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doulasc
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TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:27 am

In 1961 TWA went all Boeing 707 Jets from the USA to Europe.I came across a few photos of TWA Constellations in Europe on Facebook that were after 1961.Did TWA keep some Lockheed Constellations in Europe for intra European routes to feed their Jet Traffic or possibility of a charter flight?
 
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Devilfish
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:59 am

I thought the "TW" in this Connie's registration stood for Trans World as a previous owner...but I was apparently wrong..... :oops: .....

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
TW870
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:44 am

doulasc wrote:
In 1961 TWA went all Boeing 707 Jets from the USA to Europe.I came across a few photos of TWA Constellations in Europe on Facebook that were after 1961.Did TWA keep some Lockheed Constellations in Europe for intra European routes to feed their Jet Traffic or possibility of a charter flight?


Not from what I can see on the schedules that are easiest to access online. This is a schedule from April of 1960, and you can still see the 1649A on flight 904, the milk run through the Azores, Lisbon, and Madrid. Note, though, that it came all the way across the Atlantic with an IDL origination:

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... w60-10.jpg

But here is another timetable from September of 1962, and TW904 is now on a "Boeing Intercontinental Superjet":

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... w62-06.jpg

Note that there was still Constellation service to Europe in 1962, but it was all-cargo, on converted L-1649s that crossed the pond from IDL. Interestingly, they operated the Atlantic non-stop, presumably for high priority cargo that couldn't fit on the 707, or that they couldn't carry on the jet for weight and balance issues. They do leave an asterisk, though, as I am sure on days when loads were heavy or winds were high, the 1649s stopped when across the pond.

Here is a 1964 schedule, and even cargo was on the 707 by this point:

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... w64-04.jpg

Note that from what I can tell, there was never a scheduling practice where passengers flew across the pond on a 707 and then transferred to a Constellation. The way to find out would either be to find the schedules that are not posted online, or to go look at the 707-331 and 707-331B/C delivery dates and figure out if there were any months in 1961 where they were so tight on 707 capacity that they would have needed what 707 capacity they had for USA transcons and transatlantic flights, but would have needed to supplement Constellations on the Mediterranean flying. My guess is that did not happen.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:07 am

doulasc wrote:
In 1961 TWA went all Boeing 707 Jets from the USA to Europe.I came across a few photos of TWA Constellations in Europe on Facebook that were after 1961.Did TWA keep some Lockheed Constellations in Europe for intra European routes to feed their Jet Traffic or possibility of a charter flight?


This TWA Connie was caught at Rome in 1963, with the C-82 packet (visible in both photos) having brought in a replacement #4 engine.
Where it was going I cannot answer.


Presumably this Pan Am DC-6B, one of several stationed in Germany until replaced by 727s ca 1968, is a similar anomaly


I also posted the following quite recently
strfyr51 wrote:
When I came to work at United in 1984, they were preparing to send 727's to Europe to fly LHR to fly within Europe.

And we had a London based Maintenance team....

Tell me about it...
Pan Am had short-range aircraft pottering around Europe for many years before that, and TWA joined the fun for a while too. And all on US registrations.

You could see them at Palma de Mallorca, absolutely anywhere you like in Germany, and dozens of other European cities.

In these two photos, the Iberia and Lufthansa 727s are the clues

Are these at JFK, or LAX? Nope; try Frankfurt and Zurich.

Pick of the bunch; Frankfurt, 1989. No, seriously! :lol:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
TW870
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:17 am

The image of the TWA Constellation above this is clearly of an L1649A freighter with the windows partially blanked out. I forgot that they had the C-82 over there that late! But if they were still on R-3350 power, then they needed the C-82 because you needed to change engines at basically every stop.

Destination of the airplane in that image would have been Milan, then either Zurich or Geneva depending on the day, then either Frankfurt or Paris depending on the day, then New York Idlewild. They would flag stop at Shannon if prior arrangements for cargo service had been made that day, and they also note in the schedule that they might tech stop if necessary when crossing the pond. Transatlantic departures on the Cargo Constellations were reverse red-eyes, with late night departures from Germany or France, and mid-morning arrivals in New York. Block time on Paris-New York non-stop was 13hrs25 minutes - assuming all four engines ran the whole way.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:42 pm

you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
tnair1974
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:38 pm

Until the L-1011 came along, the R-3350 powered 1649 Constellations were best three engine planes built by Lockheed! :duck:
 
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Spacepope
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:48 pm

TW870 wrote:
The image of the TWA Constellation above this is clearly of an L1649A freighter with the windows partially blanked out. I forgot that they had the C-82 over there that late! But if they were still on R-3350 power, then they needed the C-82 because you needed to change engines at basically every stop.

Destination of the airplane in that image would have been Milan, then either Zurich or Geneva depending on the day, then either Frankfurt or Paris depending on the day, then New York Idlewild. They would flag stop at Shannon if prior arrangements for cargo service had been made that day, and they also note in the schedule that they might tech stop if necessary when crossing the pond. Transatlantic departures on the Cargo Constellations were reverse red-eyes, with late night departures from Germany or France, and mid-morning arrivals in New York. Block time on Paris-New York non-stop was 13hrs25 minutes - assuming all four engines ran the whole way.

13 and a half hours on a connie. Wow. What's that convert to in gallons of engine oil consumed?
The last of the famous international playboys
 
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GCT64
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:37 pm

Spacepope wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The image of the TWA Constellation above this is clearly of an L1649A freighter with the windows partially blanked out. I forgot that they had the C-82 over there that late! But if they were still on R-3350 power, then they needed the C-82 because you needed to change engines at basically every stop.

Destination of the airplane in that image would have been Milan, then either Zurich or Geneva depending on the day, then either Frankfurt or Paris depending on the day, then New York Idlewild. They would flag stop at Shannon if prior arrangements for cargo service had been made that day, and they also note in the schedule that they might tech stop if necessary when crossing the pond. Transatlantic departures on the Cargo Constellations were reverse red-eyes, with late night departures from Germany or France, and mid-morning arrivals in New York. Block time on Paris-New York non-stop was 13hrs25 minutes - assuming all four engines ran the whole way.

13 and a half hours on a connie. Wow. What's that convert to in gallons of engine oil consumed?


That was relatively short compared with TWA's Constellation passenger flights from LAX-LHR / SFO-LHR.
We had a thread on this before but, supposedly (Wiki): "On TWA's first London-to-San Francisco flight on October 1–2, 1957, the aircraft stayed aloft for 23 hours and 19 minutes"
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
TW870
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Re: TWA Constellations in Europe early 1960s

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:31 pm

readytotaxi wrote:


Great shots! I especially love the one with the Pan Am DC-6B on the IGS coming in from Berlin (most likely) in the background. The Pan Am blue meatball scheme looked better on the DC-6 than any other airplane I think.

Note also that the L1649A in the photo has the windows partially blanked out, so it is also doing cargo duty by that point. The other poster above mentioned the very long polar non-stops on the 1649 on LAX-London and SFO-Paris (note my screen name, the SFO flight number). Once the 707-331s arrived, they made the very long 1649A flights unnecessary as it was faster to take the jet and stop at IDL. So away went the Connies on both the polars and the east coast TATL flights. Many of the 1649s were converted to cargo within 2.5 years of delivery - as the 707's speed advantage (and engines that actually ran!) just wiped them out.

This thread is cool in that I have not seen discussion of the TWA 1649 cargo Connie operation before. I am guessing they flew a lot of perishable seafood and agricultural products out of places like Italy and France to market in the U.S. - that couldn't wait to be carried by ship. Lots of Italian Americans in New York wanted those blood oranges from Rome in March!

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