2021-2023 are the orders going to KLM. AF/KLM were quite clear about it in the press release announcing the A350/787 order swap.

I don’t see AF giving KLM their small 787 fleet anytime soon. Yes the fleet is small but at this point the costs are sunk (and ongoing costs like maintenance can be shared with KLM). AF are not going to give the crew they have trained on the 787 to KLM too, and KLM wouldn’t be the ones paying for their training to another type. Might as well operate it- they have dealt with only 10 A380s for a decade, and that is without sharing any costs with KLM.


Very simple, the CEO talked about it. It was posted here in some thread. As much as it is logical for KLM to go all 787, as logical is it for Air France to go all A350 and if necessary add A330-900.
The point is a change of strategy from running very diverse fleets. At KLM it bites the Airbus wide bodies and at Air France it will bite the Boeing wide bodies.
I think it is quite clear that the days of "big" wide bodies are over at AF, even the A350-1000 seems to be to big.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/air ... 81.article

That very article quotes Ben Smith as saying that the 787s are currently staying at AF.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:17 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
What indications? The fleet overview AF/KL presented a month or so ago (where it was revealed A330s will leave KLM fleet) still showed AF operating 10 787s.

The current fleet is 9, but AF is getting one more next May for a fleet total of 10. The final 6 that were due to be delivered between 2021-2023 are the orders going to KLM. AF/KLM were quite clear about it in the press release announcing the A350/787 order swap.

I don’t see AF giving KLM their small 787 fleet anytime soon. Yes the fleet is small but at this point the costs are sunk (and ongoing costs like maintenance can be shared with KLM). AF are not going to give the crew they have trained on the 787 to KLM too, and KLM wouldn’t be the ones paying for their training to another type. Might as well operate it- they have dealt with only 10 A380s for a decade, and that is without sharing any costs with KLM.


Very simple, the CEO talked about it. It was posted here in some thread. As much as it is logical for KLM to go all 787, as logical is it for Air France to go all A350 and if necessary add A330-900.
The point is a change of strategy from running very diverse fleets. At KLM it bites the Airbus wide bodies and at Air France it will bite the Boeing wide bodies.
I think it is quite clear that the days of "big" wide bodies are over at AF, even the A350-1000 seems to be to big.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/air ... 81.article

That very article quotes Ben Smith as saying that the 787s are currently staying at AF.


You know the meaning of the word currently?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10517
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Very simple, the CEO talked about it. It was posted here in some thread. As much as it is logical for KLM to go all 787, as logical is it for Air France to go all A350 and if necessary add A330-900.
The point is a change of strategy from running very diverse fleets. At KLM it bites the Airbus wide bodies and at Air France it will bite the Boeing wide bodies.
I think it is quite clear that the days of "big" wide bodies are over at AF, even the A350-1000 seems to be to big.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/air ... 81.article

That very article quotes Ben Smith as saying that the 787s are currently staying at AF.


You know the meaning of the word currently?

You are the one saying that there indications that the 787s will be moved and not remained in the fleet. When asked what indications there are you are the one who provided an article where the CEO says they are currently remaining in the fleet (aka, no active plans at this time to move them) and that they provide good leverage at AF to negotiate for future fleet replacements. You are the one who is letting his bias get to him and warping that article to mean that there are “indications” that AF are moving the fleet to KLM in the near term-eg Ben Smith says they could be moved over the future, which you twist as an indication that they will (your original word) be moved over. As of now all AF has said is that the 10 787s are staying.
 
HIA350
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:51 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:48 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Makes a ton of sense.. The A359 can reach any destination AF fly's and is a drop in replacement for the 777Es and A340s. The 777W replacement will be interesting, but they still have a few years left.

1000
 
User avatar
ChrisNH38
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:53 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:12 pm

They've got three of these planes now, and by early 2020 (May, I think) they will take two of them to Boston every day. How many more will they get between now and then?
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:06 pm

Naincompetent wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
True, they will consider the A338, but historically AF has shied away from Rolls-Royce engines.


And that's why they are buying A350s powered by... what?


Yes indeed! AF is finally giving modern Rolls-Royce engines a try. I have no idea what took them so long.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
That very article quotes Ben Smith as saying that the 787s are currently staying at AF.


You know the meaning of the word currently?

You are the one saying that there indications that the 787s will be moved and not remained in the fleet. When asked what indications there are you are the one who provided an article where the CEO says they are currently remaining in the fleet (aka, no active plans at this time to move them) and that they provide good leverage at AF to negotiate for future fleet replacements. You are the one who is letting his bias get to him and warping that article to mean that there are “indications” that AF are moving the fleet to KLM in the near term-eg Ben Smith says they could be moved over the future, which you twist as an indication that they will (your original word) be moved over. As of now all AF has said is that the 10 787s are staying.


It is discussed to reduce the number of pilot pools. It is discussed to move the 787. It is said that currently the 787 will not move, that points to a temporary arrangement. All new 787 will not enter the FA fleet. It is a rather small fleet with a specialized pilot pool. In a big Airbus fleet.

I said indications, I did not say they will move tomorrow.

I do not know where you get the conviction that the 787 will stay looking at a slightly longer time frame.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10517
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:15 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

You know the meaning of the word currently?

You are the one saying that there indications that the 787s will be moved and not remained in the fleet. When asked what indications there are you are the one who provided an article where the CEO says they are currently remaining in the fleet (aka, no active plans at this time to move them) and that they provide good leverage at AF to negotiate for future fleet replacements. You are the one who is letting his bias get to him and warping that article to mean that there are “indications” that AF are moving the fleet to KLM in the near term-eg Ben Smith says they could be moved over the future, which you twist as an indication that they will (your original word) be moved over. As of now all AF has said is that the 10 787s are staying.


It is discussed to reduce the number of pilot pools. It is discussed to move the 787. It is said that currently the 787 will not move, that points to a temporary arrangement. All new 787 will not enter the FA fleet. It is a rather small fleet with a specialized pilot pool. In a big Airbus fleet.

I said indications, I did not say they will move tomorrow.

I do not know where you get the conviction that the 787 will stay looking at a slightly longer time frame.


It also says that it is possible in the future for the AF 787/777 to be a single pilot pool (as 777 fleet shrinks, 787 fleet possibly grows). IMO due to the size of the 777 fleet fleet, the age of some of them, and how long AF keeps their planes they will never get down to a single wide body pilot pool (A330/A350) before something else requiring new pilot type enters fleet
 
RalXWB
Posts: 499
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:23 pm

AF is building its future long haul Fleet around the 350 while decreasing its 787 Fleet to 10. Yet people Talk about a possibly growing 787 fleet. #anetlogic
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:08 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
You are the one saying that there indications that the 787s will be moved and not remained in the fleet. When asked what indications there are you are the one who provided an article where the CEO says they are currently remaining in the fleet (aka, no active plans at this time to move them) and that they provide good leverage at AF to negotiate for future fleet replacements. You are the one who is letting his bias get to him and warping that article to mean that there are “indications” that AF are moving the fleet to KLM in the near term-eg Ben Smith says they could be moved over the future, which you twist as an indication that they will (your original word) be moved over. As of now all AF has said is that the 10 787s are staying.


It is discussed to reduce the number of pilot pools. It is discussed to move the 787. It is said that currently the 787 will not move, that points to a temporary arrangement. All new 787 will not enter the FA fleet. It is a rather small fleet with a specialized pilot pool. In a big Airbus fleet.

I said indications, I did not say they will move tomorrow.

I do not know where you get the conviction that the 787 will stay looking at a slightly longer time frame.


It also says that it is possible in the future for the AF 787/777 to be a single pilot pool (as 777 fleet shrinks, 787 fleet possibly grows). IMO due to the size of the 777 fleet fleet, the age of some of them, and how long AF keeps their planes they will never get down to a single wide body pilot pool (A330/A350) before something else requiring new pilot type enters fleet


Air France will replace 10 rather young A380. That could show you that they are today prepared to get rid of young frames when they do not fit. They have now 35 A350-900 on order. There are 4 A340-300 to be replaced. 10 A380. What frames will the A350 replace than? I would guess the oldest 777, shrinking that pool.

My bet with you is, the moment KLM needs the next batch of wide bodies, they get the 10 AF 787 and AF will order A330-900 or A350.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:40 pm

RalXWB wrote:
AF is building its future long haul Fleet around the 350 while decreasing its 787 Fleet to 10. Yet people Talk about a possibly growing 787 fleet. #anetlogic

Hahaha, you are right. I think this is because people have begun to speculate what will replace the A332 fleet. To that, I say the following:

1. A332s are just now being refitted with lie-flat business class seats in 2-2-2 configuration, and also new premium economy seats (sadly still fixed shell type). This process started earlier this year and will end at some point during 2020. That means AF expects to keep the A332s for several years to come.

2. It is not inconceivable that AF might consider additional 789s to replace A332s when the time comes, but AF will also have to look at the A338/A339, the 788 (very unlikely in my opinion), and whatever Boeing fields in the next few years to bridge the gap between the 737-10 and the 788.

3. It is not inconceivable either that AF might find itself without a need for A332-sized aircraft in a few years. If travel demand increases, landing/take-off slots become scarcer, new technologies continue to improve fuel efficiency, and certain markets (i.e., city pairs) develop further, AF might end up needing to use a bigger aircraft on the current A332 routes (that would be the A359 or even the A339 or the 787-10). As an example, let's remember that when DL announced the A339 as a 763ER replacement for Euro-routes, many questioned why DL would be using a substantially larger plane, and DL explained that many 763ER routes actually have demand for larger planes and it was simply that DL didn't have enough 764s, A332s and A333s to rotate them on those routes.

4. The future of large airlines and airline groups includes mutliple metal.neutral joint ventures to cover different geographic regions/markets. If the need for an A332-sized replacement in a few years applies to only a small number of routes, AF might consider letting its joint venture partners operate those routes using their own A332s, A338s, 788s or 789s.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
FGITD
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:47 pm

I just don't see them transferring them to KLM. It's not as easy as just slapping a sticker over the side. Maybe they won't add more though and stick at 10.

If history plays any role, I think it's too early to eliminate any plans for Boeings. I wouldn't be that surprised if 350-1000s were ordered but as a longtime and very solid Boeing customer, you never know what sorts of tricks and negotiating can take place.

Though that of course works inversely with Airbus. Good deals etc to switch over.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: Air France orders additional A350s

Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:54 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Air France will replace 10 rather young A380. That could show you that they are today prepared to get rid of young frames when they do not fit.

Yes. The "when they don't fit" bit is key. We must not forget that:

a. The A380s are premium-heavy and refitting F, J and W classes with competitive products would have been ridiculously costly. Keeping them in their existing configuration would cause a lot of harm to the perception of AF; it would be anathema to their goal to feel, look and be premium. Refitting them would have been a terrible waste of money and a disservice to shareholders.
b. The A380s are quads, and they operate at a cost disadvantage vis-à-vis 77Ws, 779s and A35Ks. Ben Smith clearly was brought in to, among other things, cut costs. It is kind of obvious they had to go.
c. AF might be having trouble filling the A380s at the desired yield level. There are nine F-class seats and 80-ish J-class seats. Plus, a huge main deck of all Y seats (save for the nose where the F-class is located). How many seats are sold for the cheapest fares? How many seats are Y-to-W and W-to-J complimentary or cheap upgrades? I booked my first flight on an AF A380 in W and was upgraded for free to J. My only experience in F ever was with AF on the A380, and it was because the price of the J-to-F upgrade was too good not to take, so we decided to swipe the Amex. How many seats remain empty each flight or are filled at a loss?

On the other hand, look at the AF A332 workhorses. They are not exactly brand new and they are getting a new lease on life. AF is clearly not going to get rid of them any time soon.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos