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morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:30 pm

keesje wrote:
Baldr wrote:
tvh wrote:

Your A370 would be more than 16% heavier than the A321XLR per passenger, even in the most favourable configuration. Wing loading will be better but I think you simply over-designed the aircraft. Just put a new wing which is about 20% larger wing on the A321xlr and a longer landing-gear and create a new simple stretched version, that will be enough. It will cost halve the development costs.


Interestingly, the wing on the A345/A346 is 20% larger in area than the wing on the A342/A343. It incorporated a three-frame (1.6m) centre wingbox* extension combined with a tapered outer wingbox insert, along with 1.6m wingtip extensions and the 2m-span canted winglets from the A333/A343, and increased fuel capacity by 38%. The tapered insert provided a slight increase in wing sweep, from 30° to 31.5°, and greater chord without any significant increase in depth -- yielding a slight increase in cruise speed; from Mach 0.82 to Mach 0.83.

* The A333/A343 centre wingbox is 5.33 metres long (i.e. equivalent to 10 frames).
* The A345/A346 centre wingbox is 6.93 metres long (i.e. equivalent to 13 frames).

Now, if Airbus were to "copy" what they did with A345/A346 wing and use a similar tapered chord-wise wing insert on an enlarged A322/A323 wing, the development costs would be much lower than what is required for an all new wing.

The length of the A318/A319/A320/A321 centre wingbox is 3 metres (i.e. equivalent to 2 full frames, 2 half frames and 2 emergency door frames; or 5.66 frames ). Hence, a 2-frame (1.07m) centre wingbox extension combined with a tapered outer wingbox insert, along with slightly modified and wider 1.61m long neo wingtip extensions and sharklets, would increase wing area by 19%, which combined with the larger centre section, would boost fuel capacity by up to 40%; or by nearly 10,000 litres.

The enlarged wing on the A322/A323 would use the the same trailing edge as the A321XLR. Hence, the enlarged wing on the A322/A323 would have an area of about 153 m2 -- vs. 124 m2 on the A318/A319/A320 and 128 m2 on the A321.

Now, an A322/A323 enlarged wing would have a significantly lower aspect ratio than the current wing -- that is, if the existing neo wingtip extensions and sharklets would be used instead of new folding wingtips:

________Aspect Ratio
A318______10.34
A319______10.34
A320______10.34
A321______10.01
A322______8.38
A323______8.38

In fact, if the enlarged wing of the A322/A323 would be outfitted with 2 x 3 metre long folding wingtips*, the in-flight wingspan would increase to 41.8 metres (35.8 metres when parked and taxiing) and the wing area would be increased to around 160 m2. The wing aspect ratio would then be nearly as great as that of the A330-900.

_______Aspect Ratio
A322*____10.92
A323*____10.92
A339_____11.07



I think you could put a new wing, wingbox and produce a 757-300 kind of aircraft. But it would push practicality in terms of people moving through the narow aisle.
During longer flights everybody will go to the lav, need a walk, while multiple catering services take place.

Image

Plus you are starting to take compromises on structure weight.
Making a relative narrow tube strong and stiff enough you will have to put in more material, increasing OEW.

The A370 concept could also provide options to offer alternative premium seat configurations.
Aisle access has become a requirement in business class. A 1-2-1 configuration would be possible for long flights / sleeper seats.

Image


Keesje - your 6W 178x178 cross Section has more cross section area than an Eliptical 7W at something like 170"H x 184" W - how is that a better solution?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3511
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:52 pm

morrisond wrote:
keesje wrote:
Baldr wrote:

Interestingly, the wing on the A345/A346 is 20% larger in area than the wing on the A342/A343. It incorporated a three-frame (1.6m) centre wingbox* extension combined with a tapered outer wingbox insert, along with 1.6m wingtip extensions and the 2m-span canted winglets from the A333/A343, and increased fuel capacity by 38%. The tapered insert provided a slight increase in wing sweep, from 30° to 31.5°, and greater chord without any significant increase in depth -- yielding a slight increase in cruise speed; from Mach 0.82 to Mach 0.83.

* The A333/A343 centre wingbox is 5.33 metres long (i.e. equivalent to 10 frames).
* The A345/A346 centre wingbox is 6.93 metres long (i.e. equivalent to 13 frames).

Now, if Airbus were to "copy" what they did with A345/A346 wing and use a similar tapered chord-wise wing insert on an enlarged A322/A323 wing, the development costs would be much lower than what is required for an all new wing.

The length of the A318/A319/A320/A321 centre wingbox is 3 metres (i.e. equivalent to 2 full frames, 2 half frames and 2 emergency door frames; or 5.66 frames ). Hence, a 2-frame (1.07m) centre wingbox extension combined with a tapered outer wingbox insert, along with slightly modified and wider 1.61m long neo wingtip extensions and sharklets, would increase wing area by 19%, which combined with the larger centre section, would boost fuel capacity by up to 40%; or by nearly 10,000 litres.

The enlarged wing on the A322/A323 would use the the same trailing edge as the A321XLR. Hence, the enlarged wing on the A322/A323 would have an area of about 153 m2 -- vs. 124 m2 on the A318/A319/A320 and 128 m2 on the A321.

Now, an A322/A323 enlarged wing would have a significantly lower aspect ratio than the current wing -- that is, if the existing neo wingtip extensions and sharklets would be used instead of new folding wingtips:

________Aspect Ratio
A318______10.34
A319______10.34
A320______10.34
A321______10.01
A322______8.38
A323______8.38

In fact, if the enlarged wing of the A322/A323 would be outfitted with 2 x 3 metre long folding wingtips*, the in-flight wingspan would increase to 41.8 metres (35.8 metres when parked and taxiing) and the wing area would be increased to around 160 m2. The wing aspect ratio would then be nearly as great as that of the A330-900.

_______Aspect Ratio
A322*____10.92
A323*____10.92
A339_____11.07



I think you could put a new wing, wingbox and produce a 757-300 kind of aircraft. But it would push practicality in terms of people moving through the narow aisle.
During longer flights everybody will go to the lav, need a walk, while multiple catering services take place.

Image

Plus you are starting to take compromises on structure weight.
Making a relative narrow tube strong and stiff enough you will have to put in more material, increasing OEW.

The A370 concept could also provide options to offer alternative premium seat configurations.
Aisle access has become a requirement in business class. A 1-2-1 configuration would be possible for long flights / sleeper seats.

Image


Keesje - your 6W 178x178 cross Section has more cross section area than an Eliptical 7W at something like 170"H x 184" W - how is that a better solution?

It’s potentially lighter, would be stretched further before being bending limited. May have increased loading speed. Potential for increased comfort levels. It’s certainly not a definitively better solution but nor is it a definitively worse one.

Fred


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Image
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:34 pm

hopefully they dont find a tube with two engines hanging off the wings "inspiring"
 
lhrnue
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:00 pm

For the that sort of money I can be inspirational …. and a lady.
 
morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:11 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
morrisond wrote:
keesje wrote:


I think you could put a new wing, wingbox and produce a 757-300 kind of aircraft. But it would push practicality in terms of people moving through the narow aisle.
During longer flights everybody will go to the lav, need a walk, while multiple catering services take place.

Image

Plus you are starting to take compromises on structure weight.
Making a relative narrow tube strong and stiff enough you will have to put in more material, increasing OEW.

The A370 concept could also provide options to offer alternative premium seat configurations.
Aisle access has become a requirement in business class. A 1-2-1 configuration would be possible for long flights / sleeper seats.

Image


Keesje - your 6W 178x178 cross Section has more cross section area than an Eliptical 7W at something like 170"H x 184" W - how is that a better solution?

It’s potentially lighter, would be stretched further before being bending limited. May have increased loading speed. Potential for increased comfort levels. It’s certainly not a definitively better solution but nor is it a definitively worse one.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes it could be all those points, but as at a minimum a 7W would have 16.7% more Y seats and 25-50% more in the front making a 7W a lot shorter for the same capacity - that may be enough to offset the bending moment problem as it would be shorter - that increased comfort could come at a big cost.

Personally I would take a 2x3x2 configuration any day of the week from a comfort standpoint (as long as I didn't get the middle seat in the 3 set) - basically 6 out of 7 seats are desirable vs 4 out 6 on 3x3 - the best would be 2x2x2 - but that will never happen.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:44 pm

A 2-3-2 middle seat about an inch wider (or even just better armrests) than the aisle seats could make all seats equally comfortable, and you do have two ways to exit a middle 3 seater.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:48 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 2-3-2 middle seat about an inch wider (or even just better armrests) than the aisle seats could make all seats equally comfortable, and you do have two ways to exit a middle 3 seater.


That's a great idea - like the C-Series. All seats would be desirable then for different reasons.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:06 pm

morrisond wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 2-3-2 middle seat about an inch wider (or even just better armrests) than the aisle seats could make all seats equally comfortable, and you do have two ways to exit a middle 3 seater.


That's a great idea - like the C-Series. All seats would be desirable then for different reasons.

In the A370 of the previous page, it shows wider middle seats and double armrest for all. To make the all economy class seats more comfortable than e.g. a 787.

Image

For the same seat capasity, I think a 3-3 fuselage would be longer but still lighter and carry more standard containers. A 2-3-2 oval cabin would be heavier than anything, I assume that's why nobody wants it.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:28 pm

keesje wrote:
morrisond wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 2-3-2 middle seat about an inch wider (or even just better armrests) than the aisle seats could make all seats equally comfortable, and you do have two ways to exit a middle 3 seater.


That's a great idea - like the C-Series. All seats would be desirable then for different reasons.

In the A370 of the previous page, it shows wider middle seats and double armrest for all. To make the all economy class seats more comfortable than e.g. a 787.

Image

For the same seat capasity, I think a 3-3 fuselage would be longer but still lighter and carry more standard containers. A 2-3-2 oval cabin would be heavier than anything, I assume that's why nobody wants it.


So if we look at your 370-900 it was 53 rows. A 7W would need 46 for the same capacity. That's about 217" less at 31" pitch or about 18'. At the same cross section area you think that the 6W weighs less?

In another post you estimate 800 kg to stretch a 320 1m. This cross section is bigger than 320 but assume the same you have 4,800 kg to turn a 6W 178" circular cross section into a 7W 170" x 184" ovalish shape. That's not that much of a squish and seems quite possible and it would end up lighter.

The 7W could get away with shorter gear as well.
Last edited by morrisond on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:32 pm

A short gear would be a strategic mistake for an aircraft like that. It must be enabled to grow with large diameter engines for future versions and generations. Think about those MAX issues.
 
morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:49 pm

Noshow wrote:
A short gear would be a strategic mistake for an aircraft like that. It must be enabled to grow with large diameter engines for future versions and generations. Think about those MAX issues.


True. You would want to leave room for bigger engines but at 60 m long an A379 limiting factor would be rotation angles.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:58 pm

[url][/url]
twaconnie wrote:
I guess it's to soon for a blended wing design.


And/or an SST ? Or are the current R&D projects at niche companies and NASA going to bear fruit that will see a big player like A or B take it on ?
 
cpd
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Airbus is looking to recruit an “inspirational” leader, to be based in Toulouse, for the future projects office.

Funny that they can't find one of these "inspirational leaders" in house already.

PepeTheFrog wrote:
So, let the guessing begin.

I bet for an electrical (hybrid) narrow body program. Thoughts?

It doesn't work that way, you start with objectives then work towards architecture:

Airbus states that the role will involve defining top-level technical objectives and requirements to enable “robust launch of a new project”, and organising the activities necessary to meet aircraft design needs throughout the feasibility phase.

This feasibility phase – which covers the initial “maturity gate” points from MG1 to MG3 – follows the confirmation that there is a requirement for the aircraft in the market sector, and involves developing the basic architecture to meet this demand, including selection of possible technologies and exploration of industrial scenarios, ahead of the concept phase.

This person's work winds down when the concept phase begins.


Instead of throwing rocks, perhaps you should be that inspirational leader, then we can judge your success in 5 or so years time.
 
Crosswind787
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:01 pm

I see comments about single pilot aircraft and pilotless aircraft, will that ever fly? Will pilots unions or passengers allow less than 2 pilots? In the wake of the MAX where automated technology malfunctioned and competent pilots could do nothing about it, how safe is it to have zero pilots or just one pilot who would incur a massive work load in the event of an emergency? I know I wouldnt fly on a pilotless aircraft.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:03 pm

That fictional A370 is a nice looking plane on paper. Would love to see something like that get built. Put the L2 in a location that is useable like the 757 and it helps with boarding and deplaning.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:05 pm

Crosswind787 wrote:
I see comments about single pilot aircraft and pilotless aircraft, will that ever fly? Will pilots unions or passengers allow less than 2 pilots? In the wake of the MAX where automated technology malfunctioned and competent pilots could do nothing about it, how safe is it to have zero pilots or just one pilot who would incur a massive work load in the event of an emergency? I know I wouldnt fly on a pilotless aircraft.


Once airborne isnt most of the flying auto-mated already? The two pilots are there in case of emergency. I am not sure we will ever get to pilotless. But a single pilot there for an emergency I can see within my lifetime(~40 years).
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:11 pm

Elementalism wrote:
Crosswind787 wrote:
I see comments about single pilot aircraft and pilotless aircraft, will that ever fly? Will pilots unions or passengers allow less than 2 pilots? In the wake of the MAX where automated technology malfunctioned and competent pilots could do nothing about it, how safe is it to have zero pilots or just one pilot who would incur a massive work load in the event of an emergency? I know I wouldnt fly on a pilotless aircraft.


Once airborne isnt most of the flying auto-mated already? The two pilots are there in case of emergency. I am not sure we will ever get to pilotless. But a single pilot there for an emergency I can see within my lifetime(~40 years).


Not at all, just listen to any ATC frequency during thunderstorms, heavy traffic load, or even in normal ops. The physical manipulations of the controls can be automated depending on what level of automation the pilot chooses but the decision making is still 100 percent on the crew.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:16 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
Crosswind787 wrote:
I see comments about single pilot aircraft and pilotless aircraft, will that ever fly? Will pilots unions or passengers allow less than 2 pilots? In the wake of the MAX where automated technology malfunctioned and competent pilots could do nothing about it, how safe is it to have zero pilots or just one pilot who would incur a massive work load in the event of an emergency? I know I wouldnt fly on a pilotless aircraft.


Once airborne isnt most of the flying auto-mated already? The two pilots are there in case of emergency. I am not sure we will ever get to pilotless. But a single pilot there for an emergency I can see within my lifetime(~40 years).


Not at all, just listen to any ATC frequency during thunderstorms, heavy traffic load, or even in normal ops. The physical manipulations of the controls can be automated depending on what level of automation the pilot chooses but the decision making is still 100 percent on the crew.


Right but the flying is mostly automated. That is my point. They are changing course, altitude, speed via the auto-pilot.

So the next step is building logic that will have the capability to route traffic around thunderstorms. Or through congested areas. Google has been working on this for self driving cars.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:48 pm

Elementalism wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Elementalism wrote:

Once airborne isnt most of the flying auto-mated already? The two pilots are there in case of emergency. I am not sure we will ever get to pilotless. But a single pilot there for an emergency I can see within my lifetime(~40 years).


Not at all, just listen to any ATC frequency during thunderstorms, heavy traffic load, or even in normal ops. The physical manipulations of the controls can be automated depending on what level of automation the pilot chooses but the decision making is still 100 percent on the crew.


Right but the flying is mostly automated. That is my point. They are changing course, altitude, speed via the auto-pilot.

So the next step is building logic that will have the capability to route traffic around thunderstorms. Or through congested areas. Google has been working on this for self driving cars.


That would be quite a feat and practically be up to the level of a General AI. It would be a gigantic step compared to what we have now.

I think this is way down the road rather than this generation of new aircraft.
 
morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:54 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:

Not at all, just listen to any ATC frequency during thunderstorms, heavy traffic load, or even in normal ops. The physical manipulations of the controls can be automated depending on what level of automation the pilot chooses but the decision making is still 100 percent on the crew.


Right but the flying is mostly automated. That is my point. They are changing course, altitude, speed via the auto-pilot.

So the next step is building logic that will have the capability to route traffic around thunderstorms. Or through congested areas. Google has been working on this for self driving cars.


That would be quite a feat and practically be up to the level of a General AI. It would be a gigantic step compared to what we have now.

I think this is way down the road rather than this generation of new aircraft.


Garmin now has this in General Aviation https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-aircr ... -autoland/
 
Crosswind787
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:57 pm

Id agree that if its not way down the road, it should be. CRM and 2 pilot crews are a major advantage to safety and decision making. Why would airbus or boeing remove that from the cockpit. AI has not yet shown the ability to be reliable without human oversight/intervention. And public perception of less than 2 pilots is probably not good so moving to fewer pilots after the recent max struggles wouldnt win any aircraft maker more public trust.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:02 am

morrisond wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Elementalism wrote:

Right but the flying is mostly automated. That is my point. They are changing course, altitude, speed via the auto-pilot.

So the next step is building logic that will have the capability to route traffic around thunderstorms. Or through congested areas. Google has been working on this for self driving cars.


That would be quite a feat and practically be up to the level of a General AI. It would be a gigantic step compared to what we have now.

I think this is way down the road rather than this generation of new aircraft.


Garmin now has this in General Aviation https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-aircr ... -autoland/


That isn't even close to what we are proposing. The Garmin autoland requires other pilots to get out of the way, shutting down an airport, and for ATC to plan for that aircraft. It cant sequence, manage an equipment failure, or any of the other tasks that pilots encounter on a daily basis. The only way that it will get certified is because it is better than a pilot experiencing a medical event flying off into the sunset to run out of fuel later.

The belief that automation is the end all be all gets very tiring. I love the equipment in my brand new airplane that is the top of the line Garmin product but to say that it will replace pilots in the next decade or two is not accurate.
Last edited by SierraPacific on Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Babyshark
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:03 am

A new single-aisle aircraft according to the article?

That strikes the stretch of the 220. Which even after they shut down that line, bleach bit the engineering computers and scrap all the frames someone here will still ask for the 220 to be stretched to the 225. Those airframes have enough MELs as is, we don't need to make it longer, we'll run out of MEL stickers. And the demand is for 320s anyways and why spend the money to split the profits with a new airframe around the corner?

The 322 still makes sense in the short term.

Maybe a flying wing. About time.

Single pilot? For domestic ops that's asking for problems and failures. If they really wanted to pull something off it would be an A330 or A350 that only required 2 pilots instead of 3 or 4 on the long flights. You'd have 2 pilots for takeoff and landing, and 1 for cruise backed up by ground ops/computers while the other is on break. Unions would rightfully fight it and I would demand ALPA fight it, but I could see them pulling that off rather easily with what they have. So I don't think they'll do single-pilot unless they've really got a trick up their sleeve.

As for automating the airplane to fly around thunderstorms, you're not talking about automating the cockpit in that scenario but automating ATC. Going around the weather is not the problem, getting permission to go where you want is far harder. An airplane that interacts with ATC would be pretty slick but that requires ATC to be upgraded and none of that needs a clean sheet. The real problem with single pilot is when you have a QF32 type incident and no ACARS or radios and one pilot.
Last edited by Babyshark on Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
Crosswind787
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:03 am

I would hope Airbus next move is to finish the 757 replacement job by developing a 757-300 sized A321 (the a322?) and the A220-500 to replace the A320
 
airzona11
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:19 am

keesje wrote:
morrisond wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 2-3-2 middle seat about an inch wider (or even just better armrests) than the aisle seats could make all seats equally comfortable, and you do have two ways to exit a middle 3 seater.


That's a great idea - like the C-Series. All seats would be desirable then for different reasons.

In the A370 of the previous page, it shows wider middle seats and double armrest for all. To make the all economy class seats more comfortable than e.g. a 787.

Image

For the same seat capasity, I think a 3-3 fuselage would be longer but still lighter and carry more standard containers. A 2-3-2 oval cabin would be heavier than anything, I assume that's why nobody wants it.


That is some hefty wingspan, limits gate options.
 
planecane
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:25 am

RalXWB wrote:
Funny, this is contrary to the Anet-myth that only Boeing develops new projects and Airbus is only following. This is not meant to be flamebait, it is just a fact. IMO they are working on an A330 successor first and then the new single aisle project.


Neither is developing anything at this point (well, I guess the 777X is still considered development). Boeing has been "preparing" the 737/757 replacement for a decade or more.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:10 am

I feel a modern A306 / A310 would be a good candidate, lightened frame updated. A330neo cockpit and architecture and a new wing sized for say a 5,500 nm range would be quite viable.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:18 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
I feel a modern A306 / A310 would be a good candidate, lightened frame updated. A330neo cockpit and architecture and a new wing sized for say a 5,500 nm range would be quite viable.


As much a fan of the A300/310/330/340 as I am, it's time to let it go.

Airbus doesn't need any commonality with the A320/330 on a new design either, other than the Airbus flight control architecture. It's high time to go clean sheet and come up with a new design which will serve a a middle of the market base for decades to come.

The lower end of the market is sorted for now with the A220. The upper end with the A350. I reckon the A32x only has one further evolutive iteration in it before it has to be binned as well, and by then it would only be an 'also ran' to whatever Boeing's NSA/NMA will be.

I'd go for a new larger frame encompassing 180 to 300+ seats good for around 5 to 6000 nm range that would still satisfy the vast majority of the A320/738 replacement market at the lower end and fulfill the growing need for a 250 seat transatlantic / Asian transcon machine.

But that's easier said than done. Especially when one is too small for a twin aisle widebody and the other too large for a single aisle narrowbody... Hence the above debate between a wide aisled 3+3 or a narrow 2+3+2 twin aisle.

Interesting times.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
sabby
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:44 am

I see two options. Either a re-winged and stretched A322/A323 for 2 class 210 pax that can fly 12 hours. Or a new composite frame with A350 cockpit commonality and 3 class 225 pax / 2 class 260 pax that can fly for 13-14 hours.

For the first case, the challenge would be crew rest and lower cruise speed compared to modern jets. Can Airbus increase cruise speed by re-designing the wing ? Is it possible to have crew rest in the rear cargo hold ?
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:04 am

I don't see this extreme range requirement. What they need is some higher capacity medium route airplane not ULR. Nobody wants to pay for that huge wing. Something like a 787-3 but cheaper to produce and not with cut off wingtips would be the way to go.
 
ewt340
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:36 am

c933103 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
The 2 next projects that are viable would probably A330's replacements, New Narrow Body/Stretched A220.

And A350neo and A321XLR+++


I think the A350NEO would just be another engine options for Airlines by GE. Some minor improvements could be added like higher mtow and/or thrust. But it would just be an enhanced version of A350.

This would be similar to 249-tonne A330 that was launched in 2012. Also some engine options for A330 are certified 10 years after the original options. (General Electric CF6-80E1A3)
 
ewt340
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:41 am

A370 concept is stupid. Sorry, but:

1. Airlines would prefer A322neo instead of A370. Training costs, transition costs, maintenance costs, additional operational costs would make A370 obsolete.
2. Commonality with A320neo and A321neo is a big selling point for Airlines.
3. Airbus could replace A320neo with stretched A220. This would forced airbus to developed new A320neo's family line up. Most likely A322 rather than A370. (They wouldn't kill the successful A321neo for A370)
4. Airbus would spend less money developing A322 than a brand new clean sheet A370.
5. Narrow aisle is the key to efficiency. While I do love the idea of wide aisle, the fact of the matter is that aisle doesn't generate revenue.
6. There is a big reason to why Boeing hasn't launch their B797 program yet. And you know exactly why.
 
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capshandler
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:34 am

Revelation wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Airbus is looking to recruit an “inspirational” leader, to be based in Toulouse, for the future projects office.

Funny that they can't find one of these "inspirational leaders" in house already.


They should ask Bertrand Piccard how the bureaucracy prevailing in traditional manufacturers prevented a disruptive innovation such as the Solar Impulse. There you have an inspirational leader who by the way, will tell them that the traditional approach to innovation does not work at all. Today we inflict limitations from the entrance of the project itself and the capacities of adaptation or improvisation are unexisting.
 
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c933103
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:37 am

ewt340 wrote:
A370 concept is stupid. Sorry, but:

1. Airlines would prefer A322neo instead of A370. Training costs, transition costs, maintenance costs, additional operational costs would make A370 obsolete.
2. Commonality with A320neo and A321neo is a big selling point for Airlines.
3. Airbus could replace A320neo with stretched A220. This would forced airbus to developed new A320neo's family line up. Most likely A322 rather than A370. (They wouldn't kill the successful A321neo for A370)
4. Airbus would spend less money developing A322 than a brand new clean sheet A370.
5. Narrow aisle is the key to efficiency. While I do love the idea of wide aisle, the fact of the matter is that aisle doesn't generate revenue.
6. There is a big reason to why Boeing hasn't launch their B797 program yet. And you know exactly why.

That's why technological breakthrough that help boost efficiency is being specified
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Jomar777
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:06 am

Zaf wrote:
maybe they replace A319 and 320 with larger versions of A220.
And this new development narrowbody 250-300 seats will replace A321, A321XLR, A300, A310 , 757.

Hopefully they develop new technologies. Single pilot or no pilot. hybrid powered.


Agree with you 150% on the Nb development - makes perfect sense.

The Hybrid/Alternative Power is also something that definitely needs to be prioritized but I see this being something fro RR, P&W, GE, etc to drive and they should do it.

Single/No Pilot? I thnk we are not yet ready for it by a milestone - I am sorry.

Single Pilot - I still remember thet Germanwings accident in the Alps
No Pilot - I see the driverless car tests and implementation which is yet not going that well...
 
Sokes
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:09 am

flipdewaf wrote:
60-80 seat RJ....1500nm max range

Fred


Good idea.


Taxi645 wrote:
Any (natural, sfc improvement combined) tech/capabilty evolution on the A320 will improve it's positioning in relation to the MoM and the A220. Any (natural/sfc improvement combined) tech/capability evolution on the A330 however will move it even further away from an underserved part of the market and closer to the segment that the current (already too close) A350 is serving.

Therefore I find it more likely that the A320 will get another big update (if it is estimated to be able to compete sufficiently with an all new Boeing NB), where as the A330 will be replaced entirely by a much much lighter and tighter 8-abreast with a range reset closer to MoM and further away from the A350


I first agreed with your post. Later I got doubts.
I wonder if the point of any widebody is cargo capability. If one doesn't want cargo a new wing on an A321 is good. If one has cargo one also desires range.
I guess that's why there is such a huge MTOW gap between the heaviest narrowbodies and lightest widebodies.


ewt340 wrote:
A370 concept is stupid. Sorry, but:
...
6. There is a big reason to why Boeing hasn't launch their B797 program yet. And you know exactly why.


Are you refering to missing engines or to seven abreast having too much (aisle area and wetted area) / seat?
I always wonder how Keesje comes up with his drawings. Makes me feel stupid.


Maybe at today's fuel prices there is just no business case for any new cleansheet. I like the B797 idea. But even once engines become available I'm not sure if it's worth it. The B767 was 7 abreast because engines at a time were weak and any bigger plane wouldn't have had the desired range. The plane was designed around the engine, not the engine designed for the plane. I believe a new wing for the A321 is what is most needed. Everything else I doubt.

What about a six abreast 35 m wing turboprop?
A319 Neo OEW: 42,6 t
A220-300 OEW: 37,1 t
Q400 ....... OEW: 17,8 t
ATR-72 .... OEW: 13,5 t
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keesje
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:29 am

An A370 type big NB would be significant haeavier and costlier than a A321XLR. But 40t lighter then a 787/A330. And way cheaper to buy & operate, that's the pitch.

Everybody has been repeating / dreaming for 5-6 years 7 abreast oval is a good idea, without any substantiation. Contrary, people with a little mechanical / materials background aired doubts about the concept but were overwelmed by enthousiam / the rush. Like we see so often. But you can't change physics, not even with earth moving, NextGen, awesome technology where we are just starting to explore it's full potential. Nope, carbon & metals hulls and it needs to be certified. W're back on sea level.

Very long haul NB is a nice thought / experiment. I don't think there a real big markets. Airlines probably don't want expensive hub slots / overfly rights filled with small capacity aircraft. Most longhaul is Asia, that market has volume and significant cargo opportunity for most flights, that you don't want to leave behind for your compertitors.

The nice thing about a shot/medium haul optimized aircraft is, it is still efficient on the many shorter flights.
You don't want to beef it up too much risking you create a one trick pony..
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Some1Somewhere
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:41 am

SierraPacific wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:

Not at all, just listen to any ATC frequency during thunderstorms, heavy traffic load, or even in normal ops. The physical manipulations of the controls can be automated depending on what level of automation the pilot chooses but the decision making is still 100 percent on the crew.


Right but the flying is mostly automated. That is my point. They are changing course, altitude, speed via the auto-pilot.

So the next step is building logic that will have the capability to route traffic around thunderstorms. Or through congested areas. Google has been working on this for self driving cars.


That would be quite a feat and practically be up to the level of a General AI. It would be a gigantic step compared to what we have now.

I think this is way down the road rather than this generation of new aircraft.

No reason ATC can't do it.

Transmit weather radar down to the ground and you have a massive amount of data available. On top of that, you can quantitatively measure turbulence and windspeed/direction at altitude.

Then baby steps from there.

I kind-of have a gut feeling that aviation will go fairly quickly from two pilots to none, without much single pilot operation. One pilot means either no protection against Germanwings type incidents because you can pull breakers until it switches to manual, or you prevent the pilot forcing manual operation at which point why are they there?
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:44 am

Sokes wrote:

What about a six abreast 35 m wing turboprop?
A319 Neo OEW: 42,6 t
A220-300 OEW: 37,1 t
Q400 ....... OEW: 17,8 t
ATR-72 .... OEW: 13,5 t


It was discussed an extreme long time ago https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/319455-new-big-prop-facing-a320-737-turboliner.html and I powerpointed a Turboliner, losely based on a BA146 and TP400 configuration. It had direct lift control, wheeltug etc. and ended up with an OEW of around 27t.

Props have disadvantages, if they are really big the landing gear becomes either long (Q400) or needs to have its own pylons (ATR). Props tend to be noiey in an more irritating way.. I guess the more efficient ducted geared fans won the battle so far.

Image
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flipdewaf
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:52 am

Taxi645 wrote:
Any (natural, sfc improvement combined) tech/capabilty evolution on the A320 will improve it's positioning in relation to the MoM and the A220. Any (natural/sfc improvement combined) tech/capability evolution on the A330 however will move it even further away from an underserved part of the market and closer to the segment that the current (already too close) A350 is serving.

Therefore I find it more likely that the A320 will get another big update (if it is estimated to be able to compete sufficiently with an all new Boeing NB), where as the A330 will be replaced entirely by a much much lighter and tighter 8-abreast with a range reset closer to MoM and further away from the A350


I agree that the top end of the ‘sweet spot’ moves up with the improvements in sfc/aero etc but the bottom end does not move up or if it does no where near at the same speed. We see the 737 an A32x aircraft swallowing the old 757 market and not relinquishing the bottom end in any significant way. Their appeal doesn’t get to longer range sit spreads out. This same phenomenon can be seen in the wide body market in what used to be the sole preserve of the specialist ULR jets (77l,SP etc) can now be done by a (pretty much) run of the mill A350-1000 which is equally at home shuttling across the Atlantic. There is a capacity gap but not a big enough gap in economic performance at any given range to drop something in between the top of the current narrow bodies and the bottom of the current wide-bodies, the cost(weight) of long range performance has dropped and is still dropping such that it isn’t impacting short range costs enough to matter.

10years ago there was the 767, 777, 787, 747, A330, A340, A380.

In 10years I wouldn’t be shocked to be down to 2 wide body families. 787 and A350.


Sokes wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
60-80 seat RJ....1500nm max range

Fred


Good idea.

If I were running Airbus and was able to choose where and why to launch an aircraft family I would shy away from the areas currently established and trying to trump Boeing.

Boeing are going through a tough patch , I think we all recognise this and whilst there is a lot of gloating seeming to be happening I don’t think airbus are as stupid to think that it isn’t an incredible company filled with incredibly talented people, sometimes shit happens.

Airbus made a smart move in the C-series and Frankly Boeing should have done it first, Boeing’s plan to team up with Embrear seems logical as to aid in the design and manufacture of the next narrow body. If Airbus attacks Boeing in the middle of where it hurts then they run the risk of Boeing coming back with ‘total war’. You wouldn’t want to make it a do or die for Boeing because they’d do.. and then you might die.

Developing an RJ would allow Airbus to ensure the engineers keep their hands in and keep the domain specific skills high whilst distracting Boeing’s new partner by upsetting their cash cows... not a full attack but an annoying strategically placed thorn.

Fred




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morrisond
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:04 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
morrisond wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:

That would be quite a feat and practically be up to the level of a General AI. It would be a gigantic step compared to what we have now.

I think this is way down the road rather than this generation of new aircraft.


Garmin now has this in General Aviation https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-aircr ... -autoland/


That isn't even close to what we are proposing. The Garmin autoland requires other pilots to get out of the way, shutting down an airport, and for ATC to plan for that aircraft. It cant sequence, manage an equipment failure, or any of the other tasks that pilots encounter on a daily basis. The only way that it will get certified is because it is better than a pilot experiencing a medical event flying off into the sunset to run out of fuel later.

The belief that automation is the end all be all gets very tiring. I love the equipment in my brand new airplane that is the top of the line Garmin product but to say that it will replace pilots in the next decade or two is not accurate.


I totally get that - but I was just replying to Elementalism talk about the next step being to automatically route around Weather.

Garmin safe return does that already - and could be used in Single Pilot solutions. We do have sensors in cars that can tell when a driver is being inattentive or falling asleep - we could have the same in Single pilot and if the system senses the pilot is incapacitated it takes over and lands at the first suitable airport.

ATC would be alerted that something is amiss and they can clear traffic.
 
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DL717
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:12 pm

Seems like a pretty easy task given their position right now with the exception of the power plant. The Neo has put them in a great spot for the next decade. An incremental step in the engine and build it tall enough for a bigger engine in the future.

Add the A220-500 and dump the 319.
Build a plane between the A320 and A321, another above the A321 with an L2, and ability to grow an addition 20%.
Range between 4000 and 5000 miles.
A220 seat widths, maybe a somewhat taller cabin to go with the slightly wide cabin width.
Solve the smelly sock problem.

flipdewaf wrote:
60-80 seat RJ....1500nm max range

Fred


Not a bad idea either. T-tail with the ability to ramp load like the CRJ with a larger cabin comparable to the E-Jet for small markets. Capable to handle a GTF sized engine. Maybe go with something similar to the Dornier 328/428. There is a void there right now to support small markets. That or a Turboprop that doesn’t need ice boots to provide passenger acceptance/end turboprop avoidance as icing related crashes is at the crux of that issue. Take full control of ATR and use their infrastructure to build it. 40/60/80 seat props probably makes the most sense. Gotta get past the 17 seat crush the pax cabin though. Needs E-Jet comfort levels.
Last edited by DL717 on Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:30 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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morrisond
Posts: 2664
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:15 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
Any (natural, sfc improvement combined) tech/capabilty evolution on the A320 will improve it's positioning in relation to the MoM and the A220. Any (natural/sfc improvement combined) tech/capability evolution on the A330 however will move it even further away from an underserved part of the market and closer to the segment that the current (already too close) A350 is serving.

Therefore I find it more likely that the A320 will get another big update (if it is estimated to be able to compete sufficiently with an all new Boeing NB), where as the A330 will be replaced entirely by a much much lighter and tighter 8-abreast with a range reset closer to MoM and further away from the A350


I agree that the top end of the ‘sweet spot’ moves up with the improvements in sfc/aero etc but the bottom end does not move up or if it does no where near at the same speed. We see the 737 an A32x aircraft swallowing the old 757 market and not relinquishing the bottom end in any significant way. Their appeal doesn’t get to longer range sit spreads out. This same phenomenon can be seen in the wide body market in what used to be the sole preserve of the specialist ULR jets (77l,SP etc) can now be done by a (pretty much) run of the mill A350-1000 which is equally at home shuttling across the Atlantic. There is a capacity gap but not a big enough gap in economic performance at any given range to drop something in between the top of the current narrow bodies and the bottom of the current wide-bodies, the cost(weight) of long range performance has dropped and is still dropping such that it isn’t impacting short range costs enough to matter.

10years ago there was the 767, 777, 787, 747, A330, A340, A380.

In 10years I wouldn’t be shocked to be down to 2 wide body families. 787 and A350.


Sokes wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
60-80 seat RJ....1500nm max range

Fred


Good idea.

If I were running Airbus and was able to choose where and why to launch an aircraft family I would shy away from the areas currently established and trying to trump Boeing.

Boeing are going through a tough patch , I think we all recognise this and whilst there is a lot of gloating seeming to be happening I don’t think airbus are as stupid to think that it isn’t an incredible company filled with incredibly talented people, sometimes shit happens.

Airbus made a smart move in the C-series and Frankly Boeing should have done it first, Boeing’s plan to team up with Embrear seems logical as to aid in the design and manufacture of the next narrow body. If Airbus attacks Boeing in the middle of where it hurts then they run the risk of Boeing coming back with ‘total war’. You wouldn’t want to make it a do or die for Boeing because they’d do.. and then you might die.

Developing an RJ would allow Airbus to ensure the engineers keep their hands in and keep the domain specific skills high whilst distracting Boeing’s new partner by upsetting their cash cows... not a full attack but an annoying strategically placed thorn.

Fred




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I agree with what you said mostly - but I think instead of an RJ - they should attack that space but with a new super efficient large and fast turbo-prop like solution for all the routes under 1,000-1,500.

Something that sets the bar very high in terms of efficiency and low environmental impact.

Slotting in below the A223 in size (I think the A221 will probably die as stretching the A220 to a 500 and 700 just makes too much sense) so you can go up to A221 in size.

Call it a 100 and 125 seater in all Y - reuse the C-series Cross section and nose. 100 Seater can fly up to say 1,800nm - 125 seats up to 1,500NM.

They have the room (as Boeing seems to be very pre-occupied right now and bandwidth right now to do to focus on this part of the market.

So new Turboprop based on C-Series (Just like the Dash 8 and CRJ are relatively common in the Fuselage (I think that just could be bad memory) and stretch the 220 to 500 and 700.

However if you are going to do all that - you might as well move them to Airbus A350 architecture for Cockpit and controls for commonality while you are at it.

That would keep them busy! Plus might as well as do A322 simple stretch.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:32 pm

ATR has been pushing a bigger prop designs over the years, entirely new ones,
http://manny4life-airline-economics.blo ... oprop.html,

but also bigger versions of the ATR-72. the ATR82 in the late nineties.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KnON ... Airbus.jpg

Airbus has so far been the blocking party in the JV with Leonardo. The latter even threatened to go alone..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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DL717
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:34 pm

keesje wrote:
Sokes wrote:

What about a six abreast 35 m wing turboprop?
A319 Neo OEW: 42,6 t
A220-300 OEW: 37,1 t
Q400 ....... OEW: 17,8 t
ATR-72 .... OEW: 13,5 t


It was discussed an extreme long time ago https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/319455-new-big-prop-facing-a320-737-turboliner.html and I powerpointed a Turboliner, losely based on a BA146 and TP400 configuration. It had direct lift control, wheeltug etc. and ended up with an OEW of around 27t.

Props have disadvantages, if they are really big the landing gear becomes either long (Q400) or needs to have its own pylons (ATR). Props tend to be noiey in an more irritating way.. I guess the more efficient ducted geared fans won the battle so far.

Image


This is a pretty tall order. You’d need a pretty big engine, if not 4 of them to support it. That would negate a good chunk of the fuel savings.
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keesje
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:43 pm

DL717 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Sokes wrote:

What about a six abreast 35 m wing turboprop?
A319 Neo OEW: 42,6 t
A220-300 OEW: 37,1 t
Q400 ....... OEW: 17,8 t
ATR-72 .... OEW: 13,5 t


It was discussed an extreme long time ago https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/319455-new-big-prop-facing-a320-737-turboliner.html and I powerpointed a Turboliner, losely based on a BA146 and TP400 configuration. It had direct lift control, wheeltug etc. and ended up with an OEW of around 27t.

Props have disadvantages, if they are really big the landing gear becomes either long (Q400) or needs to have its own pylons (ATR). Props tend to be noiey in an more irritating way.. I guess the more efficient ducted geared fans won the battle so far.

Image


This is a pretty tall order. You’d need a pretty big engine, if not 4 of them to support it. That would negate a good chunk of the fuel savings.


I used the only existing modern big one, TP400. It seems 11.000 shp should do the job with a good margin..

Image
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jpiddink
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:57 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
just listen to any ATC frequency during thunderstorms, heavy traffic load, or even in normal ops. The physical manipulations of the controls can be automated depending on what level of automation the pilot chooses but the decision making is still 100 percent on the crew.


True, but why should that decision making take place on board of the airplane? If the physical manipulations can be automated (as you say) and we can establish a permanent reliable data connection to the airplane (SpaceX satellite network for instance), then 90% of the flights can be flown with automated operation. An airline could establish an operational control center for the 10% of flights that experience conditions that (still) require human decisionmaking, employing pilots without having to pay nights-away-from-home bonusses.

It is really interesting to imagine what other 'technological breakthroughs' as Airbus refers to could trigger a clean sheet design, especially from outside the classical aviation technologies.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:29 pm

ewt340 wrote:
A370 concept is stupid. Sorry, but:

1. Airlines would prefer A322neo instead of A370. Training costs, transition costs, maintenance costs, additional operational costs would make A370 obsolete.
2. Commonality with A320neo and A321neo is a big selling point for Airlines.
3. Airbus could replace A320neo with stretched A220. This would forced airbus to developed new A320neo's family line up. Most likely A322 rather than A370. (They wouldn't kill the successful A321neo for A370)
4. Airbus would spend less money developing A322 than a brand new clean sheet A370.
5. Narrow aisle is the key to efficiency. While I do love the idea of wide aisle, the fact of the matter is that aisle doesn't generate revenue.
6. There is a big reason to why Boeing hasn't launch their B797 program yet. And you know exactly why.


Given the differences in size between the A319,A320, and A321. Is the commonality built into the software? Honest question, I am not well versed with what makes them common. If it is in the software what I am getting at, the planes have the same feel\flight characteristics due to the underlying FBW. What would stop Airbus from building this fictional A370 and making the software fly it like the A320 series?

I would imagine the A322 would require a new wing, new engines, gear box. So how close would they be to a new design anyways?

I suspect the 797 program is stalled due to the underlying MAX issues. And realization they need a replacement for that series in the next decade. The MOM\797 has demand. Look at the A321 LR\XLR. But those still represent a few hundred frames vs thousands of 737s and A320\321 NEOs.

Im still of the contention the 757 was a decade or 15 years too early. With slot restrictions becoming a real thing in parts of the world. A larger efficient NB would fit the bill for many carriers. The fictional A370 in this thread looks damn sexy imo.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:31 pm

ewt340 wrote:
A370 concept is stupid. Sorry, but:

1. Airlines would prefer A322neo instead of A370. Training costs, transition costs, maintenance costs, additional operational costs would make A370 obsolete.
2. Commonality with A320neo and A321neo is a big selling point for Airlines.
3. Airbus could replace A320neo with stretched A220. This would forced airbus to developed new A320neo's family line up. Most likely A322 rather than A370. (They wouldn't kill the successful A321neo for A370)
4. Airbus would spend less money developing A322 than a brand new clean sheet A370.
5. Narrow aisle is the key to efficiency. While I do love the idea of wide aisle, the fact of the matter is that aisle doesn't generate revenue.
6. There is a big reason to why Boeing hasn't launch their B797 program yet. And you know exactly why.

It does generate revenue in a backhanded way. No aircraft generates revenue sitting in the gate waiting for 250 people to schlep on/off the aircraft. It makes money in the air hauling the. If the wide aisle saves time at the gate, an aircraft could conceivably fly another segment each day generating extra revenue.

An even more subtle way is pax preference in booking flights that allow them to head for the lav during a meal/drink service. Could an airline charge a slight premium on flights with this feature? I know I would go out of my way for that on a longer flight, the uninformed public, not so much. A small bump in revenue is still better than no bump, all other things being equal.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
Elementalism
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Re: Airbus preparing next major aircraft development

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:38 pm

A long NB like the proposed A370 can alleviate some of the passenger issues by strategically placing L2 so a sizeable portion of the passengers sit in front of it. So people are flowing out from both sides of the plane. Somebody also mentioned making it wider so 2 people can get off at a time. The 757s seem to be fine deplaning using L2. I fly them often on Delta. 2 days ago seat 42B, today seat 15A. Getting off from 42B was no worse than any 737 or A321. 15A will be easy peasy tonight.

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