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enzo011
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:51 am

We will have to see what happens with the new documents Boeing has given to Congress and the FAA, but I don't think it is only a coincidence that Muilenburg is out just as the new batch is released and they are teased that it will be bad. The problem I see is that this is a second batch that has been released and if they are just as bad as the first messages, where MCAS was mentioned as making simulator sessions interesting, then Boeing has been sitting on them even when Muilenburg went to testify. I think that is why the release mentions the company being more transparent, because up to know they have been trying to hide details from regulators. Luckily he will get his millions though, shame about possible job losses at risk sharing partners because they have to stop production. But who cares about ordinary Joe when corporate entity is safe and too big to fail and able to pay out share dividends during a crises.
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:58 am

Yeah, I'm sure this replacement will certainly bring the fresh perspective needed at Boeing to prevent them inadvertently killing passengers.
 
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sebolino
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:55 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
It's the French declaring that yogurt is a strategic national asset that sets the baseline for inanity. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/291 ... lenge.html


???
I wonder why you're quoting a 2005 article against France written during the French-bashing period triggered by the lies of Georges Bush & Colin Powell (and the lack of judgment of American public).

What does it have to do with the 737Max ?
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:10 am

Agree there is probably some realities that surfaced on various topics / programs and that pushed Muilenburg out.

Everybody responsible got huge bonusses based on stock value. Stock value based on market perceptions rather than factual information. Market perceptions were actively managed and everybody kept cashing.

Image

I feel they have to get this mechanism out. Pay executives high fixed salaries with bonusses based on long term strenght and operation integrity.

No longer a situation where management is financially rewarded for being overly optimistic and selecting short term low cost solutions and shortcuts.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:26 pm

Redsand187 wrote:
The sad thing is, I don't think there are any real Boeing leaders left. Everyone that is there still have drunk the koolaid. Changing the toxic culture at Boeing isn't going to be as easy as getting rid of the corporate bean counters. Everyone in the leadership pipeline at Boeing has been through indoctrination designed by those corporate bean counters.

There's the old saying, it's easier to learn than it is to re-learn. A true change in culture will take a lot of work and may take a generation. It's not even clear you can find anyone not trained in bean counting culture coming out of business school these days.

Redsand187 wrote:
However, Boeing is no longer a business that sells airplanes. They are a business that sells stock, and just so happens to build and sell some airplanes. They aren't the only ones guilty of this, it's the whole corporate culture that has taken over modern business. This is how the race to the bottom started. (At least Boeing has beat airbus in that race :? )

No one cares about building a good product anymore, and frankly, most people aren't willing to pay for a good product either

Problem is that making a new airplane costs at least $15B and no one spots you $15B just because they like your powerpoint pitch. You do need a lot of share holders to get a new airplane project off the ground, or you need to do what Airbus did and have the government fund it all since no one else will.

intrepidflyer wrote:
The thing that sounds the oddest in this whole situation is looking back and thinking it is crazy that a company's best selling product has been taken off the shelves by a regulator for 8 months and the CEO has not met face to face with the head of the regulator until (ok in fairness he started in August) December - 4 months into his FAA tenure?!?! I'd be there once a week for face to face meetings if it would be allowed - listening, understanding, and making the required moves to get my product back on the shelf.

I get it that the CEO can't be everywhere, but I agree, one element that brought DM down was that he didn't seem to sense that he needed to shift gears once the first crash happened and get very hands on with the situation. The news reports when McAllister got fired was that he was an even worse communicator than DM was, so he was of no help. Besides, whomever is president of BCA just does not have the same clout as does the CEO. DM had a lot of power, he just didn't seem to wield it very well.

I wonder if DM will be on a long bike ride thinking "that guy who told me to ground the fleet after the first crash was right after all", or if no such guy existed.
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texl1649
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:39 pm

Well, it sounds like this batch of emails/documents is indeed more of the very negative data points variety. The former chief test pilot bragging about Jedi mind tricking regulators, and taking the 5th about it all isn’t going to go over real well (now works for SWA, so not much Boeing can do about it with him).

https://twitter.com/stevemiletich/statu ... 24704?s=21
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:47 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Well, it sounds like this batch of emails/documents is indeed more of the very negative data points variety. The former chief test pilot bragging about Jedi mind tricking regulators, and taking the 5th about it all isn’t going to go over real well (now works for SWA, so not much Boeing can do about it with him).

https://twitter.com/stevemiletich/statu ... 24704?s=21

It all depends on what are in the released documents/texts. They could be more co-workers vending over a few Grey Gooses or it could be a true smoking gun kind of thing.

One problem for Boeing is that they are running out of people to fire...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Adipocere
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
Problem is that making a new airplane costs at least $15B and no one spots you $15B just because they like your powerpoint pitch. You do need a lot of share holders to get a new airplane project off the ground, or you need to do what Airbus did and have the government fund it all since no one else will.



Isn’t the whole defense side of the business (US government) supposed to spot these kinds of cash for Boeing? It’s not like Boeing is having to spread its hat on kickstarter.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:53 pm

Here’s a quick test to determine if someone resigns or is fired. Whose idea was his departure? If it was the person in question? Then he resigned. Was it his boss(es)? Then he was fired. No matter how you try and dress it up, disguise it, or otherwise obfuscate the situation, that is what it comes down to. And I’m 100% sure that DM didn’t just walk into the office and declare, “I quit! “
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:04 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Problem is that making a new airplane costs at least $15B and no one spots you $15B just because they like your powerpoint pitch. You do need a lot of share holders to get a new airplane project off the ground, or you need to do what Airbus did and have the government fund it all since no one else will.



Isn’t the whole defense side of the business (US government) supposed to spot these kinds of cash for Boeing? It’s not like Boeing is having to spread its hat on kickstarter.


Of course & he knows. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/busi ... trade.html

That is why I can see Wahington taking a more actively role now, they have so much vested in this. Space programs, defense programs, NASA, state to state sales, massive tax cuts, Im-Ex bank, hundreds of thousands jobs, Airbus import taxes, a huge supply chain. Boeing has some responsibilities towards its biggest customer, supporter, defender, authority, financer.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 pm

It is also possible that DM and the board have discussed his dismissal for the last several months, and both agreed that he should do what is best for Boeing - and December events meant leaving. Boeing's phenomenal stock value is interesting. Does a company exist to make money, or to make a product. The EU members have a company dedicated to making airplanes, Chicago Boeing exists to satisfy stockholders. Yet Airbus really has to earn a profit, and Boeing needs to make good planes. The conflict is inherent in capitalism. Adam Smith would not be surprised that Boeing may perform better with better government regulation. He discussed the issue at length. Joe Sutter at Boeing did the same.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:24 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Problem is that making a new airplane costs at least $15B and no one spots you $15B just because they like your powerpoint pitch. You do need a lot of share holders to get a new airplane project off the ground, or you need to do what Airbus did and have the government fund it all since no one else will.

Isn’t the whole defense side of the business (US government) supposed to spot these kinds of cash for Boeing?

If that were true, Boeing would not be carrying the kind of debt it does carry:

At the end of the first quarter, Boeing had $7.7 billion of cash and investments on its balance sheet. That's a pretty good cushion, but it's not a huge amount in relation to the company's size, especially considering that cash flow is under pressure right now.

Furthermore, as of March 31, Boeing had $3.4 billion of debt maturing within the next 12 months, including short-term debt and commercial paper. Management also wants to maintain the dividend, which currently costs about $1.16 billion per quarter. This made it advisable for Boeing to raise some more cash to protect itself against any further setbacks.

Sure enough, Boeing locked down a new $1.5 billion credit line on Monday. The credit line has a scheduled termination date of Oct. 30, but Boeing has the option to extend it for a year. The company then sold $3.5 billion of unsecured debt on Tuesday, with maturity dates ranging from 2022 to 2049. Despite the current turmoil, Boeing was able to place this debt at very low yields, so the additional interest costs will be quite moderate.

With these two moves, Boeing has significantly increased its cash balance and given itself ample liquidity to get through the current rough patch.

Ref: https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/05/ ... inues.aspx

They don't go to Kickstarter or the government, they use traditional commercial financial instruments.

The point is having a healthy stock price improves the valuation of the company and allows them to get finance at better rates.

SEPilot wrote:
Here’s a quick test to determine if someone resigns or is fired. Whose idea was his departure? If it was the person in question? Then he resigned. Was it his boss(es)? Then he was fired. No matter how you try and dress it up, disguise it, or otherwise obfuscate the situation, that is what it comes down to. And I’m 100% sure that DM didn’t just walk into the office and declare, “I quit! “

Yep. He didn't wake up Monday saying he really needed to put more time in to his golf swing, or his garden, or his bicycle training. The board decided he needed to go, and the resignation was the vehicle used to achieve that end.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:35 pm

keesje wrote:

You don't seem to have read the entire article:

“It has not been a very edifying spectacle,” said Nick Cunningham, an aerospace analyst and managing partner at Agency Partners, a London-based consultancy. ”It’s a lot of sound and fury signifying very little.”

In a case decided last June, the W.T.O. found that Airbus had benefited from four decades of improper subsidies to vault past Boeing to become the world’s top jet builder.

The question was raised in the context of why stock price matters.

Maybe we should stick to that rather than using a 2011 article to kick off a whole bunch of arguing about the whole WTO mess.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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NonTechAvLover
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Well, it sounds like this batch of emails/documents is indeed more of the very negative data points variety. The former chief test pilot bragging about Jedi mind tricking regulators, and taking the 5th about it all isn’t going to go over real well (now works for SWA, so not much Boeing can do about it with him).

https://twitter.com/stevemiletich/statu ... 24704?s=21

It all depends on what are in the released documents/texts. They could be more co-workers vending over a few Grey Gooses or it could be a true smoking gun kind of thing.

One problem for Boeing is that they are running out of people to fire...


Is it Grey Gooses or Grey Geese?
 
NonTechAvLover
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:14 pm

keesje wrote:
Agree there is probably some realities that surfaced on various topics / programs and that pushed Muilenburg out.

Everybody responsible got huge bonusses based on stock value. Stock value based on market perceptions rather than factual information. Market perceptions were actively managed and everybody kept cashing.

Image


I feel they have to get this mechanism out. Pay executives high fixed salaries with bonusses based on long term strenght and operation integrity.

No longer a situation where management is financially rewarded for being overly optimistic and selecting short term low cost solutions and shortcuts.


Would love to see the graph juxtaposed next to the DJI graph for the same period. The huge post-2010 bump also corresponds to the miracle of quantitative easing where a gazillion dollars (and then Euros) were pumped into the market every quarter to ensure that excesses of financial capitalism would not destroy a good chunk of civilization. And that money had to go somewhere, even to companies which were not exactly shining, so my guess is Boeing or Airbus could be sculpting airplanes out of cow-dong and shipping them to Airlines for the past 10 years and their stock value would still rise. With no offense intended, I think one would have to be drinking a lot of kool-aid to view the results of the financial market performance of the last ten years as reflective of real value or performance (either at the micro or the macro level) and the current financial situation as one where capital is being rationally placed in pursuit of normal commercial activity.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:22 pm

NonTechAvLover wrote:
Revelation wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Well, it sounds like this batch of emails/documents is indeed more of the very negative data points variety. The former chief test pilot bragging about Jedi mind tricking regulators, and taking the 5th about it all isn’t going to go over real well (now works for SWA, so not much Boeing can do about it with him).

https://twitter.com/stevemiletich/statu ... 24704?s=21

It all depends on what are in the released documents/texts. They could be more co-workers vending over a few Grey Gooses or it could be a true smoking gun kind of thing.

One problem for Boeing is that they are running out of people to fire...


Is it Grey Gooses or Grey Geese?
grey goose vodkas! ;-)

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par13del
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:41 pm

enzo011 wrote:
We will have to see what happens with the new documents Boeing has given to Congress and the FAA, but I don't think it is only a coincidence that Muilenburg is out just as the new batch is released and they are teased that it will be bad. The problem I see is that this is a second batch that has been released and if they are just as bad as the first messages, where MCAS was mentioned as making simulator sessions interesting, then Boeing has been sitting on them even when Muilenburg went to testify. I think that is why the release mentions the company being more transparent, because up to know they have been trying to hide details from regulators. Luckily he will get his millions though, shame about possible job losses at risk sharing partners because they have to stop production. But who cares about ordinary Joe when corporate entity is safe and too big to fail and able to pay out share dividends during a crises.

So what would be in these documents explaining what MCAS does or does not do that all and sundry do not already know, unless these are after the June fix and they are saying that is screwed up, what about the bit flip fix, anything in these documents also after the November submission?

The production of the MAX is halted, everyone says they want it to be safe, unless the documents being released now reveal some other hardware or software flaw these would just be a continuation of the known issue that Boeing is not transparent. It is news and will get lots of traction, on the a/c front and safety I am focused on what is new in relation to the a/c and how it helps them in making it safe.

So far there has been a lot of speculation of additional flaws which caused the production halt but no hard or even leaked details.
 
kayik
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
It all depends on what are in the released documents/texts. They could be more co-workers vending over a few Grey Gooses or it could be a true smoking gun kind of thing.

One problem for Boeing is that they are running out of people to fire...


Children and drunk always tell the truth.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:46 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Isn’t the whole defense side of the business (US government) supposed to spot these kinds of cash for Boeing? It’s not like Boeing is having to spread its hat on kickstarter.

If that were the case they would not have to deliver KC-46, P8's, F-18's, new F-15's, AH-64's, Chinooks and all the other defense equipment they sell, just collect the money and deliver nothing.
We do have to wonder why they are being raked over the coals for the KC-46, since they have the government in their pocket.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
If that were true, Boeing would not be carrying the kind of debt it does carry:



Boeing has spend 50 billion USD on share buy backs, burning cash and capital. Share buy backs are only allowed since the Reagan area.
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:24 pm

The short answer is that Boeing needs a substantially new board, and then a new leadership team picked by that board. But, the board won't go until the shareholders (including institutional ones) demand it, and that won't happen until the stock price loses quite a bit more value, which could take six months to a year at least, as further write-downs and customer defections take place. A short term caretaker CEO makes some sense in the context of the current storms the company is embroiled in, but I do hope some critical folks see the writing on the wall as to critical changes and investments needed over the next year to 36 months. (Muilenburg, Greg Smith, Caret and Duberstein are the biggest individual shareholders though). Finally, keep in mind, The Vanguard Group, T Rowe Price, Newport Trust, Blackrock, and a bunch of other investment funds probably have the ear of the board more than any politician/regulator/analyst/internet poster.

https://money.cnn.com/quote/shareholder ... titutional

There's nothing wrong with share buybacks in principle (it avoids some double taxation on dividends), it's the gross value of buybacks, and dividends vs. investments in new products that has been disastrous. Rail against capitalism/corporate structure all you want guys and gals, but it's the retiree investments (writ large, not Boeing retirees) that drive the board membership/direction.
 
intrepidflyer
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
Redsand187 wrote:
The sad thing is, I don't think there are any real Boeing leaders left. Everyone that is there still have drunk the koolaid. Changing the toxic culture at Boeing isn't going to be as easy as getting rid of the corporate bean counters. Everyone in the leadership pipeline at Boeing has been through indoctrination designed by those corporate bean counters.

There's the old saying, it's easier to learn than it is to re-learn. A true change in culture will take a lot of work and may take a generation. It's not even clear you can find anyone not trained in bean counting culture coming out of business school these days.

Redsand187 wrote:
However, Boeing is no longer a business that sells airplanes. They are a business that sells stock, and just so happens to build and sell some airplanes. They aren't the only ones guilty of this, it's the whole corporate culture that has taken over modern business. This is how the race to the bottom started. (At least Boeing has beat airbus in that race :? )

No one cares about building a good product anymore, and frankly, most people aren't willing to pay for a good product either

Problem is that making a new airplane costs at least $15B and no one spots you $15B just because they like your powerpoint pitch. You do need a lot of share holders to get a new airplane project off the ground, or you need to do what Airbus did and have the government fund it all since no one else will.

intrepidflyer wrote:
The thing that sounds the oddest in this whole situation is looking back and thinking it is crazy that a company's best selling product has been taken off the shelves by a regulator for 8 months and the CEO has not met face to face with the head of the regulator until (ok in fairness he started in August) December - 4 months into his FAA tenure?!?! I'd be there once a week for face to face meetings if it would be allowed - listening, understanding, and making the required moves to get my product back on the shelf.

I get it that the CEO can't be everywhere, but I agree, one element that brought DM down was that he didn't seem to sense that he needed to shift gears once the first crash happened and get very hands on with the situation. The news reports when McAllister got fired was that he was an even worse communicator than DM was, so he was of no help. Besides, whomever is president of BCA just does not have the same clout as does the CEO. DM had a lot of power, he just didn't seem to wield it very well.

I wonder if DM will be on a long bike ride thinking "that guy who told me to ground the fleet after the first crash was right after all", or if no such guy existed.


Almost like head-in-the-sand territory hoping it'll go away.

A dramatisation of a recent conversation not based in fact:

<Board member> So, when you met Mr Dickson and you discussed our preferred straategy for RTS in U.S.A at least as end of '19, what did he say? Are they're going to go for that?
<DM> Erm.....
<Board member> Did you get the impression they were going to play ball?
<DM> Well...
<Board member> You have spoken to the guy right?
<DM> Well. The guy from BCA has..
<DM> That spacecraft project has been keeping me busy
<Board members> *jaws drops to floor*
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:30 pm

At least one can agree that the new CEO has a huge challenge ahead of him. The whole company culture seems quite toxic.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:09 pm

aden23 wrote:
Great news, now let the criminal proceedings begin! Hopefully we can see Muilenberg behind bars by next Christmas.

and on what charges? Was Muilenburg's name on ANY of the Airworthiness Documents? I'd bet NOT! The Ethiopian airplane had a broken AOA on the Capitan's side was there any indication that it wasn't working? NO as there was no AOA indication installed, Mullenburg was only complicit in that it was an option rather than STD equipment, He cannot be held accountable for anything other than that. who was head of the 737 program at that time? He or She was directly complicit and should be held accountable, But? We don't even know their Name. The Engineers who designed that Lousy system. Who were they? They should go to Jail but we'll Never know their names either and? they'll NEVER go to jail. Mullenburg should be forced out because He was ultimately in charge as President and CEO. That HE should leave is fitting. Go to jail? I don't think so..
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:30 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The short answer is that Boeing needs a substantially new board, and then a new leadership team picked by that board. But, the board won't go until the shareholders (including institutional ones) demand it, and that won't happen until the stock price loses quite a bit more value, which could take six months to a year at least, as further write-downs and customer defections take place. A short term caretaker CEO makes some sense in the context of the current storms the company is embroiled in, but I do hope some critical folks see the writing on the wall as to critical changes and investments needed over the next year to 36 months. (Muilenburg, Greg Smith, Caret and Duberstein are the biggest individual shareholders though). Finally, keep in mind, The Vanguard Group, T Rowe Price, Newport Trust, Blackrock, and a bunch of other investment funds probably have the ear of the board more than any politician/regulator/analyst/internet poster.

https://money.cnn.com/quote/shareholder ... titutional

There's nothing wrong with share buybacks in principle (it avoids some double taxation on dividends), it's the gross value of buybacks, and dividends vs. investments in new products that has been disastrous. Rail against capitalism/corporate structure all you want guys and gals, but it's the retiree investments (writ large, not Boeing retirees) that drive the board membership/direction.


Stock buy backs are good for share value. Executives are largely paid on share value based bonusses. So they were helping themselves more than anything else by deciding the company he leads buying back stock.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomb ... -last-year
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
TaromA380
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:27 pm

Just as an anecdote, the 737 Max Wiki page at the moment we speak, mentions

"On December 23, Boeing fired its CEO, Dennis Muilenburg, saying the move was needed to restore confidence in the company."
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:59 pm

NonTechAvLover wrote:
keesje wrote:
Agree there is probably some realities that surfaced on various topics / programs and that pushed Muilenburg out.

Everybody responsible got huge bonusses based on stock value. Stock value based on market perceptions rather than factual information. Market perceptions were actively managed and everybody kept cashing.

Image


I feel they have to get this mechanism out. Pay executives high fixed salaries with bonusses based on long term strenght and operation integrity.

No longer a situation where management is financially rewarded for being overly optimistic and selecting short term low cost solutions and shortcuts.


Would love to see the graph juxtaposed next to the DJI graph for the same period. The huge post-2010 bump also corresponds to the miracle of quantitative easing where a gazillion dollars (and then Euros) were pumped into the market every quarter to ensure that excesses of financial capitalism would not destroy a good chunk of civilization. And that money had to go somewhere, even to companies which were not exactly shining, so my guess is Boeing or Airbus could be sculpting airplanes out of cow-dong and shipping them to Airlines for the past 10 years and their stock value would still rise. With no offense intended, I think one would have to be drinking a lot of kool-aid to view the results of the financial market performance of the last ten years as reflective of real value or performance (either at the micro or the macro level) and the current financial situation as one where capital is being rationally placed in pursuit of normal commercial activity.


Dow Jones Index 12/24/19 28,515 dow jones 12/31/09 10,428 273%
Boeing 12/24/19 333 12/31/09 55.00 605%
S&P 500 3223.38 1,123.58 287%

The DJIA is the 30 blue chip stocks selected for the index. The index changes members over time and there is an adjustment factor. Anyway Boeing has more than twice the valuation rise of the Dow, no small feat. The S&P 500 (largest 500 stocks) has a similar rise as the Dow.

Basically, the market feels its future rate of return with Boeing per unit invested today at today's price is as good as the Dow and S&P 500, but over the last decade an investment in Boeing had a return nearly double what was expected in 2010. Boeing was printing money right up to the time of the 1st MAX crash. The market feels like it will return to printing money at some point in the near future.

With all its warts, the market still likes Boeing, a lot. Boeing does need to get quality and regulatory compliance up to the expected levels in aircraft and aviation.

With the Starliner two of the recent tests were screwed up by dumb errors not being checked systematically. A time clock not set properly caused the wrong orbit. An improperly installed pin caused a parachute failure. Either one of these shouldn't happen, both happening shows a systematic sloppiness that has a potential for disaster.

The KC-46 FOD issue is similar, once caught with FOD it is hard to believe that it happened AGAIN, but it did 2 more times. NO GOOD.

Boeing is in markets where 'verbatim compliance' should be happening, where screwups are rare and fully investigated and corrected so the screwup doesn't repeat. The best quality comes from the working responsible for doing it right, with a light oversight to confirm. But if errors are occurring, the process is investigated fully and corrected. The mind numbing situation where there are 4 inspectors behind every worker doesn't add quality, it actually causes problems.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:00 am

strfyr51 wrote:
aden23 wrote:
Great news, now let the criminal proceedings begin! Hopefully we can see Muilenberg behind bars by next Christmas.

and on what charges? Was Muilenburg's name on ANY of the Airworthiness Documents? I'd bet NOT! The Ethiopian airplane had a broken AOA on the Capitan's side was there any indication that it wasn't working? NO as there was no AOA indication installed, Mullenburg was only complicit in that it was an option rather than STD equipment, He cannot be held accountable for anything other than that. who was head of the 737 program at that time? He or She was directly complicit and should be held accountable, But? We don't even know their Name. The Engineers who designed that Lousy system. Who were they? They should go to Jail but we'll Never know their names either and? they'll NEVER go to jail. Mullenburg should be forced out because He was ultimately in charge as President and CEO. That HE should leave is fitting. Go to jail? I don't think so..


The AoA disagree indicator was not an option. It was standard equipment. Faulty software was the reason it did not display.. Boeing did know about the fault. Boeing decided to not tell anybody about, nether customers nor the FAA, and fix it with a later software update.
 
travelhound
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:18 am

Revelation Wrote:

SEPilot wrote:
Here’s a quick test to determine if someone resigns or is fired. Whose idea was his departure? If it was the person in question? Then he resigned. Was it his boss(es)? Then he was fired. No matter how you try and dress it up, disguise it, or otherwise obfuscate the situation, that is what it comes down to. And I’m 100% sure that DM didn’t just walk into the office and declare, “I quit! “

Yep. He didn't wake up Monday saying he really needed to put more time in to his golf swing, or his garden, or his bicycle training. The board decided he needed to go, and the resignation was the vehicle used to achieve that end.[/quote]

I suspect Dennis Muilenburg and the board would have discussed an exit strategy on multiple occasions. In a crisis situation it is MBA 101 management strategy for the CEO to ultimately exit their position. For the board and the CEO the question would have revolved around when and not if.
 
sadiqutp
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:15 am

travelhound wrote:

I suspect Dennis Muilenburg and the board would have discussed an exit strategy on multiple occasions. In a crisis situation it is MBA 101 management strategy for the CEO to ultimately exit their position. For the board and the CEO the question would have revolved around when and not if.



Boeing's fired CEO could walk away with a $60 million golden parachute

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/24/tech ... index.html

I think they timed his departure so that he carries as much blame as possible with him. Announce the suspension of 737 max manufacturing, leave, and your outrageous compensation will be released!
 
Ugly51
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:39 pm

Two words : Absolutely frightening..
 
Adipocere
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:25 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
Two words : Absolutely frightening..


Which part - the Muilenburg saga or that a GE accountant is now in charge??
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:33 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
If that were true, Boeing would not be carrying the kind of debt it does carry:

Boeing has spend 50 billion USD on share buy backs, burning cash and capital.

Still, if the government was ready to spot them money as claimed they would have no debt and could buy back even more shares.

travelhound wrote:
Revelation wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Here’s a quick test to determine if someone resigns or is fired. Whose idea was his departure? If it was the person in question? Then he resigned. Was it his boss(es)? Then he was fired. No matter how you try and dress it up, disguise it, or otherwise obfuscate the situation, that is what it comes down to. And I’m 100% sure that DM didn’t just walk into the office and declare, “I quit! “

Yep. He didn't wake up Monday saying he really needed to put more time in to his golf swing, or his garden, or his bicycle training. The board decided he needed to go, and the resignation was the vehicle used to achieve that end.

I suspect Dennis Muilenburg and the board would have discussed an exit strategy on multiple occasions. In a crisis situation it is MBA 101 management strategy for the CEO to ultimately exit their position. For the board and the CEO the question would have revolved around when and not if.

I agree. I've been saying DM didn't own the problems that occurred when MAX was created but he did own the problems once the first MAX crashed. I have been thinking for months now that he would at best survive RTS and a grace period thereafter but no longer because he was so tarnished by his handling of the MAX situation. His Senate testimony and the breakdown of Boeing's relationship with the FAA meant he had to go sooner rather than later. As above, the problem for Boeing remains that they have no big name left to fire. Boeing CEO gone. BCA CEO gone. 737 Chief Engineer gone. Usually the CEO goes after the crisis is resolved so you can draw a line under it and move on. Now we have the change in the midst of the crisis. Calhoun will only last 3 years at best since he his 62 and Boeing CEOs must leave at 65. Snarky people will suggest it will take 3 years for MAX to RTS but chances are strong it will RTS in a few months. It'd be nice if Calhoun just stays long enough to get through the crisis and find a successor who can run the company for a longer period of time, but there's all those nice pay checks, bonuses and stock grants he'd be turning down...

texl1649 wrote:
Muilenburg, Greg Smith, Caret and Duberstein are the biggest individual shareholders though

That's a sobering fact, that alone makes these people staggeringly wealthy.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Bingo, thanks for putting it like this. People should find pride to build a product, be proud to deliver a good product to the customer. That's the culture that has to be brought back at every level of the company. First, deliver a good product, then the profit will follow, not the other way around. The business culture of the next quarterly is the most important and I will be gone in 4 years anyway as a CEO, so I want to get my bonus and live somewhere on my own tropical island, is bizarre. Not good for shareholder's value in the end.
That's why I suggested it should be an engineer to head the company, not a spreadsheet guy. CEO should focus on the product, not at the result of a spreadsheet.


Unfortunately, under the latest flavor of the month, vulture capitalism, manufacturers like Boeing are at a huge disadvantage. Many of their investments won’t pay out in the next year, or worse, the next quarter. It takes a vision, patience, and an understanding of the industry to shepherd an investment to fruition. In aerospace that takes 5 to 20 years. Wall Street can’t fathom that. CEOs continue to pander to the “investment class” exclusively. Once upon a time a US corporation was required to balance shareholders with employees along with customers and communities they are in, and serve.

Up until about 1975 the average period of stock holding was 7+ years. Today it’s well under 7 months. Much less the nanosecond trading that goes on that brings ZERO value to the overall market. Unless Boeing fundamentally changes (it won’t) to its vision and approach with investors the deck is stacked against it long term. Boeing is only going to continue down its glide path it’s on otherwise. I hope I’m wrong and the board brings in a transformational CEO with the backing and patience required, but I highly doubt it. Follow the money....it only cares about next quarter. For now at least.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:16 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
Unfortunately, under the latest flavor of the month, vulture capitalism, manufacturers like Boeing are at a huge disadvantage. Many of their investments won’t pay out in the next year, or worse, the next quarter. It takes a vision, patience, and an understanding of the industry to shepherd an investment to fruition. In aerospace that takes 5 to 20 years. Wall Street can’t fathom that. CEOs continue to pander to the “investment class” exclusively. Once upon a time a US corporation was required to balance shareholders with employees along with customers and communities they are in, and serve.

Up until about 1975 the average period of stock holding was 7+ years. Today it’s well under 7 months. Much less the nanosecond trading that goes on that brings ZERO value to the overall market. Unless Boeing fundamentally changes (it won’t) to its vision and approach with investors the deck is stacked against it long term. Boeing is only going to continue down its glide path it’s on otherwise. I hope I’m wrong and the board brings in a transformational CEO with the backing and patience required, but I highly doubt it. Follow the money....it only cares about next quarter. For now at least.

It's going to take a lot more than the MAX crisis to "fix" capitalism. The GFC of 2008 gives you the playbook. If the system comes close to breakdown the rules of the game will be rewritten, the fat cats will be made whole, the cannon fodder will take the hit. Till then, let the good times roll!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:58 pm

Elite level aviation segregation, keeps one from production line and technological realities.

Icaruian thought obviously continues to fly at Boeing, when one learns public thought is already being manipulated and shaped by PR prior to having a MAX airworthy to fly.

Scary how distant some in industry are. Wrong choices in aviation can kill hundred at a time. Boeing lets get this right soon if the MAX is to have a future, much less Boeing.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:36 pm

For reasons discussed by San Diego many have suggested a very small transaction cost on the sale of stocks, something like .01 percent of the sales price. It would have almost zero affect on longer term owners. I think that works out to $100K on a sale of $1billion. Doing that 10-20 times a day would put the kabash on very short term computer aided sales. A Good Thing.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:07 pm

blueflyer wrote:
I'm a little bit surprised he was fired now. After sticking with him this long, I expected the board to keep him around until the Max was back in the air, then send him into retirement.

That was my impression as well. Maybe announce that he would step down once the Max was recertified and that Calhoun would be his successor. I kinda felt that when he was stripped of the chairman title, the writing was on the wall. I knew he wouldn't survive past next year, but I thought he'd stay on until next year. I guess it didn't help that the Starliner had issues, that the Pegasus continues to have problems, and that the 737NGs have issues...too many things happening at once.

I had the chance to meet him. A lot of people at Boeing were glad to see one of their own rise up the ranks and lead the company instead of having someone brought over from a different company. But earlier in the summer, I remember reading an article about how having a person with dual roles (Chairman AND CEO) does more harm than good for the company, and it seems Boeing has caught on, which is why they've named Calhoun as CEO and had him relinquish the Chairman title to Kellner. I think it will be a LONG time before the board considers having a person be both roles again.

The thing to note here, however, is that insiders are not sure Calhoun is the right man for the job either, and something tells me he won't stay long as CEO either, especially if delays continue with the Max or further issues arise with other products.

A final thought: a lot of people are overjoyed with Muilenburg's departure, but it's worth noting that the Max was approved under McNerney's leadership so any issues the Max had were already involved by the time Muilenburg took over (and if we're gonna dive deeper, Muilneburg headed the BDS branch while Ray Conner and, later, Kevin McAllister led the BCA branch so he wouldn't have known all the details of the program line Conner and McAllister would). The buck ultimately stops with the CEO, but let's not forget that there were many more people involved with the Max and had more oversight of its development than others. If criminal proceedings were ever to be initiated, it's only fair to corral all these folks.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:24 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
That was my impression as well. Maybe announce that he would step down once the Max was recertified and that Calhoun would be his successor. I kinda felt that when he was stripped of the chairman title, the writing was on the wall. I knew he wouldn't survive past next year, but I thought he'd stay on until next year. I guess it didn't help that the Starliner had issues, that the Pegasus continues to have problems, and that the 737NGs have issues...too many things happening at once.

I had the chance to meet him. A lot of people at Boeing were glad to see one of their own rise up the ranks and lead the company instead of having someone brought over from a different company. But earlier in the summer, I remember reading an article about how having a person with dual roles (Chairman AND CEO) does more harm than good for the company, and it seems Boeing has caught on, which is why they've named Calhoun as CEO and had him relinquish the Chairman title to Kellner. I think it will be a LONG time before the board considers having a person be both roles again.

The thing to note here, however, is that insiders are not sure Calhoun is the right man for the job either, and something tells me he won't stay long as CEO either, especially if delays continue with the Max or further issues arise with other products.

A final thought: a lot of people are overjoyed with Muilenburg's departure, but it's worth noting that the Max was approved under McNerney's leadership so any issues the Max had were already involved by the time Muilenburg took over (and if we're gonna dive deeper, Muilneburg headed the BDS branch while Ray Conner and, later, Kevin McAllister led the BCA branch so he wouldn't have known all the details of the program line Conner and McAllister would). The buck ultimately stops with the CEO, but let's not forget that there were many more people involved with the Max and had more oversight of its development than others. If criminal proceedings were ever to be initiated, it's only fair to corral all these folks.

DM rebuked Congressmen calling for his resignation by saying he was not a quitter, and he offered to take no bonus compensation in 2020 right after his first testimony session. It's pretty clear he didn't expect to "get resigned" this year, or IMO any time soon. He was angling to take some damage for the MAX crisis but trying to stay in the game for the long haul, IMO. Personally I felt for quite a while that they would whack him after the MAX had returned to service to try to draw a line under the whole crisis, but events escalated. It's not clear to anyone what Calhoun adds to the mix, nor for that matter Stan Deal. Both have major career changes occurring right under the spotlight. I'm not very optimistic, the challenges are huge.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
That was my impression as well. Maybe announce that he would step down once the Max was recertified and that Calhoun would be his successor. I kinda felt that when he was stripped of the chairman title, the writing was on the wall. I knew he wouldn't survive past next year, but I thought he'd stay on until next year. I guess it didn't help that the Starliner had issues, that the Pegasus continues to have problems, and that the 737NGs have issues...too many things happening at once.

I had the chance to meet him. A lot of people at Boeing were glad to see one of their own rise up the ranks and lead the company instead of having someone brought over from a different company. But earlier in the summer, I remember reading an article about how having a person with dual roles (Chairman AND CEO) does more harm than good for the company, and it seems Boeing has caught on, which is why they've named Calhoun as CEO and had him relinquish the Chairman title to Kellner. I think it will be a LONG time before the board considers having a person be both roles again.

The thing to note here, however, is that insiders are not sure Calhoun is the right man for the job either, and something tells me he won't stay long as CEO either, especially if delays continue with the Max or further issues arise with other products.

A final thought: a lot of people are overjoyed with Muilenburg's departure, but it's worth noting that the Max was approved under McNerney's leadership so any issues the Max had were already involved by the time Muilenburg took over (and if we're gonna dive deeper, Muilneburg headed the BDS branch while Ray Conner and, later, Kevin McAllister led the BCA branch so he wouldn't have known all the details of the program line Conner and McAllister would). The buck ultimately stops with the CEO, but let's not forget that there were many more people involved with the Max and had more oversight of its development than others. If criminal proceedings were ever to be initiated, it's only fair to corral all these folks.

DM rebuked Congressmen calling for his resignation by saying he was not a quitter, and he offered to take no bonus compensation in 2020 right after his first testimony session. It's pretty clear he didn't expect to "get resigned" this year, or IMO any time soon. He was angling to take some damage for the MAX crisis but trying to stay in the game for the long haul, IMO. Personally I felt for quite a while that they would whack him after the MAX had returned to service to try to draw a line under the whole crisis, but events escalated. It's not clear to anyone what Calhoun adds to the mix, nor for that matter Stan Deal. Both have major career changes occurring right under the spotlight. I'm not very optimistic, the challenges are huge.

I have always expected DM to be gone as soon as the MAX crisis was stabilized (i.e MAX flying again). The board had to send a strong signal to Wall Street to justify the grounding extension into 2020 by appointing new leadership and firming confidence. Wall Street does not do well with leadership vacuum which DM showed with multiple missed self imposed deadlines.

Keep monitoring and expect to see a spectacle of musical chairs in the board for the next two years. It’s going to be a long game and Boeing have no choice but to overhaul the entire leadership to restore full confidence. It is unfortunate it took so many lives and will probably hurt many careers both for employees and suppliers along the way.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:37 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
For reasons discussed by San Diego many have suggested a very small transaction cost on the sale of stocks, something like .01 percent of the sales price. It would have almost zero affect on longer term owners. I think that works out to $100K on a sale of $1billion. Doing that 10-20 times a day would put the kabash on very short term computer aided sales. A Good Thing.

How much taxes do you want to collect on that, until you define the governments take it ain't going to happen.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:44 pm

ubeema wrote:
I have always expected DM to be gone as soon as the MAX crisis was stabilized (i.e MAX flying again). The board had to send a strong signal to Wall Street to justify the grounding extension into 2020 by appointing new leadership and firming confidence. Wall Street does not do well with leadership vacuum which DM showed with multiple missed self imposed deadlines.

Keep monitoring and expect to see a spectacle of musical chairs in the board for the next two years. It’s going to be a long game and Boeing have no choice but to overhaul the entire leadership to restore full confidence. It is unfortunate it took so many lives and will probably hurt many careers both for employees and suppliers along the way.

What did the stock price do when the production halt was announced, and again when DM was fired?
The Board is doing more damage control to prop up the stock versus sending signals about the grounding going into 2020. It may very well be that the technical issues with the MAX are completed, even if additional hardware changes are mandated into the line and retrofitted, so what they need at the helm now is another bean counter who will find some creative ways to maintain and even increase value, would not be shocked if Boeing tries to use this crisis to get RLI from congress in the form of it providing them with additional oversight, would fee up Boeing money for more share but back and wealth redistribution.
 
travelhound
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:57 pm

It could be the case even though the 737MAX is not certified, the road map for certification is.

As such it may be easier to create a "responsible Boeing" narrative around the new CEO as the driver of the return to service.

I agree with other comments about the role of
Muilenburg's and MCAS. From my understanding the architecture and philosophy behind the system was set very early in the piece (2014). The assumptions made in 2014 were flawed and consequently the actual certification process in 2017.

This was an oversight issue not only of Boeing, but Collins, the contractor responsible for programming the system and the FAA who had a similar degree of responsibility as the certifying body.

This will end up being text book stuff for latter generations to learn from. I don't think Muilenburg's name will be as prominent (unless it's a crisis management textbook) as it is now. He will be rightly seen as just one of multiple actors in this affair.
 
fabian9
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:17 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
The Engineers who designed that Lousy system. Who were they? They should go to Jail but we'll Never know their names either and? they'll NEVER go to jail.


Unless those ”lousy engineers” acted with intent to kill somebody, the buck stops with the chief engineer who holds the delegation from the FAA. See for example the (unsuccessful) criminal law suit against Concorde’s chief engineer.

I don’t know any engineer who goes to work wanting to do a bad job, and I’m sure Boeing engineers are some of the best around. The organisation must ensure that programme timescales and engineering scrutiny are balanced - it seems DM was unable to ensure this happens in his company.
 
aden23
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:55 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
aden23 wrote:
Great news, now let the criminal proceedings begin! Hopefully we can see Muilenberg behind bars by next Christmas.

and on what charges?


On charges of involuntary manslaughter and/or criminal negligence.

“The bottom line is that the 737 MAX is safe."
-Dennis Muilenberg, November 2018

The *real* bottom line is that the 737 MAX was unfit to fly, but Muilenberg was too cowardly and too greedy to confront his board and shareholders by calling for the grounding of the MAX after Lion Air.

Then, another 157 lives are lost, and Dennis STILL doesn’t call for a grounding.

Now, he’s going to walk away with $60,000,000? That doesn’t sit well with me.

If he had called for a grounding, he still would have lost his job eventually anyway, but his payout would have been much less than $60M due to stock crash, so he had incentive to keep MAX in the air for his own personal gain.

Sounds like an easy case to me and one that American jurors will take little sympathy with.

The man earned jail time, so it’s time he serves it.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:57 pm

fabian9 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
The Engineers who designed that Lousy system. Who were they? They should go to Jail but we'll Never know their names either and? they'll NEVER go to jail.


Unless those ”lousy engineers” acted with intent to kill somebody, the buck stops with the chief engineer who holds the delegation from the FAA. See for example the (unsuccessful) criminal law suit against Concorde’s chief engineer.

I don’t know any engineer who goes to work wanting to do a bad job, and I’m sure Boeing engineers are some of the best around. The organisation must ensure that programme timescales and engineering scrutiny are balanced - it seems DM was unable to ensure this happens in his company.


There are two possibilities for such a bad design. You do it with open eyes to cut time or yield to pressure, or you are incompetent. Take your pick.
 
travelhound
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Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:59 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
fabian9 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
The Engineers who designed that Lousy system. Who were they? They should go to Jail but we'll Never know their names either and? they'll NEVER go to jail.


Unless those ”lousy engineers” acted with intent to kill somebody, the buck stops with the chief engineer who holds the delegation from the FAA. See for example the (unsuccessful) criminal law suit against Concorde’s chief engineer.

I don’t know any engineer who goes to work wanting to do a bad job, and I’m sure Boeing engineers are some of the best around. The organisation must ensure that programme timescales and engineering scrutiny are balanced - it seems DM was unable to ensure this happens in his company.


There are two possibilities for such a bad design. You do it with open eyes to cut time or yield to pressure, or you are incompetent. Take your pick.


As per the LionAir final report the 737MAX was certified to the than current standards. If you are calling the Boeing / Collins engineers (plural) incompetent that's a lot of people to place blame on.

As fabion9 stated, I don't think these engineers come to work to do a sub-par job. If they did, Boeing's problems wouldn't be limited to MCAS. I think a balanced and somewhat less emotive analysis would suggest in certain conditions the design of the MCAS system had unintended consequences.

If you look at incident reports from the last ten years you will find many instances where pilots have lost control of an aircraft due to design flaws within an aircraft systems.

Most recent events include:

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 82.article

https://www.heraldnet.com/nation-world/ ... -problems/

https://www.flightglobal.com/a330-incid ... 95.article

https://crankyflier.com/2019/03/25/did- ... sk-cranky/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-502079.html

The FAA quantitative analysis report that there would likely be 15 accidents of the 737MAX over the in service lifespan of the aircraft was based upon 1% of airlines not following airworthy directives from Boeing / FAA and an in service population of approximately 5000 aircraft.

Even though the headline report of fifteen accidents got the headlines, the report / analysis of MCAS suggests the safety of the aircraft was being scrutinised within various levels of Boeing and the FAA at that time. If I remember correctly, Boeing were also proposing a solution to fix (enhance - if I want to use neutral / positive wording) the MCAS system suggesting there was a level of understanding of the issues. This suggests competency within Boeing and the FAA.

The two accidents that resulted in the loss of lives are tragic. Nothing is ever going to remove that fact. Let's not let the wholesale blaming of innocent people who go to work every day to ensure we remain safe when we fly be an unintended consequence of these unfortunate events.

We, just like the executives who run these companies have just as much responsibility to respond appropriately when events like this occur.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:45 am

travelhound wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
fabian9 wrote:

Unless those ”lousy engineers” acted with intent to kill somebody, the buck stops with the chief engineer who holds the delegation from the FAA. See for example the (unsuccessful) criminal law suit against Concorde’s chief engineer.

I don’t know any engineer who goes to work wanting to do a bad job, and I’m sure Boeing engineers are some of the best around. The organisation must ensure that programme timescales and engineering scrutiny are balanced - it seems DM was unable to ensure this happens in his company.


There are two possibilities for such a bad design. You do it with open eyes to cut time or yield to pressure, or you are incompetent. Take your pick.


As per the LionAir final report the 737MAX was certified to the than current standards. If you are calling the Boeing / Collins engineers (plural) incompetent that's a lot of people to place blame on.

As fabion9 stated, I don't think these engineers come to work to do a sub-par job. If they did, Boeing's problems wouldn't be limited to MCAS. I think a balanced and somewhat less emotive analysis would suggest in certain conditions the design of the MCAS system had unintended consequences.

If you look at incident reports from the last ten years you will find many instances where pilots have lost control of an aircraft due to design flaws within an aircraft systems.

Most recent events include:

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 82.article

https://www.heraldnet.com/nation-world/ ... -problems/

https://www.flightglobal.com/a330-incid ... 95.article

https://crankyflier.com/2019/03/25/did- ... sk-cranky/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-502079.html

The FAA quantitative analysis report that there would likely be 15 accidents of the 737MAX over the in service lifespan of the aircraft was based upon 1% of airlines not following airworthy directives from Boeing / FAA and an in service population of approximately 5000 aircraft.

Even though the headline report of fifteen accidents got the headlines, the report / analysis of MCAS suggests the safety of the aircraft was being scrutinised within various levels of Boeing and the FAA at that time. If I remember correctly, Boeing were also proposing a solution to fix (enhance - if I want to use neutral / positive wording) the MCAS system suggesting there was a level of understanding of the issues. This suggests competency within Boeing and the FAA.

The two accidents that resulted in the loss of lives are tragic. Nothing is ever going to remove that fact. Let's not let the wholesale blaming of innocent people who go to work every day to ensure we remain safe when we fly be an unintended consequence of these unfortunate events.

We, just like the executives who run these companies have just as much responsibility to respond appropriately when events like this occur.


When you still want to keep up, that MCAS was designed to current standards, you have to ask yourself perhaps whose standards. Boeings standards?
Where do you find that standard? The NSTB does not agree with that standard.

Boeing did never look at the danger a malfunctioning MCAS would pose. According to the report they put it in the wrong danger category. A real sign of competent engineering I suppose.

Regarding the list you are producing, you are running a false equivalent. You have to go back to the DC10 or Comet to find a similar serious situation, with a new frame dropping out of the sky with a few month between them.

If anything is shown about the reports about the collusion between Boeing and the FAA, that comes to the forefront is the glaring incompetence of the FAA.
After the first crash, the FAA safety experts argued to ground the frame, arguing that further accident were to be expected.. Management in collusion with Boeing management overruled the FAA safety experts.

And now poster here want to talk about the fine engineers at Boeing. Again they have either done a bad job with open eyes or are incompetent.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:44 am

keesje wrote:
Agree there is probably some realities that surfaced on various topics / programs and that pushed Muilenburg out.

Everybody responsible got huge bonusses based on stock value. Stock value based on market perceptions rather than factual information. Market perceptions were actively managed and everybody kept cashing.

Image

I feel they have to get this mechanism out. Pay executives high fixed salaries with bonusses based on long term strenght and operation integrity.

No longer a situation where management is financially rewarded for being overly optimistic and selecting short term low cost solutions and shortcuts.




I believe you are 100% right...
bonuses on stock value is insane and I don't know how companies have allowed this to go on for so long.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 717
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Boeing CEO resigns, David Calhoun named President and CEO

Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:57 am

grbauc wrote:
bonuses on stock value is insane and I don't know how companies have allowed this to go on for so long.


With that and the potential golden handshake (has that been rescinded / refused yet?) I guess "Boeing will make a rich man richer". Perhaps they can make a slogan out of it?
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