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JAMBOJET
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:16 am

Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.
 
Delta717
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:29 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.


Quick dummy booking shows A359 routes advertised as “Flagship A350,” so while it seems like DL added further clarification, the word “Flagship” is still present.
 
Prost
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:03 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.


The industry found something else to grab their attention.
 
Boston757
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:17 pm

I wonder why in the world Delta would want anything in name ect to do with Americans. They have such distain got AAL and it’s employees.
 
VS11
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:28 pm

Boston757 wrote:
I wonder why in the world Delta would want anything in name ect to do with Americans. They have such distain got AAL and it’s employees.


Because DL likes to copy others a lot...not the first time...Song anyone?
 
alfa164
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:42 pm

VS11 wrote:
Boston757 wrote:
I wonder why in the world Delta would want anything in name ect to do with Americans. They have such distain got AAL and it’s employees.

Because DL likes to copy others a lot...not the first time...Song anyone?


Yeah... I guess somewhere there must be some "Melody Airlines" complaining about that...
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:57 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.

If Delta is still using it, it means AA failed in an attempt to get an injunction, and has not prevailed in court. Maybe it hasn't yet proceeded to trial; maybe AA withdrew its complaint.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:03 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.



Most likely Delta using "Flagship" modifying aircraft type "A350" and not an implied "international service" greatly weakens American's case.
 
StTim
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.

If Delta is still using it, it means AA failed in an attempt to get an injunction, and has not prevailed in court. Maybe it hasn't yet proceeded to trial; maybe AA withdrew its complaint.


I know American law is different but I am sure under English law you cannot trademark etc a word in common usage.
 
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scbriml
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:35 pm

VS11 wrote:
Boston757 wrote:
I wonder why in the world Delta would want anything in name ect to do with Americans. They have such distain got AAL and it’s employees.


Because DL likes to copy others a lot...not the first time...Song anyone?


What, by using a word for its intended meaning?
 
VS11
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:44 pm

scbriml wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Boston757 wrote:
I wonder why in the world Delta would want anything in name ect to do with Americans. They have such distain got AAL and it’s employees.


Because DL likes to copy others a lot...not the first time...Song anyone?


What, by using a word for its intended meaning?


No. The entire concept for Song was just copying jetBlue at the time.
 
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scbriml
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:57 pm

VS11 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
VS11 wrote:

Because DL likes to copy others a lot...not the first time...Song anyone?


What, by using a word for its intended meaning?


No. The entire concept for Song was just copying jetBlue at the time.


I’m not talking about song. You said DL likes to copy others and the thread is about DL’s use of the term ‘flagship’.
 
BoardMember
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:59 pm

Boston757 wrote:
I wonder why in the world Delta would want anything in name ect to do with Americans. They have such distain got AAL and it’s employees.

Because the average passenger could care less.
 
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sjones1975
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:18 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.


Litigation takes a long time to resolve, unless the parties settle the case out of court. I just checked the docket for the case; it's still ongoing. In a scheduling order from April 2020, the judge set the date for parties to file dispositive motions (where they ask the judge to rule in their favor without a trial) as November 16, 2020. The judge set a mediation date of September 3, 2020 (can the parties come to an agreement themselves over the use of “Flagship”??), and a trial date (should a trial be needed) of February 8, 2021.

The latest filing in the case was on June 12, 2020, with AA’s high-power New York lawyers (from the firm of Latham & Watkins) applying for permission to participate in the litigation that is occurring in the Northern District of Texas federal court.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:38 pm

AA should have trademarked the term FlAAgship. Just like AAdvantage, TrAAins, etc.
 
VS11
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:10 pm

scbriml wrote:
VS11 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

What, by using a word for its intended meaning?


No. The entire concept for Song was just copying jetBlue at the time.


I’m not talking about song. You said DL likes to copy others and the thread is about DL’s use of the term ‘flagship’.


DL copies other airlines' products, strategies and trademarks in this case.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:49 pm

sjones1975 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.


Litigation takes a long time to resolve, unless the parties settle the case out of court. I just checked the docket for the case; it's still ongoing. In a scheduling order from April 2020, the judge set the date for parties to file dispositive motions (where they ask the judge to rule in their favor without a trial) as November 16, 2020. The judge set a mediation date of September 3, 2020 (can the parties come to an agreement themselves over the use of “Flagship”??), and a trial date (should a trial be needed) of February 8, 2021.

The latest filing in the case was on June 12, 2020, with AA’s high-power New York lawyers (from the firm of Latham & Watkins) applying for permission to participate in the litigation that is occurring in the Northern District of Texas federal court.

Interesting! Thanks for the update.
 
Flflyer83
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:47 pm

VS11 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
VS11 wrote:

Because DL likes to copy others a lot...not the first time...Song anyone?


What, by using a word for its intended meaning?


No. The entire concept for Song was just copying jetBlue at the time.


And JetBlue was copying WN. So.... probably not a good example.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:49 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.



Most likely Delta using "Flagship" modifying aircraft type "A350" and not an implied "international service" greatly weakens American's case.


Nice assumptions, but wrong. Litigation is proceeding, but like all litigation, the process has slowed down owing to COVID. Courts have been giving liberal extensions on things like discovery because its challenging to physically review documents and conduct meetings in person with this beastie running around. Trial is -currently- set for early next February (after being kicked back from November). There have been NO dispositive motions and NO motions to dismiss. Some aren't due until later this fall.

-------------->
AMENDED SCHEDULING ORDER: This case is set for trial on this Court's four-week docket beginning February 8, 2021. Counsel and the parties shall be ready for trial on two days' notice at any time during this four-week period. Joinder of Parties due by 7/10/2020. Amended Pleadings due by 7/10/2020. Motions due by 11/16/2020. Deadline for mediation is on or before 9/3/2020. Discovery due by 9/17/2020. Pretrial Order due by 1/12/2021. (Ordered by Judge Reed C. O'Connor on 4/24/2020) (pef) (Entered: 04/24/2020)
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:25 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Whatever happened with this lawsuit?
I assume Delta settled out of court or backed off but I have no idea.



Most likely Delta using "Flagship" modifying aircraft type "A350" and not an implied "international service" greatly weakens American's case.


Nice assumptions, but wrong. Litigation is proceeding, but like all litigation, the process has slowed down owing to COVID. Courts have been giving liberal extensions on things like discovery because its challenging to physically review documents and conduct meetings in person with this beastie running around. Trial is -currently- set for early next February (after being kicked back from November). There have been NO dispositive motions and NO motions to dismiss. Some aren't due until later this fall.

-------------->
AMENDED SCHEDULING ORDER: This case is set for trial on this Court's four-week docket beginning February 8, 2021. Counsel and the parties shall be ready for trial on two days' notice at any time during this four-week period. Joinder of Parties due by 7/10/2020. Amended Pleadings due by 7/10/2020. Motions due by 11/16/2020. Deadline for mediation is on or before 9/3/2020. Discovery due by 9/17/2020. Pretrial Order due by 1/12/2021. (Ordered by Judge Reed C. O'Connor on 4/24/2020) (pef) (Entered: 04/24/2020)


Thanks for that detailed response and hopefully you intend to directly reply to OP whose question your response will address. Nonetheless, IMO, American's case on an on-going attempt to ban Delta's use of the word is greaty diminished when Delta changed its use of Flagship to modify an aircraft type, especially when American doesn't fly the A350.
 
113312
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:52 pm

I took the callsign "FLAGSHIP" for Dolphin Airways back in 1981. It later was again applied to Express Airlines I as the ATC callsign. Over all of these years, American Airlines never challenged the use of their old trademark. It would seem a weak argument to complain now. Of course, if they would return to the markings and trademarks from prior to 1963 or so, I am sure many airline enthusiasts would be happy and a Judge might uphold their complaint.
 
cvsirls
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:30 pm

VS11 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
VS11 wrote:

No. The entire concept for Song was just copying jetBlue at the time.


I’m not talking about song. You said DL likes to copy others and the thread is about DL’s use of the term ‘flagship’.


DL copies other airlines' products, strategies and trademarks in this case.


Litterally has nothing to do with anything this thread is talking about.
To be fair, I think most can say that the other 2 US carrier airlines have been copying after delta a lot recently.
Either way...... WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!! It's called competition! Everybody in the whole industry copies off of each other!
 
VS11
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:42 pm

cvsirls wrote:
VS11 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

I’m not talking about song. You said DL likes to copy others and the thread is about DL’s use of the term ‘flagship’.


DL copies other airlines' products, strategies and trademarks in this case.


Litterally has nothing to do with anything this thread is talking about.
To be fair, I think most can say that the other 2 US carrier airlines have been copying after delta a lot recently.
Either way...... WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!! It's called competition! Everybody in the whole industry copies off of each other!


That’s why trademarks exist - to prevent others from copying. Incidentally, what this thread is about.
 
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sjones1975
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 am

American and Delta are still litigating this case, and it's getting nasty. They're currently engaged in a dispute over discovery, specifically over the scheduling of a deposition of a particular AA officer. Delta's court filing from today (Dec. 2) relating to the discovery dispute contains an interesting email in the appendix. In the email, an attorney for AA accuses DL of "misuse of the discovery process to obtain largely irrelevant commercial information, presumably for some ulterior purpose...Delta's real goal was to obtain competitively sensitive information about American's business strategies and marketing plans, while virtually ignoring the issues relevant to this dispute." The email can be seen here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nMuUPD ... sp=sharing
 
Virtual737
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:16 am

BoardMember wrote:
Boston757 wrote:
I wonder why in the world Delta would want anything in name ect to do with Americans. They have such distain got AAL and it’s employees.

Because the average passenger could care less.


If they could care less, their current level of care has yet to bottom out, so still some work to do.
 
JRL3289
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:29 am

Delta would have done better to terminate the creative agency and/or internal creative personnel associated with approving "flagship" used in marketing copy rather than dragging out absurd litigation over this.

It's the type of copy that most likely elicited quite a bit of discussion internally at Delta, and one which they knew would draw attention from American. American, for its part, had no choice other than to vigorously defend its trademark or risk losing the valuable brand it built around the term.
 
Lootess
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:58 am

JRL3289 wrote:
Delta would have done better to terminate the creative agency and/or internal creative personnel associated with approving "flagship" used in marketing copy rather than dragging out absurd litigation over this.

It's the type of copy that most likely elicited quite a bit of discussion internally at Delta, and one which they knew would draw attention from American. American, for its part, had no choice other than to vigorously defend its trademark or risk losing the valuable brand it built around the term.


AA doesn't own a single flagship A350, they have nothing to stand on.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:58 am

Lootess wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
Delta would have done better to terminate the creative agency and/or internal creative personnel associated with approving "flagship" used in marketing copy rather than dragging out absurd litigation over this.

It's the type of copy that most likely elicited quite a bit of discussion internally at Delta, and one which they knew would draw attention from American. American, for its part, had no choice other than to vigorously defend its trademark or risk losing the valuable brand it built around the term.


AA doesn't own a single flagship A350, they have nothing to stand on.


A lot of their jets carried the name “flagship” or “luxury liner” during the era of their bare metal livery.
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:48 am

Lootess wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
Delta would have done better to terminate the creative agency and/or internal creative personnel associated with approving "flagship" used in marketing copy rather than dragging out absurd litigation over this.

It's the type of copy that most likely elicited quite a bit of discussion internally at Delta, and one which they knew would draw attention from American. American, for its part, had no choice other than to vigorously defend its trademark or risk losing the valuable brand it built around the term.


AA doesn't own a single flagship A350, they have nothing to stand on.


A350 is not named as flagship, it is... Airbus A350XWB, plain and simple. Delta calls its A350 flagship as a marketing ploy has nothing to do with whether AA owns A350 or not. The focus of the suit is on whether Delta can use the word Flagship to showcase their best aircraft and service while AA had used it for decades. I remember when AA filed the suit, Delta used Flagship only without the specify as Flagship A350. It is well documented in this thread that AA VS DL is on the exclusive usage of the word Flagship, not Flagship A350.
 
Lootess
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:57 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Lootess wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
Delta would have done better to terminate the creative agency and/or internal creative personnel associated with approving "flagship" used in marketing copy rather than dragging out absurd litigation over this.

It's the type of copy that most likely elicited quite a bit of discussion internally at Delta, and one which they knew would draw attention from American. American, for its part, had no choice other than to vigorously defend its trademark or risk losing the valuable brand it built around the term.


AA doesn't own a single flagship A350, they have nothing to stand on.


A350 is not named as flagship, it is... Airbus A350XWB, plain and simple. Delta calls its A350 flagship as a marketing ploy has nothing to do with whether AA owns A350 or not. The focus of the suit is on whether Delta can use the word Flagship to showcase their best aircraft and service while AA had used it for decades. I remember when AA filed the suit, Delta used Flagship only without the specify as Flagship A350. It is well documented in this thread that AA VS DL is on the exclusive usage of the word Flagship, not Flagship A350.


No it's not.

No one calls it an A350 XWB, the XWB is just there to prove it's not the original failed model.

If I book ATL-ICN on Delta.com today it says flagship A350. Show me where it hurt.

AA doesn't have a flagship A350.

That's the case made, and that wasn't confusing to a customer at all.
 
codc10
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:04 pm

sjones1975 wrote:
American and Delta are still litigating this case, and it's getting nasty. They're currently engaged in a dispute over discovery, specifically over the scheduling of a deposition of a particular AA officer. Delta's court filing from today (Dec. 2) relating to the discovery dispute contains an interesting email in the appendix. In the email, an attorney for AA accuses DL of "misuse of the discovery process to obtain largely irrelevant commercial information, presumably for some ulterior purpose...Delta's real goal was to obtain competitively sensitive information about American's business strategies and marketing plans, while virtually ignoring the issues relevant to this dispute." The email can be seen here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nMuUPD ... sp=sharing


Posturing and puffery among attorneys engaged a discovery dispute, all while billing AA/DL $750+++/hr. I wouldn't accept much of that at face value.
 
wjcandee
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:07 pm

VS11 wrote:
That’s why trademarks exist - to prevent others from copying. Incidentally, what this thread is about.


Actually, the purpose of the laws is to prevent consumers from mistaking the source of a good or service as a result of being confused by the alleged-infringer's use of an identical or similar name, phrase, or trade dress.

Generally, these cases focus on the "likelihood of confusion" between the trademark-holder's mark and the mark which is claimed to infringe. The law is of course very-developed at this point as to what does or doesn't infringe, and the surrounding circumstances play a significant part.
 
lostsound
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:15 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

What, by using a word for its intended meaning?


No. The entire concept for Song was just copying jetBlue at the time.


And JetBlue was copying WN. So.... probably not a good example.


How? Lol the airlines have always been vastly different, especially hard product wise. WN does not have TVs, the extra legroom, or assigned seating. Not to mention B6 was a pricier ticket than WN even at the start.
 
wjcandee
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:20 pm

codc10 wrote:
sjones1975 wrote:
American and Delta are still litigating this case, and it's getting nasty. They're currently engaged in a dispute over discovery, specifically over the scheduling of a deposition of a particular AA officer. Delta's court filing from today (Dec. 2) relating to the discovery dispute contains an interesting email in the appendix. In the email, an attorney for AA accuses DL of "misuse of the discovery process to obtain largely irrelevant commercial information, presumably for some ulterior purpose...Delta's real goal was to obtain competitively sensitive information about American's business strategies and marketing plans, while virtually ignoring the issues relevant to this dispute." The email can be seen here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nMuUPD ... sp=sharing


Posturing and puffery among attorneys engaged a discovery dispute, all while billing AA/DL $750+++/hr. I wouldn't accept much of that at face value.


Yeah, we call that passage a "smokescreen". They don't want that executive to be deposed, possibly because he knows something, so they claim that DL has some malicious purpose. AA is the plaintiff, so it's a tough row to hoe to claim that DL, as the Defendant, had some weird ulterior motive for the lawsuit: they didn't bring the lawsuit, AA did. And by doing so, AA opened itself up to a lot of legitimate inquiry about -- to use the broad brush its lawyers did -- its business strategies and marketing plans.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:15 pm

I can understand Delta wanting to win this because it would dilute American's use of the "Flagship" branding and gives them use of a word that is ubiquitously known all over. But as an airline fan from the early 80's, Flagship in my mind is AA all the way. Frankly, I think Delta should come up with its own unique branding. Is Delta actually not recognizing American's trademark or is Delta's argument that its use of it does not fall into that trademark scope? What then keeps American from using Sky (insert a word) ?
 
D L X
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:08 am

TYWoolman wrote:
I can understand Delta wanting to win this because it would dilute American's use of the "Flagship" branding and gives them use of a word that is ubiquitously known all over. But as an airline fan from the early 80's, Flagship in my mind is AA all the way. Frankly, I think Delta should come up with its own unique branding. Is Delta actually not recognizing American's trademark or is Delta's argument that its use of it does not fall into that trademark scope? What then keeps American from using Sky (insert a word) ?

At this point, it seems like Peter measuring on DL’s part. They got caught infringing and diluting their largest competitor’s trademarks.

Just use a different word and save the money.
 
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zeke
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:16 am

sjones1975 wrote:
American and Delta are still litigating this case, and it's getting nasty. They're currently engaged in a dispute over discovery, specifically over the scheduling of a deposition of a particular AA officer. Delta's court filing from today (Dec. 2) relating to the discovery dispute contains an interesting email in the appendix. In the email, an attorney for AA accuses DL of "misuse of the discovery process to obtain largely irrelevant commercial information, presumably for some ulterior purpose...Delta's real goal was to obtain competitively sensitive information about American's business strategies and marketing plans, while virtually ignoring the issues relevant to this dispute." The email can be seen here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nMuUPD ... sp=sharing


The key in that email is that DL was asking about the relative attributes of DL and AA products and services, this is the crux of the case, will a consumer be confused over the competing offerings. It appears that AA does not want this aspect litigated, however they are the ones that brought the case on against DL, and it is a totally predictable course of enquiry.
 
D L X
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:12 am

zeke wrote:
sjones1975 wrote:
American and Delta are still litigating this case, and it's getting nasty. They're currently engaged in a dispute over discovery, specifically over the scheduling of a deposition of a particular AA officer. Delta's court filing from today (Dec. 2) relating to the discovery dispute contains an interesting email in the appendix. In the email, an attorney for AA accuses DL of "misuse of the discovery process to obtain largely irrelevant commercial information, presumably for some ulterior purpose...Delta's real goal was to obtain competitively sensitive information about American's business strategies and marketing plans, while virtually ignoring the issues relevant to this dispute." The email can be seen here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nMuUPD ... sp=sharing


The key in that email is that DL was asking about the relative attributes of DL and AA products and services, this is the crux of the case, will a consumer be confused over the competing offerings. It appears that AA does not want this aspect litigated, however they are the ones that brought the case on against DL, and it is a totally predictable course of enquiry.

They're the ones that brought the case because DL is the one that infringed it. They were compelled by law to bring the case or be guaranteed to lose the trademark.


but as to the nastiness of this email, meh. DL is asking for a deposition of an apex witness. That's unnecessary, and always going go get pushback.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:38 am

D L X wrote:
zeke wrote:
sjones1975 wrote:
American and Delta are still litigating this case, and it's getting nasty. They're currently engaged in a dispute over discovery, specifically over the scheduling of a deposition of a particular AA officer. Delta's court filing from today (Dec. 2) relating to the discovery dispute contains an interesting email in the appendix. In the email, an attorney for AA accuses DL of "misuse of the discovery process to obtain largely irrelevant commercial information, presumably for some ulterior purpose...Delta's real goal was to obtain competitively sensitive information about American's business strategies and marketing plans, while virtually ignoring the issues relevant to this dispute." The email can be seen here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nMuUPD ... sp=sharing


The key in that email is that DL was asking about the relative attributes of DL and AA products and services, this is the crux of the case, will a consumer be confused over the competing offerings. It appears that AA does not want this aspect litigated, however they are the ones that brought the case on against DL, and it is a totally predictable course of enquiry.

They're the ones that brought the case because DL is the one that infringed it. They were compelled by law to bring the case or be guaranteed to lose the trademark.


but as to the nastiness of this email, meh. DL is asking for a deposition of an apex witness. That's unnecessary, and always going go get pushback.


On the nastiness point, use of the discovery process to get commercially sensitive information that really doesn’t have anything to do with the lawsuit is something that happens pretty often in commercial litigation. In my experience, calling it out is the right way to deal with it. So meh is right.
 
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zeke
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:00 am

D L X wrote:
They're the ones that brought the case because DL is the one that infringed it.


AA has yet to prove customers were confused over this, infringement has not been proven.

Cubsrule wrote:
On the nastiness point, use of the discovery process to get commercially sensitive information that really doesn’t have anything to do with the lawsuit is something that happens pretty often in commercial litigation. In my experience, calling it out is the right way to deal with it. So meh is right.


In my view this is just a strategy of the AA attorneys to try and stop DL getting the AA products and services on the record. AA has to prove that customers were confused over this, if there is no parallel or a significant difference that customers would not confuse, where is the actual infringement.

As we know many airlines have called their leading aircraft type their flagship, no one confuses that we say the AA flagship check in service.
 
D L X
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:21 am

zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
They're the ones that brought the case because DL is the one that infringed it.


AA has yet to prove customers were confused over this, infringement has not been proven.


And DL has yet to prove that AA’s executives are relevant and required to sit for deposition. You’re the one that suggested that AA had brought this on themselves. That’s hogwash. DL’s actions are what are in trial here.

zeke wrote:
In my view this is just a strategy of the AA attorneys to try and stop DL getting the AA products and services on the record.

That would be an incorrect view. AA will bring their products and services into the record. DL is just harassing AA by trying to pull AA executives out of their day to day roles to sit in deposition and testify to other, irrelevant things.
 
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zeke
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:03 pm

D L X wrote:
And DL has yet to prove that AA’s executives are relevant and required to sit for deposition.


Doesn't the email indicate they have been deposed ?

D L X wrote:
DL’s actions are what are in trial here.


What class does an "action" appear under trademark law ?

DL never sold a product or service called "flagship", they used it to describe their best aircraft, much the same way Hawaiian has used it to describe the 787, or Lufthansa the A350

"We have announced the deferral of our first 787s into late 2022. We continue to believe that the 787 is absolutely the right aircraft for our fleet and will be our flagship product, but we don’t need it in 2021. In the meantime, our long-haul fleet of A330s and A321neos is well-suited to our mission and gives us the capabilities we need to adapt our network to evolving market conditions,” Mannis told Simple Flying.

from https://simpleflying.com/boeing-787-set ... t-in-2022/

"Toronto will join an exclusive roster of North American cities Lufthansa connects to Munich with its new flagship long-haul aircraft that includes Boston, Denver, Chicago O’Hare, Newark and Vancouver. "

from https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsr ... -time.html

zeke wrote:
AA will bring their products and services into the record. DL is just harassing AA by trying to pull AA executives out of their day to day roles to sit in deposition and testify to other, irrelevant things.


How do you know what is and is not relevant, isn't that for the court to decide, not AAs attorney ?

How does DL find out how using the term Flagship to describe their A350 confused any of AAs customers ? How do you expect DL to find out if any harm was actually caused to AA ? If customers have not been confused, and no harm was made, what is the basis for the lawsuit ? DL does not have that information, AA executives do. If it is too inconvenient for AA executives to provide the information to the court, they can always withdraw the case.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:56 pm

zeke wrote:
As we know many airlines have called their leading aircraft type their flagship, no one confuses that we say the AA flagship check in service.


That really gets to the heart of the matter. Is flagship used as a common noun?

DL: The A350 is our flagship.

Or is it used as an adjective?

AA: Enjoy Flagship First Dining before your first class flight to London.

AA brought the suit - the burden of proof (customer confusion) is theirs. One element of Delta's defense strategy appears to be using discovery to show that AA found no meaningful customer confusion.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:02 pm

I am a Delta fan. But if American has Flagship trademarked, then why would American need to "prove" customer confusion at all? Delta's case is strongest if OneWorld carriers are given a pass to use it in describing their "flagship" fleet type in international markets, but even then, could this be American's perogative? It comes down to respecting trademarks and IP. Technically there may not be confusion between AA and Delta flagship usage, but it is diluting the brand. AA needs to win, otherwise it will continue to be diluted. Delta's Flagship dining service in DeltaOne, anyone? It's best in class! Use Crownship A350, Delta! Trademark that!
 
D L X
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:19 pm

zeke wrote:
Doesn't the email indicate they have been deposed ?

Sorry, the email indicates that some have been deposed. Apparently, DL doesn't want ITS execs deposed (and thus de-designated all of their testimony) while they DO want to explore irrelevant topics with AA's executives.
zeke wrote:
What class does an "action" appear under trademark law ?

...

I think this question undergirds a misunderstanding of what trademark law is.

Using a trademarked word, phrase, graphic, or even color, in commerce, attached to the sale of goods or services, is a violation. Use is an action. Use is the action that DL is currently being forced to defend.

Using FLAGSHIP in conjunction with the sale of commercial airline services is a violation of AA's trademarks, as we showed earlier in this thread. I doubt even DL is arguing that it isn't. (I haven't kept up with the pleadings because they ain't free.)

zeke wrote:
How do you know what is and is not relevant, isn't that for the court to decide, not AAs attorney ?


The court ultimately decides whether something is relevant, but if a judge has to get involved in determining relevance, she's going to be pissed off because the parties couldn't decide on their own. So, yes, AA's attorney is in the right to argue that DL was seeking irrelevant information.

Indeed, in the same email, we learned that DL was blocking the inclusion of ALL information, so they must be keenly aware themselves.

zeke wrote:
How does DL find out how using the term Flagship to describe their A350 confused any of AAs customers ?

You keep asking the wrong questions, zeke.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2273
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:49 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

That really gets to the heart of the matter. Is flagship used as a common noun?

DL: The A350 is our flagship.

Or is it used as an adjective?

AA: Enjoy Flagship First Dining before your first class flight to London.

AA brought the suit - the burden of proof (customer confusion) is theirs. One element of Delta's defense strategy appears to be using discovery to show that AA found no meaningful customer confusion.


This whole thing is as dumb as Ohio State trying to trademark "The". Flagship is a term that existed long before AA.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2686
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:10 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That really gets to the heart of the matter. Is flagship used as a common noun?

DL: The A350 is our flagship.

Or is it used as an adjective?

AA: Enjoy Flagship First Dining before your first class flight to London.

AA brought the suit - the burden of proof (customer confusion) is theirs. One element of Delta's defense strategy appears to be using discovery to show that AA found no meaningful customer confusion.


This whole thing is as dumb as Ohio State trying to trademark "The". Flagship is a term that existed long before AA.

Delta never used it before and once again AA to owns the copyright
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2459
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:31 pm

zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
They're the ones that brought the case because DL is the one that infringed it.


AA has yet to prove customers were confused over this, infringement has not been proven.

To me, not being a trademark expert but part of the flying public, this spat over using the common word "flagship" is akin to Microsoft suing Pella over the word "windows": "windows" is a common word, and Pella happens to manufacture windows.

Had AA called it "FlAAgship". they'd have a case; but here, it's a common word defined as "the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things (such as products, stores, etc.) - often used before another noun" (Merriam-Webster). This is 100% what the A350 is to DL; they are only applying the dictionary definition.
If AA has a trademark on "flagship", then it should be cancelled; if not, who's the next company they will go after for using that term as per its definition?
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:53 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
They're the ones that brought the case because DL is the one that infringed it.


AA has yet to prove customers were confused over this, infringement has not been proven.

To me, not being a trademark expert but part of the flying public, this spat over using the common word "flagship" is akin to Microsoft suing Pella over the word "windows": "windows" is a common word, and Pella happens to manufacture windows.

Had AA called it "FlAAgship". they'd have a case; but here, it's a common word defined as "the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things (such as products, stores, etc.) - often used before another noun" (Merriam-Webster). This is 100% what the A350 is to DL; they are only applying the dictionary definition.
If AA has a trademark on "flagship", then it should be cancelled; if not, who's the next company they will go after for using that term as per its definition?


AA has so much brand equity in Flagship. The answer IMO is not to cancel. I can see a decision that forbids use of the word by any U.S. competitor where there is a likelihood of brand comparison/competition in the same markets. And to the window example above, there aren't many other words to call a window. Flagship can have many synonyms, which I think, therefore, is Trademark worthy. Plus the software industry is a different industry from the window-manufacturing industry. Brand confusion would be minimal. I have to vote for American in this instance, even though I can argue in Delta's favor many times over. At some point, though, respecting IP is paramount!
 
Lootess
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”vices,

Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:08 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That really gets to the heart of the matter. Is flagship used as a common noun?

DL: The A350 is our flagship.

Or is it used as an adjective?

AA: Enjoy Flagship First Dining before your first class flight to London.

AA brought the suit - the burden of proof (customer confusion) is theirs. One element of Delta's defense strategy appears to be using discovery to show that AA found no meaningful customer confusion.


This whole thing is as dumb as Ohio State trying to trademark "The". Flagship is a term that existed long before AA.


Delta's flagship A350 Is what it is, a product that doesn't exist at AA and they have no ground to defend it.

Ohio State did it because of Marc Jacob's encroachment of 'THE' Ohio State University brand. A sweater in crimson saying 'THE' has ground for such using university colors, and they re-filed for limited apparel use.

Many universities already use 'THE' in their formal name on letterheads and degrees, my flagship school did that. In OSU's case it's in their state legislation.

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