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Web500sjc
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:19 pm

https://news.delta.com/sites/default/fi ... HUB-01.png


Attached is the marketing announcement DL used to introduce the A350. The headline is “Delta’s New Flagship Aircraft. Airbus A350”

That is the only time in the page that the word “flagship” is used. Clearly referring to the fact that A350 is “the pride of Delta’s fleet.”
Last edited by Web500sjc on Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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JAMBOJET
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:21 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Regardless of the reasoning behind Delta's decision to use the word "Flagship" two things Delta has going for them and one thing not:

Going For:
2) The definition of Flagship according to Google internet search of "Flagship": the best or most important thing owned or produced by a particular organization. Enough said.
.

But why is a centuries old term describing the lead ship housing the fleet admiral now considered to mean that?
Because, for decades, one very large and prominent aviation company has been applying it to a premium product for a very long time.
Googling “flagship” and using that as the decision is like googling “Kleenex”, getting a result that says “tissue paper” then saying any company should be able to use the term Kleenex in their marketing.
The only reason Flagship has the premium connotation that it does today, particularly in aviation is because of American’s consistent usage of it in that way for decades.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:30 pm

The real Reverse Equivalent Would be American doing mailer after mailer and marketing Sky and Miles over and over again.
The Sky and Miles aren’t terms unique to delta, but they are unique when applied to mileage programs in the aviation industry.

Not that American would ever do that, why devalue the AAdvantage brand that badly
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:35 pm

If we were to search for 'flagship' in this forum there would be thousands of hits, about all of them relating to aviation. I have always thought it a meaningless term. In marine naval usage it designated the ship an admiral of the fleet uses as his home ship. A flag flies when he is aboard. Delta likely will submit 10K pages each using the word 'flagship', all relating to aviation and none of them from American Airlines. As applied to lounges etc I find the term etymologically silly. It says I am going to a place where I definitely will not be the top dog - that is always the admiral, and typically at his beck and call.
Last edited by frmrCapCadet on Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:36 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Regardless of the reasoning behind Delta's decision to use the word "Flagship" two things Delta has going for them and one thing not:

Going For:
2) The definition of Flagship according to Google internet search of "Flagship": the best or most important thing owned or produced by a particular organization. Enough said.
.

But why is a centuries old term describing the lead ship housing the fleet admiral now considered to mean that?
Because, for decades, one very large and prominent aviation company has been applying it to a premium product for a very long time.
Googling “flagship” and using that as the decision is like googling “Kleenex”, getting a result that says “tissue paper” then saying any company should be able to use the term Kleenex in their marketing.
The only reason Flagship has the premium connotation that it does today, particularly in aviation is because of American’s consistent usage of it in that way for decades.



Appreciate your comment. No doubt Flagship provides an American Airlines feel to me personally just by the years and years of following the industry. I think Delta is being a bit shrewd here, but nonetheless bordering legality.

To your example on Kleenex: that is the actual brand name of a company. Delta is not labeling anything "American". So I do get the gist of your point, but specifically it does not apply here.

And are you claiming that the definition I provided to you of "Flagship" was only created because of American's use of the word for branding purposes?

In closing: I edited my comment earlier to say that American's case here may be that Delta should only be relegated to use flagship in a sentence or fragment and not to similate a branding in red brackground.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:43 pm

Assuming that this suit is not summarily dismissed, the ensuing court case will be interesting to watch, IMO. Does anyone on this board have access to court briefs who can post the links to the public documents here? If not the documents, at least a written synopsis? Lots of folks here will be interested in following this tussle.

AA should focus their time and resources on closing their revenue deficit versus DL and on improving their profitability. I agree with others who have opined that people seeing 'FLAGSHIP' labels on DELTA's A350 flight offerings are not in any way going to think of AA and be confused versus AA's product offerings.
Last edited by DL747400 on Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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reltney
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:44 pm

Will American Airlines sue the US navy? They have been using the term “flagship” since.......well, since they had ships....
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seat1a
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:48 pm

Perhaps American Airlines could spend it's hard earned money on front line employees, or it's hard and soft product, instead of lawyers and the additional overhead this creates.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:54 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Regardless of the reasoning behind Delta's decision to use the word "Flagship" two things Delta has going for them and one thing not:

Going For:
2) The definition of Flagship according to Google internet search of "Flagship": the best or most important thing owned or produced by a particular organization. Enough said.
.

But why is a centuries old term describing the lead ship housing the fleet admiral now considered to mean that?
Because, for decades, one very large and prominent aviation company has been applying it to a premium product for a very long time.
Googling “flagship” and using that as the decision is like googling “Kleenex”, getting a result that says “tissue paper” then saying any company should be able to use the term Kleenex in their marketing.
The only reason Flagship has the premium connotation that it does today, particularly in aviation is because of American’s consistent usage of it in that way for decades.



Appreciate your comment. No doubt Flagship provides an American Airlines feel to me personally just by the years and years of following the industry. I think Delta is being a bit shrewd here, but nonetheless bordering legality.

To your example on Kleenex: that is the actual brand name of a company. Delta is not labeling anything "American". So I do get the gist of your point, but specifically it does not apply here.

And are you claiming that the definition I provided to you of "Flagship" was only created because of American's use of the word for branding purposes?

In closing: I edited my comment earlier to say that American's case here may be that Delta should only be relegated to use flagship in a sentence or fragment and not to similate a branding in red brackground.

I agree that The Kleenex example is a broad clear-cut exaggeration/example of this case that most would find easily agreeable as a violation but it is very specific and topical. Kleenex is not a company. Kimberly-Clark is. Kleenex is the brand name of one of the several products they offer under that name. Flagship is also the Brand for several products that American sells.
Both are trademarked.

And no, I don’t think American is solely responsible for the current English usage of the term Flagship. But the word’s connotation as a premium offering in English is heavily influenced by American’s usage of it as such.
I’d struggle to think of any other marketing that has used Flagship in that way for decades, aviation or not.
Just like when you use “i” in front of any word, people now immediately think tech and Apple: iWatch, iPhone, etc. you can literally put “i” in front of any word and create the marketing connotation Apple wants: iCouch, iCar, Etc
Apple didn’t create the letter i. American didn’t invent the word Flagship, but both heavily marketed its usage in current English to create certain connotations, particularly in aviation for flagship, and both have trademarked those usages as a result.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:57 pm

DL747400 wrote:
I agree with others who have opined that people seeing 'FLAGSHIP' labels on DELTA's A360 flight offerings are not in any way going to think of AA and be confused versus AA's product offerings.


I agree also. Delta fan here. But to be fair, every company has a right to think they are better and to differentiate/protect any long-term equity they think they have built over the years, especially at a time when American is looking to overhaul their product into the future where Flagship in the American context will have new and exciting offerings.
Just saying.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:04 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Assuming that this suit is not summarily dismissed, the ensuing court case will be interesting to watch, IMO. Does anyone on this board have access to court briefs who can post the links to the public documents here? If not the documents, at least a written synopsis? Lots of folks here will be interested in following this tussle.

AA should focus their time and resources on closing their revenue deficit versus DL and on improving their profitability. I agree with others who have opined that people seeing 'FLAGSHIP' labels on DELTA's A350 flight offerings are not in any way going to think of AA and be confused versus AA's product offerings.

The lawsuit is about a lot more than the a350 usage. It applies to lounges, premium services, and interiors,

https://onemileatatime.com/american-sui ... -flagship/
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:09 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
But why is a centuries old term describing the lead ship housing the fleet admiral now considered to mean that?
Because, for decades, one very large and prominent aviation company has been applying it to a premium product for a very long time.
Googling “flagship” and using that as the decision is like googling “Kleenex”, getting a result that says “tissue paper” then saying any company should be able to use the term Kleenex in their marketing.
The only reason Flagship has the premium connotation that it does today, particularly in aviation is because of American’s consistent usage of it in that way for decades.



Appreciate your comment. No doubt Flagship provides an American Airlines feel to me personally just by the years and years of following the industry. I think Delta is being a bit shrewd here, but nonetheless bordering legality.

To your example on Kleenex: that is the actual brand name of a company. Delta is not labeling anything "American". So I do get the gist of your point, but specifically it does not apply here.

And are you claiming that the definition I provided to you of "Flagship" was only created because of American's use of the word for branding purposes?

In closing: I edited my comment earlier to say that American's case here may be that Delta should only be relegated to use flagship in a sentence or fragment and not to similate a branding in red brackground.

I agree that The Kleenex example is a broad clear-cut exaggeration/example of this case that most would find easily agreeable as a violation but it is very specific and topical. Kleenex is not a company. Kimberly-Clark is. Kleenex is the brand name of one of the several products they offer under that name. Flagship is also the Brand for several products that American sells.
Both are trademarked.

And no, I don’t think American is solely responsible for the current English usage of the term Flagship. But the word’s connotation as a premium offering in English is heavily influenced by American’s usage of it as such.
I’d struggle to think of any other marketing that has used Flagship in that way for decades, aviation or not.
Just like when you use “i” in front of any word, people now immediately think tech and Apple: iWatch, iPhone, etc. you can literally put “i” in front of any word and create the marketing connotation Apple wants: iCouch, iCar, Etc
Apple didn’t create the letter i. American didn’t invent the word Flagship, but both heavily marketed its usage in current English to create certain connotations, particularly in aviation for flagship, and both have trademarked those usages as a result.


Kimberly-Clark is to Kleenex as AAG is to American.

Kleenex is to Tissue as American is to Airline.

Tissue is to........(?)........ as Flagship is to ......(?).......

Like I said, personally, Flagship does have brand equity to American just from me following the industry since the 80's, but Delta's use borders legality. Not to say they should augment the use of it.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:15 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:


Appreciate your comment. No doubt Flagship provides an American Airlines feel to me personally just by the years and years of following the industry. I think Delta is being a bit shrewd here, but nonetheless bordering legality.

To your example on Kleenex: that is the actual brand name of a company. Delta is not labeling anything "American". So I do get the gist of your point, but specifically it does not apply here.

And are you claiming that the definition I provided to you of "Flagship" was only created because of American's use of the word for branding purposes?

In closing: I edited my comment earlier to say that American's case here may be that Delta should only be relegated to use flagship in a sentence or fragment and not to similate a branding in red brackground.

I agree that The Kleenex example is a broad clear-cut exaggeration/example of this case that most would find easily agreeable as a violation but it is very specific and topical. Kleenex is not a company. Kimberly-Clark is. Kleenex is the brand name of one of the several products they offer under that name. Flagship is also the Brand for several products that American sells.
Both are trademarked.

And no, I don’t think American is solely responsible for the current English usage of the term Flagship. But the word’s connotation as a premium offering in English is heavily influenced by American’s usage of it as such.
I’d struggle to think of any other marketing that has used Flagship in that way for decades, aviation or not.
Just like when you use “i” in front of any word, people now immediately think tech and Apple: iWatch, iPhone, etc. you can literally put “i” in front of any word and create the marketing connotation Apple wants: iCouch, iCar, Etc
Apple didn’t create the letter i. American didn’t invent the word Flagship, but both heavily marketed its usage in current English to create certain connotations, particularly in aviation for flagship, and both have trademarked those usages as a result.


Kimberly-Clark is to Kleenex as AAG is to American.

Kleenex is to Tissue as American is to Airline.

Tissue is to........(?)........ as Flagship is to ......(?).......

Like I said, personally, Flagship does have brand equity to American just from me following the industry since the 80's, but Delta's use borders legality. Not to say they should augment the use of it.

The US patent and trademark Office considers Kleenex = Flagship from a legal perspective. Your 80s look at the industry is mirrored by law and trademarks. Not sure the rest of the discussion matters beyond that.

Edit: I’m not a lawyer. That may not be true. But both have trademarks as brands
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:24 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
I agree that The Kleenex example is a broad clear-cut exaggeration/example of this case that most would find easily agreeable as a violation but it is very specific and topical. Kleenex is not a company. Kimberly-Clark is. Kleenex is the brand name of one of the several products they offer under that name. Flagship is also the Brand for several products that American sells.
Both are trademarked.

And no, I don’t think American is solely responsible for the current English usage of the term Flagship. But the word’s connotation as a premium offering in English is heavily influenced by American’s usage of it as such.
I’d struggle to think of any other marketing that has used Flagship in that way for decades, aviation or not.
Just like when you use “i” in front of any word, people now immediately think tech and Apple: iWatch, iPhone, etc. you can literally put “i” in front of any word and create the marketing connotation Apple wants: iCouch, iCar, Etc
Apple didn’t create the letter i. American didn’t invent the word Flagship, but both heavily marketed its usage in current English to create certain connotations, particularly in aviation for flagship, and both have trademarked those usages as a result.


Kimberly-Clark is to Kleenex as AAG is to American.

Kleenex is to Tissue as American is to Airline.

Tissue is to........(?)........ as Flagship is to ......(?).......

Like I said, personally, Flagship does have brand equity to American just from me following the industry since the 80's, but Delta's use borders legality. Not to say they should augment the use of it.

The US patent and trademark Office considers Kleenex = Flagship from a legal perspective. Your 80s look at the industry is mirrored by law and trademarks. Not sure the rest of the discussion matters beyond that.



True, I can see that my 80s perspective was supported by perhaps the respecting of those trademarks by others. And my analogies ended a bit off as well. But legally, isn't Delta only labeling certain things it's "flagship" and not the entire group of those things, which can argueably just be interpreted as being used in the definition context? Don't they have the right?
 
kq747
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:27 pm

I think AA has every right to bring this case and companies should protect their marks. That being said, I think the likelihood of confusion even among non-avgeeks is quite small. Most people are not googling "flagship first" when searching for flights they search "Delta" or American;" nor are they asking "where is the flagship lounge?" while at JFK and being directed to the DL terminal.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:31 pm

The lawsuit may well be about more than the A350 usage. AA may think it also applies to their more universal and widespread use of the term 'Flagship' in their descriptions of AA lounges, premium services, and interiors. The problem with artificially inflating the perceived scope of infringement is that in reality, the scope of DELTA's use of 'FLAGSHIP' labels is very specific and narrowly focused. So far, the only place that I can find DELTA using the 'FLAGSHIP' label is in their marketing of the A350 and on flights operated using A350 aircraft. DELTA is not actually using 'FLAGSHIP' in their marketing of lounges, premium services, or interiors.

The first word in the title of this article pretty much says it all:

Silly: American Suing Delta For Using The Word “Flagship”
https://onemileatatime.com/american-sui ... -flagship/
Last edited by DL747400 on Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:34 pm

[/quote]
The US patent and trademark Office considers Kleenex = Flagship from a legal perspective. Your 80s look at the industry is mirrored by law and trademarks. Not sure the rest of the discussion matters beyond that.

Edit: I’m not a lawyer. That may not be true. But both have trademarks as brands[/quote]

Kleenex is a powerful brand by way of stellar marketing and public acceptance as the go-to reference. Kind of like Hallmark.

Flagship I argue does not have that public identifier to the masses like the above brands, especially when we are actually talking about a sub-brand of American itself.

Note: I am not a lawyer, either.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:46 pm

TYWoolman wrote:

The US patent and trademark Office considers Kleenex = Flagship from a legal perspective. Your 80s look at the industry is mirrored by law and trademarks. Not sure the rest of the discussion matters beyond that.

Edit: I’m not a lawyer. That may not be true. But both have trademarks as brands[/quote]

Kleenex is a powerful brand by way of stellar marketing and public acceptance as the go-to reference. Kind of like Hallmark.

Flagship I argue does not have that public identifier to the masses like the above brands, especially when we are actually talking about a sub-brand of American itself.

Note: I am not a lawyer, either.[/quote]”


No disagreement. Kleenex has a much broader independent brand equity, to me, than Flagship does. Using each in casual conversation, everyone would know what Kleenex was despite the conversation topic, I doubt very few would have the same reaction to the word flagship brought up in casual conversation.
In a conversation about aviation and marketing of the US3... anyone nerdy enough, like us, to have that kind of conversation, would probably know who flagship pertains to from a branding standpoint.
 
VS11
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:50 pm

Flagship® is a registered trademark of AA, which Delta is using to sell tickets on their website as shown in reply 30 by washingtonflyer. What else is there to debate?
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:00 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

The US patent and trademark Office considers Kleenex = Flagship from a legal perspective. Your 80s look at the industry is mirrored by law and trademarks. Not sure the rest of the discussion matters beyond that.

Edit: I’m not a lawyer. That may not be true. But both have trademarks as brands


Kleenex is a powerful brand by way of stellar marketing and public acceptance as the go-to reference. Kind of like Hallmark.

Flagship I argue does not have that public identifier to the masses like the above brands, especially when we are actually talking about a sub-brand of American itself.

Note: I am not a lawyer, either.[/quote]”


No disagreement. Kleenex has a much broader independent brand equity, to me, than Flagship does. Using each in casual conversation, everyone would know what Kleenex was despite the conversation topic, I doubt very few would have the same reaction to the word flagship brought up in casual conversation.
In a conversation about aviation and marketing of the US3... anyone nerdy enough, like us, to have that kind of conversation, would probably know who flagship pertains to from a branding standpoint.[/quote]

Agreed. It screams American to me as an airline nerd. But at the same time I have to say that Delta's contextual usage of flagship, in reference to only specific things and not groups of things, is why I think Delta has a strong case. But so does American if it argues that the digital age somehow provides more opportunity for branding ambiguity.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:15 pm

Maybe I am thinking about this too much, but here's an idea: can American be so demented as to attempt to tarnish Delta's image by pointing out that Delta is referencing what American feels is indicative of their own relative mediocrity?
 
ozark1
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:16 pm

I didnt read the other posts, but Flagship is an AA brand name period. You would think DL could come up with something original. I don’t like the term “lawsuit” and it’s a joke for something like this. I don’t care for AA but the term Flagship is THEIRS
 
ozark1
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:21 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Maybe I am thinking about this too much, but here's an idea: can American be so demented as to attempt to tarnish Delta's image by pointing out that Delta is referencing what American feels is indicative of their own relative mediocrity?

Yes I would say demented fits. I just flew WN and the flight attendants were not as nice as AAs. Yeah Parker needs to go and there are problems out the yazoo but your theory is ludicrous. Operationally is where the problem is and I truly think Parker has to go in order to get the house cleaned.
 
dstblj52
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:27 pm

ozark1 wrote:
I didnt read the other posts, but Flagship is an AA brand name period. You would think DL could come up with something original. I don’t like the term “lawsuit” and it’s a joke for something like this. I don’t care for AA but the term Flagship is THEIRS

Both American and Eastern used flagship to describe their DC-3 in the 1930's so it's a term that has been used in the industry by many companies and in fact, goes back even further through the use of flagship on passenger ships crossing the Atlantic before that.
 
DC10LAXJFK
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:35 pm

The title of the article saying it's "silly" is itself silly. Companies protect their brands and their registered trademarks. If they don't they're at risk of losing them. This is true, whether anyone believes in the quality level of the Flagship(R) service, but American paid for it and legally it's theirs in the context of passenger aviation and the premium services it is used for. The way you protect your trademarks, if negotiations and cease/decist letters haven't worked, is to file a lawsuit. It's quite likely that American's attorneys have been communicating regularly with Delta's attorneys and they've been unsuccessful reaching resolution, which is why the lawsuit was filed.

The other benefit of litigation, assuming Delta prevails, is that the case will put a limit on how Delta can use the term flagship. If their argument is that it's only for A350 planes, then that would be the case. If Delta, though, wants to expand and beginning referring to the Flagship flights as any flight having a "suite", or that has a special service on these Flagship planes, then Delta will arguably have crossed the line and be prohibited from any marketing to that effect. There is a high likelihood of the slippery slope where Delta would slowly expand the use of the term "flagship", hence another reason American needs to sue to prevent that. This is the potential "confusion" using a protected term/trademark in the same industry and referring to similar product offerings.
 
rbavfan
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:35 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
I'll give you a perfect example of a common use trademark word that has sparked major battles: Prime.


or App Store
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:16 pm

This whole debate reminds me of this one from a few years back, when DELTA started promoting themselves as being 'The On Time Machine' in their advertising:

Image

Image

Image
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TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:17 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
The real Reverse Equivalent Would be American doing mailer after mailer and marketing Sky and Miles over and over again.
The Sky and Miles aren’t terms unique to delta, but they are unique when applied to mileage programs in the aviation industry.

Not that American would ever do that, why devalue the AAdvantage brand that badly


The only difference here is that the word "flagship" does have a relevant meaning in English other than being a branded noun by American. The word Sky does not have comparable alternate use attributes. Using Sky in branding other than Delta would more readily trigger infringement, unless used like BestInSky Lounge Club when describing the best club experience of the many lounges an airline offers, and where Sky can be interpreted as free-use where "Sky" is indicative of where any airline does fly through/in/within/under. IMHO.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:28 pm

DL747400 wrote:
This whole debate reminds me of this one from a few years back, when DELTA started promoting themselves as being 'The On Time Machine' in their advertising:

Image

Image

Image


Definately. I remember when DOT started the on-time lists and when there were full-page American Airlines ads depicting the like in WSJs with images of their DC-10s. Very powerfully corporate.
Last edited by TYWoolman on Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:31 pm

Everyone saying this suit is silly need to maybe listen to a lawyer. It’s a rather serious suit.
smokeybandit wrote:
Not a single person is going to see Delta using "flagship" and confuse it with American's offerings.

That’s simply not what trademark law says.

Delta knows what it’s doing and they know it’s wrong. But it’s strategically wrong.

They are using a word (amongst millions of words) to dilute AA’s use of the word, that they have held as a federally registered trademark for 80 years. DL has invited this lawsuit, and they should expect to get hit hard.

TYWoolman wrote:
The only difference here is that the word "flagship" does have a relevant meaning in English other than being a branded noun by American.
In trademark law, it doesn’t generally matter that “flagship” is a regular English word. You cannot use it to describe air travel services in the United States because AA has a trademark. It’s really quite simple. DL needs to pick a different word.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:37 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
The real Reverse Equivalent Would be American doing mailer after mailer and marketing Sky and Miles over and over again.
The Sky and Miles aren’t terms unique to delta, but they are unique when applied to mileage programs in the aviation industry.

Not that American would ever do that, why devalue the AAdvantage brand that badly


The only difference here is that the word "flagship" does have a relevant meaning in English other than being a branded noun by American. The word Sky does not have co

mparable alternate use attributes. Using Sky in branding other than Delta would more readily trigger infringement, unless used like BestInSky Lounge Club when describing the best club experience of the many lounges an airline offers, and where Sky can be interpreted as free-use where "Sky" is indicative of where any airline does fly through/in/within/under. IMHO.


You're absolutely right that flagship has a relevant meaning. However, we're discussing the usage of a trademarked word or phrase in a particular industry - commercial aviation in the United States. And, interestingly, another entity that is involved in the -same- industry and in the -same- country has sought to use that -same- word or phrase to their benefit.

Prime Freight International has sued Amazon Prime over the use of the word "prime" on the side of Amazon's delivery trucks. That case was filed in July and, interestingly, Amazon did not file a single 12(b) motion and has not filed for summary judgment. They're off into the discovery phase which tells me this one has legs.

Here are the relevant portions of AA's complaint:

2. American has been using a series of federally registered “Flagship” trademarks—
which today include the marks “Flagship,” “Flagship Lounge” and “Flagship Suite” (the
“Flagship Marks”)—to describe premium air travel services for first and business class
passengers since the 1930s and 1940s.
3. Delta is well aware of American’s Flagship Marks. Yet, despite knowing that
American owns the exclusive right to use the Flagship Marks, Delta has begun to use the terms
“flagship,” “Flagship,” and “FLAGSHIP” to promote its own airport lounges and premium
services and interiors, including its One Suite first class seating and its Premium Select seating.
Delta’s use of these terms is confusingly similar to American’s well-established Flagship Marks
on its face.
4. This confusion is only amplified because Delta is using these terms to promote its
own premium air travel services—which just so happen to be the very same services in which
American has used its Flagship Marks for decades. This is no coincidence. Upon information
and belief, Delta is using “flagship,” “Flagship,” and “FLAGSHIP” as marks of its own with the
expectation of generating confusion in the marketplace. Delta’s use of these confusing marks is
causing irreparable harm to the well-established goodwill and reputation of American and its
trademarks.
5. As a result, American has been forced to protect its interests and investment in its
valuable Flagship Marks by seeking relief in this Court.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:40 pm

D L X wrote:
Everyone saying this suit is silly need to maybe listen to a lawyer. It’s a rather serious suit.
smokeybandit wrote:
Not a single person is going to see Delta using "flagship" and confuse it with American's offerings.

That’s simply not what trademark law says.

Delta knows what it’s doing and they know it’s wrong. But it’s strategically wrong.

They are using a word (amongst millions of words) to dilute AA’s use of the word, that they have held as a federally registered trademark for 80 years. DL has invited this lawsuit, and they should expect to get hit hard.

TYWoolman wrote:
The only difference here is that the word "flagship" does have a relevant meaning in English other than being a branded noun by American.
In trademark law, it doesn’t generally matter that “flagship” is a regular English word. You cannot use it to describe air travel services in the United States because AA has a trademark. It’s really quite simple. DL needs to pick a different word.


Interesting. I was referring that Delta has a generally good defense since the word does have alternate meaning and used within Delta context only Delta customer's would be privy of. American's argument needs to incorporate the pervasiveness of digital platforms, don't you think?
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:41 pm

Personally when I saw the press release with “Flagship” a while back I thought it was just plain weird.

Obviously one airline marketing department wasn’t quite sure which airline they were working for that particular day when they came up with that scheme.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:53 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
D L X wrote:
Everyone saying this suit is silly need to maybe listen to a lawyer. It’s a rather serious suit.
smokeybandit wrote:
Not a single person is going to see Delta using "flagship" and confuse it with American's offerings.

That’s simply not what trademark law says.

Delta knows what it’s doing and they know it’s wrong. But it’s strategically wrong.

They are using a word (amongst millions of words) to dilute AA’s use of the word, that they have held as a federally registered trademark for 80 years. DL has invited this lawsuit, and they should expect to get hit hard.

TYWoolman wrote:
The only difference here is that the word "flagship" does have a relevant meaning in English other than being a branded noun by American.
In trademark law, it doesn’t generally matter that “flagship” is a regular English word. You cannot use it to describe air travel services in the United States because AA has a trademark. It’s really quite simple. DL needs to pick a different word.


Interesting. I was referring that Delta has a generally good defense since the word does have alternate meaning and used within Delta context only Delta customer's would be privy of. American's argument needs to incorporate the pervasiveness of digital platforms, don't you think?

No. AA’s argument is very simple:

1) we have a trademark for the word “Flagship” as used in connection with air travel services

2) Delta is using “flagship” in connection with air travel services.

Delta will have to bring out some esoteric argument in defense. That the word has an alternate meaning is not one of them. (Further, there’s no such thing as “only Delta’s customers.” Every single person that flies Delta is a customer American is trying to court. There is no legal distinction.)
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:00 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
It seems to me that flagship is a weak trademark and those has a higher standard to prove confusion, it does not appear to me that flagship has acquired a strong secondary meaning among consumer of premium travel, its not arbitrary in that it describes the product (McChicken is a fairly clear example of an arbitrary and fanciful trademark, but it only applies if you use the Mc otherwise your free to use chicken, it's not suggestive although Flagship First would as that is combination extensively used by and associated with American airlines). It seems to me that unless American can show documented confusion of people buying a delta ticket with the description flagship and expecting to be buying an American airlines ticket or polling among consumers of premium travel that a significant percentage associate flagship with American not with important routes or new aircraft, then their mostly going to lose this case, but this kind of litigation tends to be necessary as its better to have a court rule that American is trying to defend its trademark to broadly, instead of not defending it at all.
I provided someone else better explanation of a weak mark below
"A mark is "weak" if it is descriptive and has not acquired sufficient secondary meaning. A mark is "strong" when it has acquired secondary meaning, or if it is arbitrary, fanciful or suggestive. The owner of a weak mark will have difficulty proving likelihood of confusion. For example, the mark, Maid in America for cleaning services was determined to be descriptive. The owner was unable to demonstrate a sufficient showing of advertising or sales to prove secondary meaning. Therefore, the trademark owner did not prevail in a claim of infringement against a similar mark. If descriptiveness is an issue in an infringement action, a survey may be conducted to prove secondary meaning."
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... nging.html
I am not associated with or in any way involved in this cite and provided a link to avoid a plagiarism claim

Your legal analysis is wholly misplaced. because the mark is federally registered, and has been so for 80 years. Secondary meaning was proven 80 years ago.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 607
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:06 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
The real Reverse Equivalent Would be American doing mailer after mailer and marketing Sky and Miles over and over again.
The Sky and Miles aren’t terms unique to delta, but they are unique when applied to mileage programs in the aviation industry.

Not that American would ever do that, why devalue the AAdvantage brand that badly


The only difference here is that the word "flagship" does have a relevant meaning in English other than being a branded noun by American. The word Sky does not have co

mparable alternate use attributes. Using Sky in branding other than Delta would more readily trigger infringement, unless used like BestInSky Lounge Club when describing the best club experience of the many lounges an airline offers, and where Sky can be interpreted as free-use where "Sky" is indicative of where any airline does fly through/in/within/under. IMHO.


You're absolutely right that flagship has a relevant meaning. However, we're discussing the usage of a trademarked word or phrase in a particular industry - commercial aviation in the United States. And, interestingly, another entity that is involved in the -same- industry and in the -same- country has sought to use that -same- word or phrase to their benefit.

Prime Freight International has sued Amazon Prime over the use of the word "prime" on the side of Amazon's delivery trucks. That case was filed in July and, interestingly, Amazon did not file a single 12(b) motion and has not filed for summary judgment. They're off into the discovery phase which tells me this one has legs.

Here are the relevant portions of AA's complaint:

2. American has been using a series of federally registered “Flagship” trademarks—
which today include the marks “Flagship,” “Flagship Lounge” and “Flagship Suite” (the
“Flagship Marks”)—to describe premium air travel services for first and business class
passengers since the 1930s and 1940s.
3. Delta is well aware of American’s Flagship Marks. Yet, despite knowing that
American owns the exclusive right to use the Flagship Marks, Delta has begun to use the terms
“flagship,” “Flagship,” and “FLAGSHIP” to promote its own airport lounges and premium
services and interiors, including its One Suite first class seating and its Premium Select seating.
Delta’s use of these terms is confusingly similar to American’s well-established Flagship Marks
on its face.
4. This confusion is only amplified because Delta is using these terms to promote its
own premium air travel services—which just so happen to be the very same services in which
American has used its Flagship Marks for decades. This is no coincidence. Upon information
and belief, Delta is using “flagship,” “Flagship,” and “FLAGSHIP” as marks of its own with the
expectation of generating confusion in the marketplace. Delta’s use of these confusing marks is
causing irreparable harm to the well-established goodwill and reputation of American and its
trademarks.
5. As a result, American has been forced to protect its interests and investment in its
valuable Flagship Marks by seeking relief in this Court.



Thanks for that breakdown. American has a strong case, indeed. Personally, I am in support of American here if indeed Delta's use in fact is in violation, especially if deliberate . But I also think Delta is not stupid enough not to legally think this one through prior to use. Fascinating!
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:12 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

The only difference here is that the word "flagship" does have a relevant meaning in English other than being a branded noun by American. The word Sky does not have co

mparable alternate use attributes. Using Sky in branding other than Delta would more readily trigger infringement, unless used like BestInSky Lounge Club when describing the best club experience of the many lounges an airline offers, and where Sky can be interpreted as free-use where "Sky" is indicative of where any airline does fly through/in/within/under. IMHO.


You're absolutely right that flagship has a relevant meaning. However, we're discussing the usage of a trademarked word or phrase in a particular industry - commercial aviation in the United States. And, interestingly, another entity that is involved in the -same- industry and in the -same- country has sought to use that -same- word or phrase to their benefit.

Prime Freight International has sued Amazon Prime over the use of the word "prime" on the side of Amazon's delivery trucks. That case was filed in July and, interestingly, Amazon did not file a single 12(b) motion and has not filed for summary judgment. They're off into the discovery phase which tells me this one has legs.

Here are the relevant portions of AA's complaint:

2. American has been using a series of federally registered “Flagship” trademarks—
which today include the marks “Flagship,” “Flagship Lounge” and “Flagship Suite” (the
“Flagship Marks”)—to describe premium air travel services for first and business class
passengers since the 1930s and 1940s.
3. Delta is well aware of American’s Flagship Marks. Yet, despite knowing that
American owns the exclusive right to use the Flagship Marks, Delta has begun to use the terms
“flagship,” “Flagship,” and “FLAGSHIP” to promote its own airport lounges and premium
services and interiors, including its One Suite first class seating and its Premium Select seating.
Delta’s use of these terms is confusingly similar to American’s well-established Flagship Marks
on its face.
4. This confusion is only amplified because Delta is using these terms to promote its
own premium air travel services—which just so happen to be the very same services in which
American has used its Flagship Marks for decades. This is no coincidence. Upon information
and belief, Delta is using “flagship,” “Flagship,” and “FLAGSHIP” as marks of its own with the
expectation of generating confusion in the marketplace. Delta’s use of these confusing marks is
causing irreparable harm to the well-established goodwill and reputation of American and its
trademarks.
5. As a result, American has been forced to protect its interests and investment in its
valuable Flagship Marks by seeking relief in this Court.



Thanks for that breakdown. American has a strong case, indeed. Personally, I am in support of American here if indeed Delta's use in fact is in violation, especially if deliberate . But I also think Delta is not stupid enough not to legally think this one through prior to use. Fascinating!

I don’t have a dog in the fight, but i think delta’s use was deliberate. They were trying to diminish AA’s brand, and prey on the fact that most Americans don’t understand this law. They can look like the underdogs even though they are the aggressors.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:33 pm

D L X wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:

You're absolutely right that flagship has a relevant meaning. However, we're discussing the usage of a trademarked word or phrase in a particular industry - commercial aviation in the United States. And, interestingly, another entity that is involved in the -same- industry and in the -same- country has sought to use that -same- word or phrase to their benefit.

Prime Freight International has sued Amazon Prime over the use of the word "prime" on the side of Amazon's delivery trucks. That case was filed in July and, interestingly, Amazon did not file a single 12(b) motion and has not filed for summary judgment. They're off into the discovery phase which tells me this one has legs.

Here are the relevant portions of AA's complaint:

2. American has been using a series of federally registered “Flagship” trademarks—
which today include the marks “Flagship,” “Flagship Lounge” and “Flagship Suite” (the
“Flagship Marks”)—to describe premium air travel services for first and business class
passengers since the 1930s and 1940s.
3. Delta is well aware of American’s Flagship Marks. Yet, despite knowing that
American owns the exclusive right to use the Flagship Marks, Delta has begun to use the terms
“flagship,” “Flagship,” and “FLAGSHIP” to promote its own airport lounges and premium
services and interiors, including its One Suite first class seating and its Premium Select seating.
Delta’s use of these terms is confusingly similar to American’s well-established Flagship Marks
on its face.
4. This confusion is only amplified because Delta is using these terms to promote its
own premium air travel services—which just so happen to be the very same services in which
American has used its Flagship Marks for decades. This is no coincidence. Upon information
and belief, Delta is using “flagship,” “Flagship,” and “FLAGSHIP” as marks of its own with the
expectation of generating confusion in the marketplace. Delta’s use of these confusing marks is
causing irreparable harm to the well-established goodwill and reputation of American and its
trademarks.
5. As a result, American has been forced to protect its interests and investment in its
valuable Flagship Marks by seeking relief in this Court.



Thanks for that breakdown. American has a strong case, indeed. Personally, I am in support of American here if indeed Delta's use in fact is in violation, especially if deliberate . But I also think Delta is not stupid enough not to legally think this one through prior to use. Fascinating!

I don’t have a dog in the fight, but i think delta’s use was deliberate. They were trying to diminish AA’s brand, and prey on the fact that most Americans don’t understand this law. They can look like the underdogs even though they are the aggressors.


You may be right. However, you can't blame any airline wanting to use the term. FLAGSHIP is a great term to use for any airline-context. If those rights are exclusive to American in any and all contexts and references, then so be it. These laws are awesome and must be respected! Maybe Delta can rekindle CrownRoom branding or CrownJet when depicting any context to such where they now use Flagship.

Or what about CrownFlagship?
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Oh boy...

This is REALLY problematic.

Image

It actually says “flagship” on its booking engine. Yes folks, that is deliberate.

TYWoolman wrote:
D L X wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:


Thanks for that breakdown. American has a strong case, indeed. Personally, I am in support of American here if indeed Delta's use in fact is in violation, especially if deliberate . But I also think Delta is not stupid enough not to legally think this one through prior to use. Fascinating!

I don’t have a dog in the fight, but i think delta’s use was deliberate. They were trying to diminish AA’s brand, and prey on the fact that most Americans don’t understand this law. They can look like the underdogs even though they are the aggressors.


You may be right. However, you can't blame any airline wanting to use the term. FLAGSHIP is a great term to use for any airline-context. If those rights are exclusive to American in any and all contexts and references, then so be it. These laws are awesome and must be respected! Maybe Delta can rekindle CrownRoom branding or CrownJet when depicting any context to such where they now use Flagship.

Or what about CrownFlagship?

CrownFlagship is still dilutive.

Again, a company the size of Delta has a large, well-resourced advertising department that is certainly aware of its competitors’ brands. This wasn’t a mistake, and calling it CrownFlagship would still be trying to play on AA’s 80-year continuous use of that word.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:50 pm

D L X wrote:
Oh boy...

This is REALLY problematic.

Image

It actually says “flagship” on its booking engine. Yes folks, that is deliberate.

TYWoolman wrote:
D L X wrote:
I don’t have a dog in the fight, but i think delta’s use was deliberate. They were trying to diminish AA’s brand, and prey on the fact that most Americans don’t understand this law. They can look like the underdogs even though they are the aggressors.


You may be right. However, you can't blame any airline wanting to use the term. FLAGSHIP is a great term to use for any airline-context. If those rights are exclusive to American in any and all contexts and references, then so be it. These laws are awesome and must be respected! Maybe Delta can rekindle CrownRoom branding or CrownJet when depicting any context to such where they now use Flagship.

Or what about CrownFlagship?

CrownFlagship is still dilutive.

Again, a company the size of Delta has a large, well-resourced advertising department that is certainly aware of its competitors’ brands. This wasn’t a mistake, and calling it CrownFlagship would still be trying to play on AA’s 80-year continuous use of that word.


Is Delta referencing A-350 service here?
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:52 pm

D L X wrote:
Oh boy...

This is REALLY problematic.

Image

It actually says “flagship” on its booking engine. Yes folks, that is deliberate.

TYWoolman wrote:
D L X wrote:
I don’t have a dog in the fight, but i think delta’s use was deliberate. They were trying to diminish AA’s brand, and prey on the fact that most Americans don’t understand this law. They can look like the underdogs even though they are the aggressors.


You may be right. However, you can't blame any airline wanting to use the term. FLAGSHIP is a great term to use for any airline-context. If those rights are exclusive to American in any and all contexts and references, then so be it. These laws are awesome and must be respected! Maybe Delta can rekindle CrownRoom branding or CrownJet when depicting any context to such where they now use Flagship.

Or what about CrownFlagship?

CrownFlagship is still dilutive.

Again, a company the size of Delta has a large, well-resourced advertising department that is certainly aware of its competitors’ brands. This wasn’t a mistake, and calling it CrownFlagship would still be trying to play on AA’s 80-year continuous use of that word.


Then CROWNSHIP would suffice.
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:23 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
D L X wrote:
Oh boy...

This is REALLY problematic.

Image

It actually says “flagship” on its booking engine. Yes folks, that is deliberate.

TYWoolman wrote:

You may be right. However, you can't blame any airline wanting to use the term. FLAGSHIP is a great term to use for any airline-context. If those rights are exclusive to American in any and all contexts and references, then so be it. These laws are awesome and must be respected! Maybe Delta can rekindle CrownRoom branding or CrownJet when depicting any context to such where they now use Flagship.

Or what about CrownFlagship?

CrownFlagship is still dilutive.

Again, a company the size of Delta has a large, well-resourced advertising department that is certainly aware of its competitors’ brands. This wasn’t a mistake, and calling it CrownFlagship would still be trying to play on AA’s 80-year continuous use of that word.


Is Delta referencing A-350 service here?

Yes.

TYWoolman wrote:
Then CROWNSHIP would suffice.


Yes, without a doubt. That would be a million times better, legally speaking.

But there’s a reason they chose Flagship instead. Because it’s AA’s brand, and they’re trying to hurt AA.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1372
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:27 pm

tallen261 wrote:
I don’t pretend to know as much as an attorney or some of you pilots, but I used to work for AA. Even before that, as a child I remember AA using the term “flagship” in their advertising and on the sides of their planes (i.e., DC-10s were labeled Flagship XXX on the nose). When I was hired in reservations at AA we always identified the DC-10 flights as “flagship.” AA’s use of the word goes back decades (to the propeller era) and I’d be very surprised if they have not taken every legal step possible to protect it as a trademark or copyright, whichever is appropriate.

Kle
AA's use of the word "Flagship" has been around for nearly the entire history of the airline. Back in the day, they called their DC3's "Flagships", and their DC6's, DC7's, and Lockheed L188 Electra's were Flagships as well. This is true brand name, just like Chevrolet Impala, Volkswagen Jetta, or Kleenex tissues. AA will win this one.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3962
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:46 pm

AA’s product does a perfectly fine job of diminishing their own brand without Delta’s help.

That being said, I can see where AA is coming from. It’s weird that Delta wouldn’t use something not associated with a competitor. Will they call their next new aircraft Friend Ship?
Last edited by OB1504 on Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
steex
Posts: 1438
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:07 pm

D L X wrote:
Oh boy...

This is REALLY problematic.

Image

It actually says “flagship” on its booking engine. Yes folks, that is deliberate.


I imagine a key point in DL's defense will be that one airplane (the A350) is indicated with the word "FLAGSHIP" on the website regardless of booking class or product, and they similarly label itineraries that have an A220 or A330NEO with "NEW AIRCRAFT" or a retrofitted 777 with "NEW INTERIOR." Seems like their lawyers could argue that red tabs in the booking window simply provide additional information about different types of aircraft, and that the A350 is Delta's lowercase-F "flagship" aircraft - it just so happens they use all caps in their text.

I'm not passing judgment on whether that defense holds water either way (and I most certainly am not an attorney), but seems a likely approach.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19107
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:19 pm

Google "flagship" and any major airline and see what results you get. :wink2:

https://thepointsguy.co.uk/news/qantas- ... se-routes/
Qantas eyes ‘flagship’ cabin update for proposed Project Sunrise routes


https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 80-to-doha
Emirates to Fly Flagship A380 to Doha


https://upgradedpoints.com/united-polar ... mate-guide
Since then, United has had repeated delays in expanding their new flagship product.


https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/press ... -time.html
Lufthansa’s Airbus A350-900 flagship aircraft flies to Charlotte Douglas International Airport for the first time


https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_GB/ ... fleet.html
Boeing 777 - This is the flagship of Cathay Pacific's long-haul fleet
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
steex
Posts: 1438
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:24 pm

scbriml wrote:
Google "flagship" and any major airline and see what results you get. :wink2:

https://thepointsguy.co.uk/news/qantas- ... se-routes/
Qantas eyes ‘flagship’ cabin update for proposed Project Sunrise routes


https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 80-to-doha
Emirates to Fly Flagship A380 to Doha


https://upgradedpoints.com/united-polar ... mate-guide
Since then, United has had repeated delays in expanding their new flagship product.


https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/press ... -time.html
Lufthansa’s Airbus A350-900 flagship aircraft flies to Charlotte Douglas International Airport for the first time


https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_GB/ ... fleet.html
Boeing 777 - This is the flagship of Cathay Pacific's long-haul fleet


This will, I would assume, be another potential argument used by Delta's side - the term is so commonly used by both other airlines and journalists describing airlines' products that it no longer is sufficiently distinctive to warrant a copyright.

There are certainly valid arguments for American to make against all of these defenses. It will be interesting to see this play out.
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
Google "flagship" and any major airline and see what results you get. :wink2:

https://thepointsguy.co.uk/news/qantas- ... se-routes/
Qantas eyes ‘flagship’ cabin update for proposed Project Sunrise routes


https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 80-to-doha
Emirates to Fly Flagship A380 to Doha


https://upgradedpoints.com/united-polar ... mate-guide
Since then, United has had repeated delays in expanding their new flagship product.


https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/press ... -time.html
Lufthansa’s Airbus A350-900 flagship aircraft flies to Charlotte Douglas International Airport for the first time


https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_GB/ ... fleet.html
Boeing 777 - This is the flagship of Cathay Pacific's long-haul fleet


If only that were how law worked.
steex wrote:
D L X wrote:
Oh boy...

This is REALLY problematic.

Image

It actually says “flagship” on its booking engine. Yes folks, that is deliberate.


I imagine a key point in DL's defense will be that one airplane (the A350) is indicated with the word "FLAGSHIP" on the website regardless of booking class or product, and they similarly label itineraries that have an A220 or A330NEO with "NEW AIRCRAFT" or a retrofitted 777 with "NEW INTERIOR." Seems like their lawyers could argue that red tabs in the booking window simply provide additional information about different types of aircraft, and that the A350 is Delta's lowercase-F "flagship" aircraft - it just so happens they use all caps in their text.

I'm not passing judgment on whether that defense holds water either way (and I most certainly am not an attorney), but seems a likely approach.

It is not a defense. Delta isn’t using the word to describe their plane. They are systematically using the word to sell air travel services connected to a particular product. That’s trademark infringement.
Last edited by D L X on Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:25 pm

reltney wrote:
Will American Airlines sue the US navy? They have been using the term “flagship” since.......well, since they had ships....


You cannot equate the US Navy with Delta - the US Navy does not provide commercial aviation transportation services. Delta does. That is a huge difference.

The level of partisan posting in this topic top is utterly breathtaking.
Last edited by vhtje on Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19107
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:26 pm

D L X wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Google "flagship" and any major airline and see what results you get. :wink2:

https://thepointsguy.co.uk/news/qantas- ... se-routes/
Qantas eyes ‘flagship’ cabin update for proposed Project Sunrise routes


https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 80-to-doha
Emirates to Fly Flagship A380 to Doha


https://upgradedpoints.com/united-polar ... mate-guide
Since then, United has had repeated delays in expanding their new flagship product.


https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/press ... -time.html
Lufthansa’s Airbus A350-900 flagship aircraft flies to Charlotte Douglas International Airport for the first time


https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_GB/ ... fleet.html
Boeing 777 - This is the flagship of Cathay Pacific's long-haul fleet


If only that were how law worked.


So why isn't AA suing all those other airlines that have flagship products? :sarcastic:
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