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PepeTheFrog
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Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:02 pm

Airbus is looking to recruit an “inspirational” leader, to be based in Toulouse, for the future projects office.

“For the first time in 50 years, Airbus has no major ongoing aircraft development,” says the airframer. “But [it] is actively preparing for the next one.

Airbus states that the role will involve defining top-level technical objectives and requirements to enable “robust launch of a new project”, and organising the activities necessary to meet aircraft design needs throughout the feasibility phase.


The article contains a small hint about what the next major aircraft program might be:

Airbus chief Guillaume Faury recently outlined the potential timing of a new single-aisle programme to FlightGlobal, stating that launch in the second half of the 2020s, for service entry in the 2030s, was feasible.


Airbus seeks leader for new aircraft projects division

So, let the guessing begin.

I bet for an electrical (hybrid) narrow body program. Thoughts?
Good moaning!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:34 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Airbus is looking to recruit an “inspirational” leader, to be based in Toulouse, for the future projects office.

Funny that they can't find one of these "inspirational leaders" in house already.

PepeTheFrog wrote:
So, let the guessing begin.

I bet for an electrical (hybrid) narrow body program. Thoughts?

It doesn't work that way, you start with objectives then work towards architecture:

Airbus states that the role will involve defining top-level technical objectives and requirements to enable “robust launch of a new project”, and organising the activities necessary to meet aircraft design needs throughout the feasibility phase.

This feasibility phase – which covers the initial “maturity gate” points from MG1 to MG3 – follows the confirmation that there is a requirement for the aircraft in the market sector, and involves developing the basic architecture to meet this demand, including selection of possible technologies and exploration of industrial scenarios, ahead of the concept phase.

This person's work winds down when the concept phase begins.
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Yinrenao2001
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:53 pm

On the one hand , I just think it is a common commercial sentences, every company , whether it is a plane manufactor, or a phone company or whatever it is, can use this kind of words with a little exaggeration to answer the media and the outside world, giving pressure to the competitor, and exciting fans to guess and imagine.... even if it may don't exist at all. but I do hope to see what Airbus want to make in the 2020-2030. A whole new plane model , not operate the current one , launching a neo/LR/XLR verison.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:59 pm

A322/a323capacity?
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 am

Here's the Airbus maturity gates. We've all got an idea how quickly they go from M6 to M13 - they're public milestones, typically 6 years. I've no idea for typical timescales for M1 to M5 - does anyone here? If they're recruiting for that now, does that tally with a launch in the second half of the decade?

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Down with that sort of thing!
 
VS11
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:16 am

Revelation wrote:
Funny that they can't find one of these "inspirational leaders" in house already.


It is not unusual to look outside the organization on purpose so that a fresh new perspective/mindset is applied. Someone who does not drink the kool-aid (yet), so to speak.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:29 am

New single aisle EIS early 2030s. Two pilots obviously, CFRP fuselage? What else is there that is a realistic possiblity in terms of anything new? GTF engine, variable nozzle?
 
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:42 am

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JetBuddy
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:46 am

So what are Airbus engineers going to work on the next 5 years?

Continue improving existing models?
Launch an A220-500 stretch?
 
ewt340
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:06 am

The 2 next projects that are viable would probably A330's replacements, New Narrow Body/Stretched A220.
 
maint123
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:08 am

Airbus gives a impression of a focused company with it's short and long term plans. The only thing they lack is a captive defense market like Boeing has.
The gap between the 2 companies seems to be set to increase in the coming decades.
Maybe not in the next decade but in a couple of decades, I forsee a drone type , pilotless passenger plane taking to the skies. Airbus with its fbw architecture is uniquely positioned for this.
 
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:42 am

With the advent of the A220, which will probably be stretched/upgraded into A319/A320-sized aircraft, Airbus probably needs to start thinking now about the future of the middle market. The A330 program is getting long in the tooth and the A320 program is actually older. So Airbus needs to start working on a platform that can carry somewhere between 200 and 350 people over an endurance of 10-12 hours. This would be useful on the intra-Europe market, North-American transcontinental routes, and TATL.

The top and bottom of the market are handled by the A350 and A220 so I think they are going to shoot down the middle.
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VV
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:37 am

I hope the new inspirational leader will be a lady.
 
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:50 am

DenverTed wrote:
New single aisle EIS early 2030s. Two pilots obviously, CFRP fuselage? What else is there that is a realistic possiblity in terms of anything new? GTF engine, variable nozzle?


I wouldn’t be shocked if it’s a single pilot design by the time it’s time to cut metal.

I hope that isn’t the case but in 10 years I see that being very very feasible. I’m sure the airlines would jump all over the opportunity to eliminate a cockpit crew member.
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RalXWB
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:57 am

Funny, this is contrary to the Anet-myth that only Boeing develops new projects and Airbus is only following. This is not meant to be flamebait, it is just a fact. IMO they are working on an A330 successor first and then the new single aisle project.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:19 am

Airbus' weakest program is the A330neo. In addition most are wagering that Boeing's next project will be the MoM, and Airbus already has some market penetration in the lower part of that market segment (with the A321LR/XLR).

So I don't think Airbus will do a MoM (that risks direct competition with Boeing and cannibalization of some of their own product).

I think instead they'll replace the A330neo. It'll probably also be a good Dreamliner replacement/competitor and have 8-abreast economy seating at A220 dimensions, and 7-abreast premium economy seating.
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:32 am

Airbus will realize that Boeing has to come up with some entire new narrowwbody family ASAP. Likely parallel to the MAX for some time. But this super innovative CFRP "838" mid term will put pressure on A especially if new engines, maybe with some huge diameter will be used. So this must be answered strategically. Something like A322 or A323 can be dealt with on lower level.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:44 am

I agree that the A330 project looks dated but it is as dated as the A320 one. Now with the addition of th A220, I owuld see they working across the whole NB portfolio towards a desing which unifies both the A220 and the A320 family. This is bearing in mind what Guillaume Faury recently said.
I would wonder if they would move also towards synergizing the A330 and he A350 but I see Airbus prioritizing the NB for now.
 
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:04 am

I repeatedly read here that carbon fiber fuselage for narrowbody is not much of an advantage. The thickness has to be enough for damage tolerance. So what would be the advantage of a clean sheet? Maintenance?

An A330 replacement would make sense. But B787s have only 60 m wings. Would the economic advantage of a new 8 abreast versus the B787 be worth the investment? I would rather opt for 7 abreast. An A321 is just not good enough for long haul. I know that without competing product sales figures say otherwise.

The more efficient the engines become, the more attractive a very large aircraft. I speak of 4 engines. A 75 m long aircraft with 80 m flapping wing limited to 12 hours flight time (plus reserves) and therefore smaller MTOW and better aspect ratio wing than A380 sounds like good CASM. It could do Europe- Asia and transatlantic. Transpacific is the wrong political bet for Airbus to take and adds too much structure for the many 8 hours or so flights. And if it's difficult to fill the plane, one has to aim for the flight length with high demand.
Could one use the middle deck for freight?
I believe the proponents of RASM are right today. But who knows how many people want to fly in 2035? Will freight or passenger traffic increase more? Was the A380 the wrong concept or was it over designed (too much range) with engine technology not yet good enough to realize such a plane?

I always found the A380s empty weight crazy too high. With theoretical 853 passengers OEW of A380 was 325 kg/ seat.
An A321Neo with 50t OEW and 240 seats max has 208 kg/ seat. Indeed with 97 t the A321Neo has 403 kg/ seat MTOW. And I assume the A321 is designed for more pressurization cycles. But then it makes a difference if a plane has to carry fuel for 4000 nm or 8000 nm.
Can carbon fiber and reduced range together with improved fuel efficiency make a good VLA?

Beside a new 7 abreast plane and new wings for the A321/ A330 I don't see what Airbus should do. That's why I believe a new VLA may not be as crazy as it sounds. CO2 tax on fuel would help. But if politics want to do that, they have to give the signal some years in advance. Well, maybe the discussions at the moment are the advance notice.
Last edited by Sokes on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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keesje
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:07 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
Airbus' weakest program is the A330neo. In addition most are wagering that Boeing's next project will be the MoM, and Airbus already has some market penetration in the lower part of that market segment (with the A321LR/XLR).

So I don't think Airbus will do a MoM (that risks direct competition with Boeing and cannibalization of some of their own product).

I think instead they'll replace the A330neo. It'll probably also be a good Dreamliner replacement/competitor and have 8-abreast economy seating at A220 dimensions, and 7-abreast premium economy seating.


Maybe a wide seats, spacey 1.5 aisle fat narrowbody could neutrailze typical narrow body disadvantages, while benefitting from it's efficiency in the 250+ medium range segment..

Image

You would need 40-50k lbs engines though.
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Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:08 am

You could change the fuselage diameter, add a seat or two, have steeper sidewalls better position galleys and lavs and reconfigure the whole family to cater for market growth and the asian market needs like range and airline structure. And make everything ready for future super high bypass engines.

P.S: Having said that I don't see it to become the 757-300neo above. Even with a wider aisle it will be some turnaround nightmare it seems.
 
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:28 am

Noshow wrote:
P.S: Having said that I don't see it to become the 757-300neo above. Even with a wider aisle it will be some turnaround nightmare it seems.


I think an aisle where you can pass would be quicker to load than 2 aisles. I have tried to build a model of it but I'm struggling with the logic at the moment.

Fred
Image
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:35 am

I'd say it would need to be more of a super modern cousin of 767 instead of a 757. Mind you Airbus will have the stretched and possibly rewinged A321 family members below.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:52 am

60-80 seat RJ....1500nm max range

Fred
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keesje
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:09 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Noshow wrote:
P.S: Having said that I don't see it to become the 757-300neo above. Even with a wider aisle it will be some turnaround nightmare it seems.


I think an aisle where you can pass would be quicker to load than 2 aisles. I have tried to build a model of it but I'm struggling with the logic at the moment.

Fred


Me too. It would be great to have a full scale tests on 3-3, 2-3-2 cabins with various aisle widths.

I notice people are willing to bypass in wider aisles like Easyjet A320 aisles (25 inch aisle, narrow seats). Adding 5 inch to that might reduce the total blockages, you see with narrrow aisles during (de)boarding.

This not small person is passing 3 not small people in seconds, without being rude. https://youtu.be/1in5Y_pUS7s?t=180

With a ~30 inch aisle people might also be able to load/unload their stuff faster, because there is more (bigger) bin space for all and more space to stand, reach out.

And it seems far lighter and more efficient than a 2-3-2 wide body for the same (e.g. 300 seats single class) seat capacity..

Image
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seahawk
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:21 am

Two options are possible, one them is at least a necessity to consider.

1. they need to look at a new single aisle option and when it starts to beat an improved A320 to make the investment worthwhile (this is the necessity)
2. is an A3300 successor that better fills the gap between the single aisle series and the A350
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:28 am

All new programs will be built using highly integrated processes. So the production layout, technology, the factory locations, supplier integration, future products and rates and such play some way more important role and make this very complex apart from the aircraft itself.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:37 am

VV wrote:
I hope the new inspirational leader will be a lady.


Why is that? Just curious...
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Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:42 am

Select by talent not by gender please.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:48 am

Noshow wrote:
Select by talent not by gender please.


Sex, actually. Gender is for language, sex is people. Anyway, I agree with your statement 100%.
A big heart is commendable. An enlarged heart is a medical condition.
 
tvh
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:50 am

keesje wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
Airbus' weakest program is the A330neo. In addition most are wagering that Boeing's next project will be the MoM, and Airbus already has some market penetration in the lower part of that market segment (with the A321LR/XLR).

So I don't think Airbus will do a MoM (that risks direct competition with Boeing and cannibalization of some of their own product).

I think instead they'll replace the A330neo. It'll probably also be a good Dreamliner replacement/competitor and have 8-abreast economy seating at A220 dimensions, and 7-abreast premium economy seating.


Maybe a wide seats, spacey 1.5 aisle fat narrowbody could neutrailze typical narrow body disadvantages, while benefitting from it's efficiency in the 250+ medium range segment..

Image

You would need 40-50k lbs engines though.


Your A370 would be more than 16% heavier than the A321XLR per passenger, even in the most favourable configuration. Wing loading will be better but I think you simply over-designed the aircraft. Just put a new wing which is about 20% larger wing on the A321xlr and a longer landing-gear and create a new simple stretched version, that will be enough. It will cost halve the development costs.
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:51 am

Sex, actually. Gender is for language, sex is people. Anyway, I agree with your statement 100%.

I actually had used the word sex first and only changed it back to gender afterwards. Whatever.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:41 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
I agree that the A330 project looks dated but it is as dated as the A320 one. Now with the addition of th A220, I owuld see they working across the whole NB portfolio towards a desing which unifies both the A220 and the A320 family. This is bearing in mind what Guillaume Faury recently said.
I would wonder if they would move also towards synergizing the A330 and he A350 but I see Airbus prioritizing the NB for now.


The A320 might as dated (or modern) as the A330 from a technology point of view, but from a market/product range placement point of view that is very different.

Any (natural, sfc improvement combined) tech/capabilty evolution on the A320 will improve it's positioning in relation to the MoM and the A220. Any (natural/sfc improvement combined) tech/capability evolution on the A330 however will move it even further away from an underserved part of the market and closer to the segment that the current (already too close) A350 is serving.

Therefore I find it more likely that the A320 will get another big update (if it is estimated to be able to compete sufficiently with an all new Boeing NB), where as the A330 will be replaced entirely by a much much lighter and tighter 8-abreast with a range reset closer to MoM and further away from the A350
Last edited by Taxi645 on Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ABpositive
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:53 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Select by talent not by gender please.


Sex, actually. Gender is for language, sex is people. Anyway, I agree with your statement 100%.


Talent is subjective, so it's in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps the selection panels need to be more balanced to provide a more equitable view of the world.
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:54 pm

So what was that hopefully female thing about?
 
Zaf
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:55 pm

maybe they replace A319 and 320 with larger versions of A220.
And this new development narrowbody 250-300 seats will replace A321, A321XLR, A300, A310 , 757.

Hopefully they develop new technologies. Single pilot or no pilot. hybrid powered.
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:08 pm

Single pilot would lack pilot redundancy. Redundancy is one of the main aviation safety principles. I don't see this coming. Maybe more long range crews get reduced over time to not 4 but 3 or similar. But 2 real pilots on board is the absolute minimum. Not some elevator service center to call for by push button or a flight attendant with some iPad degree.
 
Caluma350
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:44 pm

Noshow wrote:
Single pilot would lack pilot redundancy. Redundancy is one of the main aviation safety principles. I don't see this coming. Maybe more long range crews get reduced over time to not 4 but 3 or similar. But 2 real pilots on board is the absolute minimum. Not some elevator service center to call for by push button or a flight attendant with some iPad degree.


Airbus are certainly looking into the possibility of having a single pilot aircraft:

https://skift.com/2017/11/26/pilot-shor ... ous-plane/

I certainly agree with you that there should be 2 pilots in an aircraft but you never know what the future holds. After all 3 was once the norm for commercial flight decks.
 
twaconnie
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:53 pm

I guess it's to soon for a blended wing design.
 
morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:55 pm

keesje wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Noshow wrote:
P.S: Having said that I don't see it to become the 757-300neo above. Even with a wider aisle it will be some turnaround nightmare it seems.


I think an aisle where you can pass would be quicker to load than 2 aisles. I have tried to build a model of it but I'm struggling with the logic at the moment.

Fred


Me too. It would be great to have a full scale tests on 3-3, 2-3-2 cabins with various aisle widths.

I notice people are willing to bypass in wider aisles like Easyjet A320 aisles (25 inch aisle, narrow seats). Adding 5 inch to that might reduce the total blockages, you see with narrrow aisles during (de)boarding.

This not small person is passing 3 not small people in seconds, without being rude. https://youtu.be/1in5Y_pUS7s?t=180

With a ~30 inch aisle people might also be able to load/unload their stuff faster, because there is more (bigger) bin space for all and more space to stand, reach out.

And it seems far lighter and more efficient than a 2-3-2 wide body for the same (e.g. 300 seats single class) seat capacity..

Image


How wide is your Fuselage? About 168" wide and 178" high? Perfect lay it on it's side and make it 7W with the same cross section and pick up 16.7% more Y seats and 25-50% more in the front.

I think 7W actually makes more sense for Airbus (than Boeing) to replace A321 and A330 as they have the 5W A220 which they can stretch and grow to take over the 320/738 market. That may be a A220-500 and -700 as you have illustrated before.

Do you still have those diagrams and what the projected specs are (A220-500/700) especially with the A225 bump in MTOW?

Nobodies really building new Airports in the West anymore - slots and gate space won't be gettting much better and passenger growth will be a lot in the 10 years before a new program can have sufficient numbers flying. The A321/739/10 replacements need to be bigger for trunk routes but not as big as 330/787/350 as they are overkill for most of them (as a lot are well within 5,000NM) and that much capacity in one frame would hurt frequency.

For non Trunk routes a long 5W will be way more efficient than an fat 6W especially as you Keesje correctly point out the bulk of Routes are less than 1,500 NM - perfect for a A200-500/700 - no so great for a 6WFA (Fat Albert) or 7WOSM (Ovalish Skinny Minny).

So if I was Airbus - I would work on getting the A225/227 (simple stretches) into the market soonish to really hurt Boeing and start working on my A321/A330 replacements for delivery probably a decade from now - there is no huge rush(on A321/330 repalcement).

However that design may finally be something that moves beyond traditional Tube and Wings and have some very advanced Aerodynamics as we have seen in some of Airbus's studies. Something where the wing and tails are more blended into the Fuselage.

Boeing does not have the luxury of pushing Aero that far as they need to have something new into the market sooner rather than later. That is Airbus's trump card - wait for Boeing to commit to a design and then go well beyond it in terms of Aero.

This would be a premium product and priced as such and offered along with A321 for a while. They have so many A320/A321 lines around the world it would be no issue to keep a few going while you were building the new 7W as well.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:58 pm

An entire out of autoclave single piece monolithic CFRP airframe :cloudnine:

Fred
Image
 
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Airbus747
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:00 pm

How about improvements from the sustainability angle, anyone?

R&D for better engines? Fuel? Sound reduction...?
 
many321
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:05 pm

twaconnie wrote:
I guess it's to soon for a blended wing design.

Would be lovely to see them push the boundaries, but sadly you're right. It's too soon for that.
 
morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:13 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
An entire out of autoclave single piece monolithic CFRP airframe :cloudnine:

Fred


Now that would be neat. I'm a big fan of F1 and obsessed with Bicycles - both of which have benefited hugely from advancements in Composite design. Some of the shaping is absolutely amazing.

It would be really nice to see Airbus move beyond tube and wing for their next clean sheet - which would probably require something like your "out of autoclave single piece monolithic CFRP airframe".

Labor costs to produce would most certainly go down.
Last edited by morrisond on Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
fraport
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:14 pm

Just today on German aero.de:

Ein komplett neues Flugzeug wird es laut Scherer in den 2020ern nicht geben. Eine neue Plattform bedarf zuvor einem technologischen Durchbruch, der es erlauben würde, ein wesentlich umweltfreundlicheres Flugzeug als die heutigen Modelle zu bauen.


Rough translation: According to Scherer, there will not be a completely new aircraft in the 2020s. A new platform requires a technological breakthrough beforehand, which would allow a much more environmentally friendly aircraft to be built than the current models.

https://www.aero.de/news-33545/Airbus-s ... splus.html
 
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:32 pm

ewt340 wrote:
The 2 next projects that are viable would probably A330's replacements, New Narrow Body/Stretched A220.

And A350neo and A321XLR+++
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Baldr
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:52 pm

tvh wrote:
keesje wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
Airbus' weakest program is the A330neo. In addition most are wagering that Boeing's next project will be the MoM, and Airbus already has some market penetration in the lower part of that market segment (with the A321LR/XLR).

So I don't think Airbus will do a MoM (that risks direct competition with Boeing and cannibalization of some of their own product).

I think instead they'll replace the A330neo. It'll probably also be a good Dreamliner replacement/competitor and have 8-abreast economy seating at A220 dimensions, and 7-abreast premium economy seating.


Maybe a wide seats, spacey 1.5 aisle fat narrowbody could neutrailze typical narrow body disadvantages, while benefitting from it's efficiency in the 250+ medium range segment..

Image

You would need 40-50k lbs engines though.


Your A370 would be more than 16% heavier than the A321XLR per passenger, even in the most favourable configuration. Wing loading will be better but I think you simply over-designed the aircraft. Just put a new wing which is about 20% larger wing on the A321xlr and a longer landing-gear and create a new simple stretched version, that will be enough. It will cost halve the development costs.


Interestingly, the wing on the A345/A346 is 20% larger in area than the wing on the A342/A343. It incorporated a three-frame (1.6m) centre wingbox* extension combined with a tapered outer wingbox insert, along with 1.6m wingtip extensions and the 2m-span canted winglets from the A333/A343, and increased fuel capacity by 38%. The tapered insert provided a slight increase in wing sweep, from 30° to 31.5°, and greater chord without any significant increase in depth -- yielding a slight increase in cruise speed; from Mach 0.82 to Mach 0.83.

* The A333/A343 centre wingbox is 5.33 metres long (i.e. equivalent to 10 frames).
* The A345/A346 centre wingbox is 6.93 metres long (i.e. equivalent to 13 frames).

Now, if Airbus were to "copy" what they did with A345/A346 wing and use a similar tapered chord-wise wing insert on an enlarged A322/A323 wing, the development costs would be much lower than what is required for an all new wing.

The length of the A318/A319/A320/A321 centre wingbox is 3 metres (i.e. equivalent to 2 full frames, 2 half frames and 2 emergency door frames; or 5.66 frames ). Hence, a 2-frame (1.07m) centre wingbox extension combined with a tapered outer wingbox insert, along with slightly modified and wider 1.61m long neo wingtip extensions and sharklets, would increase wing area by 19%, which combined with the larger centre section, would boost fuel capacity by up to 40%; or by nearly 10,000 litres.

The enlarged wing on the A322/A323 would use the the same trailing edge as the A321XLR. Hence, the enlarged wing on the A322/A323 would have an area of about 153 m2 -- vs. 124 m2 on the A318/A319/A320 and 128 m2 on the A321.

Now, an A322/A323 enlarged wing would have a significantly lower aspect ratio than the current wing -- that is, if the existing neo wingtip extensions and sharklets would be used instead of new folding wingtips:

________Aspect Ratio
A318______10.34
A319______10.34
A320______10.34
A321______10.01
A322______8.38
A323______8.38

In fact, if the enlarged wing of the A322/A323 would be outfitted with 2 x 3 metre long folding wingtips*, the in-flight wingspan would increase to 41.8 metres (35.8 metres when parked and taxiing) and the wing area would be increased to around 160 m2. The wing aspect ratio would then be nearly as great as that of the A330-900.

_______Aspect Ratio
A322*____10.92
A323*____10.92
A339_____11.07
 
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:23 pm

fraport wrote:
According to Scherer, there will not be a completely new aircraft in the 2020s. A new platform requires a technological breakthrough beforehand, which would allow a much more environmentally friendly aircraft to be built than the current models.

I was hoping we'd see the Airbus 7W NMA in this decade just to see people's heads explode.

It's interesting how similar his name is to that of George Shairer, a well known Boeing aerodynamacist ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Schairer ).
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Baldr
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:40 pm

keesje wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Noshow wrote:
P.S: Having said that I don't see it to become the 757-300neo above. Even with a wider aisle it will be some turnaround nightmare it seems.


I think an aisle where you can pass would be quicker to load than 2 aisles. I have tried to build a model of it but I'm struggling with the logic at the moment.

Fred


Me too. It would be great to have a full scale tests on 3-3, 2-3-2 cabins with various aisle widths.

I notice people are willing to bypass in wider aisles like Easyjet A320 aisles (25 inch aisle, narrow seats). Adding 5 inch to that might reduce the total blockages, you see with narrrow aisles during (de)boarding.

This not small person is passing 3 not small people in seconds, without being rude. https://youtu.be/1in5Y_pUS7s?t=180

With a ~30 inch aisle people might also be able to load/unload their stuff faster, because there is more (bigger) bin space for all and more space to stand, reach out.

And it seems far lighter and more efficient than a 2-3-2 wide body for the same (e.g. 300 seats single class) seat capacity..

Image


If a 55 metre long (re-winged) A323 had a wider Door 2L, then 2 passenger could disembark through the door at the same time. The "free aisle" width of the main doors of the A320 family is 0.76m. In contrast, the door opening is 1.22 m on all the A350 doors.

Hence, with an A350-type door at the position of Door 2L on a 753-sized A323, passengers sitting both forward and aft of the 1.22m wide Door 2L could more easily disembark simultaneously -- and there would be fewer passengers seated aft of Door 2L on an A323 than on the new A321neo ACF versions where Doors 2L and 2R have been removed.

Of course, Doors 2L and 2R on an A323 should be moved slightly forward, with respect to the wing, from that of the Door 2L and 2R positions on the A321 (i.e. resulting in more clearance for the jet bridges vis-a-vis the engines.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:35 pm

Baldr wrote:
tvh wrote:
keesje wrote:

Maybe a wide seats, spacey 1.5 aisle fat narrowbody could neutrailze typical narrow body disadvantages, while benefitting from it's efficiency in the 250+ medium range segment..

Image

You would need 40-50k lbs engines though.


Your A370 would be more than 16% heavier than the A321XLR per passenger, even in the most favourable configuration. Wing loading will be better but I think you simply over-designed the aircraft. Just put a new wing which is about 20% larger wing on the A321xlr and a longer landing-gear and create a new simple stretched version, that will be enough. It will cost halve the development costs.


Interestingly, the wing on the A345/A346 is 20% larger in area than the wing on the A342/A343. It incorporated a three-frame (1.6m) centre wingbox* extension combined with a tapered outer wingbox insert, along with 1.6m wingtip extensions and the 2m-span canted winglets from the A333/A343, and increased fuel capacity by 38%. The tapered insert provided a slight increase in wing sweep, from 30° to 31.5°, and greater chord without any significant increase in depth -- yielding a slight increase in cruise speed; from Mach 0.82 to Mach 0.83.

* The A333/A343 centre wingbox is 5.33 metres long (i.e. equivalent to 10 frames).
* The A345/A346 centre wingbox is 6.93 metres long (i.e. equivalent to 13 frames).

Now, if Airbus were to "copy" what they did with A345/A346 wing and use a similar tapered chord-wise wing insert on an enlarged A322/A323 wing, the development costs would be much lower than what is required for an all new wing.

The length of the A318/A319/A320/A321 centre wingbox is 3 metres (i.e. equivalent to 2 full frames, 2 half frames and 2 emergency door frames; or 5.66 frames ). Hence, a 2-frame (1.07m) centre wingbox extension combined with a tapered outer wingbox insert, along with slightly modified and wider 1.61m long neo wingtip extensions and sharklets, would increase wing area by 19%, which combined with the larger centre section, would boost fuel capacity by up to 40%; or by nearly 10,000 litres.

The enlarged wing on the A322/A323 would use the the same trailing edge as the A321XLR. Hence, the enlarged wing on the A322/A323 would have an area of about 153 m2 -- vs. 124 m2 on the A318/A319/A320 and 128 m2 on the A321.

Now, an A322/A323 enlarged wing would have a significantly lower aspect ratio than the current wing -- that is, if the existing neo wingtip extensions and sharklets would be used instead of new folding wingtips:

________Aspect Ratio
A318______10.34
A319______10.34
A320______10.34
A321______10.01
A322______8.38
A323______8.38

In fact, if the enlarged wing of the A322/A323 would be outfitted with 2 x 3 metre long folding wingtips*, the in-flight wingspan would increase to 41.8 metres (35.8 metres when parked and taxiing) and the wing area would be increased to around 160 m2. The wing aspect ratio would then be nearly as great as that of the A330-900.

_______Aspect Ratio
A322*____10.92
A323*____10.92
A339_____11.07



I think you could put a new wing, wingbox and produce a 757-300 kind of aircraft. But it would push practicality in terms of people moving through the narow aisle.
During longer flights everybody will go to the lav, need a walk, while multiple catering services take place.

Image

Plus you are starting to take compromises on structure weight.
Making a relative narrow tube strong and stiff enough you will have to put in more material, increasing OEW.

The A370 concept could also provide options to offer alternative premium seat configurations.
Aisle access has become a requirement in business class. A 1-2-1 configuration would be possible for long flights / sleeper seats.

Image
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