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azjubilee
Posts: 3721
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:26 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Hawaiian won't have JetBlue so might be time for them to exit also.


HAL didn't serve LGB because of B6, so why would they exit as well? They used them for ground handling and some very limited connecting opportunities. LGB was by far more O&D driven. The connecting partnership is much stronger at LAX and looks to be more so with the announcement today. All indications were that LGB was quite successful for HAL pre-COVID serving its purpose in HAL's largest mainland market, the LA area. HAL is slowly building the network back and LGB isn't apart of the initial return to flying, but that doesn't mean they're walking away from the market either.
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3670
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:40 am

MDGLongBeach wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
WN will most likely apply for all 17 slots.
If awarded I see.
Increase
SMF +1 4>5
SJC +1 4>5
PHX +2 3>5
LAS 4 daily
DEN 2 daily
BWI 1 daily
MDW 2 daily
HNL 1 daily
OGG 1 daily
KOA 1 daily
HOU 1 daily

Flyguy


Seems a bit optimistic for LGB in the short term honestly.

On the other hand:
Everyone who's jumping to conclusions about HA and DL just dropping the airport is just ignorant, even in these times. Cuts to frequency are very likely to occur, but not a full on departure from the airport.

HA was reporting ~90% load factors in pre-covid times and picked up another slot for the rumored OGG service. Seemingly they are doing just fine here and I don't think having to contract services is a make or break here.

DL is the best performing airline at LGB, now that they have the SEA opening and B6 cutting the transcons, they could really make a nice little stand here. I'm fairing away from the use of "gold mine" as that term is an oxymoron whenever in relevance to LGB, but they have a decent opportunity here.. maybe not in the near future, but definitely something to look forward to in the distant.

Believe it or not, WN is losing the most, and is performing far worse than any other airline here. (excluding B6 now that they're gone)

SOURCE: http://www.longbeach.gov/globalassets/l ... er-updated


Finally...a post that makes some sense around here
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4798
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:47 am

Maybe wasn't there bread and butter but B6 definitely had some fans in Orange County to whom a trip up to LAX is not gonna happen now. If slots happened to open at SNA I wonder if b6 would consider some LAS hops? They have built that market and would certainly be welcomed by alot of people in the area? Long term maybe JFK and BOS are possible on A220 so the slots could prove valuable? I know it's a stretch but if slots open here they might have a chance to get in and keep some of those flyers and their brand relevant until the A220s roll into town? Just thinking maybe SNA makes more sense now to keep some of those flyers
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 217
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:29 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Maybe wasn't there bread and butter but B6 definitely had some fans in Orange County to whom a trip up to LAX is not gonna happen now. If slots happened to open at SNA I wonder if b6 would consider some LAS hops? They have built that market and would certainly be welcomed by alot of people in the area? Long term maybe JFK and BOS are possible on A220 so the slots could prove valuable? I know it's a stretch but if slots open here they might have a chance to get in and keep some of those flyers and their brand relevant until the A220s roll into town? Just thinking maybe SNA makes more sense now to keep some of those flyers


The loyal flyer base that B6 had at LGB is not large enough to constitute opening operations out of another 2nd LA market. It's obvious their focus now is mainly on LAX and more or less BUR and ONT. LGB fliers (being one myself) pledged loyalty to B6 because they flew out of **LGB**, I can guarantee you if they opened up SNA, the majority of what was the LGB fanbase isn't going to follow. If B6 was so concerned with maintaining the little they had here, they would've kept SLC and/or JFK. SLC could've been used as a connecting gateway to BOS/JFK if they desired to appeal to that niche but obviously JetBlue decided against that.

I would bet a good sum of money we wont see B6 back south of LAX in the LA Basin.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:29 am

MDGLongBeach wrote:
Everyone who's jumping to conclusions about HA and DL just dropping the airport is just ignorant, even in these times. Cuts to frequency are very likely to occur, but not a full on departure from the airport.

HA was reporting ~90% load factors in pre-covid times and picked up another slot for the rumored OGG service. Seemingly they are doing just fine here and I don't think having to contract services is a make or break here.


I agree that assumptions that HA will leave LGB because B6 is leaving are unfounded. If Hawaiian were relying on JetBlue connections then I would agree, but HA’s schedule didn’t allow for all that many. HA’s multiple daily LAX flights work much better for that.

One thing that stands out is that Hawaiian didn’t put the LGB flight back on the schedule along with the rest of their mainland network. I suspect they knew this was coming so know they need to line up a new ground handler. Plus they don’t really need the LGB flight now, demand will likely stay low enough that nearby LAX can absorb HA’s LGB traffic.
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 217
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am

hawaiian717 wrote:
I agree that assumptions that HA will leave LGB because B6 is leaving are unfounded. If Hawaiian were relying on JetBlue connections then I would agree, but HA’s schedule didn’t allow for all that many. HA’s multiple daily LAX flights work much better for that.

One thing that stands out is that Hawaiian didn’t put the LGB flight back on the schedule along with the rest of their mainland network. I suspect they knew this was coming so know they need to line up a new ground handler. Plus they don’t really need the LGB flight now, demand will likely stay low enough that nearby LAX can absorb HA’s LGB traffic.


HA is restarting LGB mid August with regular 1x daily service to HNL. LGB is a secondary airport and HAL being an airline that flies mostly to primary airports had other priorities. LAX will do for now until mi August.
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:07 am

MDGLongBeach wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
I agree that assumptions that HA will leave LGB because B6 is leaving are unfounded. If Hawaiian were relying on JetBlue connections then I would agree, but HA’s schedule didn’t allow for all that many. HA’s multiple daily LAX flights work much better for that.

One thing that stands out is that Hawaiian didn’t put the LGB flight back on the schedule along with the rest of their mainland network. I suspect they knew this was coming so know they need to line up a new ground handler. Plus they don’t really need the LGB flight now, demand will likely stay low enough that nearby LAX can absorb HA’s LGB traffic.


HA is restarting LGB mid August with regular 1x daily service to HNL. LGB is a secondary airport and HAL being an airline that flies mostly to primary airports had other priorities. LAX will do for now until mid August.
 
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hawaiian717
Posts: 3484
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:24 am

MDGLongBeach wrote:
HA is restarting LGB mid August with regular 1x daily service to HNL. LGB is a secondary airport and HAL being an airline that flies mostly to primary airports had other priorities. LAX will do for now until mi August.


The thing that stands out to me was that LGB just says “service suspended until August 15” while every other mainland market has at least a HNL flight with start date and flight number listed. So it seems like HA isn’t willing to publicly commit to a restart date for LGB. https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/ScheduleChanges.pdf
 
ScottB
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:48 pm

MavyWavyATR wrote:
I honestly don't blame B6 for leaving. Both LGB (airport) and the city of Long Beach as well as the NIMBY community did it to themselves.


Nope. B6 was going to leave -- or wind down service to almost nothing -- once enough gates opened up at LAX. Thanks to Covid, there are (or will be) enough gates at LAX and yields are better there. The news release touts the potential to grow at LAX to 70 daily flights and that was never going to be possible at LGB. They did exactly what I said they'd do three months ago:

ScottB wrote:
LGB's post-Covid-19 situation with B6 would be the same regardless of whether they had "stuck it out with B6." Does anyone realistically think B6 would be flying a bunch of empty flights to Mexico right now even with an FIS at LGB? Does anyone realistically think they would maintain a focus city at LGB -- even with good relations with the City Council -- if a half-dozen gates at LAX were to become available? Let's be real. B6 would jump on a sudden opportunity at LAX if it were to become available, and they'd fund the flying from their resources at LGB. Period, end of story.


B6 is becoming much more like a legacy carrier than a low-cost carrier, and as such they need to serve the primary airports.

jfklganyc wrote:
Short term, come October, LGB is going to be one quiet airport.


I think a lot of airports are going to be very quiet come October. But if WN is up to around 20 daily departures from LGB the airport will be roughly where it was a few years back before WN entered and B6 was underutilizing its slots -- just with a different set of destinations.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:26 pm

It's already Rumored that WN will use some temporary slots vacated by JetBlue to increase LGB service until they are awarded slots more permanent slots.

Mid September it will extend it's 1 temporary Sunday-Friday afternoon LGB-LAS flight until Oct 7th.
On Oct 8 WN will reinstate 3 daily LGB-LAS and 1 Daily LGB-DEN.
These are said to be also included into the Fall the November-January schedule as well.
Armchair executives speculate a schedule something like this.
Sunday-Friday.
LGB-LAS
07:00-08:10
12:15-13:25
17:25-18:35
LAS-LGB
09:00-10:10
14:00-15:10
19:20-20:50
LGB-DEN
10:50-14:30
DEN-LGB
15:10-16:50.
Saturday only.
LGB-DEN
06:50-10:40
14:05-17:45
DEN-LGB
11:40-13:20
18:45-20:25

All these flights are possible with the flexibility in the Covid environment schedule since WN is not using all of it's available aircraft in the Current fall schedule.

WN will temporarily be at 20 flights a day during the winter time at LGB.
With 5 daily RON aircraft.

LGB Facilities Rumor WN will takeover all available terminal office space and adjacent terminal office space for it's pending increase in staffing.

LGB Airlines Gate new assignments in October.
Hawaiian will use gates 2-3
Delta gates 4-5
American gate 6
Southwest gates 1, 7-10

The pending gate moves will generate more traffic to the airport vendors.

Again this is Rumor and speculation from friends at LGB. Same people who said JetBlue was dropping LGB in November. So take for what it's worth.
Remember WN has always been actively using temporary slots since it arrived in LGB. It has also put in every time for any and all available slots when things have opened up. WN is in the long game at LGB.
Flyguy
Last edited by wnflyguy on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3670
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:33 pm

MDGLongBeach wrote:
MDGLongBeach wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
I agree that assumptions that HA will leave LGB because B6 is leaving are unfounded. If Hawaiian were relying on JetBlue connections then I would agree, but HA’s schedule didn’t allow for all that many. HA’s multiple daily LAX flights work much better for that.

One thing that stands out is that Hawaiian didn’t put the LGB flight back on the schedule along with the rest of their mainland network. I suspect they knew this was coming so know they need to line up a new ground handler. Plus they don’t really need the LGB flight now, demand will likely stay low enough that nearby LAX can absorb HA’s LGB traffic.


HA is restarting LGB mid August with regular 1x daily service to HNL. LGB is a secondary airport and HAL being an airline that flies mostly to primary airports had other priorities. LAX will do for now until mid August.


No they are most certainly not coming back to LGB in mid-August...
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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hawaiian717
Posts: 3484
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:55 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
LGB Airlines Gate new assignments in October.
Hawaiian will use gates 2-3
Delta gates 4-5
American gate 6
Southwest gates 1, 7-10


These gate assignments don't really make much sense to me. Sure it's not that big an airport but it seems like it would make more sense to keep things closer together. It has Southwest and both ends of the airport and Delta split between the north and south concourses. How I might do it:

Delta gates 1-2 (south)
Hawaiian gates 3-4 (south)
American gate 5 (north)
Southwest gates 6-10 (north)
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:23 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
LGB Airlines Gate new assignments in October.
Hawaiian will use gates 2-3
Delta gates 4-5
American gate 6
Southwest gates 1, 7-10


These gate assignments don't really make much sense to me. Sure it's not that big an airport but it seems like it would make more sense to keep things closer together. It has Southwest and both ends of the airport and Delta split between the north and south concourses. How I might do it:

Delta gates 1-2 (south)
Hawaiian gates 3-4 (south)
American gate 5 (north)
Southwest gates 6-10 (north)


Ya I said the same thing.
The response was LGB airport wants to keep passenger movements to increase foot traffic for all the airport vendors.
Keep WN using gate 1 plus gates at the other end will generate revenue for all the airport vendors.
Hawaiians flight or flights depart only in the early morning hours.
Delta flights if stagnant at 2-5 will leave a void of passengers traffic at gates 1-2.
Delta will load gates 4/5 from gate 4 since they don't currently plan on any duel operations in the near future.

I said why don't they put AA at gate 1 have Southwest use gates 2,3,4 and 5,6
With Delta at gates 7,8.
And Hawaiian at gates 9,10.

Haven't gotten a reply yet.

But as always I post Rumors and speculation in good clean fun.

As for LGB I would like to see Spirit fill the JetBlue void vs all WN.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2002
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:41 pm

I know everyone is for Breeze possibly coming into the airport to fill the JetBlue void in October.
Unfortunately Breeze is Months if not a year away from actual start up.
They will still only be a airline on paper.
When LGB starts the reallocation of slots hopefully this year . Nobody is going to sit and let a new Startup gain than Much marketshare.
WN will bid for All the available slots to keep it's core SoCal strong hold in place.
Terminal Zero at LAX is at least 6 yrs away now with that current situation.

WN at SNA will probably see some slot additions with the abandonment from others like DL. But nothing like it was 2 to 3 yrs ago.
LGB helps fill in the combined South LAX and North SNA marketshare.

Of the 17 slots opening up I would be surprised if WN was awarded All of them.
Again I see someone else like Spirit coming in getting 8 or 9 of the 17 slots and WN getting the remaining.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
LGB Airlines Gate new assignments in October.
Hawaiian will use gates 2-3
Delta gates 4-5
American gate 6
Southwest gates 1, 7-10


These gate assignments don't really make much sense to me. Sure it's not that big an airport but it seems like it would make more sense to keep things closer together. It has Southwest and both ends of the airport and Delta split between the north and south concourses. How I might do it:

Delta gates 1-2 (south)
Hawaiian gates 3-4 (south)
American gate 5 (north)
Southwest gates 6-10 (north)


Ya I said the same thing.
The response was LGB airport wants to keep passenger movements to increase foot traffic for all the airport vendors.
Keep WN using gate 1 plus gates at the other end will generate revenue for all the airport vendors.
Hawaiians flight or flights depart only in the early morning hours.
Delta flights if stagnant at 2-5 will leave a void of passengers traffic at gates 1-2.
Delta will load gates 4/5 from gate 4 since they don't currently plan on any duel operations in the near future.

I said why don't they put AA at gate 1 have Southwest use gates 2,3,4 and 5,6
With Delta at gates 7,8.
And Hawaiian at gates 9,10.

Haven't gotten a reply yet.

But as always I post Rumors and speculation in good clean fun.

As for LGB I would like to see Spirit fill the JetBlue void vs all WN.

Flyguy

The preferred vendors are North, plus the restaurant/bar at the North part of the South concorse. WN would not want to be split and that is a reasonable demand.

HA is early morning, so they get leftovers.

DL and AA probably both wanted the North concorse. It makes sense only one wins.

The airport doesn't have enough traffic for all vendors. In effect, they have picked the survivors.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:45 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
MDGLongBeach wrote:
MDGLongBeach wrote:


HA is restarting LGB mid August with regular 1x daily service to HNL. LGB is a secondary airport and HAL being an airline that flies mostly to primary airports had other priorities. LAX will do for now until mid August.


No they are most certainly not coming back to LGB in mid-August...

Is HA returning to LGB? A serious question.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:50 pm

lightsaber wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
MDGLongBeach wrote:

HA is restarting LGB mid August with regular 1x daily service to HNL. LGB is a secondary airport and HAL being an airline that flies mostly to primary airports had other priorities. LAX will do for now until mid August.


No they are most certainly not coming back to LGB in mid-August...

Is HA returning to LGB? A serious question.

Lightsaber

According to LGB sources HA expected to return in October with a daily flight to HNL.
OGG is expected to start before the Thanksgiving break.

Delta hasn't said what it plans to do with all its slots other than 5 daily SLC flights come this winter.

Speculation is AA May use temporary slots to increase LGB-PHX to fight the WN invasion.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3670
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
MDGLongBeach wrote:

HA is restarting LGB mid August with regular 1x daily service to HNL. LGB is a secondary airport and HAL being an airline that flies mostly to primary airports had other priorities. LAX will do for now until mid August.


No they are most certainly not coming back to LGB in mid-August...

Is HA returning to LGB? A serious question.

Lightsaber


Yes they are...

The biggest driver of this whole thing is really what Hawaii wants to continue do with the 14-day quarantine and the (poorly conceived) plan of requiring a negative test upon arrival to avoid it. Mind you, the plan to require a test via a CVS partnership was announced on June 24th, and as of today, there are still no details on how to go about doing it. I wouldn't be shocked at this point to see the State of Hawaii roll plans backwards given the resurgence of infections in California, in particular...
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:44 pm

asteriskceo wrote:
To those making this a liberal/conservative thing:

John Wayne airport, in republican Orange County has much heavier fines and even a stricter curfew, yet the airlines there manage to follow the rules. I’m very sad to see JetBlue leave, but to blame the mayor and city council is disingenuous. They are representing the constituents in their districts, and those constituents are extremely anti-noise.

I don’t agree with NIMBY-ism, but it’s a byproduct of a functioning democracy.

Wishing the best of luck to JetBlue at LAX.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While I agree with everything you said in your post I think the dealbreaker for B6 was the denial of the FIS. I don’t recall a good reason for not moving forward with it. The FIS was not going to add flights, B6 wanted to run 3 daily flights ( MEX,GDL and PJD) IIRC. Those flights would’ve still been subject to daily slot usage, so there be no additional flying and some of the cost of the facility would’ve been paid for by the carriers using it, which at the time would only have been B6. TBH, I feel B6 management could’ve done some better lobbying instead of relying on crew members as much as they did but they were genuinely shocked when the vote came in and was not even close. I think this was the last chance for exchanging some of the unused, unprofitable slots to something that could make $, at least in B6s eyes.
I don’t blame the city or airport for the curfew but it definitely seemed to take on a different tone after the FIS failure. I think both B6 and LGB are probably fine with their decisions and maybe both won’t regret this in the future, but the future can be tricky as we are seeing right now.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7061
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:50 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked at this point to see the State of Hawaii roll plans backwards given the resurgence of infections in California, in particular...


Yep with California being one of the Covid hotspots right now, I can't see Hawaii dropping the 14-day quarantine until infections in California are under control. That will take at least a month to become apparent, if it does.
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:17 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
The thing that stands out to me was that LGB just says “service suspended until August 15” while every other mainland market has at least a HNL flight with start date and flight number listed. So it seems like HA isn’t willing to publicly commit to a restart date for LGB. https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/ScheduleChanges.pdf


Interesting, I missed this. I too now am curious to see how HA will handle LGB in the short term future. I expected a quick return to service as they have been doing with other airports. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

wnflyguy wrote:
It's already Rumored that WN will use some temporary slots vacated by JetBlue to increase LGB service until they are awarded slots more permanent slots.

Mid September it will extend it's 1 temporary Sunday-Friday afternoon LGB-LAS flight until Oct 7th.
On Oct 8 WN will reinstate 3 daily LGB-LAS and 1 Daily LGB-DEN.
These are said to be also included into the Fall the November-January schedule as well.
Armchair executives speculate a schedule something like this.
Sunday-Friday.
LGB-LAS
07:00-08:10
12:15-13:25
17:25-18:35
LAS-LGB
09:00-10:10
14:00-15:10
19:20-20:50
LGB-DEN
10:50-14:30
DEN-LGB
15:10-16:50.
Saturday only.
LGB-DEN
06:50-10:40
14:05-17:45
DEN-LGB
11:40-13:20
18:45-20:25


This actually makes sense. B6's and DL's departure from the LGB-LAS market means WN can completely capitalize and it's a good opportunity for them to monopolize. Though, I also think this situation leaves room for a NK or G4 entry to the market for some of that market share as well. I've always been spectacle of DEN flights because F9 failed that market with E190s, and WN was throwing 737s on it on a tri-weekly basis iirc so a daily flight warrants hesitation. Though, in this time where LGB has a lack of viable LCC servicing central US connecting airports to the East Coast with B6s departure, it may end up being a good deal for WN.

wnflyguy wrote:
Speculation is AA May use temporary slots to increase LGB-PHX to fight the WN invasion.


AA is already an unhappy tenant here at LGB with all the fines, and it's already been discussed that they don't value LGB that much and probably won't try to compete on a route that was already performing marginally. Considering that WN has 3x 737 on the route and AAL has 3x CRJ9... they'll have to upgrade to a US Airways Era mainline a319 service if they have any chance at having a decent market share.

wnflyguy wrote:
I know everyone is for Breeze possibly coming into the airport to fill the JetBlue void in October.
Unfortunately Breeze is Months if not a year away from actual start up.
They will still only be a airline on paper.
When LGB starts the reallocation of slots hopefully this year . Nobody is going to sit and let a new Startup gain than Much marketshare.
WN will bid for All the available slots to keep it's core SoCal strong hold in place.
Terminal Zero at LAX is at least 6 yrs away now with that current situation.

WN at SNA will probably see some slot additions with the abandonment from others like DL. But nothing like it was 2 to 3 yrs ago.
LGB helps fill in the combined South LAX and North SNA marketshare.

Of the 17 slots opening up I would be surprised if WN was awarded All of them.
Again I see someone else like Spirit coming in getting 8 or 9 of the 17 slots and WN getting the remaining.

Flyguy


LGB makes almost too much sense for Breeze as it's their ideal type of airport: secondary airport in a primary airport market. Like I said above a NK or G4 entrance is very likely as the LGB-LAS is completely monopolized by WN now so it would make sense for either to make an opportunistic jump into the market. I have to agree with the continuing premise that any slot not taken by another airline will be sucked up by WN, their intentions are clear and they want to expand.

Planeboy17 wrote:
While I agree with everything you said in your post I think the dealbreaker for B6 was the denial of the FIS. I don’t recall a good reason for not moving forward with it. The FIS was not going to add flights, B6 wanted to run 3 daily flights ( MEX,GDL and PJD) IIRC. Those flights would’ve still been subject to daily slot usage, so there be no additional flying and some of the cost of the facility would’ve been paid for by the carriers using it, which at the time would only have been B6. TBH, I feel B6 management could’ve done some better lobbying instead of relying on crew members as much as they did but they were genuinely shocked when the vote came in and was not even close. I think this was the last chance for exchanging some of the unused, unprofitable slots to something that could make $, at least in B6s eyes.
I don’t blame the city or airport for the curfew but it definitely seemed to take on a different tone after the FIS failure. I think both B6 and LGB are probably fine with their decisions and maybe both won’t regret this in the future, but the future can be tricky as we are seeing right now.


Honestly, an FIS would've really prolonged the inevitable. I don't see any viable international routes from LGB that could've carried B6's profitability here. Especially considering the lack of presence B6 has in Mexico specifically.
 
StinkyPinky
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:36 pm

When does B6 have to legally surrender the slots? Can't they technically hold onto them until the last possible moment?
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 pm

StinkyPinky wrote:
When does B6 have to legally surrender the slots? Can't they technically hold onto them until the last possible moment?

From what I have heard JetBlue officially notified the Airport this time of the end of service on the Day of the Announcement.
I believe officials rental leases end on October 31 2020.
LGB will be able to start the 30 day reallocation process on September 6th. This gives Current tenants and new tenants time to submit applications for slots. With awards made in early October. New Slot award are given a 3 month grace period to market,sale and start up.
If More slots are bid for than the Number available. First round of 2 each will be awarded and the remaining slots will go into a lottery for additional awards.
This reallocation process can be moved up if JetBlue enters submission hard date Of vacating clause.
As of now they're planning on returning all the slots on October 7. But 180 days out JetBlue has the legal rights to cancel the end date of LGB service. They will be required to fly minimum service levels under the current agreement.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
MDGLongBeach
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:33 pm

Update: http://www.longbeach.gov/press-releases ... ting-list/

LGB acknowledges the 17 slots being released by B6 and will soon make the lottery available. Current waitlist members are Delta, Hawaiian and Southwest. Keep in mind that this pool is separate from the earlier pool this year where all three carriers got some slots to add to their network. These are JETBLUES now available slots.. just to make that clear.

"One slot will be offered to each of the airlines, in addition to any new entrants, in order until all the slots are allocated.Once a slot becomes available, the airport has 30 days to allocate the slot to the requesting carrier."

MDG

EDIT: this is also the opportunity, as I originally forgot to mention, for any new carriers to try to take a shot at the LGB slot pool, and if a new carrier decides to come to LGB they will be automatically allocated slots as per regulations.
 
nine4nine
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:44 pm

My prediction is WN picks up 5 of the 17. The other 12 just sit unused. No HA or DL adds and no new entrants.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:05 am

MDGLongBeach wrote:
Update: http://www.longbeach.gov/press-releases ... ting-list/

LGB acknowledges the 17 slots being released by B6 and will soon make the lottery available. Current waitlist members are Delta, Hawaiian and Southwest. Keep in mind that this pool is separate from the earlier pool this year where all three carriers got some slots to add to their network. These are JETBLUES now available slots.. just to make that clear.

"One slot will be offered to each of the airlines, in addition to any new entrants, in order until all the slots are allocated.Once a slot becomes available, the airport has 30 days to allocate the slot to the requesting carrier."

MDG

EDIT: this is also the opportunity, as I originally forgot to mention, for any new carriers to try to take a shot at the LGB slot pool, and if a new carrier decides to come to LGB they will be automatically allocated slots as per regulations.


During this upcoming lottery each airline will be awarded one Slot Each.
During the first round the airline can accept or pass on the awarded slot.
If or when a Airline passes on a awarded slot they Will automatically taken out of the slot lottery in process. Then must reapply to be added back to the wait list. The remaining Airline or Airlines will continue the current lottery until all slots have been awarded.
If All slots are not filled during the lottery they go into a pool and are available to any airline or airlines that requests Additional slots.
If no slots are available an airline or airlines can be put on a waiting list for when slots become available.

Sounds like JetBlue did officially signed away all it's slot and holdings to LGB yesterday . Giving LGB legal rights to reallocate the slots before B6 ends it's LGB operations.
But as of right now B6 is barely flying a complete schedule Into LGB up to Oct 6 anyway.
So Technically under the LGB slot allocation Plan a 180 days out to Oct 6 an airline or airlines can increase it's flying well before JetBlue leaves LGB.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:15 am

Honestly probably a good move for the airport to do this slot lottery sooner than later.

1. They want to see useage sooner than later and how bad or good it looks
2.if the slots don't all get used they can pass this off and blame covid

Hard to see Hawaiian wanting a second slot. The airport would be super lucky if they stay period. I know the flight did well but that's because of the large JetBlue ff base in the area who liked to be able to redeem and earn miles. The situation will be totally different now for Hawaiian in long Beach. I think JetBlue even did all the airport services for them iirc so that alone might make them vacate also.

Delta might want to add sea now as it will be an unserved route. LAS was doing terrible they can use those slots. I doubt delta wants more slots. Hard to see then using what they already have awarded.

Really comes down to how much southwest wants. They own all the winning cards.

AA doesnt really need long beach but I really hope they stay.

Given the fire financial situation every airline is in and no end in sight , seems unlikely an airline would want to go in. Frontier is the only airline I can see trying it, but they service SNA and LAX from Denver and tried long beach one before. The airfares to both are very low already from den. Unless the airport offered large incentives what do they gain from this except alot of work , I don't see long beach slots in the future having the value they did a few years ago when JetBlue and delta just wanted more and couldn't get enough . Southwest isn't creating a focus city it's just a spoke they are gonna have alot of slots coming their way in any scenario but they don't want too many and fly empty planes to keep them. Does anyone have southwest's load factors prior to covid?
 
MDGLongBeach
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:29 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Honestly probably a good move for the airport to do this slot lottery sooner than later.

1. They want to see useage sooner than later and how bad or good it looks
2.if the slots don't all get used they can pass this off and blame covid

Hard to see Hawaiian wanting a second slot. The airport would be super lucky if they stay period. I know the flight did well but that's because of the large JetBlue ff base in the area who liked to be able to redeem and earn miles. The situation will be totally different now for Hawaiian in long Beach. I think JetBlue even did all the airport services for them iirc so that alone might make them vacate also.

Delta might want to add sea now as it will be an unserved route. LAS was doing terrible they can use those slots. I doubt delta wants more slots. Hard to see then using what they already have awarded.

Really comes down to how much southwest wants. They own all the winning cards.

AA doesnt really need long beach but I really hope they stay.

Given the fire financial situation every airline is in and no end in sight , seems unlikely an airline would want to go in. Frontier is the only airline I can see trying it, but they service SNA and LAX from Denver and tried long beach one before. The airfares to both are very low already from den. Unless the airport offered large incentives what do they gain from this except alot of work , I don't see long beach slots in the future having the value they did a few years ago when JetBlue and delta just wanted more and couldn't get enough . Southwest isn't creating a focus city it's just a spoke they are gonna have alot of slots coming their way in any scenario but they don't want too many and fly empty planes to keep them. Does anyone have southwest's load factors prior to covid?



- First of all, the airport is probably loving COVID right among these circumstances, they keep making more excuses for not being a viable business.
- Hawaiian actually has two slots, one originally and then another one that they got earlier this year in which they planned OGG service. If they were to get a slot this time around, it would be #3.
- Delta already has 3 outstanding slots from the earlier JetBlue downsizing this year, but the usage requirements were waived because of COVID. DAL will probably drop some slots but keep 2 from LAS for the SEA service... and if we're lucky, maybe 1 for ATL as rumored pre-covid.
- I think this time around, with the slot pool opening once again among B6's departure, WN's slot uptake will be a key indicator of future activity here at LGB. If they are as aggressive as they seemingly have been, it's fair to assume they'll be sucking up a majority if not all these slots. If they only take a few slots, then it may show LGB having a long, painful, dwindling road ahead.
- AA doesn't need LGB, and in light of SWA adding 3x a day 737 service to PHX.. I don't see them lasting here much longer as they'll have a small percentage of the market share and the route wont be viable, especially since they're only going to be throwing CRJ9s on the route. If AA truly wants to defend their PHX turf here, they'll have to upgrade the service to a more competitive plane but I don't' see that happening.
- Pre-COVID WN was getting ~75-80% LFs here. By far the worst of any airline here, by at least 7-10% depending on the month. (not keeping in mind B6 now considering they're leaving, B6 was about the same ballpark as WN, though we might see an increase for WN as some of the same markets being shared with B6 are no longer competed, like NorCal and LAS)
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:50 pm

So reading the complete Slot allocation for LGB. Once a airline returns permanent slots with a official submission End of service.
The airport can immediately reallocate the slots to all airlines or airline on the list. This will give awards airlines time to market and sale pending service.
WN could be a big beneficiary from this if both DL and HA pass on additional slots during the first round. By default WN would automatically get all 17 slots.
But late yesterday Breeze filed it's application to buy Compass operating certificates with a start up date for October 2020. They will operate first off as public scheduled charter service until 2021. Dave N was quoted saying with the sudden departure of JetBlue from LGB Breeze will most likely take part In the slot lottery.
Now they need the court's approval of the certification first before their legally allowed to submit for slots.
Question is how quickly are the airlines on the list wanting to get access to open slots. To keep Breeze away they can push for immediate reallocation under the airports plan. But if no pressure is being done by the parties on the list. Breeze could have time to come in and get some slots.

Worst case for Breeze is they get a minimum of 5 slots.
Or if Only going against WN the max would be 9 slots and WN getting 8.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:29 pm

Well another rumor is Amazon Prime air cargo will also be requesting slots at LGB airport.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:45 pm

ScottB wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked at this point to see the State of Hawaii roll plans backwards given the resurgence of infections in California, in particular...


Yep with California being one of the Covid hotspots right now, I can't see Hawaii dropping the 14-day quarantine until infections in California are under control. That will take at least a month to become apparent, if it does.

Amazingly we (California, in particular LA county) are avoiding the news despite having a really bad spike:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... alifornia/

However, California updates their information right before midnight Greenwich mean time, so unless you are looking right then, the updates show a blank for new cases. I keep a tracking spreadsheet and oh boy, LA county's cases are spiking (where i live).

When the government is warning there are only 113 empty icu beds in LA county, I think that is important:
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/los ... 05429.html

This 95% capacity (2200 ICU beds in the county per this link):
https://www.dailynews.com/2020/03/17/la ... cials-say/

So if I were Hawaii, I'd be paranoid of Californians. But no one has so much vacation to waste 2 weeks in quarantine. It isn't worth paying Hawaii costs to stay inside.

Hence why I questioned earlier HA's plans at LGB.

This lottery will be fascinating. I do wonder if Amazon will go for a few slots.

LIghtsaber
Winter is coming.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:25 pm

lightsaber wrote:
ScottB wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked at this point to see the State of Hawaii roll plans backwards given the resurgence of infections in California, in particular...


Yep with California being one of the Covid hotspots right now, I can't see Hawaii dropping the 14-day quarantine until infections in California are under control. That will take at least a month to become apparent, if it does.

Amazingly we (California, in particular LA county) are avoiding the news despite having a really bad spike:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... alifornia/

However, California updates their information right before midnight Greenwich mean time, so unless you are looking right then, the updates show a blank for new cases. I keep a tracking spreadsheet and oh boy, LA county's cases are spiking (where i live).

When the government is warning there are only 113 empty icu beds in LA county, I think that is important:
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/los ... 05429.html

This 95% capacity (2200 ICU beds in the county per this link):
https://www.dailynews.com/2020/03/17/la ... cials-say/

So if I were Hawaii, I'd be paranoid of Californians. But no one has so much vacation to waste 2 weeks in quarantine. It isn't worth paying Hawaii costs to stay inside.

Hence why I questioned earlier HA's plans at LGB.

This lottery will be fascinating. I do wonder if Amazon will go for a few slots.

LIghtsaber

Amazon is said to be looking at getting some slots to support it's Orange County disruption center. SNA is so restrictive in access and airports limited available ramp space.
LGB Flights would cut the travel time in Half for shipments to Orange County. The addition of LGB would have little impact on it's planned SBA distribution center.
LGB has A lot of land under it's ownership to accommodate such an investment.
While I'm all for WN grabbing more slots.
Amazon would add jobs to Long Beach residents.
Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
MDGLongBeach
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:29 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
Amazon is said to be looking at getting some slots to support it's Orange County disruption center. SNA is so restrictive in access and airports limited available ramp space.
LGB Flights would cut the travel time in Half for shipments to Orange County. The addition of LGB would have little impact on it's planned SBA distribution center.
LGB has A lot of land under it's ownership to accommodate such an investment.
While I'm all for WN grabbing more slots.
Amazon would add jobs to Long Beach residents.
Flyguy


I would love to see that blue livery over here. Especially if it'd take up some slots that may not be taken up by passenger carriers. Also, I was interested in what you said about Breeze earlier. They have an interest in LGB? Hasn't Neeleman learned his lesson? Where did he say anything regarding Breeze and LGB? Just curious.

- MDG
 
brabb12
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:44 am

wnflyguy wrote:

Amazon is said to be looking at getting some slots to support it's Orange County disruption center. SNA is so restrictive in access and airports limited available ramp space.
LGB Flights would cut the travel time in Half for shipments to Orange County. The addition of LGB would have little impact on it's planned SBA distribution center.
LGB has A lot of land under it's ownership to accommodate such an investment.
While I'm all for WN grabbing more slots.
Amazon would add jobs to Long Beach residents.
Flyguy



What's your source on Amazon looking at some slots for SNA? Very curious to see this actually happen. I have always felt that SNA could easily handle a little more cargo operations along with LGB.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:58 am

Amazon seems like it would make alot of sense for Long Beach. Would hate to see passenger service get lost, but Amazon does make sense.

Long Beach is the anti SNA there is land and space. SNA is so cramped. Besides actual land and space the runway is 4,300 feet longer which has to be a good thing,
 
StinkyPinky
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:11 pm

I would love for Amazon to start some B767 and 777F cargo flights into LGB and see the look on all those NIMBYs faces that didn't want FIS because that would bring in the "international jumbo jets."
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:33 pm

StinkyPinky wrote:
I would love for Amazon to start some B767 and 777F cargo flights into LGB and see the look on all those NIMBYs faces that didn't want FIS because that would bring in the "international jumbo jets."


Amazons international China feed to LGB would require a ANC or HNL CBP stop inbound.
But if they do take part in the Slot allocation it will be nice to see larger aircraft landing at the airport.
The NIMBYS are going to love that hahahahaha.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:39 pm

LGB hasn't had this many available slots since the arrival of JetBlue. Now with the popularity of buying online Home deliveries I wouldn't be surprised if FedEx and UPS requested additional slot also.
UPS has a nice facility between Spring Street and Lakewood BLVD that could easily handle more traffic.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
WNagent310
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:16 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
I know everyone is for Breeze possibly coming into the airport to fill the JetBlue void in October.
Unfortunately Breeze is Months if not a year away from actual start up.
They will still only be a airline on paper.
When LGB starts the reallocation of slots hopefully this year . Nobody is going to sit and let a new Startup gain than Much marketshare.
WN will bid for All the available slots to keep it's core SoCal strong hold in place.
Terminal Zero at LAX is at least 6 yrs away now with that current situation.

WN at SNA will probably see some slot additions with the abandonment from others like DL. But nothing like it was 2 to 3 yrs ago.
LGB helps fill in the combined South LAX and North SNA marketshare.

Of the 17 slots opening up I would be surprised if WN was awarded All of them.
Again I see someone else like Spirit coming in getting 8 or 9 of the 17 slots and WN getting the remaining.

Flyguy


I would like to add that from the inside scoop at LAWA, Terminal or “Concourse 0” as well as Terminal 9 are shelved until further notice. All future contracts have been terminated due to budget cuts for the time being. Concourse 0 and T9 will not be built in time for the 28’ olympics as planned unfortunately.

On the other hand, I’m glad WN is seriously considering taking up all or most available slots. Gonna help free up a lot of capacity here at LAX. Especially in the cargo department. Past couple weeks we have been slammed with cargo shipments on our aircraft even and on cases running out of room in our cargo bins with a light pax load. LGB will solidify WN as the go-to SoCal short to medium haul domestic carrier with tons of frequency and a network to reach most of everything domestically.

Also happy for B6 at LAX. Really do love there product on offer and is a welcome addition to LAX.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:55 pm

I wonder if there is even a purpose for a LGB airport going forward. City council doesn’t do it any favors, the NIMBYs are against it, JetBlue is what really put it on the map and now they’re gone. As mentioned, the area and demographics that LGB is around doesn’t attract high yielding passengers as they just go to LAX and SNA. Sounds like WN isn’t really making money either. It’s situated between SNA and LAX which can handle the passengers.

Just curious if others have thought this too or what their opinions are.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:15 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
I wonder if there is even a purpose for a LGB airport going forward. City council doesn’t do it any favors, the NIMBYs are against it, JetBlue is what really put it on the map and now they’re gone. As mentioned, the area and demographics that LGB is around doesn’t attract high yielding passengers as they just go to LAX and SNA. Sounds like WN isn’t really making money either. It’s situated between SNA and LAX which can handle the passengers.

Just curious if others have thought this too or what their opinions are.

I love and prefer LGB. However, the city fought JetBlue when it could have been more.

I cannot personally understand why the yield is so poor. Hopefully network airlines can make more of an impact than East Coast based JetBlue.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Newark727
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:49 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
I wonder if there is even a purpose for a LGB airport going forward. City council doesn’t do it any favors, the NIMBYs are against it, JetBlue is what really put it on the map and now they’re gone. As mentioned, the area and demographics that LGB is around doesn’t attract high yielding passengers as they just go to LAX and SNA. Sounds like WN isn’t really making money either. It’s situated between SNA and LAX which can handle the passengers.

Just curious if others have thought this too or what their opinions are.


Perhaps not at the moment, but SNA is too hemmed in to grow all that much, and as LAX's passenger facilities expand, it may be worthwhile to have another place for business jets and freight to go in the future. Even general aviation - there's a ton of flight training that goes on at LGB and I'm not sure where it would all go otherwise.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:13 pm

Newark727 wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
I wonder if there is even a purpose for a LGB airport going forward. City council doesn’t do it any favors, the NIMBYs are against it, JetBlue is what really put it on the map and now they’re gone. As mentioned, the area and demographics that LGB is around doesn’t attract high yielding passengers as they just go to LAX and SNA. Sounds like WN isn’t really making money either. It’s situated between SNA and LAX which can handle the passengers.

Just curious if others have thought this too or what their opinions are.


Perhaps not at the moment, but SNA is too hemmed in to grow all that much, and as LAX's passenger facilities expand, it may be worthwhile to have another place for business jets and freight to go in the future. Even general aviation - there's a ton of flight training that goes on at LGB and I'm not sure where it would all go otherwise.


Would be interesting to see LGB turn into a cargo only airport. FEDEX, UPS, Amazon, DHL, All Nippon Cargo, Lufthansa Cargo, and all those cargo divisions within the major world airlines would all have to be on board in order to make it worth anything. And I agree, LAX probably would need to be at a point where changes such as aircraft movements need to be reduced due to it getting too crowded.
 
jplatts
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:48 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
I wonder if there is even a purpose for a LGB airport going forward. City council doesn’t do it any favors, the NIMBYs are against it, JetBlue is what really put it on the map and now they’re gone. As mentioned, the area and demographics that LGB is around doesn’t attract high yielding passengers as they just go to LAX and SNA. Sounds like WN isn’t really making money either. It’s situated between SNA and LAX which can handle the passengers.

Just curious if others have thought this too or what their opinions are.


Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN out of the 5 Greater Los Angeles airports in 2019:
BUR - 4291408 passengers, 5936915 seats, 72.28% load factor
LAX - 9639932 passengers, 11950076 seats, 80.67% load factor
LGB - 1108833 passengers, 1450654 seats, 76.44% load factor
ONT - 2821844 passengers, 3622731 seats, 77.89% load factor
SNA - 3446764 passengers, 4138230 seats, 83.29% load factor

WN re-adding LGB-DEN nonstop service is certainly a possibility as
(a) WN had operated daily nonstop service to LGB from DEN in Summer 2019,
(b) DEN is one of the top destinations not currently served nonstop from LGB,
(c) WN had a load factor of 82.09% on DEN-LGB in the June 2019 - September 2019 time period, and
(d) WN is able to offer connections to most of WN's destinations in the Midwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, and Southeast from LGB through DEN.

WN also currently operates LGB-LAS nonstop service, where passengers can connect to some WN destinations in the Mountain West, Southwest, Midwest, South, Northeast, and Mid-Atlantic.

Demand for WN service out of LGB will also likely increase once demand for domestic air travel returns with WN being able to offer 1-stop connectivity to more markets in the Mountain West, Southwest, Midwest, South, Northeast, and Mid-Atlantic from LGB with its LGB-LAS/PHX adds.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:14 pm

jplatts wrote:
Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN out of the 5 Greater Los Angeles airports in 2019:
BUR - 4291408 passengers, 5936915 seats, 72.28% load factor
LAX - 9639932 passengers, 11950076 seats, 80.67% load factor
LGB - 1108833 passengers, 1450654 seats, 76.44% load factor
ONT - 2821844 passengers, 3622731 seats, 77.89% load factor
SNA - 3446764 passengers, 4138230 seats, 83.29% load factor

(d) WN is able to offer connections to most of WN's destinations in the Midwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, and Southeast from LGB through DEN.


The numbers are fine, thanks - but they don't speak to fare levels and why WN should grow LGB relative to other SoCal airports.

Connections thru DEN aren't a winning strategy - LBG-intenders can just drive to LAX and get a non-stop, more destinations, and fare competition. WN should focus on LGB short-haul destinations where people will pay for convenience. That may not be a long list when they need to fill 737-700s.
 
jplatts
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Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The numbers are fine, thanks - but they don't speak to fare levels and why WN should grow LGB relative to other SoCal airports.

Connections thru DEN aren't a winning strategy - LBG-intenders can just drive to LAX and get a non-stop, more destinations, and fare competition. WN should focus on LGB short-haul destinations where people will pay for convenience. That may not be a long list when they need to fill 737-700s.


I agree with your point, even though there are some passengers who are willing to connect from LGB to a destination that already has nonstop service out of LAX.

In Q3 2019, there was an average of over 800 passengers a day making connections between DCA and beyond-DCA perimeter destinations on WN, even with WN serving most of the major beyond-DCA perimeter markets nonstop from BWI.

There were also some passengers connecting to beyond-perimeter destinations from LGA on WN (even prior to WN pulling out of EWR), even though WN did have nonstop service out of EWR to a few beyond-LGA perimeter destinations such as AUS, OAK, PHX, and SAN prior to WN pulling out of EWR.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:51 am

StinkyPinky wrote:
I would love for Amazon to start some B767 and 777F cargo flights into LGB and see the look on all those NIMBYs faces that didn't want FIS because that would bring in the "international jumbo jets."

Amazon has no 777s.

Would be interesting to see LGB turn into a cargo only airport. FEDEX, UPS, Amazon, DHL, All Nippon Cargo, Lufthansa Cargo, and all those cargo divisions within the major world airlines would all have to be on board in order to make it worth anything. And I agree, LAX probably would need to be at a point where changes such as aircraft movements need to be reduced due to it getting too crowded.[/quote][quote="StinkyPinky"]

It would be difficult for long range cargo ops due to the displaced threshold for 30. They don’t list the max T/O or landing weights are for a 747 on the Jeppessen chart. The highest they go is MD11 or C17. That may not necessarily reject the 747 but I think NCA or Lufthansa is out of the question with their ops at LAX.
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24712
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:35 am

No one will make LGB a cargo hub.

The airport does not even have a cargo warehouse, let alone the rest of infrastructure like customs, brokers etc. UPS/FedEx today simply truck in prebuilt ULDs to load on the aircraft.

Amazon is spending $200mil building a regional air hub at San Bernardino >> viewtopic.php?t=1438195

Meanwhile folks like NCA, LH Cargo have big warehouse facilities and investments at LAX an airport that is 24/7 without any operations restrictions. Zero need to move.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
atcanobbio
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:06 am

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:47 am

if B6 starts MEX from LAX, i wonder if they'll put MINT on the route. thoughts?
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Long Beach (LGB) increasing number of air carrier slots

Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:30 pm

LAXintl wrote:
No one will make LGB a cargo hub.

The airport does not even have a cargo warehouse, let alone the rest of infrastructure like customs, brokers etc. UPS/FedEx today simply truck in prebuilt ULDs to load on the aircraft.

Amazon is spending $200mil building a regional air hub at San Bernardino >> viewtopic.php?t=1438195

Meanwhile folks like NCA, LH Cargo have big warehouse facilities and investments at LAX an airport that is 24/7 without any operations restrictions. Zero need to move.


Amazon is not looking At building a Mega cargo Hub but more of a cargo regional feed to its Orange country and South Bay distribution warehouses.
The centrally location of LGB will feed Amazons short term needs.
I wouldn't expect anything more than 4 or 6 flights max if the Speculation is true.
SBA will still be it main 24hr mega processing warehouse.

According to LGB sources WN is pressing the airport for a quick reallocation process since it's willing to add back plus bring in some new and additional service to the airport Vs playing the Temporary unused slot game it has been doing since it's arrival into LGB.

If WN gets more slots I'd use the marketing spin line this. "Hey Long Beach Someone jetting from you and making you feeling BLUE in October? Well Don't worry Southwest is bringing you something MORE TO LUV from Long Beach in October with new daily flights starting to ECT ECT ECT!"

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
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