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Noise
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Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:00 pm

 
santi319
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:45 pm

Canada, like London is “imminent”...

Get ready for B6 to take over the world!
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:54 pm

JetBlue has many connections to the Caribbean, Florida and parts of South America from New York. Connecting flights from Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa to New York City would seem to make sense for those looking for another alternatives in flying south.
 
tphuang
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:06 pm

santi319 wrote:
Canada, like London is “imminent”...

Get ready for B6 to take over the world!


They already announced London and got the plane for it and start ETOPS certification process. Not the same as filing interest to serve as part of a complaint letter to DL/NK JV. But sure, continue your need to trash B6 at every opportunity.

If they don't get acquired, they will fly to Canada at some point. YYZ is their largest hole out of BOS after London/Paris.
 
HVNandrew
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:31 pm

I know BOS/JFK-YYZ would be the most likely B6 routes to Canada, though I wonder if they would ever consider a route like YUL-FLL. That is a very big market; AC still flies widebodies on the route in the winter.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:31 pm

The last 2 paragraphs make me cringe...

Canada would not be the first international expansion for JetBlue.

Correct, for years they have been operating: Aruba, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Guyana, Jamaica, Mexico, Peru, and many more.

And this month, JetBlue announced its longest flight: a 6.5-hour trip from New York City to Guayaquil

False, this was announced in April; it just entered service this month.
Last edited by FlyHPN on Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
berari
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:32 pm

tphuang wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Canada, like London is “imminent”...

Get ready for B6 to take over the world!


They already announced London and got the plane for it and start ETOPS certification process. Not the same as filing interest to serve as part of a complaint letter to DL/NK JV. But sure, continue your need to trash B6 at every opportunity.

If they don't get acquired, they will fly to Canada at some point. YYZ is their largest hole out of BOS after London/Paris.


They already have the aircraft for it. Of various sizes. But it's a tough and expensive market to get into. Maybe, just maybe the LON/PAR openings will give them the ability to funnel Canadian traffic through their hubs.

Who would acquire B6?
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:47 pm

On the one hand, there's a huge market from Canada to sun destinations in winter, which could be routed through B6 hubs. The problem is that the sun market is seasonal, and YYZ-NYC is an extremely competitive market that already has four players (five if you count UA and AC separately), and JFK is very much the least attractive NYC area airport for Canadians travelling to New York. There are already a lot of non-stop options to sun destinations from Canadian cities, so you're chasing more of the lower-end market. B6 already grabs some of that market through BUF, where they can avoid the double taxation and hefty U.S. immigration fees. Canada-Europe is highly competitive, with many options (though the competition may decline somewhat after AC buys TS). It'll take quite a fare differential to get Canadians to go through U.S. immigration and endure a connection at an airport like JFK. Given the inconvenience of clearing Canada seems like a logical market for B6, but it's tricky to make it work, which is why I'm not shocked they've been so slow to try it.
 
airzona11
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:03 am

YYZLGA wrote:
On the one hand, there's a huge market from Canada to sun destinations in winter, which could be routed through B6 hubs. The problem is that the sun market is seasonal, and YYZ-NYC is an extremely competitive market that already has four players (five if you count UA and AC separately), and JFK is very much the least attractive NYC area airport for Canadians travelling to New York. There are already a lot of non-stop options to sun destinations from Canadian cities, so you're chasing more of the lower-end market. B6 already grabs some of that market through BUF, where they can avoid the double taxation and hefty U.S. immigration fees. Canada-Europe is highly competitive, with many options (though the competition may decline somewhat after AC buys TS). It'll take quite a fare differential to get Canadians to go through U.S. immigration and endure a connection at an airport like JFK. Given the inconvenience of clearing Canada seems like a logical market for B6, but it's tricky to make it work, which is why I'm not shocked they've been so slow to try it.


Like you say, is connecting leisure traffic with the added fees associated with Canada worth it? No LCC had tackled or had scaled success. Even the US3 have rather limited service. The Canadian dollar doesn't make it any easier. You would have to assume the markets would target the higher end O/D.

JetBlue is not flying to Europe filling their planes with connecting traffic, if they were, they would have A330s/767s/787s/A350s etc. The A321 and their model is going to target the O/D.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:15 am

airzona11 wrote:
You would have to assume the markets would target the higher end O/D.


They're not going to get rich off of YYZ/YUL-JFK/FLL. As noted, there are Canadian carriers doing non-stops.

Were I to try one Canadian destination for B6, that would be a Mint JFK-YVR.
 
tphuang
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:48 am

YYZLGA wrote:
On the one hand, there's a huge market from Canada to sun destinations in winter, which could be routed through B6 hubs. The problem is that the sun market is seasonal, and YYZ-NYC is an extremely competitive market that already has four players (five if you count UA and AC separately), and JFK is very much the least attractive NYC area airport for Canadians travelling to New York. There are already a lot of non-stop options to sun destinations from Canadian cities, so you're chasing more of the lower-end market. B6 already grabs some of that market through BUF, where they can avoid the double taxation and hefty U.S. immigration fees. Canada-Europe is highly competitive, with many options (though the competition may decline somewhat after AC buys TS). It'll take quite a fare differential to get Canadians to go through U.S. immigration and endure a connection at an airport like JFK. Given the inconvenience of clearing Canada seems like a logical market for B6, but it's tricky to make it work, which is why I'm not shocked they've been so slow to try it.


Actually, it will play out differently than you would think. They would get killed if they tried something resembling a business schedule out of LGA. They don't have the slots and they don't have a within perimeter network. Anything, they add to Canada would be for their Boston operation. And NYC would get probably one flight to YYZ. They actually do quite well in this type of markets, where there is limited number of flights out of JFK(mostly for connection purposes). They do 1 or 2 flights a day from JFK to ATL/IAH/DEN/ORD/RDU, which are all large and competitive business markets without a lot of competition from JFK. And those are all profitable markets for them. B6 brand in NYC is strong enough to fill one flight profitably on trunk route. And the competition at JFK-YYZ/YUL is pretty minimal. Not AC presence and AA will probably be out of these markets pretty soon.

The most logical connection option they could try out of JFK from YYZ/YUL are to Latin America.

YVR makes the most sense out of JFK, but BOS-YVR would be hard to do.
 
DFF
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:22 am

This was JetBlue trying to make a case against the WS/DL JV. Nothing in their network is fits with Canadian connection traffic - so it’s more o&d. And if they are unwilling to offer a competitive business type schedule, this isn’t going to happen.

Air Canada, Porter and WestJet are all too strong out of Toronto.

I don’t see it happening anytime soon
 
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spinotter
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:32 am

berari wrote:
tphuang wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Canada, like London is “imminent”...

Get ready for B6 to take over the world!


They already announced London and got the plane for it and start ETOPS certification process. Not the same as filing interest to serve as part of a complaint letter to DL/NK JV. But sure, continue your need to trash B6 at every opportunity.

If they don't get acquired, they will fly to Canada at some point. YYZ is their largest hole out of BOS after London/Paris.


They already have the aircraft for it. Of various sizes. But it's a tough and expensive market to get into. Maybe, just maybe the LON/PAR openings will give them the ability to funnel Canadian traffic through their hubs.

Who would acquire B6?


On another thread there is an interesting case for WN taking them over.in the following thread about which airline is most vulnerable to harm from the MAX situation:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437019

Look for poster CobaltScar.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:40 am

It would be foolish, or worse, to try and compete in the Toronto - NYC market without any feed/flow to other Cdn destinations. And even then......AC/UAL, WS/ DAL (eventually), and Porter’s transborder monopoly into YTZ, would be formidable competition.

JetBlue would have no interesting unit cost advantage over their Cdn equivalent, WS.

As for trying to capture Canadian originating sun traffic connecting over NYC, well, good luck with that.

There is all kinds of n/s capacity from Toronto to the sun on AC, WS, Sunwing etc. Few would choose a one stop / connecting flight over NYC, and LGA of all places, over the plethora of n/s options, with both AC and WS having compelling, and useful, at least to Canadians, loyalty programs.

So perhaps B6 has Cdn aspirations, and there’s nothing much stopping them from launching FLL or BOS to Canada tomorrow morning, but as for LGA to Canada?

I doubt it. Nice try, though.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:40 am

double post
 
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thekorean
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:20 am

I can see Winter seasonal FLL-YYZ or YUL.
 
Noise
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:48 pm

santi319 wrote:
Canada, like London is “imminent”...


:D :bigthumbsup: couldn't help but laugh when I read this.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:20 pm

There are two words here. "Want" and "Need", take BOS for example. to YYZ/YTZ there is already AC, WS and PD, is a 4th needed when B6 already interline on PD flights, while the experience on a Q400 may not be the same, do they really NEED to weigh into that market when that option (PD) already connects nicely to the B6 network through 5-6x daily and flying into E with a short walk to C to catch the connections. So on a NEED basis, I don't think so. Now do B6 WANT to serve Canada, maybe, as the C-Suite has indicated anything outside of the complaint about WS, it's a little hard to tell, it would certainly give them a little leg up on DL in the short term if DL continue to use WS metal to YYZ and why wouldn't they when flights come into A1 and connect nicely with their own network, albeit on a lower number of daily flights. The issue with PD, is them flying into YTZ and no pre-clearance unlike YYZ, but still is it worth the cost of wading into Canada with B6's own metal when you know you will get a big reaction from AC and the combined 800lb Gorilla that would be DL/WS in their JV..

Maybe, but it's far from a given...
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:25 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
I know BOS/JFK-YYZ would be the most likely B6 routes to Canada, though I wonder if they would ever consider a route like YUL-FLL. That is a very big market; AC still flies widebodies on the route in the winter.


YUL-FLL would be a great route for B6 - huge local market and the potential for onward connections.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:37 pm

I'm sure after preclearance at YTZ, PD and B6 can do more of a codeshare on flights along with a possible JV. PD can also add YUL/YOW-BOS/JFK along with YTZ-JFK to align more with B6 flights.
 
Bluewho
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:32 pm

They don’t want to go to Canada. They are playing the game to prevent Delta from using Westjets slots.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:25 am

Bluewho wrote:
They don’t want to go to Canada. They are playing the game to prevent Delta from using Westjets slots.


That's an interesting read. Maybe a little cynical - but I couldn't dismiss it.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:15 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Bluewho wrote:
They don’t want to go to Canada. They are playing the game to prevent Delta from using Westjets slots.


That's an interesting read. Maybe a little cynical - but I couldn't dismiss it.


Probably accurate though. B6 in Canada is an “I’ll believe it when I see it” type of situation.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:08 am

jimbo737 wrote:
It would be foolish, or worse, to try and compete in the Toronto - NYC market without any feed/flow to other Cdn destinations. And even then......AC/UAL, WS/ DAL (eventually), and Porter’s transborder monopoly into YTZ, would be formidable competition.

JetBlue would have no interesting unit cost advantage over their Cdn equivalent, WS.

As for trying to capture Canadian originating sun traffic connecting over NYC, well, good luck with that.

There is all kinds of n/s capacity from Toronto to the sun on AC, WS, Sunwing etc. Few would choose a one stop / connecting flight over NYC, and LGA of all places, over the plethora of n/s options, with both AC and WS having compelling, and useful, at least to Canadians, loyalty programs.

So perhaps B6 has Cdn aspirations, and there’s nothing much stopping them from launching FLL or BOS to Canada tomorrow morning, but as for LGA to Canada?

I doubt it. Nice try, though.


Florida to Canada though...B6 has an advantage that WS and AC don't have---B6 has a new generation plane that can fly, while AC and WS went with the MAX whose reputation is severely damaged and that has been grounded since March. I see this as being highly seasonal though in the winter, to and from FLL, MCO, PBI, and RSW. It could also be a place where B6 shows off their new A220-300s as well.

I suspect that AC would be flying narrow-bodies on some of these sun routes if the MAX wasn't grounded. (AC had to ground 24 planes and WS 13.)
 
tphuang
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:15 am

PD JV isn't happening. Not with B6's scope clause. At most they do a codeshare like with HA, which I find unlikely also. Basically, someone in Boston who is considering which airline will get his/her business is not going to look at interline with PD as something favorable for B6. If you can earn qualifying miles or redeem miles or earn miles, that kind of partnership is useless for a ff. If B6 wants to win ff/corporate client that flies a lot to Canada, it needs to do it on its own metal. After London and Paris, YYZ/YUL are the next largest business markets out of BOS. It will have no choice but to enter Canada at some point if it looks at BOS the way I think it looks at Boston. I don't think it's in the immediate future. More like 4 years in the future kind of thing after Europe expansion settles down.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:01 am

Bluewho wrote:
They don’t want to go to Canada. They are playing the game to prevent Delta from using Westjets slots.


Delta isn't going to be "using" WS's LGA slots. All of them will continue to be used by WS, with WS iron, on LGA-YYZ.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:07 am

Florida to Canada though...B6 has an advantage that WS and AC don't have---B6 has a new generation plane that can fly, while AC and WS went with the MAX whose reputation is severely damaged and that has been grounded since March. I see this as being highly seasonal though in the winter, to and from FLL, MCO, PBI, and RSW. It could also be a place where B6 shows off their new A220-300s as well.

I suspect that AC would be flying narrow-bodies on some of these sun routes if the MAX wasn't grounded. (AC had to ground 24 planes and WS 13.)[/quote]

WS, and AC still have lots of non-Max iron to operate YYZ-FLL. It's a Cdn originating market. Canadians will generally stick with what they know, and where they earn points. Canadians loved to be bribed with their own money.

Collecting points on B6 on their once a year flight to FLL from Canada won't amount to much. On the other hand, collecting points on AC or WS offers up countless more useful flight opportunities for Canadians for VFR flying within Canada.

jetBlue is blowing smoke.
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:46 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
It would be foolish, or worse, to try and compete in the Toronto - NYC market without any feed/flow to other Cdn destinations. And even then......AC/UAL, WS/ DAL (eventually), and Porter’s transborder monopoly into YTZ, would be formidable competition.

JetBlue would have no interesting unit cost advantage over their Cdn equivalent, WS.

As for trying to capture Canadian originating sun traffic connecting over NYC, well, good luck with that.

There is all kinds of n/s capacity from Toronto to the sun on AC, WS, Sunwing etc. Few would choose a one stop / connecting flight over NYC, and LGA of all places, over the plethora of n/s options, with both AC and WS having compelling, and useful, at least to Canadians, loyalty programs.

So perhaps B6 has Cdn aspirations, and there’s nothing much stopping them from launching FLL or BOS to Canada tomorrow morning, but as for LGA to Canada?

I doubt it. Nice try, though.


Florida to Canada though...B6 has an advantage that WS and AC don't have---B6 has a new generation plane that can fly, while AC and WS went with the MAX whose reputation is severely damaged and that has been grounded since March. I see this as being highly seasonal though in the winter, to and from FLL, MCO, PBI, and RSW. It could also be a place where B6 shows off their new A220-300s as well.

I suspect that AC would be flying narrow-bodies on some of these sun routes if the MAX wasn't grounded. (AC had to ground 24 planes and WS 13.)


None of those AC routes from YUL/YYZ to Florida were ever operated with the 7M8. All are rouge routes with a mix of 763 & 319s. YUL-FLL being the power house on FLL with 5 daily 763s.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:57 pm

tphuang wrote:
After London and Paris, YYZ/YUL are the next largest business markets out of BOS.


YYZ yes but I'm not sure about YUL business ties to BOS that create a dire need to increase air travel. There's probably a fair amount of trucking materials between YUL and BOS catchments though.

DUB FRA ZRH AMS SNN and even the destination that has failed so many times ,MEX, might have a larger business component.

O+D is not that big considering that those fall into the low fare category take bus or drive.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
Bluewho
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:47 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Bluewho wrote:
They don’t want to go to Canada. They are playing the game to prevent Delta from using Westjets slots.


Delta isn't going to be "using" WS's LGA slots. All of them will continue to be used by WS, with WS iron, on LGA-YYZ.


Who will be partners with Westjet.
It’s not just JetBlue that has an issue.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/southwest ... elta-pact/


“ A joint venture allows airlines to act as essentially one in a specific market, for example between Canada and the U.S. for Delta and WestJet. This includes coordinating schedules and fares, and jointly marketing and selling tickets.”
 
neromancer
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:24 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
It would be foolish, or worse, to try and compete in the Toronto - NYC market without any feed/flow to other Cdn destinations. And even then......AC/UAL, WS/ DAL (eventually), and Porter’s transborder monopoly into YTZ, would be formidable competition.

JetBlue would have no interesting unit cost advantage over their Cdn equivalent, WS.

As for trying to capture Canadian originating sun traffic connecting over NYC, well, good luck with that.

There is all kinds of n/s capacity from Toronto to the sun on AC, WS, Sunwing etc. Few would choose a one stop / connecting flight over NYC, and LGA of all places, over the plethora of n/s options, with both AC and WS having compelling, and useful, at least to Canadians, loyalty programs.

So perhaps B6 has Cdn aspirations, and there’s nothing much stopping them from launching FLL or BOS to Canada tomorrow morning, but as for LGA to Canada?

I doubt it. Nice try, though.


Florida to Canada though...B6 has an advantage that WS and AC don't have---B6 has a new generation plane that can fly, while AC and WS went with the MAX whose reputation is severely damaged and that has been grounded since March. I see this as being highly seasonal though in the winter, to and from FLL, MCO, PBI, and RSW. It could also be a place where B6 shows off their new A220-300s as well.

I suspect that AC would be flying narrow-bodies on some of these sun routes if the MAX wasn't grounded. (AC had to ground 24 planes and WS 13.)


In peak season AC flies full 767's to Florida through Rouge. Hard to compete with that. AC has 45 A220-300's on order and are supposed to take delivery of their first A220-300 today. Also while MAX is a mess. At some point it will get resolved in the not to distant future.
 
tphuang
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:52 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
After London and Paris, YYZ/YUL are the next largest business markets out of BOS.


YYZ yes but I'm not sure about YUL business ties to BOS that create a dire need to increase air travel. There's probably a fair amount of trucking materials between YUL and BOS catchments though.

DUB FRA ZRH AMS SNN and even the destination that has failed so many times ,MEX, might have a larger business component.

O+D is not that big considering that those fall into the low fare category take bus or drive.

I find it hard to believe YUL would be smaller than MEX given that there is no flight between YUL and MEX now. YUL wouldn't be on top of their list, agreed, but it is a market they need to consider down the road.
The reality is B6 strives to be the big dog in BOS. And in order to do so, it needs to fly everywhere even if those routes lose money. otherwise, it's never going to get some of these ff that only do legacies right now. Of course, DUB, FRA and AMS are all markets they need to enter. All these are in the 2021 to 2024 range when they get A321XLR and A220. What you see this past 2 years is strengthening their existing domestic market. But once they get the right aircraft in A220 and A321XLR, they will be able to tackle some of these important international markets.

jimbo737 wrote:
WS, and AC still have lots of non-Max iron to operate YYZ-FLL. It's a Cdn originating market. Canadians will generally stick with what they know, and where they earn points. Canadians loved to be bribed with their own money.

Collecting points on B6 on their once a year flight to FLL from Canada won't amount to much. On the other hand, collecting points on AC or WS offers up countless more useful flight opportunities for Canadians for VFR flying within Canada.

jetBlue is blowing smoke.


They are not doing florida to canada. They are going to enter from Boston when they are ready. They have plenty of point of sale in BOS and frankly WS is almost non-existent there. You are making stuff up and then saying JetBlue is blowing smoke.
 
raylee67
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:58 pm

JFK-YYZ please...
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
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longhauler
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:18 pm

tphuang wrote:

They are not doing florida to canada. They are going to enter from Boston when they are ready. They have plenty of point of sale in BOS and frankly WS is almost non-existent there. You are making stuff up and then saying JetBlue is blowing smoke.


I agree. I think a lot of people here are forgetting that JetBlue has access to a market 10x that of Canada, namely the US.

I see YYZ or YUL as a reasonable guess, but don’t bemoan that there are no connection opportunities in YYZ/YUL, think about the dozens of destinations into BOS that JetBlue can offer a connection. A lot that AC does not serve. Or think about YHZ or YYT out of BOS. Maybe some O&D possibilities .....or ..... connections, from the entire US, to a very unique part of Canada.

Check out the fares from the US to Newfoundland or The Maritimes. There is room for competition there.

Also, I like the idea of using Mint to some boutique markets, like BOS/JFK-YVR. It is a very competitive product.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
escondido
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:45 pm

Depending on connection opportunities, I wonder if it would make sense to serve the biggest "underserved" Canadian airports. Perhaps YEG-LGB, YEG-JFK, and YOW-BOS, YOW-JFK. Would a codeshare with Flair Airlines help feed the JetBlue flights out of YEG, and perhaps help Flair to start serving YOW?
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:55 pm

There is one huge difference between Canada and US sun traffic. Especially for non-US sub destinations, the overwhelming majority of Canadian travellers book all inclusive travel packages, or hotel/flight packages. Most flights are charters by the tour operators, or predominantly filled by tour operators selling a whole package. As far as I understand, there is a lot less vertical integration in the US to Sun market, most travelers book accommodations and airfare separately. That means someone like JetBlue would not be able to compete against Canadian carriers to sub destinations, there is a very limited market for them trying to connect pax to vacation spots. If they are going to enter the market, it's going to have to be to high O/D routes like Boston/New York/California, which naturally feature extensive competition. Not easy.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 882
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:49 pm

Of course YYZ-BOS/JFK would be the most logical choice due to shear volume but does B6 have the right aircraft to be economically competitive on such a short routing?

As for YUL-BOS, AC is the sole carrier on the route right now with around 7 daily CR-900/DHC-400 in the summer season so I suspect there is room for competition there if the A220 can work. I suspect around 50% of the passengers are U.S. origin which would help. Of course AC could push B6 out with their own A220 so I doubt it.
As longhauler above stated, I think YYT/YHZ-FLL/JFK/BOS (and onwards) is the best bet. I suspect a lot of USA traffic from those two stations route through YUL and YYZ at high prices and circuitous connections right now.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8060
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:11 pm

longhauler wrote:
Check out the fares from the US to Newfoundland or The Maritimes. There is room for competition there.


UA dropped EWR-YYT. If United can't make YYT work from NYC with its AC tie-in, B6 isn't going to make it work from BOS or JFK.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:07 pm

There is nothing stopping B6 from announcing routes from Boston to Canada this afternoon. Same with FLL to Canada. Nada. Giddy up. Fill yer boots.

The issue is that B6 is whining about WS having 8 LGA slots which are 100% used to operate to YYZ, and have been for about 7 years, perhaps longer. WS bought them at auction for about $20m.

The whingers could have bid $21m but chose not to. Tuff luck.

JV or no JV, that route is a strategic core route for WS.

There is zero chance those slots would be “owned / controlled” by DL in a JV situation and be used for anything more than what they’re already being used for, ie YYZ-LGA, on WS or WS Encore iron.
 
Bluewho
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:58 pm

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:58 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
There is nothing stopping B6 from announcing routes from Boston to Canada this afternoon. Same with FLL to Canada. Nada. Giddy up. Fill yer boots.

The issue is that B6 is whining about WS having 8 LGA slots which are 100% used to operate to YYZ, and have been for about 7 years, perhaps longer. WS bought them at auction for about $20m.

The whingers could have bid $21m but chose not to. Tuff luck.

JV or no JV, that route is a strategic core route for WS.

There is zero chance those slots would be “owned / controlled” by DL in a JV situation and be used for anything more than what they’re already being used for, ie YYZ-LGA, on WS or WS Encore iron.



So SWA and ALK who are also not in favor of this are just whiners as well? Maybe they are worried about a lack of competition in LGA. I posted an article for you but you seem to ignore what power a JV can have.
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:45 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
There is one huge difference between Canada and US sun traffic. Especially for non-US sub destinations, the overwhelming majority of Canadian travellers book all inclusive travel packages, or hotel/flight packages. Most flights are charters by the tour operators, or predominantly filled by tour operators selling a whole package. As far as I understand, there is a lot less vertical integration in the US to Sun market, most travelers book accommodations and airfare separately. That means someone like JetBlue would not be able to compete against Canadian carriers to sub destinations, there is a very limited market for them trying to connect pax to vacation spots. If they are going to enter the market, it's going to have to be to high O/D routes like Boston/New York/California, which naturally feature extensive competition. Not easy.

I think that's true outside of Florida (though it probably would apply to MCO as well). But for a market like FLL, where many, many Quebecers own or rent some sort of place for the winter, there are still a lot of people who book flight only.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:14 am

JetBlue is not entering Canada now because it's most immediate challenge is entering Europe. It's not going to enter Europe and Canada at the same time. It doesn't have the right aircraft for YYZ right now. E90's costs are too high vs WS and isn't going to generate close the yield needed to break even vs AC's commanding presence. A320 has too many seats. A220-300 is the right aircraft. So any move will be after Europe + having enough A220s. Unless something crazy happens like DOJ requiring divestment of LGA slots to carriers willing to operate in transborder market.

After Lon/Paris, Toronto is the largest market remaining that B6 is not flying to from BOS. So to say they are not considering Toronto is crazy. They are just not ready at the moment.

JFK-YVR is probably the most likely route to succeed if they tried now due to lack of AC competition from JFK and CX's withdrawal from the market. I think mint would work great here. The problem is they are behind on A321NEO deliveries and half of those will go to Europe starting 2021. Also, they would likely enter any Canadian city from BOS first. BOS-YVR would be a hard market to crack given AC dominance.

As for B6 whining about WS getting the LGA slots, that's just completely false. WS got the 8 slots made available for new entrants in the market. B6 paid a lot more for the 8 slots it got from the same auction. It would've outbid WS for those 8 slots if it was allowed to do so.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:48 am

Bluewho wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
There is nothing stopping B6 from announcing routes from Boston to Canada this afternoon. Same with FLL to Canada. Nada. Giddy up. Fill yer boots.

The issue is that B6 is whining about WS having 8 LGA slots which are 100% used to operate to YYZ, and have been for about 7 years, perhaps longer. WS bought them at auction for about $20m.

The whingers could have bid $21m but chose not to. Tuff luck.

JV or no JV, that route is a strategic core route for WS.

There is zero chance those slots would be “owned / controlled” by DL in a JV situation and be used for anything more than what they’re already being used for, ie YYZ-LGA, on WS or WS Encore iron.



So SWA and ALK who are also not in favor of this are just whiners as well? Maybe they are worried about a lack of competition in LGA. I posted an article for you but you seem to ignore what power a JV can have.


How would taking WS’s piddling 8 slots, all to YYZ, the largest transborder o&d market, help competitiveness when DL is barely in the market themselves, AC has a massive dominance and Porter has a monopoly from the US to YTZ?

Are you suggesting AS intends on operating LGA to YYZ with virtually no feed?

Or Southwest wants to operate trans border flights, with the idea they’ll find people dumb enough to want to fly YYZ - LGA - to Florida, using possibly the worst connecting airport in the Americas? I doubt it.

And why focus on WS’s 8 slots that provide much needed competition in that key transborder market. Delta has quite a few more than WS........

Walkup one way fares dropped from $700 on AC and Porter to about $250 when WS entered that market years ago. Same on YYZ - BOS.

If you’re wondering what fares would look like without WS in that market, take a look at what a walkup fare looks like in YYZ to Chicago these days.

Competition works. WS IS the competition.

It’s all very high and pious, but ham handed attempts at forcing tiny WS off one of the key business routes from YYZ, although desirable from the competitions perspective, is not going to happen.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:53 am

JetBlue could provide EK feed in BOS/NYC by flying from Canadian cities that EK can't get their hands on.
 
YYZatcboy
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:15 am

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:36 am

Dieuwer wrote:
JetBlue could provide EK feed in BOS/NYC by flying from Canadian cities that EK can't get their hands on.


Westjet already does this providing lift to YYZ. No need to cross into the USA to connect to EK either.

https://www.emirates.com/ca/english/des ... stjet.aspx
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:28 pm

YYZatcboy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
JetBlue could provide EK feed in BOS/NYC by flying from Canadian cities that EK can't get their hands on.


Westjet already does this providing lift to YYZ. No need to cross into the USA to connect to EK either.

https://www.emirates.com/ca/english/des ... stjet.aspx


Delta will order Westjet to drop EK.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2812
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:07 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Bluewho wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
There is nothing stopping B6 from announcing routes from Boston to Canada this afternoon. Same with FLL to Canada. Nada. Giddy up. Fill yer boots.

The issue is that B6 is whining about WS having 8 LGA slots which are 100% used to operate to YYZ, and have been for about 7 years, perhaps longer. WS bought them at auction for about $20m.

The whingers could have bid $21m but chose not to. Tuff luck.

JV or no JV, that route is a strategic core route for WS.

There is zero chance those slots would be “owned / controlled” by DL in a JV situation and be used for anything more than what they’re already being used for, ie YYZ-LGA, on WS or WS Encore iron.



So SWA and ALK who are also not in favor of this are just whiners as well? Maybe they are worried about a lack of competition in LGA. I posted an article for you but you seem to ignore what power a JV can have.


How would taking WS’s piddling 8 slots, all to YYZ, the largest transborder o&d market, help competitiveness when DL is barely in the market themselves, AC has a massive dominance and Porter has a monopoly from the US to YTZ?

Are you suggesting AS intends on operating LGA to YYZ with virtually no feed?

Or Southwest wants to operate trans border flights, with the idea they’ll find people dumb enough to want to fly YYZ - LGA - to Florida, using possibly the worst connecting airport in the Americas? I doubt it.

And why focus on WS’s 8 slots that provide much needed competition in that key transborder market. Delta has quite a few more than WS........

Walkup one way fares dropped from $700 on AC and Porter to about $250 when WS entered that market years ago. Same on YYZ - BOS.

If you’re wondering what fares would look like without WS in that market, take a look at what a walkup fare looks like in YYZ to Chicago these days.

Competition works. WS IS the competition.

It’s all very high and pious, but ham handed attempts at forcing tiny WS off one of the key business routes from YYZ, although desirable from the competitions perspective, is not going to happen.


I fully agree with everything you said here Jimbo. Even with a JV approval, WS’ 8 LGA slots still bring more competition to than WN or B6 using on a US domestic flight. Their argument is so weak here it’s laughable.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:25 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
Bluewho wrote:


So SWA and ALK who are also not in favor of this are just whiners as well? Maybe they are worried about a lack of competition in LGA. I posted an article for you but you seem to ignore what power a JV can have.


How would taking WS’s piddling 8 slots, all to YYZ, the largest transborder o&d market, help competitiveness when DL is barely in the market themselves, AC has a massive dominance and Porter has a monopoly from the US to YTZ?

Are you suggesting AS intends on operating LGA to YYZ with virtually no feed?

Or Southwest wants to operate trans border flights, with the idea they’ll find people dumb enough to want to fly YYZ - LGA - to Florida, using possibly the worst connecting airport in the Americas? I doubt it.

And why focus on WS’s 8 slots that provide much needed competition in that key transborder market. Delta has quite a few more than WS........

Walkup one way fares dropped from $700 on AC and Porter to about $250 when WS entered that market years ago. Same on YYZ - BOS.

If you’re wondering what fares would look like without WS in that market, take a look at what a walkup fare looks like in YYZ to Chicago these days.

Competition works. WS IS the competition.

It’s all very high and pious, but ham handed attempts at forcing tiny WS off one of the key business routes from YYZ, although desirable from the competitions perspective, is not going to happen.


I fully agree with everything you said here Jimbo. Even with a JV approval, WS’ 8 LGA slots still bring more competition to than WN or B6 using on a US domestic flight. Their argument is so weak here it’s laughable.


definitely not laughable. Those slots were originally allocated to be taken away from DL to provide additional competition in LGA. With JV, those are effectively flying DL routes. Whether its DL metal or not is irrelevant. DL is far and away the largest slot holder in LGA. If it wants to fly YYZ-LGA, it can use its own slots. It will have no problem finding that.

and you have no prove WN/B6 somehow would not bring more competition on a domestic flight. Anyone that has looked at LGA routes without LCC competition can see how ridiculous those fares are. Imagine if B6 had enough slots to actually offer a competitive LGA-BOS schedule. How much would fares collapse in that market. Or if WN had more slots to offer more competitive schedule in any number of its large stations, how much that would help lower some of these ridiculous fares. And there are many routes out of LGA it could do that on.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 882
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:06 pm

Interesting about the LGA slot prices for WS. Maybe a compromise would be to charge WS an "increment" to bring their slot prices up to the level that DL paid (including say 3% interest) during the same auction? Sounds like WS got a special deal that should no longer apply?
 
TObound
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Canada Could Be JetBlue’s Next International Destination

Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:06 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Florida to Canada though...B6 has an advantage that WS and AC don't have---B6 has a new generation plane that can fly, while AC and WS went with the MAX whose reputation is severely damaged and that has been grounded since March. I see this as being highly seasonal though in the winter, to and from FLL, MCO, PBI, and RSW. It could also be a place where B6 shows off their new A220-300s as well.


I don't see the advantage on this one.....

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... -a220.html

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