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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:44 pm

eta unknown wrote:
TC957 wrote:
You can bet that the UK press will all over Ryanair and their " 737-8200 " cover-up designation for the MAX-8 once / if they start flying again.

Why do you think so? The average person does not care- only forum geeks here are making an issue out of it.

He thinks so because that is what the press do. And not just in the UK.
Why do you think different?
Remember - the press do not have to be logical or sensible; they just have to generate headlines that sell copy, so that they get paid.
What do you think the press are in it for? :scratchchin:

p.s. there is at least one "average person" in this household who cares very much about flying in the MAX, and she cannot tell the difference between a MC-130 and an CV-22, even though she sees them every day.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
afgeneral
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:47 pm

meanwhile you are almost guaranteed to not fly a MAX with EasyJet and Wizz Air
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:54 pm

I think different because like some others here I remember the DC-10 grounding fallout... minimal. Just eliminate the words max from the outside and the safety cards and you'll be fine.
 
NonTechAvLover
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:31 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
These Twitter warriors are spewing nothing but Bravado. Some will back up their words and will do everything to avoid the MAX including canceling their trip and walking out of the airport if a plane is swapped. But they are the minority of the minority of the minority. MOL is not worried about them and neither is any other airline.


OK, unless common sense has not left the discussion for good and MOL thinks the way you say he does, why doesn’t he say “happy to announce plane type as soon as it is put on the schedule and happy to refund whoever wants to return a MAX ticket” ‘since that group is a minority of the minority of the minority’”? Either these two statements cannot be true at the same time or you have an explanation you are not sharing with us. Pray explain, forget even the refund, if he believes what you believe, why not tell people the plane type in advance, it is only the tiniest minority who cares anyway, why not tell them? Care to offer a response?
 
wr911
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:47 pm

I agree with many of the comments and I am in the fortunate position that I can pay a bit "more" if I have to and I also know some people do not have this option. As YVR is my home airport, I do make some of these decisions already such as I refuse to book AC to ORD as they now use a regional jet, I rather fly to PHX and then to ORD using an AIrbus and a 787. Takes longer and costs a bit more but no way am I flying on regional jet for almost 4 hours and as I like to fly it is a bonus. I also choose my long haul flights the same way, use to fly BA to LHR and then to my final destination but their hard product is so bad and their soft product even worse, I am now back to LH. Would I fly Ryanair if they are using the Max, no. Would I fly AC to PSP on the 737Max, no, alternatives are there.
 
hpff
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:01 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
I have thought about this question for a while but didn’t want to derail a thread but I think it works here.

So you are a pax who has enough knowledge to know you are booking a MAX and you don’t want to be on a MAX because you think it is dangerous.

You are flying from OMA-DEN and need to be in DEN by noon for a major meeting. Your airline of choice is Southwest and Southwest is flying a 737-8. The only other option to get you to DEN on time is a United Express CRJ-200.

The southwest fare is $120 united is charging $400. Which do you choose?

You also have the option of going to DEN the night before on Southwest and buying a hotel room and spending an extra day on the road.

Or you have the option of connecting through ORD/MDW/MSP/DFW/IAH/SLC. All connecting fares are over $300.

I’m interested to hear what you have to say. Just how strong are your convictions. My bet is they are strong once maybe twice then you will start to slip. This is why most airlines are not concerned long term about the MAX reputation.


If it’s for business, the $400 CRJ, full stop.
 
JibberJim
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:04 pm

eta unknown wrote:
TC957 wrote:
You can bet that the UK press will all over Ryanair and their " 737-8200 " cover-up designation for the MAX-8 once / if they start flying again.

Why do you think so? The average person does not care- only forum geeks here are making an issue out of it.


'cos the press like the stories, the BBC for example have posted dozens of articles on the subject https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c2g0x ... -737-max-8 (the only other plane they have as a specific topic btw is concorde which is another indicator to how interested the press are in the 737 Max) the average person may not care much about it, but they like reading the news - US company CEO changes would not be the main news item on the domestic UK news site if they didn't know that people were interested in reading about it.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:55 pm

Andy33 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:

At this point, you're just trying to make UA/Amtrak as ridiculously unappealing as possible.


Yes I am because I want to know how strong your convictions are. Will you leave your beloved South West and start paying for bags? Will you cut up your mileage plus card and go fly on Delta since they don’t yet have the MAX. Will you put your self into a god awful CRJ-200 for a couple hours just to avoid the MAX.

These Twitter warriors are spewing nothing but Bravado. Some will back up their words and will do everything to avoid the MAX including canceling their trip and walking out of the airport if a plane is swapped. But they are the minority of the minority of the minority. MOL is not worried about them and neither is any other airline.


I'm sure your assessment of the situation in the USA would be more accurate than mine, but Ryanair is a European shorthaul airline, with hardly any flights over 3 hours duration. It is very difficult to think of any journey where the alternative to a Ryanair flight involves a CRJ-200 as these are rare in Europe, but there are plenty of alternatives involving both legacy and LCC airlines that have no 737MAX planes either delivered or on order; or high-speed trains; or driving. I suspect Michael O'Leary is putting out a sheet anchor to prove to the stock market that Ryanair has at least considered potential problems, even if the conclusion is that they won't have any.


You make a great point. The rails in Europe are fantastic and a great way to travel. So the answer over in the EU is most likely different.

In the US frontier Spirit and Delta are the only major airlines that won’t have MAXs. And Frontier and Spirit.........I’d rather by in a CRJ.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:59 pm

hpff wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
I have thought about this question for a while but didn’t want to derail a thread but I think it works here.

So you are a pax who has enough knowledge to know you are booking a MAX and you don’t want to be on a MAX because you think it is dangerous.

You are flying from OMA-DEN and need to be in DEN by noon for a major meeting. Your airline of choice is Southwest and Southwest is flying a 737-8. The only other option to get you to DEN on time is a United Express CRJ-200.

The southwest fare is $120 united is charging $400. Which do you choose?

You also have the option of going to DEN the night before on Southwest and buying a hotel room and spending an extra day on the road.

Or you have the option of connecting through ORD/MDW/MSP/DFW/IAH/SLC. All connecting fares are over $300.

I’m interested to hear what you have to say. Just how strong are your convictions. My bet is they are strong once maybe twice then you will start to slip. This is why most airlines are not concerned long term about the MAX reputation.


If it’s for business, the $400 CRJ, full stop.


Thank you!
 
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:02 pm

NonTechAvLover wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:


OK, unless common sense has not left the discussion for good and MOL thinks the way you say he does, why doesn’t he say “happy to announce plane type as soon as it is put on the schedule and happy to refund whoever wants to return a MAX ticket” ‘since that group is a minority of the minority of the minority’”? Either these two statements cannot be true at the same time or you have an explanation you are not sharing with us. Pray explain, forget even the refund, if he believes what you believe, why not tell people the plane type in advance, it is only the tiniest minority who cares anyway, why not tell them? Care to offer a response?


I can’t answer your question And can only give you my opinion on the situation.
 
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:21 pm

HAHA they really think that will work.

Passengers are going to panic when they find out they are on a MAX and the media is going to be looking for those stories and videos. You think the British Media wont love a good video of passengers freaking out when they find out its a MAX. The public relations nightmare hasn't even started for Boeing and the airlines that operate the MAX. This situation is unprecedented, we have never had a plane in this day and age of media that the public is terrified to step foot on.

Customers still won't care what plane they as long it isn't the MAX. Everyone has heard of the MAX.
 
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:16 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
What are you going to do?

I replied already. If the Max is re-certified because the new Boeing CEO waved a magic wand and fixed everything and the FAA basked in his glory and said Ok, I am not flying the Max. Not if it is a last-minute substitution at the gate. I reserve the right to change my stance after a year or two or ten of no Max dropping like flies...

Absent that scenario, I am flying United, and whatever airplane United operates, because that's how my employer rolls. I'm not subscribing to the hype the Max will be the safest plane ever after being re-certified, but at the very least it will be the most closely inspected plane ever. Any systemic issue should have been discovered, hopefully.
 
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:31 am

Boeing will behave high profile regarding the MAX RTS, but airlines would send their MAX back to sky as low profile as possible.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:17 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
So only 3 people have answered the question and all said they would take the train and one said they would pay an extra $270 to fly United. Most of us could stomach that or an extra night in a hotel to feel comfortable and safe. But now let’s it a family of 4 out there.

Same scenario I already posted, you still have the meeting at noon in DEN but now you decide to make a vacation out of it. It’s a one day meeting and then you are going to take your wife and 2 kids skiing for a couple days up in the mountains.

So the SW 737-8 it would cost $520 for tickets but we’re not going to do that. So we look at United and it’s $1600 that’s an extra $1080.

So then we look at the train, same price as SW but it’s a 9 hour trip with teenagers.....might be fun.....with the right kids. But now you have to leave a day early. So you pull the kids out of a day of school and book an extra night in the hotel. But you can’t buy 1 room you will need 2. You can’t have your 15 year old and 17 year old sleeping in the same bed.

The hotel is $150 a night so $300 for the 2 then you add $25 a night per room for the breakfast in the morning so you can feed your family.

So now you are out $350. Now you get to DEN on the train and need to feed your family Of 4 dinner so let’s say $75 so now you are at $425.

Taking United costs you an extra $1080
Taking the train will cost you an extra day and a 9 hour trip, a day of school and $450.

Do you honestly think these numbers are acceptable to the majority of families? Is it acceptable to you?

The cost is little, it is the time. When I fly it is specific. For example, my next flight I fly this coming Friday due to child custody (I will enjoy time with my kids when I have custody), I am staying with a relative to save money (college tuition will be coming soon). Relatives want to pick me up and drop me off, which limits what times I can fly. One of the airline choices for the route isn't reliable (about an 8% cancellation rate), which I will not risk.

So time would keep me down to a choice of 2 airlines, one which doesn't fly at the times I want. So you are right, the MAX will get filled as needed.

Retirees who have the time and funds can opt for rail solutions. For my destination, rail adds a full day each way. Since I only get 5 days with relatives due to our mutual schedule conflicts, I wouldn't work around.

FR will have no trouble selling tickets. The MAX will be safer than driving by a huge amount. But you have a good point, secondary factors are more important than a small perceived safety risk. The reality is, the MAX has 2 crashes out what? 400 aircraft, 6 flights per day (say 2,400/day), I saw 8,600 on a NYT blurb (ran out of free reads), so I could believe 8,600 flights/week. So a 1 in 25,000 or so risk. Update will bring that well above industry standards.

I'd fly a MAX when it returns. It helps I know a MAX test pilot for Boeing and the information I'm receiving is... comforting.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:24 pm

lightsaber wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
So only 3 people have answered the question and all said they would take the train and one said they would pay an extra $270 to fly United. Most of us could stomach that or an extra night in a hotel to feel comfortable and safe. But now let’s it a family of 4 out there.

Same scenario I already posted, you still have the meeting at noon in DEN but now you decide to make a vacation out of it. It’s a one day meeting and then you are going to take your wife and 2 kids skiing for a couple days up in the mountains.

So the SW 737-8 it would cost $520 for tickets but we’re not going to do that. So we look at United and it’s $1600 that’s an extra $1080.

So then we look at the train, same price as SW but it’s a 9 hour trip with teenagers.....might be fun.....with the right kids. But now you have to leave a day early. So you pull the kids out of a day of school and book an extra night in the hotel. But you can’t buy 1 room you will need 2. You can’t have your 15 year old and 17 year old sleeping in the same bed.

The hotel is $150 a night so $300 for the 2 then you add $25 a night per room for the breakfast in the morning so you can feed your family.

So now you are out $350. Now you get to DEN on the train and need to feed your family Of 4 dinner so let’s say $75 so now you are at $425.

Taking United costs you an extra $1080
Taking the train will cost you an extra day and a 9 hour trip, a day of school and $450.

Do you honestly think these numbers are acceptable to the majority of families? Is it acceptable to you?

The cost is little, it is the time. When I fly it is specific. For example, my next flight I fly this coming Friday due to child custody (I will enjoy time with my kids when I have custody), I am staying with a relative to save money (college tuition will be coming soon). Relatives want to pick me up and drop me off, which limits what times I can fly. One of the airline choices for the route isn't reliable (about an 8% cancellation rate), which I will not risk.

So time would keep me down to a choice of 2 airlines, one which doesn't fly at the times I want. So you are right, the MAX will get filled as needed.

Retirees who have the time and funds can opt for rail solutions. For my destination, rail adds a full day each way. Since I only get 5 days with relatives due to our mutual schedule conflicts, I wouldn't work around.

FR will have no trouble selling tickets. The MAX will be safer than driving by a huge amount. But you have a good point, secondary factors are more important than a small perceived safety risk. The reality is, the MAX has 2 crashes out what? 400 aircraft, 6 flights per day (say 2,400/day), I saw 8,600 on a NYT blurb (ran out of free reads), so I could believe 8,600 flights/week. So a 1 in 25,000 or so risk. Update will bring that well above industry standards.

I'd fly a MAX when it returns. It helps I know a MAX test pilot for Boeing and the information I'm receiving is... comforting.

Lightsaber


Great post thank you! Happy Hollidays
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:08 pm

I wonder if major European LCCs like EasyJet, Wizz, Vueling will promote that fact that they're MAX-free once the MAX is back in service?

I remember during the DC-10 groundings in the 70s, TWA made it very clear in their marketing that they flew only 747s and L-1011s
 
lammy
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:28 pm

It would be interesting to see "All-Airbus Fleet" on airline advertising but I suspect like Virgin's "4 engines 4 long haul" it would be tying themselves to a commitment they would rather be able to drop when it makes financial sense to do so.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:17 am

I'm sure someone will create a widget to alert travelers if their flight is on a MAX even if 48-72 hours before just to spite them. All you do is enter your flight number and date and once an aircraft is assigned to you we'll alert you. Not that complicated to design and effective.
@DadCelo
 
Andy33
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:00 am

ACCS300 wrote:
I wonder if major European LCCs like EasyJet, Wizz, Vueling will promote that fact that they're MAX-free once the MAX is back in service?

I remember during the DC-10 groundings in the 70s, TWA made it very clear in their marketing that they flew only 747s and L-1011s


I doubt that Vueling would participate - they're meant to be one of the beneficiaries of IAG's 200-plane MAX Letter of Intent.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:53 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I want to know reputational level of the pilot flying my plane, definitely in the top half. LOL

No doubt. I want to know if they have failed hand flying training but are flying anyway. Or if they have a history of just randomly toggling buttons during sim training when they don’t know what to do.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:16 am

ikramerica wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I want to know reputational level of the pilot flying my plane, definitely in the top half. LOL

No doubt. I want to know if they have failed hand flying training but are flying anyway. Or if they have a history of just randomly toggling buttons during sim training when they don’t know what to do.


There is no “hand flying training” and there is certainly nothing to fail. All training is a mixture of hand flying and automation. We get graded on our ability to manage a situation, and there are a 100 ways to manage the same situation. Some will do everything hand flown and some will do everything on automation and it’s graded the same no matter how it’s done.

If they are lost and confused during training.....that’s a different story
 
namezero111111
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:40 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Ok does it get you there before noon?

If it doesn’t then how much for a state room so you can sleep? Or will you still need to buy a hote the night before plus sped 9 hours on a train?


I’ll just take whatever non-deadly option is next cheapest/most convenient.


So out of the options presented what do you choose.

Both of you are not answering the question, you are just repeating the tired line of I won’t fly a MAX.

How much inconvenience is too much, how much are you willing to pay?


Do I have to suggest the obvious?
If no safe transport is available at your convenience, screw the dumb meeting and make a phone call.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:12 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
But you can’t buy 1 room you will need 2. You can’t have your 15 year old and 17 year old sleeping in the same bed.

Why would you need two. Out of all the family vacations I have gone on (usually four of us unless a grandparent or two were with us), there was only one trip where two rooms were required, and that was in Japan because a room with two beds could only fit one person per bed.
CriticalPoint wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I want to know reputational level of the pilot flying my plane, definitely in the top half. LOL

No doubt. I want to know if they have failed hand flying training but are flying anyway. Or if they have a history of just randomly toggling buttons during sim training when they don’t know what to do.


There is no “hand flying training” and there is certainly nothing to fail. All training is a mixture of hand flying and automation. We get graded on our ability to manage a situation, and there are a 100 ways to manage the same situation. Some will do everything hand flown and some will do everything on automation and it’s graded the same no matter how it’s done.

If they are lost and confused during training.....that’s a different story

I'm guessing Atlas 3591 comes to mind here.
Captain Kevin
 
AIRT0M
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:15 pm

What is FR afraid of? Why not let the flying public decide? Apparently people don't care, what they fly, as long as it's cheap.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:15 pm

AirKevin wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
But you can’t buy 1 room you will need 2. You can’t have your 15 year old and 17 year old sleeping in the same bed.

Why would you need two. Out of all the family vacations I have gone on (usually four of us unless a grandparent or two were with us), there was only one trip where two rooms were required, and that was in Japan because a room with two beds could only fit one person per bed.
CriticalPoint wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
No doubt. I want to know if they have failed hand flying training but are flying anyway. Or if they have a history of just randomly toggling buttons during sim training when they don’t know what to do.


There is no “hand flying training” and there is certainly nothing to fail. All training is a mixture of hand flying and automation. We get graded on our ability to manage a situation, and there are a 100 ways to manage the same situation. Some will do everything hand flown and some will do everything on automation and it’s graded the same no matter how it’s done.

If they are lost and confused during training.....that’s a different story

I'm guessing Atlas 3591 comes to mind here.


Every vacation Iv ever been on my brother and I got separate beds and my daughters get separate beds unless we get a suite. My brother and I are both over 6 feet 230lbs sharing a bed was not an option.

As to Atlas 3591. My point still stands you don’t get graded on manually controlling the aircraft except for 1 ILS approach to a missed and a visual approach. Everything else is pilots discretion whether the use automation or not.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:16 pm

namezero111111 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
OB1504 wrote:

I’ll just take whatever non-deadly option is next cheapest/most convenient.


So out of the options presented what do you choose.

Both of you are not answering the question, you are just repeating the tired line of I won’t fly a MAX.

How much inconvenience is too much, how much are you willing to pay?


Do I have to suggest the obvious?
If no safe transport is available at your convenience, screw the dumb meeting and make a phone call.


Well you must have a pretty easy going boss. I would get fired for the mentality. Especially since you are making an uniformed decision about what is safe and what isn’t.
 
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PPVLC
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:43 pm

Jetty wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Jetty wrote:
But we don’t live in the 50’s and 60’s. The MAX has no precedent when it comes to bad press about a specific plane type, making negative headlines in mainstream news media for over a year and being called ‘Monster from Seattle’ and ‘Plane of Death’ in serious newspapers.

If you look at package holidays it’s evident that even people with a small budget pay a premium to avoid destinations that are irrationally perceived as dangerous, i.e. after an isolated terror attack. I’m not sure this will be any different for planes.


You don’t think there were news papers in the 50’s and 60’s? Planes had mid airs over New York and in the Grand Canyon. Airliners were blowing up due to terror attacks and getting hijacked, granted most of those were in the 70s. People saw the news yet they still flew. Sam will happen here.

Of course there were newspapers back then. But it’s not a given that consumers will behave the same decades later, and if you compare the amount of bad press instead of actual incidents the MAX does far worse than any plane in that era.



To be fair we can't compare 20th century press with today's press, we live in a digital era and anyone can use social media to say or repeat anything they want. Also, planes were considered rather "risky" in the past, people see them differently and expect more from them nowadays. I'm not sure the MAX doesn't deserve the bad press treatment it's getting, the two accidents were awful and we don't expect something like this to happen now, I'm not an engineer and I'm using just common sense, repercussion in the 21st century isn't something to be taken for granted. Happy Christmas to you all
Cabin crew L188 707 727 737 767 A300 DC10 MD11 777 747
 
Zaf
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:18 pm

Remember the aggressive marketing from FR like arrividerci Alitalia or Bye Bye Latehansa. Maybe these airlines can now do something like "pull up Ryanair"
 
strfyr51
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:35 pm

Noshow wrote:
They have "bases"with aircraft essentially only shuttling out and in. Pretty easy to know where an aircraft will be operating.

He means? You're going to fly the MAX airplanes whether you like it or NOT!
 
strfyr51
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:42 pm

Would any of you even KNOW what model of 737 you're flying on? the MAX 7 looks very much like a -700 the MAX-8 and the 9 look very similar to the -800 and the 900 so? how would you know id they didn'tr MONEY BACK IF YOU DON'T LIKE tell you? And it appears that they they have NO intention of doing so, And they're NOT giving you your MONEY back if you don't like it !!
11
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:04 pm

People will care until they have to do 2 minutes of research to see "if they're on that Airbus MAX 747 aircraft." Not worth the $6 they save.

And if they find out at the gate they're gonna be on a MAX? They may complain until they are told, no, they won't get their money back, and the next flight is in 2 and a half hours. Not worth it.

THAT is the public at large.

And among the 1% that cares about aviation, probably only 20% will be dramatic enough to avoid the aircraft. Idk, I'm not a huge risk taker in life, but come on, live in a plastic bubble if you're scared of the 0.000006% risk of death over the 0.000001% risk
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:34 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
People will care until they have to do 2 minutes of research to see "if they're on that Airbus MAX 747 aircraft." Not worth the $6 they save.

And if they find out at the gate they're gonna be on a MAX? They may complain until they are told, no, they won't get their money back, and the next flight is in 2 and a half hours. Not worth it.

THAT is the public at large.

And among the 1% that cares about aviation, probably only 20% will be dramatic enough to avoid the aircraft. Idk, I'm not a huge risk taker in life, but come on, live in a plastic bubble if you're scared of the 0.000006% risk of death over the 0.000001% risk


Nail on the head
 
Bhoy
Posts: 548
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:48 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Would any of you even KNOW what model of 737 you're flying on? the MAX 7 looks very much like a -700 the MAX-8 and the 9 look very similar to the -800 and the 900 so? how would you know id they didn'tr MONEY BACK IF YOU DON'T LIKE tell you? And it appears that they they have NO intention of doing so, And they're NOT giving you your MONEY back if you don't like it !!
11

In Ryanair’s case, it’s pretty obvious it’s a Max to look at because of the Mid Cabin exit that isn’t present in the 737-8AS.
 
JayBCN
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:09 pm

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:38 am

Andy33 wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
I wonder if major European LCCs like EasyJet, Wizz, Vueling will promote that fact that they're MAX-free once the MAX is back in service?

I remember during the DC-10 groundings in the 70s, TWA made it very clear in their marketing that they flew only 747s and L-1011s


I doubt that Vueling would participate - they're meant to be one of the beneficiaries of IAG's 200-plane MAX Letter of Intent.


I wonder if you can be the „beneficiary“ of something as negative as a deal for the MAX.
 
manbok
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:30 pm

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:40 pm

jghealey wrote:
I don't think the average customer will be able to tell if the seatmap is any different, and Ryanair or indeed other low cost airlines like easyJet and Notwegian don't disclose the aircraft type - on easyJet for instance there is no way of telling whether you're flying the A319 or the A321neo other than the seatmap. It doesn't even display on google flights. As for when MOL says that they do the scheduling the night before - I don't see how that can feasibly be the case given that loads of seats would be going out empty on the routes that are scheduled to be on a MAX.

Plus the MAX will be just as safe as a 737 so arguably passengers have no logical reason to refuse to fly on it once it's un-grounded.


What are you talking about? You do know that EasyJet is only operating Airbus anyway, I hope.

You can easily avoid the 737 by choosing a none Boeing airline.

I personally will never fly with a Boeing again, not just because of the crashes, but the ethics at that place is rotten to the core.
 
jghealey
Posts: 242
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:28 am

manbok wrote:
jghealey wrote:
I don't think the average customer will be able to tell if the seatmap is any different, and Ryanair or indeed other low cost airlines like easyJet and Notwegian don't disclose the aircraft type - on easyJet for instance there is no way of telling whether you're flying the A319 or the A321neo other than the seatmap. It doesn't even display on google flights. As for when MOL says that they do the scheduling the night before - I don't see how that can feasibly be the case given that loads of seats would be going out empty on the routes that are scheduled to be on a MAX.

Plus the MAX will be just as safe as a 737 so arguably passengers have no logical reason to refuse to fly on it once it's un-grounded.


What are you talking about? You do know that EasyJet is only operating Airbus anyway, I hope.

You can easily avoid the 737 by choosing a none Boeing airline.

I personally will never fly with a Boeing again, not just because of the crashes, but the ethics at that place is rotten to the core.

I was using easyJet as an example. Of course I know they are all airbus. My point was that even customers who know they operate Airbus (they don't tell you so I'm sure many won't) often won't be able to distinguish between types, eg A319 and a321neo unless they have knowledge of the seatmaps for each one. Likewise with Ryanair it would be extremely difficult for customers to avoid the MAX without seatmap knowledge. All of Ryanair's fleet is currently 737-800s (and they have 450 or so of them) and they fly to many places others don't (meaning people often have no other option) so I'm not sure flying 'a none Boeing airline' would really help in this case.
 
TC957
Posts: 3809
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:51 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Would any of you even KNOW what model of 737 you're flying on? the MAX 7 looks very much like a -700 the MAX-8 and the 9 look very similar to the -800 and the 900 so? how would you know id they didn'tr MONEY BACK IF YOU DON'T LIKE tell you? And it appears that they they have NO intention of doing so, And they're NOT giving you your MONEY back if you don't like it !!
11

Pretty much any a-netter would soon identify the new-style winglets, larger engines with the raked rear cover. Plus the registration of course.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:37 pm

jghealey wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
jghealey wrote:
Plus the MAX will be just as safe as a 737 so arguably passengers have no logical reason to refuse to fly on it once it's un-grounded.

At the moment the MAX has a terrible safety record and it has been grounded almost a year. How can you say the MAX will be just as safe as a 737? Personally I don’t trust this aircraft. Sometimes I see the type already pop up in flight search engines when I am looking at tickets for spring travel, for example with Air Canada, Icelandair and Norwegian. As soon as that’s the case I select another airline who doesn’t plan to operate the MAX. Passengers don’t need a logical reason to avoid the MAX, they need to feel safe and that’s not what they believe Boeing is providing.

But it's literally gone through 10 months now of rigorous testing and re-certification... it'll literally be the safest plane in the skies once it's reapproved. There is no reason for passengers not to feel safe. And anyway, this conversation has been had so many times before I'm sure we don't need to have it again

I understand I’m late t the game here, but I can’t help myself as that’s not how risk management/assessment works. The amount of time something has been grounded and under the microscope does not ever equate to how safe it is. Believing so is fallacious logic. Realistically it can’t ever be a safer airframe than the 737NG because no new actual risk mitigating safety features were added. Only features that increases risk were added as they were not properly executed (normally if such feature was added the risk would be minimized to negligible proportions). It could be as safe as the 737NG, but that’s it; it would not be the safest aircraft in the skies, most definitely not in a literal sense. The problem is until it is “fixed” and ungrounded much uncertainty clouds what is wrong with it and what will be done to it. When it is fixed, considering a catastrophic mistake by both Boeing and regulators was made, the question will remain for years if they actually did get it right this time or if they missed anything. If a mistake was made before a mistake could be made again. In this time period there will be some distrust from some passengers.
jghealey wrote:
Plus the MAX will be just as safe as a 737 so arguably passengers have no logical reason to refuse to fly on it once it's un-grounded.

Now onto more recent discussion, again, no. As I said before, considering the system of engineering and regulation failed so miserably before (now proven to have happened with some deliberation with the company messages), who’s to say it doesn’t fail in some respect again? That is left up to time in that after we see the MAX fly safely for a few years then we can say for most certain it is safe. It won’t be considered as safe as a 737NG until it has a substantial track record and for some this incident has taught them not to trust Boeing which I think is fair considering the circumstances. Sure it could me just as safe once it’s ungrounded, but we don’t know with certainty until that track record is built. I wouldn't call it distinctly illogical to refuse to fly on a MAX considering the history of dishonesty that will surround it for years and also considering the average customer is not informed enough to know why it is or isn’t safe (most customers know his about themselves). That leaves someone to decide how much risk they want to take with little basis to measure the risk off of.

Having said that, the overwhelming majority wouldn’t know what they’re flying on anyway. Remember people kept claiming airlines were flying MAXes on fly for us to see that they were in fact 737NGs mistaken as MAX.

I will chose to avoid the thing as best I can, but for me, because I would feel a unsettled flying on a product of such deliberate corporate atrocity and oversight just to save a few bucks that ended up killing hundreds of people.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

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dfpinto
Posts: 84
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:13 pm

People, is this your first day as a human being?

You're missing a critical point: You can't just throw facts and scenarios to someone that doesn't have a sense of safety, the same way that it doesn't work to tell "calm down" to someone having a panic attack. When you're driving in a large city and enter a suspicious neighborhood by mistake, your first instinct is "let me get the hell out of here", not "let me see what's the crime rate in this area".

I'm on the skeptical side of the topic. I don't want to fly with the MAX when it returns to service. However, after some time, when the plane has proven to be safe, I'll gladly remove my skepticism. Yes, it's an irrational fear, but humans are allowed to irrational once in a while.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:58 pm

They will know which model is flying which route, but they probably won't know which exact plane they will use. They need to be concerned about seating plans and the like surely?
 
alan3
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:20 pm

In virtual every single year from 1970 until the early 1990s, at least 1500 to 2000 people died EACH YEAR (some years over 3000) in 300-400 annual air incidents. In the last decade the number has been dramatically lower in terms of both incidents and deaths, despite air travel being vastly more common.

I wonder how much worry and panic and refusal to fly the aircraft involved (DC10's, 747's, 707's, etc) there was back then?

But in today's online world with so much 24/7 communication and constant drumbeat of news, it's going to be very hard for MAX airlines to gain people's confidence back if they don't either suppress the aircraft type or change its name. After all this time grounded and so much money lost, if the same incident where to happen again Boeing is toast and then know it.

Personally I won't avoid flying the MAX and if it's the best flight for me, I will fly it again once it gets approval.
 
JibberJim
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:33 pm

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:36 pm

alan3 wrote:
I wonder how much worry and panic and refusal to fly the aircraft involved (DC10's, 747's, 707's, etc) there was back then?


The choice was fly or not fly in such situations, now it's a choice of fly the really dangerous plane designed by clowns and managed by monkeys or a plane that has been proven pretty safe. A completely different scenario.
 
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aeromoe
Posts: 1281
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:20 pm

NonTechAvLover wrote:

8h 49 minutes and $104 on Amtrak, I am sure it is a lovely ride as well.


It's a lovely ride. In the dark (mostly). Both directions.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
vfw614
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Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:10 pm

The MAX is shown as such in reservation systems. Unless that changes, I don't understand where the idea comes from that airlines can pin a MAX on passengers. As far as I am concerned, Air Canada has just lost my business for an expensive C class trip in July because on of the segments had a 737MAX8 showing up in the GDS. And off I went to United.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9723
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:04 am

dfpinto

Surely these instincts are the reason that animals (including humans) stay alive.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:16 pm

vfw614 wrote:
The MAX is shown as such in reservation systems. Unless that changes, I don't understand where the idea comes from that airlines can pin a MAX on passengers. As far as I am concerned, Air Canada has just lost my business for an expensive C class trip in July because on of the segments had a 737MAX8 showing up in the GDS. And off I went to United.

Ryanair (and other European LCCs) don’t really use Reservation systems though, they try and push everything through their own website, where aircraft type isn’t mentioned (although if you book a seat, you can normally deduce from the seat map what type is planned, though again the actual type isn’t mentioned). In GDS’, all their flights’d probably just get listed as ‘EQV’.
 
beechnut
Posts: 927
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:38 pm

dfpinto wrote:
People, is this your first day as a human being?

You're missing a critical point: You can't just throw facts and scenarios to someone that doesn't have a sense of safety, the same way that it doesn't work to tell "calm down" to someone having a panic attack. When you're driving in a large city and enter a suspicious neighborhood by mistake, your first instinct is "let me get the hell out of here", not "let me see what's the crime rate in this area".

I'm on the skeptical side of the topic. I don't want to fly with the MAX when it returns to service. However, after some time, when the plane has proven to be safe, I'll gladly remove my skepticism. Yes, it's an irrational fear, but humans are allowed to irrational once in a while.


I don't think it is an "irrational fear". I think it is risk management. So far the statistics put the MAX at the top of the accident statistics. It is normal for anyone with something significant at stake, oh, like one's life, to assess risk before engaging in an activity. And I find that more and more true as I age (I'm 61).

When I have hard statistics to prove that the MAX is just as safe as other aircraft after RTS, I'll consider flying on it. Otherwise, no. Given the vitiated certification process, there may be other surprises in the future. Only a lengthy period of safe service can demonstrate that the risk has returned to normal.

Beech
 
smartplane
Posts: 1506
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:13 pm

We've seen instances where passengers have been unwillingly removed from flights. After RTS, how long before there's an incident where passengers attempt to disembark, because someone realises it's a MAX, and spreads the word? One way to get a row to yourself?

Will 'MAX' be listed along with words like 'bomb', 'hijack', 'weapon' and 'hostage' that can get the user removed from a flight?

Once the MAX return's to service, it's about changing passenger perceptions. Every incident free flight will assist the process, a little bit at a time. Every problem and incident though will be widely reported, and published globally.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:18 pm

smartplane wrote:
We've seen instances where passengers have been unwillingly removed from flights. After RTS, how long before there's an incident where passengers attempt to disembark, because someone realises it's a MAX, and spreads the word? One way to get a row to yourself?

Will 'MAX' be listed along with words like 'bomb', 'hijack', 'weapon' and 'hostage' that can get the user removed from a flight?

Once the MAX return's to service, it's about changing passenger perceptions. Every incident free flight will assist the process, a little bit at a time. Every problem and incident though will be widely reported, and published globally.


The premise of this post is far fetched and not really worth significant consideration. Could someone ask to get off after boarding? Sure. Is this a David Dao situation in the making? No. Will this be an issue with 99.99% of passengers who buy a ticket and then worry about the MAX? No.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1506
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Ryanair: Passengers won't know if they're getting a MAX

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It helps I know a MAX test pilot for Boeing and the information I'm receiving is... comforting.

All Boeing staff and contractors with any part in the MAX RTS have been scripted. The test pilot is either very brave, or you are hearing what Boeing want you to hear.

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