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Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:47 pm

Amazon Inc. is expanding its domestic airfreight operation, hiring low-cost carrier Sun Country Airlines to operate 10 Boeing Co. cargo jets to bolster next-day shipping. Hiring Minneapolis-based Sun Country, which expects to carry four million passengers this year, adds to Amazon’s team of domestic cargo partners: Air Transport Services Group Inc. and Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings Inc.

Sun Country Chief Executive Jude Bricker, who joined Sun Country in 2017 from Allegiant Travel Co. , said the move into air cargo will balance lulls in the carrier’s passenger and charter business, which is focused on carrying travelers from the Twin Cities to sunshine destinations. The passenger market cools each fall, just as the air cargo market peaks ahead of the holiday season.

Amazon will receive warrants to acquire a minority stake in Sun Country, which was bought two years ago by Apollo Global Management Inc., similar to its deals with Atlas and ATSG.


Amazon Looks to Sun Country to Boost Its Cargo Unit
https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-loo ... 1576621801

=

Quite an interesting move. Helps diversify SY revenues and lessen seasonality of its passenger business.
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enilria
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:59 pm

I haven’t read the paywall article, but:
1) one of the SY execs went to Amazon Prime Air about a year ago.
2) It sounds like this will be pulling resources from scheduled ops judging from the reference to balancing flying from Summer to Winter.

I see this as ominously negative for domestic passenger competition. Good business for SY though.
Last edited by enilria on Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:00 pm

It does help from a pilot staffing POV It doesn’t help with FA or underwing staffing much and certainly doesn’t help increase pax asset utilization. The freighter and pax planes are not interchangeable.

That said, this does seem like a good move assuming the pilots can be simultaneously type rated for both the 738 pax and 738F freighters on their AOC. Pretty big warning shot to traditional freight companies with Amazon taking partial ownership.
 
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enilria
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
It does help from a pilot staffing POV It doesn’t help with FA or underwing staffing much and certainly doesn’t help increase pax asset utilization. The freighter and pax planes are not interchangeable.

That said, this does seem like a good move assuming the pilots can be simultaneously type rated for both the 738 pax and 738F freighters on their AOC. Pretty big warning shot to traditional freight companies with Amazon taking partial ownership.

I don’t really understand how this would work if the passenger fleet isn’t being reduced. Amazon’s cargo business peaks from Thanksgiving to Jan1. That’s only a 5 week window. I don’t really understand how this makes sense from a resource balance issue unless they trash aircraft utilization on both fleets in each’s off season.
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:04 pm

enilria wrote:
I haven’t read the paywall article, but:
1) one of the SY execs went to Amazon Prime Air about a year ago.
2) It sounds like this will be pulling resources from scheduled ops judging from the reference to balancing flying from Summer to Winter.

I see this as ominously negative for domestic passenger competition. Good business for SY though.


How is this a negative? The article says that SY is going to add 150 pilots to support the operation. This diversifies SY's revenue stream, adds a minority owner with some of the deepest pockets on the planet, and secures jobs for all of the people who will support the additional headaches of a cargo operation.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
sxf24
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:19 pm

enilria wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
It does help from a pilot staffing POV It doesn’t help with FA or underwing staffing much and certainly doesn’t help increase pax asset utilization. The freighter and pax planes are not interchangeable.

That said, this does seem like a good move assuming the pilots can be simultaneously type rated for both the 738 pax and 738F freighters on their AOC. Pretty big warning shot to traditional freight companies with Amazon taking partial ownership.

I don’t really understand how this would work if the passenger fleet isn’t being reduced. Amazon’s cargo business peaks from Thanksgiving to Jan1. That’s only a 5 week window. I don’t really understand how this makes sense from a resource balance issue unless they trash aircraft utilization on both fleets in each’s off season.


I imagine SY will continue to lease pax airplanes from HV during the summer. There will still be shoulder seasons, but this allows SY to more effectively recruit pilots by providing a more stable schedule.
 
lessredtape
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:44 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
enilria wrote:
I don’t really understand how this would work if the passenger fleet isn’t being reduced. Amazon’s cargo business peaks from Thanksgiving to Jan1. That’s only a 5 week window. I don’t really understand how this makes sense from a resource balance issue unless they trash aircraft utilization on both fleets in each’s off season.


I imagine SY will continue to lease pax airplanes from HV during the summer. There will still be shoulder seasons, but this allows SY to more effectively recruit pilots by providing a more stable schedule.


A bottom tier 737 operator will do no better at recruiting pilots than Atlas and the ATSG airlines are doing. Horribly, there simply isn't a reason to fly for these carriers with the market the way it is.
with worldwide recession hurting airlines everywhere & looking like getting much, much worse, there must be a lot of 737 pilots looking for work. Last I heard, Australian pilots can easily work in USA. Not sure about rest of world.

The old 737-300 quick change aircraft would sound perfect for such an operation or are there newer versions around ?

737-800 QCs ? Boeing must be desperately looking for orders from anywhere ?

Thinking outside the box, could a 737 max be easily converted to a QC ?
 
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DL747400
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:03 am

airtran737 wrote:
How is this a negative? The article says that SY is going to add 150 pilots to support the operation. This diversifies SY's revenue stream, adds a minority owner with some of the deepest pockets on the planet, and secures jobs for all of the people who will support the additional headaches of a cargo operation.


The post to which you refer is from a "sky is falling" type. Everything is always bad for the consumer, will result in a decrease on competition, etc. Take it with a grain of salt.

The rest of us can view this more rationally and see this as being potentially good for both Amazon and for SY, with no impact on the passenger side of the business and no negative impact on the consumer or on competition.
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enilria
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:43 am

airtran737 wrote:
enilria wrote:
I haven’t read the paywall article, but:
1) one of the SY execs went to Amazon Prime Air about a year ago.
2) It sounds like this will be pulling resources from scheduled ops judging from the reference to balancing flying from Summer to Winter.

I see this as ominously negative for domestic passenger competition. Good business for SY though.


How is this a negative? The article says that SY is going to add 150 pilots to support the operation. This diversifies SY's revenue stream, adds a minority owner with some of the deepest pockets on the planet, and secures jobs for all of the people who will support the additional headaches of a cargo operation.

Not negative for SY. Negative for passenger competition in the USA.

> the move into air cargo will balance lulls in the carrier’s passenger and charter business, which is focused on carrying travelers from the Twin Cities to sunshine destinations. The passenger market cools each fall, just as the air cargo market peaks ahead of the holiday season.

There is no way to "balance lulls" without pulling resources from the passenger side in the Winter. That's what that means. Fewer SY passenger ops in the Winter. I don't see how it means more SY passenger ops in the Summer because Amazon still wants their 737 freighters flying in the Summer. The logical impact will be less SY passenger flying in Winter.

Frankly, I expect they have already discussed transitioning completely into only cargo, although I imagine that is more of a "wait and see how this works" kind of a discussion at this point. A guaranteed margin looks pretty good to a company looking to IPO. So, again, great for SY, negative to passenger competition.
 
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enilria
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:45 am

DL747400 wrote:
The rest of us can view this more rationally and see this as being potentially good for both Amazon and for SY, with no impact on the passenger side of the business and no negative impact on the consumer or on competition.

Yes, it is good for SY for the third time.
>the move into air cargo will balance lulls in the carrier’s passenger and charter business
Except, that means less passenger flying in Winter.
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:49 am

enilria wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
It does help from a pilot staffing POV It doesn’t help with FA or underwing staffing much and certainly doesn’t help increase pax asset utilization. The freighter and pax planes are not interchangeable.

That said, this does seem like a good move assuming the pilots can be simultaneously type rated for both the 738 pax and 738F freighters on their AOC. Pretty big warning shot to traditional freight companies with Amazon taking partial ownership.

I don’t really understand how this would work if the passenger fleet isn’t being reduced. Amazon’s cargo business peaks from Thanksgiving to Jan1. That’s only a 5 week window. I don’t really understand how this makes sense from a resource balance issue unless they trash aircraft utilization on both fleets in each’s off season.


It's just executive hyperbole. Amazon tries to keep its network pretty-stable through Peak, and these aircraft will in any event be flying routes every day. Total crap? No. But it's the kind of "synergy" nonsense that executives spout during mergers -- stuff that will cause the public who doesn't understand the operation to go, "Oh, that makes sense," when it really doesn't.
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:56 am

I'm actually surprised that with nearly 5,000 B738s built and hardly any scrapped, that someone doesn't consider a QC or a combi conversion, given the feedstock available. Then again, with B738s in heavier demand with the extended MAX grounding, that may need to wait.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:02 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that with nearly 5,000 B738s built and hardly any scrapped, that someone doesn't consider a QC or a combi conversion, given the feedstock available. Then again, with B738s in heavier demand with the extended MAX grounding, that may need to wait.


I don't know what demand there really is for either configuration. Only ATI runs 757 combis, and they are an equivalent and more-versatile workhorse. PEMCO does have a 737-700 "flex combi" and straight-combi conversion, but it isn't exactly bringing down the house with orders.

Somebody at PEMCO thinks there is a demand for them, apparently, and they doubtless know more about that market than I, so I guess we'll see.
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:28 am

Amazon will pivot and buy SY. Start to book flights to resorts. Prime travel... move into the travel space
 
32andBelow
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:40 am

enilria wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
enilria wrote:
I haven’t read the paywall article, but:
1) one of the SY execs went to Amazon Prime Air about a year ago.
2) It sounds like this will be pulling resources from scheduled ops judging from the reference to balancing flying from Summer to Winter.

I see this as ominously negative for domestic passenger competition. Good business for SY though.


How is this a negative? The article says that SY is going to add 150 pilots to support the operation. This diversifies SY's revenue stream, adds a minority owner with some of the deepest pockets on the planet, and secures jobs for all of the people who will support the additional headaches of a cargo operation.

Not negative for SY. Negative for passenger competition in the USA.

> the move into air cargo will balance lulls in the carrier’s passenger and charter business, which is focused on carrying travelers from the Twin Cities to sunshine destinations. The passenger market cools each fall, just as the air cargo market peaks ahead of the holiday season.

There is no way to "balance lulls" without pulling resources from the passenger side in the Winter. That's what that means. Fewer SY passenger ops in the Winter. I don't see how it means more SY passenger ops in the Summer because Amazon still wants their 737 freighters flying in the Summer. The logical impact will be less SY passenger flying in Winter.

Frankly, I expect they have already discussed transitioning completely into only cargo, although I imagine that is more of a "wait and see how this works" kind of a discussion at this point. A guaranteed margin looks pretty good to a company looking to IPO. So, again, great for SY, negative to passenger competition.

I read it as balancing cash flows. These small arlines have a much harder time paying loans and fuel bills during slow periods. Big checks from amazon will help
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:41 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that with nearly 5,000 B738s built and hardly any scrapped, that someone doesn't consider a QC or a combi conversion, given the feedstock available. Then again, with B738s in heavier demand with the extended MAX grounding, that may need to wait.

The Faa isn’t going to approve any more combis. Quick change could maybe be possible.
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:52 am

so, behind the paywall, are they simply leasing the pilots?? Or are they simply thinking they will belly-load the 738's and upstairs flies empty with seats? or am i missing something?
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:01 am

Interesting... does this mean that SY will make a base at CVG? If so, does this mean that passenger flights will begin with said base?
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:06 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Interesting... does this mean that SY will make a base at CVG? If so, does this mean that passenger flights will begin with said base?


Pax Ops will be separate of Cargo Ops still, with pilots, MX and headquarters being the only real overlapping segments. What you need for passenger service is completely different than what you need for cargo.

This does pose the question though; how long till Amazon runs a test to put 1,000 lbs of packages on a pax flight in the hold of a regular SY pax flight to help get packages from point A to point B?
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
CALMSP
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:09 am

alasizon wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Interesting... does this mean that SY will make a base at CVG? If so, does this mean that passenger flights will begin with said base?


Pax Ops will be separate of Cargo Ops still, with pilots, MX and headquarters being the only real overlapping segments. What you need for passenger service is completely different than what you need for cargo.

This does pose the question though; how long till Amazon runs a test to put 1,000 lbs of packages on a pax flight in the hold of a regular SY pax flight to help get packages from point A to point B?


no kidding. I have a buddy who works in IAH and said they were not loading the bellies and they were flying empty. So wierd what will happen with SY. I texted him if he heard anything but he hadnt.
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:59 am

Flying cargo jets at SY is nothing new. They did it before flying DC-10 for another carrier. Plus at Christmas time back in the day they flew a pax DC-10 full of mail sacks OAK-HNL back in the 1990's
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:06 am

Blueknows wrote:
Amazon will pivot and buy SY. Start to book flights to resorts. Prime travel... move into the travel space


SY does that now.
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:50 am

Trust me AMAZON will use SY to be able to get AOC. They can then do PRIME AIR with own planes, and then you will see prime vacations. Amazon will totally change the aviation space. Custom AMAZON vacation packages, and have a fully owned cargo company.
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:56 am

http://m.startribune.com/sun-country-wi ... 566286912/

Here is a MSP based article. No paywall unless you've happened to browse their site a while.

Looks like SYs union is onboard and this will ultimately account for 20% of SYs flying with 20% charters and 60% scheduled service.

Will be flying conversion freighters.
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:58 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Interesting... does this mean that SY will make a base at CVG? If so, does this mean that passenger flights will begin with said base?


Still MSP based crew
 
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:33 am

Amazon Sun, Prime Holidays, you read it here first.
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Upcoming 2018: STL, MIA, BZE, IAH, BHM, LHR, DFW, PHX
 
TW870
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:41 am

enilria wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
enilria wrote:
I haven’t read the paywall article, but:
1) one of the SY execs went to Amazon Prime Air about a year ago.
2) It sounds like this will be pulling resources from scheduled ops judging from the reference to balancing flying from Summer to Winter.

I see this as ominously negative for domestic passenger competition. Good business for SY though.


How is this a negative? The article says that SY is going to add 150 pilots to support the operation. This diversifies SY's revenue stream, adds a minority owner with some of the deepest pockets on the planet, and secures jobs for all of the people who will support the additional headaches of a cargo operation.

Not negative for SY. Negative for passenger competition in the USA.

> the move into air cargo will balance lulls in the carrier’s passenger and charter business, which is focused on carrying travelers from the Twin Cities to sunshine destinations. The passenger market cools each fall, just as the air cargo market peaks ahead of the holiday season.

There is no way to "balance lulls" without pulling resources from the passenger side in the Winter. That's what that means. Fewer SY passenger ops in the Winter. I don't see how it means more SY passenger ops in the Summer because Amazon still wants their 737 freighters flying in the Summer. The logical impact will be less SY passenger flying in Winter.

Frankly, I expect they have already discussed transitioning completely into only cargo, although I imagine that is more of a "wait and see how this works" kind of a discussion at this point. A guaranteed margin looks pretty good to a company looking to IPO. So, again, great for SY, negative to passenger competition.


But "winter" in Minneapolis is narrower than you are making it. Beach traffic doesn't pick up until after the new year, and is particularly heavy in the coldest period which bleeds into spring break (Feb-March). The sun destinations are slower across the holiday season. As I read it, they pick up the converted freighters and 150 pilots. That operation will be neutral to the passenger operation except for during the Nov-Dec peak, when intensified utilization will increase average pilot line values for the whole operation. The passenger operation, likewise, will increase average line values in the summer and Feb-March. Yes, maybe they will slow a few things down in November - but again, that is generally very, very slow in Minneapolis - and they can't fill the vacation spots during that period anyway.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:47 am

Wow, who among us would have guessed when Amazon started 737 flying that Sun Country and Mesa Airlines would be operating some of them? Very interesting news.
 
JayWings
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:50 am

I’m a little curious if Alaska was ever considered for this contract? They’re SEA based and currently operate a 737 cargo operation. It seems like an obvious partnership to me.

It will be interesting to see if Amazon does ultimately take over Sun Country and create a Prime Air/Vacations/Cargo operation.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:52 am

Lots of misinformation in this thread.

So -- Amazon currently has a deal with GECAS to dry-lease 20 737-800BCFs. Five have been completed and delivered.

ALL of these were originally expected to be operated by Southern Air, which is a subsidiary of AAWW, which also owns Atlas Air. Amazon has warrants for stock of AAWW. Atlas operates 17 (down from 20) of Amazon's 767-300s, 20 of which Amazon leased from a leasing company also owned by AAWW. When Amazon did the GECAS deal, everyone realized that Southern flew 737 freighters (737-400s for DHL). Amazon cut a deal with Southern to fly some or all of its 737-800s that Amazon was dry-leasing from GECAS.

Amazon dry-leases ("owns") the aircraft, and Southern flies them on a CMI agreement. Simple.

But labor relations at AAWW are beyond terrible. They have little ability to hire adequate pilots, even with a very-low bar. It's a mess. Southern was having trouble operating even 4 737-800s for Amazon, and certainly couldn't grow their utilization the way Amazon might want. So there were rumours that Amazon was exploring bringing in another operator, even for the existing 5. Mesa was discussed. Swift was discussed. Northern Air Cargo, which did the original Project Alpha 737 experiment for Amazon years ago, was rumoured. And on and on. This gave Southern time to realize that it needed to get its act together. It didn't.

So...now we have the deal with Sun Country. They will fly 10 aircraft dry-leased by Amazon. They will do this under a CMI agreement. Who gets the final 5 isn't clear at the moment, nor should it be.

There is ZERO discussion of Amazon buying Sun Country or getting into the vacation business. You need to start with a big fortune to end up with small fortune in the airline business. No reason whatsoever for Amazon to think about doing that.

And don't buy into this "balancing the seasons" crap. If they're talking about pilot utilization, maybe a teeny bit at the margins, but the Amazon Air operation is year-round. And Peak goes well into January because people continue to order stuff after Christmas, to get deals and also to replace stuff they have returned. It's just talk. None of that is driving the deal. To have a well-capitalized, well-managed airline with a happy workforce that can expand by 25 percent over the next X months operating their planes is why this deal was done.
Last edited by wjcandee on Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 am

Sun Country I think will make a good business decision in doing the freight. This will add profits an equalize revenues for them. though? It will stretch their resources in Manpower and equipment as you'd have one Day Centric operation and one Evening Centric operation, And it might be a struggle to find the initial balance between the two operationally and Logistically in dispatch, Ramp etc, I once worked for a freight carrier with 8 DC9's We had 3 man teams for each airplanes and we operated 6 da week. Other than Engine changes and C-checks? eqch station handled their own work but we gang banged any extraordinary loads with all hands on Deck at whatever station needed the help. Sometines we had to work all 7 days but it wasn't that often, Suffice to say? It can be handled but it will Need to be ,managed and Carefully. Especially the Pilot Group.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:03 am

tys777 wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Interesting... does this mean that SY will make a base at CVG? If so, does this mean that passenger flights will begin with said base?


Still MSP based crew


Good luck with that. It will be interesting to see how they work that out. But like I say, with good labor relations, they should be able to work together to find a solution.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:03 am

Blueknows wrote:
Trust me AMAZON will use SY to be able to get AOC. They can then do PRIME AIR with own planes, and then you will see prime vacations. Amazon will totally change the aviation space. Custom AMAZON vacation packages, and have a fully owned cargo company.

No they won’t. Amazon hates labor unions more than anything in this world. By wholly owning SY they are inviting unions into their business. They also lose the flexibility of moving work to other carriers like they’re doing here because they then take a hit.

Everyone seems to love the idea that Amazon will buy up a major carrier or freight company, but it will never happen. They love to be in control of all their carriers and contractors. By buying a union company they are giving up that control.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
KFTG
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:08 am

timpdx wrote:
Amazon Sun, Prime Holidays, you read it here first.

Actually I read it a few replies prior but anyway yeah, I think you're right. Amazon even wants into the ISP business.
Eventually they will move to bring Atlas and ATI in house.
 
tys777
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Sun Country I think will make a good business decision in doing the freight. This will add profits an equalize revenues for them. though? It will stretch their resources in Manpower and equipment as you'd have one Day Centric operation and one Evening Centric operation, And it might be a struggle to find the initial balance between the two operationally and Logistically in dispatch, Ramp etc, I once worked for a freight carrier with 8 DC9's We had 3 man teams for each airplanes and we operated 6 da week. Other than Engine changes and C-checks? eqch station handled their own work but we gang banged any extraordinary loads with all hands on Deck at whatever station needed the help. Sometines we had to work all 7 days but it wasn't that often, Suffice to say? It can be handled but it will Need to be ,managed and Carefully. Especially the Pilot Group.


Point of clarity, no impact on ramp as SY wont be leading or unloading. Also, they already have overnight dispatch with a decent amount of red eye business and charters that return middle of night.

Other than the outsourcing ramp issue a year ago, SY is/was well run on the ops side. I'm sure they can absorb this business over time.
 
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enilria
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:15 pm

32andBelow wrote:
enilria wrote:
airtran737 wrote:

How is this a negative? The article says that SY is going to add 150 pilots to support the operation. This diversifies SY's revenue stream, adds a minority owner with some of the deepest pockets on the planet, and secures jobs for all of the people who will support the additional headaches of a cargo operation.

Not negative for SY. Negative for passenger competition in the USA.

> the move into air cargo will balance lulls in the carrier’s passenger and charter business, which is focused on carrying travelers from the Twin Cities to sunshine destinations. The passenger market cools each fall, just as the air cargo market peaks ahead of the holiday season.

There is no way to "balance lulls" without pulling resources from the passenger side in the Winter. That's what that means. Fewer SY passenger ops in the Winter. I don't see how it means more SY passenger ops in the Summer because Amazon still wants their 737 freighters flying in the Summer. The logical impact will be less SY passenger flying in Winter.

Frankly, I expect they have already discussed transitioning completely into only cargo, although I imagine that is more of a "wait and see how this works" kind of a discussion at this point. A guaranteed margin looks pretty good to a company looking to IPO. So, again, great for SY, negative to passenger competition.

I read it as balancing cash flows. These small arlines have a much harder time paying loans and fuel bills during slow periods. Big checks from amazon will help

Perhaps, but I think the more obvious reading would refer to operationally.
 
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enilria
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:19 pm

TW870 wrote:
enilria wrote:
airtran737 wrote:

How is this a negative? The article says that SY is going to add 150 pilots to support the operation. This diversifies SY's revenue stream, adds a minority owner with some of the deepest pockets on the planet, and secures jobs for all of the people who will support the additional headaches of a cargo operation.

Not negative for SY. Negative for passenger competition in the USA.

> the move into air cargo will balance lulls in the carrier’s passenger and charter business, which is focused on carrying travelers from the Twin Cities to sunshine destinations. The passenger market cools each fall, just as the air cargo market peaks ahead of the holiday season.

There is no way to "balance lulls" without pulling resources from the passenger side in the Winter. That's what that means. Fewer SY passenger ops in the Winter. I don't see how it means more SY passenger ops in the Summer because Amazon still wants their 737 freighters flying in the Summer. The logical impact will be less SY passenger flying in Winter.

Frankly, I expect they have already discussed transitioning completely into only cargo, although I imagine that is more of a "wait and see how this works" kind of a discussion at this point. A guaranteed margin looks pretty good to a company looking to IPO. So, again, great for SY, negative to passenger competition.


But "winter" in Minneapolis is narrower than you are making it. Beach traffic doesn't pick up until after the new year, and is particularly heavy in the coldest period which bleeds into spring break (Feb-March). The sun destinations are slower across the holiday season. As I read it, they pick up the converted freighters and 150 pilots. That operation will be neutral to the passenger operation except for during the Nov-Dec peak, when intensified utilization will increase average pilot line values for the whole operation. The passenger operation, likewise, will increase average line values in the summer and Feb-March. Yes, maybe they will slow a few things down in November - but again, that is generally very, very slow in Minneapolis - and they can't fill the vacation spots during that period anyway.

Here's how the Amazon deal will work. 10 months per year those 737 freighters will fly the same utilization. 2 months per year those planes will probably be flying as hard as possible. Also, they would not acquire these freighters to let them sit. There isn't really a lull for Amazon, there's just a Holiday peak. So, Amazon will not create surplus pilots for SY, it will only take away pilots in the NOV-DEC period, and potentially more than that because Amazon keeps growing. There's also Prime Day which is in the middle of SY's pax peak season and is another peak for Amazon.
 
oflanigan
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:34 pm

An airline that offers a rewards program that earns Prime points vs. miles would likely be more valuable to most consumers.
 
Airbuser
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:59 pm

Will SY be able to attract pilots? Pay is really lagging there. If SY was smart they would throw the pilots a mid contract pay raise.
 
Airbuser
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:07 pm

Pilot Captain pay by hour. UPS 327/hr, FedEx 280/hr, sun Country 202/hr, Atlas 179/hr on the 767. Clearly Amazon is exploiting cost differences. Wow.
 
TW870
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:49 pm

enilria wrote:
TW870 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Not negative for SY. Negative for passenger competition in the USA.

> the move into air cargo will balance lulls in the carrier’s passenger and charter business, which is focused on carrying travelers from the Twin Cities to sunshine destinations. The passenger market cools each fall, just as the air cargo market peaks ahead of the holiday season.

There is no way to "balance lulls" without pulling resources from the passenger side in the Winter. That's what that means. Fewer SY passenger ops in the Winter. I don't see how it means more SY passenger ops in the Summer because Amazon still wants their 737 freighters flying in the Summer. The logical impact will be less SY passenger flying in Winter.

Frankly, I expect they have already discussed transitioning completely into only cargo, although I imagine that is more of a "wait and see how this works" kind of a discussion at this point. A guaranteed margin looks pretty good to a company looking to IPO. So, again, great for SY, negative to passenger competition.


But "winter" in Minneapolis is narrower than you are making it. Beach traffic doesn't pick up until after the new year, and is particularly heavy in the coldest period which bleeds into spring break (Feb-March). The sun destinations are slower across the holiday season. As I read it, they pick up the converted freighters and 150 pilots. That operation will be neutral to the passenger operation except for during the Nov-Dec peak, when intensified utilization will increase average pilot line values for the whole operation. The passenger operation, likewise, will increase average line values in the summer and Feb-March. Yes, maybe they will slow a few things down in November - but again, that is generally very, very slow in Minneapolis - and they can't fill the vacation spots during that period anyway.

Here's how the Amazon deal will work. 10 months per year those 737 freighters will fly the same utilization. 2 months per year those planes will probably be flying as hard as possible. Also, they would not acquire these freighters to let them sit. There isn't really a lull for Amazon, there's just a Holiday peak. So, Amazon will not create surplus pilots for SY, it will only take away pilots in the NOV-DEC period, and potentially more than that because Amazon keeps growing. There's also Prime Day which is in the middle of SY's pax peak season and is another peak for Amazon.


Right, agree with all of that. But I just don't see your point that it will force a capacity reduction on the pax operation. The 150 pilots staff the 10 738Fs at the operational scale that they operate for the 10 months of the year. For the two busier months, you eliminate pilot vacation offerings, and you increase average line values accross the system. You can also offer incentive pay for pickups. It is exactly how every passenger airline runs their operation. Delta has 6 spare A330s on the ground right now and 2 at MSP in overhaul. In the summer, they have zero spares - so a net of eight additional aircraft to staff. How do they do it? Increase average line values, no vacation awards, and incentive pickups. Sun country does it now for the summer, and they will do it again for the new peak. But in fact it is easier for the NOV-DEC peak because you already have super low average line values for the passenger operation. If you bump line averages for both the passenger and freight op, you can come up with a lot of hours without having to trim pax flying.
 
Bricktop
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:27 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Lots of misinformation in this thread.

So -- Amazon currently has a deal with GECAS to dry-lease 20 737-800BCFs. Five have been completed and delivered.

ALL of these were originally expected to be operated by Southern Air, which is a subsidiary of AAWW, which also owns Atlas Air. Amazon has warrants for stock of AAWW. Atlas operates 17 (down from 20) of Amazon's 767-300s, 20 of which Amazon leased from a leasing company also owned by AAWW. When Amazon did the GECAS deal, everyone realized that Southern flew 737 freighters (737-400s for DHL). Amazon cut a deal with Southern to fly some or all of its 737-800s that Amazon was dry-leasing from GECAS.

Amazon dry-leases ("owns") the aircraft, and Southern flies them on a CMI agreement. Simple.

But labor relations at AAWW are beyond terrible. They have little ability to hire adequate pilots, even with a very-low bar. It's a mess. Southern was having trouble operating even 4 737-800s for Amazon, and certainly couldn't grow their utilization the way Amazon might want. So there were rumours that Amazon was exploring bringing in another operator, even for the existing 5. Mesa was discussed. Swift was discussed. Northern Air Cargo, which did the original Project Alpha 737 experiment for Amazon years ago, was rumoured. And on and on. This gave Southern time to realize that it needed to get its act together. It didn't.

So...now we have the deal with Sun Country. They will fly 10 aircraft dry-leased by Amazon. They will do this under a CMI agreement. Who gets the final 5 isn't clear at the moment, nor should it be.

There is ZERO discussion of Amazon buying Sun Country or getting into the vacation business. You need to start with a big fortune to end up with small fortune in the airline business. No reason whatsoever for Amazon to think about doing that.

And don't buy into this "balancing the seasons" crap. If they're talking about pilot utilization, maybe a teeny bit at the margins, but the Amazon Air operation is year-round. And Peak goes well into January because people continue to order stuff after Christmas, to get deals and also to replace stuff they have returned. It's just talk. None of that is driving the deal. To have a well-capitalized, well-managed airline with a happy workforce that can expand by 25 percent over the next X months operating their planes is why this deal was done.

Thanks for this post. Your last paragraph I believe is spot on. Amazon has a holiday peak for sure, but their base load is pretty strong also.
 
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enilria
Posts: 10274
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Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:31 pm

TW870 wrote:
enilria wrote:
TW870 wrote:

But "winter" in Minneapolis is narrower than you are making it. Beach traffic doesn't pick up until after the new year, and is particularly heavy in the coldest period which bleeds into spring break (Feb-March). The sun destinations are slower across the holiday season. As I read it, they pick up the converted freighters and 150 pilots. That operation will be neutral to the passenger operation except for during the Nov-Dec peak, when intensified utilization will increase average pilot line values for the whole operation. The passenger operation, likewise, will increase average line values in the summer and Feb-March. Yes, maybe they will slow a few things down in November - but again, that is generally very, very slow in Minneapolis - and they can't fill the vacation spots during that period anyway.

Here's how the Amazon deal will work. 10 months per year those 737 freighters will fly the same utilization. 2 months per year those planes will probably be flying as hard as possible. Also, they would not acquire these freighters to let them sit. There isn't really a lull for Amazon, there's just a Holiday peak. So, Amazon will not create surplus pilots for SY, it will only take away pilots in the NOV-DEC period, and potentially more than that because Amazon keeps growing. There's also Prime Day which is in the middle of SY's pax peak season and is another peak for Amazon.


Right, agree with all of that. But I just don't see your point that it will force a capacity reduction on the pax operation. The 150 pilots staff the 10 738Fs at the operational scale that they operate for the 10 months of the year. For the two busier months, you eliminate pilot vacation offerings, and you increase average line values accross the system. You can also offer incentive pay for pickups. It is exactly how every passenger airline runs their operation. Delta has 6 spare A330s on the ground right now and 2 at MSP in overhaul. In the summer, they have zero spares - so a net of eight additional aircraft to staff. How do they do it? Increase average line values, no vacation awards, and incentive pickups. Sun country does it now for the summer, and they will do it again for the new peak. But in fact it is easier for the NOV-DEC peak because you already have super low average line values for the passenger operation. If you bump line averages for both the passenger and freight op, you can come up with a lot of hours without having to trim pax flying.

I think there are three factors that are worrisome for the future of the passenger operation:
1) If SY were profitable now to any real extent they would have already IPO'd. We also know (pretty well known in the industry) WN looked at buying SY just for the planes. We don't know why that didn't happen, but it was likely DOJ concerns. All that tells me that if a guaranteed margin freighter business takes hold it will eventually be an easy decision to switch completely over. It's just like a merger, you don't just announced that's the long term plan because everybody (except the pilots and mechanics) would quit.
2) The examples you cite are a few planes on a Delta operation of hundreds of aircraft. That "flex" is a small %. Here you are talking about 25+% of the future SY fleet. Much harder to flex on that fleet. It necessitates cuts to the passenger side during peaks.
3) Amazon is growing "hard". Amazon will need a lot more planes going forward. They could easily suck up all of SY resources just from a growth point of view and a pilot staffing point of view. Coupled with the guaranteed margin and the need to IPO, it would seem that is the obvious end game.
 
TW870
Posts: 1236
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:45 pm

enilria wrote:
TW870 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Here's how the Amazon deal will work. 10 months per year those 737 freighters will fly the same utilization. 2 months per year those planes will probably be flying as hard as possible. Also, they would not acquire these freighters to let them sit. There isn't really a lull for Amazon, there's just a Holiday peak. So, Amazon will not create surplus pilots for SY, it will only take away pilots in the NOV-DEC period, and potentially more than that because Amazon keeps growing. There's also Prime Day which is in the middle of SY's pax peak season and is another peak for Amazon.


Right, agree with all of that. But I just don't see your point that it will force a capacity reduction on the pax operation. The 150 pilots staff the 10 738Fs at the operational scale that they operate for the 10 months of the year. For the two busier months, you eliminate pilot vacation offerings, and you increase average line values accross the system. You can also offer incentive pay for pickups. It is exactly how every passenger airline runs their operation. Delta has 6 spare A330s on the ground right now and 2 at MSP in overhaul. In the summer, they have zero spares - so a net of eight additional aircraft to staff. How do they do it? Increase average line values, no vacation awards, and incentive pickups. Sun country does it now for the summer, and they will do it again for the new peak. But in fact it is easier for the NOV-DEC peak because you already have super low average line values for the passenger operation. If you bump line averages for both the passenger and freight op, you can come up with a lot of hours without having to trim pax flying.

I think there are three factors that are worrisome for the future of the passenger operation:
1) If SY were profitable now to any real extent they would have already IPO'd. We also know (pretty well known in the industry) WN looked at buying SY just for the planes. We don't know why that didn't happen, but it was likely DOJ concerns. All that tells me that if a guaranteed margin freighter business takes hold it will eventually be an easy decision to switch completely over. It's just like a merger, you don't just announced that's the long term plan because everybody (except the pilots and mechanics) would quit.
2) The examples you cite are a few planes on a Delta operation of hundreds of aircraft. That "flex" is a small %. Here you are talking about 25+% of the future SY fleet. Much harder to flex on that fleet. It necessitates cuts to the passenger side during peaks.
3) Amazon is growing "hard". Amazon will need a lot more planes going forward. They could easily suck up all of SY resources just from a growth point of view and a pilot staffing point of view. Coupled with the guaranteed margin and the need to IPO, it would seem that is the obvious end game.


I hear your overall concern, which I think is valid given SY's oddly small size, and the dynamics you name in points 1 and 3 that may be evidence that they are looking for an alternative future growth plan to the ULCC passenger business. I just disagree with the operational piece. Since the aircraft fleets are staffed individually, the seasonal swing on legacy widebodies is in the same ballpark you name about SY. 8 DL A330s on the ground with 48 on the property means the fleet is 16% smaller in the winter than in the summer. There are 5 777s either as spares or in conversion now. That is 27% fewer scheduled 777s than in the summer. The 330 and 777 pilot crew scheduling operations can handle this by adjusting average line values, vacation, and incentive pay. Won't be any different at SY.
 
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enilria
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:40 pm

TW870 wrote:
enilria wrote:
TW870 wrote:

Right, agree with all of that. But I just don't see your point that it will force a capacity reduction on the pax operation. The 150 pilots staff the 10 738Fs at the operational scale that they operate for the 10 months of the year. For the two busier months, you eliminate pilot vacation offerings, and you increase average line values accross the system. You can also offer incentive pay for pickups. It is exactly how every passenger airline runs their operation. Delta has 6 spare A330s on the ground right now and 2 at MSP in overhaul. In the summer, they have zero spares - so a net of eight additional aircraft to staff. How do they do it? Increase average line values, no vacation awards, and incentive pickups. Sun country does it now for the summer, and they will do it again for the new peak. But in fact it is easier for the NOV-DEC peak because you already have super low average line values for the passenger operation. If you bump line averages for both the passenger and freight op, you can come up with a lot of hours without having to trim pax flying.

I think there are three factors that are worrisome for the future of the passenger operation:
1) If SY were profitable now to any real extent they would have already IPO'd. We also know (pretty well known in the industry) WN looked at buying SY just for the planes. We don't know why that didn't happen, but it was likely DOJ concerns. All that tells me that if a guaranteed margin freighter business takes hold it will eventually be an easy decision to switch completely over. It's just like a merger, you don't just announced that's the long term plan because everybody (except the pilots and mechanics) would quit.
2) The examples you cite are a few planes on a Delta operation of hundreds of aircraft. That "flex" is a small %. Here you are talking about 25+% of the future SY fleet. Much harder to flex on that fleet. It necessitates cuts to the passenger side during peaks.
3) Amazon is growing "hard". Amazon will need a lot more planes going forward. They could easily suck up all of SY resources just from a growth point of view and a pilot staffing point of view. Coupled with the guaranteed margin and the need to IPO, it would seem that is the obvious end game.


I hear your overall concern, which I think is valid given SY's oddly small size, and the dynamics you name in points 1 and 3 that may be evidence that they are looking for an alternative future growth plan to the ULCC passenger business. I just disagree with the operational piece. Since the aircraft fleets are staffed individually, the seasonal swing on legacy widebodies is in the same ballpark you name about SY. 8 DL A330s on the ground with 48 on the property means the fleet is 16% smaller in the winter than in the summer. There are 5 777s either as spares or in conversion now. That is 27% fewer scheduled 777s than in the summer. The 330 and 777 pilot crew scheduling operations can handle this by adjusting average line values, vacation, and incentive pay. Won't be any different at SY.

I'm not aware if the A330s are cross-qualified with anything else, but I would be shocked if the 767s are not common with the 757s because the flex on the 767 fleet is traditionally much greater than the A330.

Anyway, I would be certain that the real situation with SY is "if this goes well we will convert fully over to cargo". Of course, it may not go well. I know of airlines that saw the XXXXX Vacations charter flying opportunity and said "we should just do that and transition away from scheduled flying" and a season later we like "thank god we didn't do that" because a "guaranteed margin" turned out to be less of a guarantee than was thought.
 
TW870
Posts: 1236
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:53 pm

enilria wrote:
TW870 wrote:
enilria wrote:
I think there are three factors that are worrisome for the future of the passenger operation:
1) If SY were profitable now to any real extent they would have already IPO'd. We also know (pretty well known in the industry) WN looked at buying SY just for the planes. We don't know why that didn't happen, but it was likely DOJ concerns. All that tells me that if a guaranteed margin freighter business takes hold it will eventually be an easy decision to switch completely over. It's just like a merger, you don't just announced that's the long term plan because everybody (except the pilots and mechanics) would quit.
2) The examples you cite are a few planes on a Delta operation of hundreds of aircraft. That "flex" is a small %. Here you are talking about 25+% of the future SY fleet. Much harder to flex on that fleet. It necessitates cuts to the passenger side during peaks.
3) Amazon is growing "hard". Amazon will need a lot more planes going forward. They could easily suck up all of SY resources just from a growth point of view and a pilot staffing point of view. Coupled with the guaranteed margin and the need to IPO, it would seem that is the obvious end game.


I hear your overall concern, which I think is valid given SY's oddly small size, and the dynamics you name in points 1 and 3 that may be evidence that they are looking for an alternative future growth plan to the ULCC passenger business. I just disagree with the operational piece. Since the aircraft fleets are staffed individually, the seasonal swing on legacy widebodies is in the same ballpark you name about SY. 8 DL A330s on the ground with 48 on the property means the fleet is 16% smaller in the winter than in the summer. There are 5 777s either as spares or in conversion now. That is 27% fewer scheduled 777s than in the summer. The 330 and 777 pilot crew scheduling operations can handle this by adjusting average line values, vacation, and incentive pay. Won't be any different at SY.

I'm not aware if the A330s are cross-qualified with anything else, but I would be shocked if the 767s are not common with the 757s because the flex on the 767 fleet is traditionally much greater than the A330.

Anyway, I would be certain that the real situation with SY is "if this goes well we will convert fully over to cargo". Of course, it may not go well. I know of airlines that saw the XXXXX Vacations charter flying opportunity and said "we should just do that and transition away from scheduled flying" and a season later we like "thank god we didn't do that" because a "guaranteed margin" turned out to be less of a guarantee than was thought.


I agree fully with your second point. There is no free lunch. Being as small an ULCC as SY comes with unique financial pressures, as they just don't have the economies of scale that a Spirit or Frontier has. But I am guessing that flying for Amazon comes with immense unit cost pressure, which creates its own set of obstacles - especially when dealing with employee compensation and working conditions. I think this is a smart response, though, because it can help with crew and other employee utilization during what is otherwise a slow time.

Also - on the other example (and this is relevant to SY), while the 330 and 777 are their own fleets, the 757 and 767 are combined, but paid at the higher 767 rate. That was a tradeoff with the pilots in order to make one domestic and international fleet to help mitigate seasonal swing on the 767. It is an example of exactly what I am saying, where you combine multiple types of operations (in SY's case pax and cargo) to mitigate was is normally an inefficient use of resources.
 
leoben
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:36 pm

Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:52 pm

Some unknown unknowns for sure.

I wonder if they will have separate pools of pilots for the pax vs cargo ops. If they are, will they be able to recruit into the cargo side? Night hub turns and day sleeping in XYZ are not super appealing to most. Would it be a single list w/ seat locks and/or fences? Completely separate list? Separate would negate much of the "synergy". Would there be some other factors introduced to make it more appealing? Again, separate CBA? No synergy there.... Give everyone "enhancements"? SY's published pay rates dont inspire much.

And if it is all one big pool, will they have separate schedules for cargo, or will it be mixed in. That also raises some issues - would they apply FAR117 rules to all the ops, or use 121 for the cargo and then track the times, etc for 117 limits? Also, if it is all one big pool of pilots, I would assume that the cargo flying will go way junior (see hub turn/ day sleep above), and the prospect of those schedules for the duration of one's juniority would be an hurdle for recruiting.

Has there ever been a similar situation? Alaska's freight and combi ops were/ are a very different animal. This is a relatively niche LLC (ULLC?) taking on ACMI type flying.

Lots of other rabbit holes to go down, plenty to ponder.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:41 pm

Not to be a spoil sport,

but wasn’t there a large passenger airline recently that did the same... FLYING FREIGHT in addition to passengers.

Eventually they LET ALL STAFF to attend to passengers GO as, freight doesn’t complain like passengers do, and staff to attend passengers need raises to be motivated to deal with this.

If I remember correctly that airline was World Airways (a DC10 / MD11 operator) which did this TOWARDS THE END of their run.

World’s parent umbrella corporation let their fellow company “passenger carrier” North American Airlines (a 767 operator) continued hiring staff at new hire wages, while continually making all other staff redundant at World except for pilots to fly the freight.

Maybe others on here have more examples of this in the industry. As yes, it’s pretty shrewd of Sun Country’s management to ink a deal with Amazon if ULCC doesn’t quite work out.

The GOLDEN PARACHUTES just continue.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:51 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Not to be a spoil sport,

but wasn’t there a large passenger airline recently that did the same... FLYING FREIGHT in addition to passengers.

Eventually they LET ALL STAFF to attend to passengers GO as, freight doesn’t complain like passengers do, and staff to attend passengers need raises to be motivated to deal with this.

If I remember correctly that airline was World Airways (a DC10 / MD11 operator) which did this TOWARDS THE END of their run.

World’s parent umbrella corporation let their fellow company “passenger carrier” North American Airlines (a 767 operator) continue hiring staff at new hire wages, while continually making all other staff redundant at World except for pilots to fly the freight.

Maybe others on here have more examples of this in the industry. As yes, it’s pretty shrewd of Sun Country’s management to ink a deal with Amazon if ULCC doesn’t quite work out.

The GOLDEN PARACHUTES just continue.


Any owned 737’s might also be considered a higher value asset right now with the MAX fiasco and any high lease rate 737’s might could probably be dumped on to someone else more willing to pay.

YES gophers make plenty of holes. Are rabbits hares. In any case, we tortoises must be ready to stay in the race.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Sun Country to operate 10 B737s for Amazon

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:05 pm

Oh and yes and sorry about mentioning this.
Merry Christmas, Sun Country.
A New Year is a good time for new starts.

Sorry if this is rain, but I have seen first hand the seediness and greed of private equity firms, big business shenanigans, and the masquerades of corporate raiders and leaders which get involved with the airline industry destroying lives, livelihoods, and aviation history in the process.

I just don’t want to see the good people at Sun Country caught unaware.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!

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