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BOSAero
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Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:16 pm

The operators making the headlines are the big guys. WN, AA, UA, Chinese operators, etc. But what about the little guys? The ones that ordered the airplane? Leased or purchased. The ones that are at risk of loosing it all or having to go through major changes or restructuring to cope with the prolonged grounding. How is Boeing dealing with these operators? I’m sure there’s some kind of contractual obligations? Renegotiations? Any thoughts? Any insights from first or second hand knowledge?
 
olle
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:30 pm

Boeing is behind a lot of the disasters at Norwegian.

First the 787 mess. Now 737 Max
 
xwb777
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:33 pm

Sheikh Ahmed Bin Saeed, Flydubai Chairman, once stated that the carrier is open to the idea of ordering from Airbus if the MAX issues are unsolved in the short term.

Flydubai has 14 B737MAXs (both -8 and -9) with over 200 on order.

If they do order some NEOs and A220s, I guess they will be arriving within years time.
 
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qf789
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:47 pm

olle wrote:
Boeing is behind a lot of the disasters at Norwegian.

First the 787 mess. Now 737 Max


The 787 mess as you put it is on RR, not Boeing, last time I checked Boeing didn't manufacture engines
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scbriml
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:10 pm

qf789 wrote:
olle wrote:
Boeing is behind a lot of the disasters at Norwegian.

First the 787 mess. Now 737 Max


The 787 mess as you put it is on RR, not Boeing, last time I checked Boeing didn't manufacture engines


Maybe the “787 mess” is relating to Boeing’s performance prior to EIS?
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lots
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:10 pm

qf789 wrote:
olle wrote:
Boeing is behind a lot of the disasters at Norwegian.

First the 787 mess. Now 737 Max


The 787 mess as you put it is on RR, not Boeing, last time I checked Boeing didn't manufacture engines


I believe he referred to overall reliability of then new 787 when under tight schedule
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norwegianair-boeing-dreamliner/norwegian-air-summons-boeing-for-787-reliability-talks-idUSBRE98M0Q820130923
 
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bgm
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:19 pm

qf789 wrote:
olle wrote:
Boeing is behind a lot of the disasters at Norwegian.

First the 787 mess. Now 737 Max


The 787 mess as you put it is on RR, not Boeing, last time I checked Boeing didn't manufacture engines


Really? I didn't realize that the delayed EIS, the lithium-ion battery problems/grounding, and poor dispatch reliability were caused by RR.
Last edited by bgm on Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoardingPass
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:22 pm

Blue Air delayed the retirement of its B733s and B735s due to MAX delays...
 
Noshow
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:34 pm

Vulnerable airlines? All 737 operators with big sized fleets and big growth plans.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:44 pm

Air Canada. 1/4 of their narrowbody fleet at present. Their A220s can't come soon enough and their 320's are on their last legs and some of the oldest flying. AC's massive mistake to go for the MAX over the NEO will haunt them for years to come if the MAX isn't back soon.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:50 pm

BOSAero wrote:
The operators making the headlines are the big guys. WN, AA, UA, Chinese operators, etc. But what about the little guys? The ones that ordered the airplane? Leased or purchased. The ones that are at risk of loosing it all or having to go through major changes or restructuring to cope with the prolonged grounding. How is Boeing dealing with these operators? I’m sure there’s some kind of contractual obligations? Renegotiations? Any thoughts? Any insights from first or second hand knowledge?
CM, is hands down, the most vulnerable MAX operator.
No U.S., Chinese operators were already flying plenty of routes over 2250nm in B737-700/800.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:52 pm

What about FR and their 737-only fleet?

If the MAX never comes back their business model will suffer a severe blow
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lots
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:57 pm

I'd say LO has a lot of problems due to the grounding (5 grounded and few more not delivered). And being rather small player it's a large chunk of fleet not flying or subbed by ragtag leases - reliability is not there, it only takes one cancelled flight and close to two hundred people are swearing "never again", publicly voicing their displeasure and Your (not so good to begin with) public perception takes another hit. Also RR issues don't help.
Having said that I am curious how Boeing will compensate small but loyal customer.
 
dc855
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:03 pm

At this current point in time almost 25% of FI's total fleet was supposed to be MAX airplanes. I doubt that any other airline has as a high a percentage. They made a massive mistake in ordering them instead of the A320 family.
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:05 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
What about FR and their 737-only fleet?

If the MAX never comes back their business model will suffer a severe blow


You got to imagine they are talking to Airbus. MOL has already expressed interest in 100 plus Airbus for Laudamotion, add on a similar amount for FR? The group is big enough and they already have dual fleet now with the Lauda a320 acquisition.

Link to the early Airbus discussions for Laudamotion, prior to ET crash. Also mentions MAX10 for FR but not hatd to imagine this changing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryan ... SKCN1QN1DU
Last edited by ShamrockBoi330 on Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:09 pm

Ryanair is all 737NGs - they are already closing bases.... plus their unique version of the 737MAX needs a separate certificate and is further delayed by mysterious "design issues".

However, they do own the all Airbus Lauda Air.. so they could hoover up Airbus's from the second hand market.. plus they have separate brands in Poland and Malta..

I would suspect MOL is losing his patience with Boeing..
 
raylee67
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:38 pm

Singapore Airlines is supposed to have their regional subsidiary, Silk Air, merged into SQ after MAX deliveries, and they were going to install full flat bed business class on the MAX to standardize their premium offering in the full-service sector. The MAX delays will have an impact on the implementation of this strategy, and leaving Silk Air at a strange place between SQ full-service business and Scoot, for longer than SQ wants it to.

GOL Brasil also was going to develop longer routes into US non-stop from Brazil using MAX. Those continue to be delayed. MAX is supposed to open new market for GOL.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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Murdoughnut
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:40 pm

Nobody mentions Icelandair - 14% of their total fleet, I believe, for a carrier struggling as it is.
 
hohd
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:42 pm

SpiceJet of India is vulnerable. It has lost money in the most recent quarter and is affected by the 737MAX shut down. If the issue does not get resolved by next summer (2020), Spice Jet might not survive.
 
Bongodog49
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:43 pm

Murdoughnut wrote:
Nobody mentions Icelandair - 14% of their total fleet, I believe, for a carrier struggling as it is.


Hell, better get my Christmas fish ordered :white: :white:
 
FB330
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:49 pm

TUI in Europe is a concern. A handful grounded but bucket loads on order.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:56 pm

Murdoughnut wrote:
Nobody mentions Icelandair - 14% of their total fleet, I believe, for a carrier struggling as it is.


Nobody...except for dc855 who did so 37 minutes before your post.

dc855 wrote:
At this current point in time almost 25% of FI's total fleet was supposed to be MAX airplanes. I doubt that any other airline has as a high a percentage.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
capitalflyer
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:59 pm

Ummm...how about WN? All Boeing fleet that is not getting any younger. MAX suspension brings any growth plans to a screeching halt.

BTW, thank you for starting a new thread rather then just adding to the bloated MAX thread. Much easier to track topical discussions with separate threads!!
 
txkf2010
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:04 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
Ummm...how about WN? All Boeing fleet that is not getting any younger. MAX suspension brings any growth plans to a screeching halt.


Same goes for WestJet.
 
DY789
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:15 pm

What about the small Grand Cayman airline? They had been operating the 737 classics. Probably forked out a small fortune in pilot training for their swanky new jets...for (currently at least...) nothing.

A side question? Would airlines be compensated throughout the grounding? Or once everything eventually returns to normal, would they look to sue Boeing for overall loss of earnings?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:25 pm

Icelandair has trouble, because the 73/ was supposed to be a big part of the fleet by now.
 
niconet
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:29 pm

What about AR? They currently have five MAX8 stored and count eleven more to be delivered. Will this affect them seriously or the additional frames were selected for route expansion?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:32 pm

The topic is MAX impact on airlines. Please keep on topic.
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terefere
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:35 pm

lots wrote:
I'd say LO has a lot of problems due to the grounding (5 grounded and few more not delivered). And being rather small player it's a large chunk of fleet not flying or subbed by ragtag leases - reliability is not there, it only takes one cancelled flight and close to two hundred people are swearing "never again", publicly voicing their displeasure and Your (not so good to begin with) public perception takes another hit. Also RR issues don't help.
Having said that I am curious how Boeing will compensate small but loyal customer.


If I’m not mistaken, by now LO should have 15 Maxes which would be close to 25% of their narrowbody fleet.
 
morrisond
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:36 pm

However what many of you are ignoring is that with all this extra capacity out of the Market - Yields would logically have risen.

This seems to be born out in Airlines results. AC's EBITDA in the latest Quarter was actually 9% better than last year before the grounding.

It's impossible to say what exactly contributed to that number - AC mentions in there press release that results could have been even better with the MAX in the Fleet - but with more Capacity in the market Yields could have been less.

Overall I don't think it has necessarily been a bad financial thing for operators.

https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... elease.pdf
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:37 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
Ummm...how about WN? All Boeing fleet that is not getting any younger. MAX suspension brings any growth plans to a screeching halt.

BTW, thank you for starting a new thread rather then just adding to the bloated MAX thread. Much easier to track topical discussions with separate threads!!


I second this on both points, the bloated MAX thread is nearly useless except for a few enthusiasts following every word from the FAA.

I want to hear about WN. They are the largest operator of MAX in the USA and have a huge order book for them. They are smaller than the big 3 and with the big 3 getting their act together in the domestic game and the small ULCC eating scraps like piranha around the WN route map, what is WN to do????

I've stopped obessing over rumor mergers, but this situation seems like the perfect storm to allow WN to:

a) acquire (kill off) a competitor.
b) gain valuable slots and gates and presence in regions they are woefully lacking currently (North-East, Caribbean)
c) currently in contract negotiations with the FAs and pushing hard to allow other fleet types
d) finally getting different fleet types so they can send the right planes to the right markets
e) blame it ALL on Boeing and gain sympathy with the government and the flying public to facilitate them gobbling up a smaller airline

You all know who fits the bill for this. jetBlue. Southwest can kill a whole flock of bluebirds with one stone provided by Boeing, the max issue. Every month that goes by in 2020 without a MAX solution = exponentially greater chance this happens. How can it not??
 
FCRO
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:37 pm

G3 made big plans and big publicity to fly the MAX on the following routes: FOR-MCO/MIA, BSB-MCO/MIA, BSB-CUN
They are flying FOR/BSB-PUJ-MCO/MIA and BSB-MAO-CUN

Great impact on fleet and route planing
Last edited by FCRO on Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Vladex
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:37 pm

Operators who ordered it wanted something cheap and quick and they got something totally different . As someone says, be really careful what you wish for because you may be wishing contradictory things. It's the operator fault and they should pay the price even if they go under, lots of them do and it's a lesson for others.
 
morrisond
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:40 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Icelandair has trouble, because the 73/ was supposed to be a big part of the fleet by now.


They seem to be doing fine and benefiting from the reduction in Capacity as well by not flying as many unprofitable routes.

"“The third quarter results show improvements in the Company’s underlying operations despite the
unprecedented impact of the suspension of the MAX aircraft, Icelandair’s key strength is the flexibility of
the route network which has allowed us to optimise our flight schedule by shifting our focus towards
more profitable routes and markets. We have emphasised the tourist market “to” Iceland to meet
increased demand and transported 30% more passengers to Iceland during the high season year-onyear and this focus will continue into 2020."

https://www.icelandairgroup.is/servlet/ ... 5/item.pdf
 
BOSAero
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:42 pm

DY789 wrote:
What about the small Grand Cayman airline? They had been operating the 737 classics. Probably forked out a small fortune in pilot training for their swanky new jets...for (currently at least...) nothing.

A side question? Would airlines be compensated throughout the grounding? Or once everything eventually returns to normal, would they look to sue Boeing for overall loss of earnings?


Cayman Airways is exactly the example I was looking for! Anymore like it? What are they doing to mitigate the grounding? What is their game plan for when the grounding is over?
 
morrisond
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:45 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
Ummm...how about WN? All Boeing fleet that is not getting any younger. MAX suspension brings any growth plans to a screeching halt.

BTW, thank you for starting a new thread rather then just adding to the bloated MAX thread. Much easier to track topical discussions with separate threads!!


They seem to be doing fine with Record Results and benefitting from Increased yields due to lower Industry Capacity as well.

"Third quarter 2019 operating revenue per available seat mile (RASM, or unit revenues) was a record 14.32 cents, and increased 4.2 percent, driven largely by a passenger revenue yield increase of 4.1 percent, and offset slightly by a load factor decrease of 0.4 points, all year-over-year. Third quarter 2019 RASM benefited year-over-year by approximately two points as a result of lower third quarter 2019 available seat miles (ASMs, or capacity) due to the MAX groundings"

http://investors.southwest.com/news-and ... -112936719
 
morrisond
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Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:51 pm

BOSAero wrote:
DY789 wrote:
What about the small Grand Cayman airline? They had been operating the 737 classics. Probably forked out a small fortune in pilot training for their swanky new jets...for (currently at least...) nothing.

A side question? Would airlines be compensated throughout the grounding? Or once everything eventually returns to normal, would they look to sue Boeing for overall loss of earnings?


Cayman Airways is exactly the example I was looking for! Anymore like it? What are they doing to mitigate the grounding? What is their game plan for when the grounding is over?


Here you go - they seem to have a pretty good plan and with Comp from Boeing they should be fine which would presumably cover the carry costs on the Delivered Max's and extra operating costs on the 300's.

"Cayman Airways (KX, Grand Cayman Island) has said it will not sell any of its three B737-300s before 2020 as the aircraft are required to cover for the grounded B737-8s, the Cayman News Service has reported.

"Despite the ongoing delay, CAL still intends to retire and sell its 737-300 jet fleet, though no aircraft are expected to be sold before 2020," a spokesperson said.

Originally, the carrier hoped to sell all three B737 Classics by the end of 2019. It intended to replace them with B737-8s. It took delivery of the first B737 MAX in late November 2018 and the second on March 7, 2019. The second unit, VP-CIX (msn 63561), did not enter into revenue service before the type's grounding.

The airline was originally due to take the third MAX 8 in September 2019 and the fourth in September 2020. All four units are dry-leased from Air Lease Corporation.

Cayman Airways' B737-300s are 24.6 years old on average and are owned by the airline, the ch-aviation fleets advanced module shows.

Besides the three Boeing twinjets, Cayman Airways also operates two DHC-6-300s and two Saab 340B(Plus) aircraft through its subsidiary Cayman Airways Express."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -grounding
 
FCRO
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:58 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:51 pm

BOSAero wrote:
DY789 wrote:
What about the small Grand Cayman airline? They had been operating the 737 classics. Probably forked out a small fortune in pilot training for their swanky new jets...for (currently at least...) nothing.

A side question? Would airlines be compensated throughout the grounding? Or once everything eventually returns to normal, would they look to sue Boeing for overall loss of earnings?


Cayman Airways is exactly the example I was looking for! Anymore like it? What are they doing to mitigate the grounding? What is their game plan for when the grounding is over?


They have 3 737-300 that were supposed to be retired after the Max, they did not have plans to add longer routes with the max , so just keep the -300 flying for more time
 
capitalflyer
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:00 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
Ummm...how about WN? All Boeing fleet that is not getting any younger. MAX suspension brings any growth plans to a screeching halt.

BTW, thank you for starting a new thread rather then just adding to the bloated MAX thread. Much easier to track topical discussions with separate threads!!



WN will cut up to 300 flights per day. That is about 7.5% of its total of 4,000 daily flights.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... roduction/
 
capitalflyer
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:00 pm

Have airlines already brought 737ceos out of storage to fill the MAX gap?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:09 pm

No question the MAX has been a huge problem for Norweigan. They finally found niche routes of SWF in particular that were killing it. Really strong results and perfect for that sized plane.

Untied did the best job at being proactive to reduce stress. They went out and bought some compatible and will prices were good 737-700s used. Some people on a.net thought it was overreacting and MAX had to be back soon. United made the right conservative call here. MAX is a total unknown still.
 
TObound
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:16 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Air Canada. 1/4 of their narrowbody fleet at present. Their A220s can't come soon enough and their 320's are on their last legs and some of the oldest flying. AC's massive mistake to go for the MAX over the NEO will haunt them for years to come if the MAX isn't back soon.


Luckily for AC, their prime competitor is an all-Boeing operator.....

txkf2010 wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:
Ummm...how about WN? All Boeing fleet that is not getting any younger. MAX suspension brings any growth plans to a screeching halt.


Same goes for WestJet.



Westjet was late enough on their deliveries that they are oddly less dependent on the MAX at this time than Air Canada. But long term this is a much bigger issue for them than AC.
Last edited by TObound on Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2772
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:20 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
No question the MAX has been a huge problem for Norweigan. They finally found niche routes of SWF in particular that were killing it. Really strong results and perfect for that sized plane.

Untied did the best job at being proactive to reduce stress. They went out and bought some compatible and will prices were good 737-700s used. Some people on a.net thought it was overreacting and MAX had to be back soon. United made the right conservative call here. MAX is a total unknown still.


Norwegian seems to be doing fine as well - benefiting from improved yields due to lower capacity. I think there is reason Airlines aren't complaining too much about the grounding - the industry may have had too much capacity and the grounding is actually helping results. Plus they will get additional Comp from Boeing - not a bad deal.

"Norwegian reports its best ever quarterly result with a profit before tax of
NOK 2.2 billion
Norwegian’s third quarter results are characterized by
improved profitability, higher unit revenue, lower unit
cost and reduced growth, in line with the strategy. Profit
before tax improved by 38 per cent compared to the same
quarter last year to NOK 2.2 billion.
Unit revenue and revenue per passenger kilometer (yield)
both increased by 3 per cent this quarter. Total revenue
was NOK 14.4 billion, an increase of 8 per cent from the
same period last year, primarily driven by intercontinental
growth. Norwegian carried approximately 10.5 million
passengers; a reduction of 3 per cent due to lower
capacity. The load factor was 91.2 per cent, up by 0.7
percentage points."

https://www.norwegian.com/globalassets/ ... _final.pdf


Any other Airlines people think will be destroyed by the MAX and you want me to find actual evidence that probably isn't true on?
 
morrisond
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:25 pm

TObound wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
Air Canada. 1/4 of their narrowbody fleet at present. Their A220s can't come soon enough and their 320's are on their last legs and some of the oldest flying. AC's massive mistake to go for the MAX over the NEO will haunt them for years to come if the MAX isn't back soon.


Luckily for AC, their prime competitor is an all-Boeing operator.....


Westjet is now private so It's very difficult to get Financial results - but if they are benefiting from increased yields due to lower capacity like AC (See Up thread for AC's results) they should be fine.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:27 pm

morrisond wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Icelandair has trouble, because the 73/ was supposed to be a big part of the fleet by now.


They seem to be doing fine and benefiting from the reduction in Capacity as well by not flying as many unprofitable routes.

"“The third quarter results show improvements in the Company’s underlying operations despite the
unprecedented impact of the suspension of the MAX aircraft, Icelandair’s key strength is the flexibility of
the route network which has allowed us to optimise our flight schedule by shifting our focus towards
more profitable routes and markets. We have emphasised the tourist market “to” Iceland to meet
increased demand and transported 30% more passengers to Iceland during the high season year-onyear and this focus will continue into 2020."

https://www.icelandairgroup.is/servlet/ ... 5/item.pdf


So Icelandair is benefiting from the grounding of the MAX. It would be interesting how you read that out of the statement that you quote.

the quote starts with: The third quarter results show improvements in the Company’s underlying operations despite the unprecedented impact of the suspension of the MAX aircraft,

Is "unprecedented impact" something difficult to understand? Yes Icelandair tries to make the best out of a bad situation.
 
dc855
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:41 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:42 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
morrisond wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Icelandair has trouble, because the 73/ was supposed to be a big part of the fleet by now.


They seem to be doing fine and benefiting from the reduction in Capacity as well by not flying as many unprofitable routes.

"“The third quarter results show improvements in the Company’s underlying operations despite the
unprecedented impact of the suspension of the MAX aircraft, Icelandair’s key strength is the flexibility of
the route network which has allowed us to optimise our flight schedule by shifting our focus towards
more profitable routes and markets. We have emphasised the tourist market “to” Iceland to meet
increased demand and transported 30% more passengers to Iceland during the high season year-onyear and this focus will continue into 2020."

https://www.icelandairgroup.is/servlet/ ... 5/item.pdf


So Icelandair is benefiting from the grounding of the MAX. It would be interesting how you read that out of the statement that you quote.

the quote starts with: The third quarter results show improvements in the Company’s underlying operations despite the unprecedented impact of the suspension of the MAX aircraft,

Is "unprecedented impact" something difficult to understand? Yes Icelandair tries to make the best out of a bad situation.


The main reason for FI doing a bit better is of course the fact that WW went bust. You can be absolutely sure that the grounding is hurting the airline. They have had to lease 5 aircraft on a very short notice to fill in the gaps and are flying expensive 757's that were supposed to be scrapped by now. In fact Boeing has supposedly twice paid the airline for damages caused by the grounding.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:57 pm

KX has had to charter XTRA airways for some of their flights. They also one 733 down as it is in maintenance at SJO. According to this source they have lost 6 million compared to what they had budgeted with the MAX. Nevertheless KX has lost money for years and the government of the Cayman Islands has the means to support the airline.

https://caymannewsservice.com/2019/11/c ... ed-planes/
 
morrisond
Posts: 2772
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:06 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
morrisond wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Icelandair has trouble, because the 73/ was supposed to be a big part of the fleet by now.


They seem to be doing fine and benefiting from the reduction in Capacity as well by not flying as many unprofitable routes.

"“The third quarter results show improvements in the Company’s underlying operations despite the
unprecedented impact of the suspension of the MAX aircraft, Icelandair’s key strength is the flexibility of
the route network which has allowed us to optimise our flight schedule by shifting our focus towards
more profitable routes and markets. We have emphasised the tourist market “to” Iceland to meet
increased demand and transported 30% more passengers to Iceland during the high season year-onyear and this focus will continue into 2020."

https://www.icelandairgroup.is/servlet/ ... 5/item.pdf


So Icelandair is benefiting from the grounding of the MAX. It would be interesting how you read that out of the statement that you quote.

the quote starts with: The third quarter results show improvements in the Company’s underlying operations despite the unprecedented impact of the suspension of the MAX aircraft,

Is "unprecedented impact" something difficult to understand? Yes Icelandair tries to make the best out of a bad situation.


No - I can read a financial statement - it looks like they are doing better with the grounding than they probably would without - look at the financial results.
 
AZa346
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:11 pm

Air Italy has 3 MAX out of 8 737 they have, pretty big deal for them as well, especially as it came right when the new business plan was being implemented, so the older 737s haven't been repainted and there is not a great brand awareness unfortunately
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24587
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Most vulnerable MAX operators.

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:36 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Air Canada. 1/4 of their narrowbody fleet at present. Their A220s can't come soon enough and their 320's are on their last legs and some of the oldest flying. AC's massive mistake to go for the MAX over the NEO will haunt them for years to come if the MAX isn't back soon.

It's interesting how people forget how recently the PW GTF had early NEO customers so cheesed off.

In QR's case they dumped PW for CFM on their next batch.

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
What about FR and their 737-only fleet?

If the MAX never comes back their business model will suffer a severe blow

You got to imagine they are talking to Airbus. MOL has already expressed interest in 100 plus Airbus for Laudamotion, add on a similar amount for FR? The group is big enough and they already have dual fleet now with the Lauda a320 acquisition.

Link to the early Airbus discussions for Laudamotion, prior to ET crash. Also mentions MAX10 for FR but not hatd to imagine this changing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryan ... SKCN1QN1DU

They can talk all they want, but Airbus has no slots to offer through 2025 or so.
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