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aa777jfklhr
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UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:05 pm

Today marks the 59th anniversary of UA flight 826 a DC8 operating ORD-JFK and TW flight 266 a L1046 operating DAY-CMH-LGA. These two aircraft collided over the densely populated borough of Brooklyn. The UA aircraft crashed in Park Slope, Brooklyn while the TW aircraft made it across the harbor and crashed in Staten Island. All were killed on both aircraft.

Does anyone have any memories of this?
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codc10
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:17 pm

Tangentially related, the flight number UA826 was not a good one for UA, as that was also the number of the December 1997 clear air turbulence incident en route NRT-HNL in which a passenger died. UA826 is among a dozen or so flight numbers no longer in use.

In a sad irony, part of the the UA DC-8 crashed into the "Pillar of Fire" church in Brooklyn, destroying it.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:31 pm

So sad. There was one survivor who died the next day, an 11yr old boy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_New_ ... _collision
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ojjunior
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:52 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
So sad. There was one survivor who died the next day, an 11yr old boy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_New_ ... _collision


Dear Lord, was unaware of this tragedy.
Strong images here: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/1960-new-york-city-plane-crash-back-gallery-1.1549629
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:52 pm

aa777jfklhr wrote:
Today marks the 59th anniversary of UA flight 826 a DC8 operating ORD-JFK and TW flight 266 a L1046 operating DAY-CMH-LGA. These two aircraft collided over the densely populated borough of Brooklyn. The UA aircraft crashed in Park Slope, Brooklyn while the TW aircraft made it across the harbor and crashed in Staten Island. All were killed on both aircraft.

Does anyone have any memories of this?


I think you have it backwards. The collision was over Miller Field. The United jet continued on for 8 miles before crashing.
 
B764er
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:52 pm

The DC 8 was N8013U. The 13th DC 8 on UA's fleet.
Lucky 13.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:03 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
aa777jfklhr wrote:
Today marks the 59th anniversary of UA flight 826 a DC8 operating ORD-JFK and TW flight 266 a L1046 operating DAY-CMH-LGA. These two aircraft collided over the densely populated borough of Brooklyn. The UA aircraft crashed in Park Slope, Brooklyn while the TW aircraft made it across the harbor and crashed in Staten Island. All were killed on both aircraft.

Does anyone have any memories of this?


I think you have it backwards. The collision was over Miller Field. The United jet continued on for 8 miles before crashing.


Eight miles before crashing...wow.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:10 pm

I believe the DC-8 overran a holding fix due to inop DME. The collision brought about rules requiring DME for jets; notify ATC of inoperative navaids, slow to holding speeds three minutes prior to the fix. I remember reading the Daily News articles as a kid.

I witnessed the EA Connie after it broke cloud over Pound Ridge NY following its collision with a TWA 707 in ‘65. I was a Boy Scout camping in the reservation.

GF
 
cedarjet
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:50 pm

The boy who initially survived the crash in Brooklyn was Stephen Baltz. New York and all of America prayed for him to make it but alas the next morning the boy’s dad emerged to tell the press waiting at the entrance of the Methodist Hospital in Park Slope that he had died. The dad dropped the blackened coins that had been in Stephen’s pocket into the collection plate of hospital chapel. The priest fished them out and had them fashioned into a memorial that is in the chapel to this day (you can see it on google images). I dropped in a couple of anniversaries ago to pay my respects and there were two cards there left for Stephen by strangers — “we were the same age but you never grew old,” very emotional stuff! Brave kid, RIP Stephen Baltz.

Also, if you go to the crossroads where the DC-8 came down, you can see the mismatched brickwork from the repairs to the neighbourhood after the crash, and the gates of the Pillar Of Fire church which was demolished by the jet were rescued and today are attached to the two front windows of a townhouse down the road as anti-burglary grills. If you know to look, you can’t miss em.
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32andBelow
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:54 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I believe the DC-8 overran a holding fix due to inop DME. The collision brought about rules requiring DME for jets; notify ATC of inoperative navaids, slow to holding speeds three minutes prior to the fix. I remember reading the Daily News articles as a kid.

I witnessed the EA Connie after it broke cloud over Pound Ridge NY following its collision with a TWA 707 in ‘65. I was a Boy Scout camping in the reservation.

GF

And 250kt below 10000
 
EMBQA
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:01 pm

A friends father was FDNY. He once very briefly mentioned a plane crash he was at. I'm guessing this was it. He never talked about it, and I never pressed. He retired before September 2001.
Last edited by EMBQA on Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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twaconnie
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:05 pm

This also brings back memories of another collision just four years earlier also involving UA/TW over the Grand Canyon UA DC-7 and TWA super Connie.
In 2014 the crash site was designated a National Historic Landmark, some wreckage can still be seen at the bottom of the canyon on clear day's. The cause is not entirely clear, all 128 people on both planes were killed.
 
cedarjet
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:01 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I witnessed the EA Connie after it broke cloud over Pound Ridge NY following its collision with a TWA 707 in ‘65. I was a Boy Scout camping in the reservation.

GF

That’s incredible. The captain of the EA Connie was super brave, managed a miracle landing with no controls on the upslope of a wooded hillside and lost his life by going back into the burning wreck to save a wheelchair passenger. When you saw it, did you know it was in trouble?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
ozark1
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:34 pm

What has always amazed me about the official report on this accident is that the factor of pilot fatigue isn’t even mentioned. The cockpit crew of UA 826 had started in LAX and flown through the night to ORD, where a new cabin crew joined them for the next leg. It is known the UA crew flew past an intersection where they were told to hold, but in all the detailed explanations I’ve never seen a mention of the possibility of fatigue.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:46 pm

cedarjet wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I witnessed the EA Connie after it broke cloud over Pound Ridge NY following its collision with a TWA 707 in ‘65. I was a Boy Scout camping in the reservation.

GF

That’s incredible. The captain of the EA Connie was super brave, managed a miracle landing with no controls on the upslope of a wooded hillside and lost his life by going back into the burning wreck to save a wheelchair passenger. When you saw it, did you know it was in trouble?


Yes, it was fairly low, maybe 4,000’, flying erratically with great pitch excursions (they lost part of the tail in the collision). I later flew with the co-pilot’s brother. The engineer retired in Florida and his wife was my mother’s hairdresser for awhile. I survived a military mid-air in an A-10. Strange coincidences.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mga707
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:48 pm

twaconnie wrote:
This also brings back memories of another collision just four years earlier also involving UA/TW over the Grand Canyon UA DC-7 and TWA super Connie.
In 2014 the crash site was designated a National Historic Landmark, some wreckage can still be seen at the bottom of the canyon on clear day's. The cause is not entirely clear, all 128 people on both planes were killed.


If you haven't already, read "We Are Going In" by Mike Nelson. Excellent and thorough book about the Canyon collision that was published in 2012.
 
FlyKBHM
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:01 pm

ozark1 wrote:
What has always amazed me about the official report on this accident is that the factor of pilot fatigue isn’t even mentioned. The cockpit crew of UA 826 had started in LAX and flown through the night to ORD, where a new cabin crew joined them for the next leg. It is known the UA crew flew past an intersection where they were told to hold, but in all the detailed explanations I’ve never seen a mention of the possibility of fatigue.


Wow, thanks for this nugget. I'm guessing that in the 1960s the idea of fatigue as a causal factor wasn't widely discussed.

From the CAB report, page 2, regarding the United flight, "This would be a means of identifying the Preston Intersection but, under the circumstances, would require rapid mental calculation in the interpretation of a display which could be easily misread. Several factors support the conclusion that this occurred." [bold added]

A modern report by the US NTSB, French BEA, Canadian TSB, etc. would much more thoroughly investigate the human factors that lead to the missed fix and hold.I wonder how much the "sky god" captain (Crew Resource Management, what's that????), post-WW II "get it done" mentality of the day played a part as well?
 
twaconnie
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:12 pm

mga707 wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
This also brings back memories of another collision just four years earlier also involving UA/TW over the Grand Canyon UA DC-7 and TWA super Connie.
In 2014 the crash site was designated a National Historic Landmark, some wreckage can still be seen at the bottom of the canyon on clear day's. The cause is not entirely clear, all 128 people on both planes were killed.


If you haven't already, read "We Are Going In" by Mike Nelson. Excellent and thorough book about the Canyon collision that was published in 2012.


Thanks I'll look for it.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:28 pm

FlyKBHM wrote:

From the CAB report, page 2, regarding the United flight, "This would be a means of identifying the Preston Intersection but, under the circumstances, would require rapid mental calculation in the interpretation of a display which could be easily misread. Several factors support the conclusion that this occurred." [bold added]

A modern report by the US NTSB, French BEA, Canadian TSB, etc. would much more thoroughly investigate the human factors that lead to the missed fix and hold.I wonder how much the "sky god" captain (Crew Resource Management, what's that????), post-WW II "get it done" mentality of the day played a part as well?


They did investigate the human factor to the point that pilots flying the new jet airliners had to mentally adjust to the higher speeds compared to the props. Calculations and attentions had to come quicker. Some pilots transitioning to jets found that a struggle. This from a pilot who made the transition.
 
timz
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:49 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I believe the DC-8 overran a holding fix due to inop DME.

As I recall, Preston wasn't a DME fix -- just an intersection of two radials. Didn't the DC8 just have one working VOR receiver?
 
kaitak
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:37 pm

Here's the CAB report; it makes interesting - if rather sad - reading.

Interesting that none of the crew had more than 500 hours on DC8s.

https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/33651
 
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Polot
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:58 pm

kaitak wrote:

Interesting that none of the crew had more than 500 hours on DC8s.

The DC-8 had only been in service for a little more than a year at the time of the crash.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:39 pm

timz wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I believe the DC-8 overran a holding fix due to inop DME.

As I recall, Preston wasn't a DME fix -- just an intersection of two radials. Didn't the DC8 just have one working VOR receiver?


You’re right, memory lapse. Cross tuning one VOR with lots of knots—not good.
 
nomadic
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:41 pm

In 1960 my father was a TWA flight dispatcher at Idlewild (as it was known then.) He was the union representative at the crash site on Staten Island and later during the investigation. Till the end of his days he remembered the crash as the most horrible thing he had ever seen.

An ironic twist is that the United jet came down only a few blocks from Dad's mother's brownstone row house in Brooklyn.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:26 am

nomadic wrote:
In 1960 my father was a TWA flight dispatcher at Idlewild (as it was known then.) He was the union representative at the crash site on Staten Island and later during the investigation. Till the end of his days he remembered the crash as the most horrible thing he had ever seen.

An ironic twist is that the United jet came down only a few blocks from Dad's mother's brownstone row house in Brooklyn.



Thanks for sharing. Never knew about this crash. It is awkwardly fascinating but more horrid and sad.
 
F9Animal
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:45 am

I recall several survivors were pulled from the TWA Connie wreckage, but they all passed away shortly after? I wonder... With today's medical staff and rescue teams, could we have seen some survivors of this accident happened in 2020?
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aemoreira1981
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Re: UA/TW Mid-Air Collision Brooklyn NY - Anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:52 am

F9Animal wrote:
I recall several survivors were pulled from the TWA Connie wreckage, but they all passed away shortly after? I wonder... With today's medical staff and rescue teams, could we have seen some survivors of this accident happened in 2020?


Staten Island at the time was largely undeveloped except for the area near the ferry and the north shore (remember, the Verrazano Narrows Bridge was under construction then). Staten Island had a bunch of hospitals then, but all (Staten Island Hospital, St. Vincent's Hospital, and Doctors' Hospital) but one were on the north shore or near the Staten Island Expressway, (and the one on the south shore, Richmond Memorial, was not likely to be able to handle all of the casualties). Another hospital that would have been closer, the former Seaside Hospital, was being demolished at this time for an expressway eventually canceled. By contrast, Methodist Hospital is straight down 7 Avenue from the crash site of where the tail section of N8013U ended up (the tail ended up at Sterling Place, 6 Street, where Methodist Hospital is, is 13 blocks south).

What surprises me is: if the TWA plane was doing an approach to Runway 4/31 at LGA, why it was that high. Typically, the Runway 31L/R (and Runway 32 at the time) approach to JFK is much higher than the Runway 4/31 approach to LGA at that point. Runway 31 is what would likely have been in use around that time...however, even if it were the 22s, why was the United plane that low?

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