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Boof02671
Posts: 2683
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:05 pm

Zeke are you a lawyer like DLX who does copyright cases?
 
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BubbleFrog
Posts: 233
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:14 pm

DFWEagle wrote:
Flagship Airlines was founded and owned by AA!

They bought a couple of commuter carriers and merged them under the name “Flagship Airlines” precisely because of the association of the term “Flagship” with the AA brand. Flagship flew its flights under the AA code feeding AA’s BNA hub. The carrier was later merged into American Eagle.

Precisely. And the trademark was owned by AA.

Word Mark FLAGSHIP AIRLINE
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 039. US 100 105. G & S: transportation of travelers and freight by air
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 75561898
Filing Date September 30, 1998
Current Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition July 27, 1999
Owner (APPLICANT) American Airlines, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE M.D. 5675 P.O. Box 619696 DFW Airport TEXAS 752169616
Attorney of Record KAY LYN SCHWARTZ
Prior Registrations 0664203;1435953;1767673
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "AIRLINE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date April 20, 2000
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2449
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:10 pm

D L X wrote:
zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
An 80 year old brand used continuously has secondary meaning.


The brand is American Airlines, or American, no one says they are going to fly Flagship, I guess except for those people who actually flew “Flagship Airlines” which I think was established after AA was granted their trademark.


Actually, AA, like its peers, has several brands. Maybe even 100 brands for its various services. And YES, people do say "I'm going into the Flagship Lounge" or "I'm flying Flagship First" just as much as they might say "I got upgraded to Delta One." If you're willing to accept Delta One as a brand, you have to be willing to accept Flagship as a brand also.

I'll ask you again, and I hope you answer this time. Are you familiar with the phrase "Don't leave home without it?" Was "Don't leave home without it" a product?

And if you're not from America, tell me where you're from, and I'll give you an analogy from your country.

I'm REALLY trying to help you understand trademark law here, so I hope you'll play along.

So, you can book Flagship as a service on AA, right?
Can you on DL??? No you cannot.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:41 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
D L X wrote:
zeke wrote:

The brand is American Airlines, or American, no one says they are going to fly Flagship, I guess except for those people who actually flew “Flagship Airlines” which I think was established after AA was granted their trademark.


Actually, AA, like its peers, has several brands. Maybe even 100 brands for its various services. And YES, people do say "I'm going into the Flagship Lounge" or "I'm flying Flagship First" just as much as they might say "I got upgraded to Delta One." If you're willing to accept Delta One as a brand, you have to be willing to accept Flagship as a brand also.

I'll ask you again, and I hope you answer this time. Are you familiar with the phrase "Don't leave home without it?" Was "Don't leave home without it" a product?

And if you're not from America, tell me where you're from, and I'll give you an analogy from your country.

I'm REALLY trying to help you understand trademark law here, so I hope you'll play along.

So, you can book Flagship as a service on AA, right?
Can you on DL??? No you cannot.

Trademark law does not require the infringer’s product to have the same name.

Trademark law requires that party own a trademark, and that someone else, without said party’s authorization, uses that trademark in connection with the sale of some good or service in the same class as the registration.

In other words, it does not matter what DL calls its product. What matters is if DL is using the word “flagship” in connection with the sale of commercial air services.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:41 pm

BubbleFrog wrote:
DFWEagle wrote:
Flagship Airlines was founded and owned by AA!

They bought a couple of commuter carriers and merged them under the name “Flagship Airlines” precisely because of the association of the term “Flagship” with the AA brand. Flagship flew its flights under the AA code feeding AA’s BNA hub. The carrier was later merged into American Eagle.

Precisely. And the trademark was owned by AA.

Word Mark FLAGSHIP AIRLINE
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 039. US 100 105. G & S: transportation of travelers and freight by air
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 75561898
Filing Date September 30, 1998
Current Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition July 27, 1999
Owner (APPLICANT) American Airlines, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE M.D. 5675 P.O. Box 619696 DFW Airport TEXAS 752169616
Attorney of Record KAY LYN SCHWARTZ
Prior Registrations 0664203;1435953;1767673
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "AIRLINE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date April 20, 2000

I think we can put this red herring to bed. Thanks for bringing this irrefutable evidence to the discussion.
 
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zeke
Posts: 16356
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:44 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Zeke are you a lawyer ?


Of course not, I work for a living.

D L X wrote:
I think we can put this red herring to bed. Thanks for bringing this irrefutable evidence to the discussion.




Flagship Express no longer fly aircraft however very much been in air transportation for the best part of 30 years. Nothing to do with AA.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:00 am

zeke wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Zeke are you a lawyer ?


Of course not, I work for a living.

D L X wrote:
I think we can put this red herring to bed. Thanks for bringing this irrefutable evidence to the discussion.




Flagship Express no longer fly aircraft however very much been in air transportation for the best part of 30 years. Nothing to do with AA.


You mean the Flagship Express airlines that flew cargo from March 1991 to December 1991? I’m not sure they were around long enough to sue.
 
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zeke
Posts: 16356
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”d

Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:03 am

D L X wrote:
You mean the Flagship Express airlines that flew cargo from March 1991 to December 1991? I’m not sure they were around long enough to sue.


Their history extended back to the 1960s as Rosenbalm Aviation, their call sign was Rosie. What was interesting about them is they were granted trademarks for flagship express.

Just for clarity, when exactly was AAs flagship trademark granted ? did it cover the use of the word in connection with every aspect of air transportation ?

Flagship forwarders do air freight as well.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:15 am

zeke wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
DL has spent a fortune on building its brand and branding across all of its products and services. This includes ensuring the onboard experience is the same whether you’re flying on a two month old aircraft or a 20 year old aircraft. In other words, consistency and sameness equates to a uniform customer experience which further strengthens its brand. Given that, it seems inconsistent with its brand strategy to promote, for example, the A350 over the A330 NEO, as being the best/superior/premier/“flagship” aircraft among its fleet, especially since the onboard offering is no different.


They are not using it to differentiate a product or service being sold on the A350, they don’t sell a product for example “Flagship Delta One”. They are using it as a descriptor like fastest flight time, nearest city, aircraft type.


Agree Delta is not using “flagship” to differentiate a product or service. DL is using “flagship” to differentiate one aircraft over the others in its fleet. This is inconsistent with the brand strategy.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”d

Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:32 am

zeke wrote:

D L X wrote:
You mean the Flagship Express airlines that flew cargo from March 1991 to December 1991? I’m not sure they were around long enough to sue.

What was interesting about them is they were granted trademarks for flagship express.

Nope. They applied for trademarks but were denied.
 
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zeke
Posts: 16356
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”d

Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:47 am

D L X wrote:
Nope. They applied for trademarks but were denied.


Denied or abandoned?
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:05 am

Looks like both, but I’m not going to study the prosecution history for a collateral argument. Feel free to do that yourself.
 
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BubbleFrog
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:57 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”d

Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:34 pm

zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
Nope. They applied for trademarks but were denied.


Denied or abandoned?

Refused, dismissed or invalidated.

"Abandoned because the applicant failed to respond or filed a late response to an Office action."
 
Archer
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:07 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:06 pm

Most of you are probably not old enough to remember but in the 50's and 60's, perhaps later, AA named each of their planes Flagship Detroit, Newark etc. My records of the late 50's, listing the Convair tail numbers of my flights often showed the Flagship name. The 707's did but I don't remember when they stopped doing it.
 
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BubbleFrog
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:57 pm

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:24 pm

Archer wrote:
Most of you are probably not old enough to remember but in the 50's and 60's, perhaps later, AA named each of their planes Flagship Detroit, Newark etc. My records of the late 50's, listing the Convair tail numbers of my flights often showed the Flagship name. The 707's did but I don't remember when they stopped doing it.

Interesting aspect, thank you. Should I imagine that a bit like Pam Am's Clippers? Honest question, because I am indeed too young to remember this, and am not American besides.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”d

Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:04 pm

BubbleFrog wrote:
zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
Nope. They applied for trademarks but were denied.


Denied or abandoned?

Refused, dismissed or invalidated.

"Abandoned because the applicant failed to respond or filed a late response to an Office action."

That means the PTO denied the trademark, but gave the applicant a chance to alter their application or present argument why it should be granted. (Which is standard procedure - you always get at least one chance to amend or argue.)
 
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BubbleFrog
Posts: 233
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Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”d

Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:11 pm

D L X wrote:
BubbleFrog wrote:
zeke wrote:

Denied or abandoned?

Refused, dismissed or invalidated.

"Abandoned because the applicant failed to respond or filed a late response to an Office action."

That means the PTO denied the trademark, but gave the applicant a chance to alter their application or present argument why it should be granted. (Which is standard procedure - you always get at least one chance to amend or argue.)

I know (although I'm not trademark expert). I just copied & pasted for reason of speed.

Thanks for amending my hasty post. :)
 
Speedy752
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:13 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:23 pm

I’d say there’s a clear case for non infringed use when describing the travel on an a350, especially considering that next to the term are three fare classes. Their use may be more problematic when describing their premium product but I don’t even know why they would say “flagship status” rather than “Delta One” status. The only similar trademarking of a commonly used word that I could think of is BP/Amoco “Ultimate” gasoline. The Delta analogy for a350 service would be analogous to Quiktrip saying they are the “ultimate quick stop gas station” which isn’t referring to the trademarked product of gasoline but rather to the overall gas station experience. If they said they used “ultimate fuel” that would be problematic. Of course that’s all hypothetical since no corollary claim is made, but flagship is a pretty commonly used term used to describe best biggest newest across multiple industries and has a tradition of being used in that manner. I didn’t even know such a service existed on AA but I’m sure the lawyers will busy themselves on both sides splicing apart what exactly was “flagship” in DLs claim since only certain categories are exempt from use.
 
Lootess
Posts: 705
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:28 pm

jscottwomack wrote:
Major US Airlines fight over everything. Surprised that they have not had a lawsuit against each other for the shade of red one uses in their logo. AA & DAL with Flagship. DAL & LUV over gates at Dallas Love Field.All the Majors at slot controlled airports. Either they need to learn to get along Or better yet..... I say we pick a neutral site and have a 3 round, no holds bared, winner take all fight by the CEO's and settle the petty bickering once and for all. We go old viking style with choice of weapons.


The best one was DL ending interlining and IROPS with AA in 2015, before signing a new IROPS only deal in 2018. The ATL power-grid-on-fire issue along with wretched weather that affected both of them over the years made them bury that hatchet, sort of.

But yes AA-DL fight each other in DOT dockets all the time. From almost every route authority that affects China and Brazil. Playing the
'my hub needs this route more than you' game. Yet they made probably the biggest slot deal of the decade with DCA and LGA, making it work in both their favor. It's hilarious in a sense.

WN-DL and Love Field is really more on city of Dallas being knuckleheads, and mismanaging a situation that could have easily worked out for all 3 airlines at the field.

This flagship lawsuit is much smaller than most of their fighting in DOT requests.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:06 pm

Lootess wrote:
Yet they made probably the biggest slot deal of the decade with DCA and LGA, making it work in both their favor.

That was actually US Airways that made that swap with Delta, before US-AA existed.

I think that if US and AA had already merged, the merged entity would have kept those LGA slots and made NYC a powerhouse.

(Not that I’m one bit upset that I now get an AA hub 5 miles from my house in DC.)
 
Lootess
Posts: 705
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:47 pm

D L X wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Yet they made probably the biggest slot deal of the decade with DCA and LGA, making it work in both their favor.

That was actually US Airways that made that swap with Delta, before US-AA existed.

I think that if US and AA had already merged, the merged entity would have kept those LGA slots and made NYC a powerhouse.

(Not that I’m one bit upset that I now get an AA hub 5 miles from my house in DC.)


Nah, Doug Parker was running the US ship then, and still does now. Everyone knows AA doesn't exist.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA sues DL over the use of the term “Flagship”

Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:01 am

Lootess wrote:
D L X wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Yet they made probably the biggest slot deal of the decade with DCA and LGA, making it work in both their favor.

That was actually US Airways that made that swap with Delta, before US-AA existed.

I think that if US and AA had already merged, the merged entity would have kept those LGA slots and made NYC a powerhouse.

(Not that I’m one bit upset that I now get an AA hub 5 miles from my house in DC.)


Nah, Doug Parker was running the US ship then, and still does now. Everyone knows AA doesn't exist.

Umm... ok.
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