Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
UA857
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:53 pm

How come many UA 747-400s were sold off between 2001-2005? Here are the regs
N172UA
N176UA
N183UA
N184UA
N185UA
N186UA
N188UA
N189UA
N190UA
N191UA
N192UA
N108UA
N109UA
Anyone know why 13 airframs were sold off?
 
UA444
Posts: 2996
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:01 pm

They were bankruptcy lease rejections
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:13 pm

N190UA was stored after only ten years of service. Today she is in Mahan Air storage.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14468
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:20 pm

UA444 wrote:
They were bankruptcy lease rejections


Correct. UA also rejected a couple of 763ER leases (Ships 6745 and 6750) and several 772 leases around the same time. There were some resultant route cuts; ORD-EZE is the one that springs to mind but I'm certain there were others.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
avek00
Posts: 3251
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:06 pm

UA857 wrote:
How come many UA 747-400s were sold off between 2001-2005? Here are the regs
N172UA
N176UA
N183UA
N184UA
N185UA
N186UA
N188UA
N189UA
N190UA
N191UA
N192UA
N108UA
N109UA
Anyone know why 13 airframs were sold off?


Longer answer:

During the BK restructuring, UA aimed to ditch its entire Boeing 747 fleet, which even at that time was costly to maintain and an inflexible platform for evolving longhaul market trends. Key to this goal was maintaining (and eventually expanding) the 777 fleet at reduced lease rates, and it's here UA ran into problems. The lessors balked at taking big haircuts on the 777 leases because the market demand for 777s was very strong at the time. As lessors called United's bluff and actually took back some 777s instead of renegotiating, the airline opted instead to shed only a portion of the 747 fleet (the birds youve mentioned) and maintain a critical mass until a future replacement was delivered.
Live life to the fullest.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:53 pm

Anyone have a number for most 747’s (all models) United had at one time and what year that would have been?
 
United1
Posts: 4164
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:12 pm

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
Anyone have a number for most 747’s (all models) United had at one time and what year that would have been?


Right around 1995 they would have had around ~60 747s in service...a couple of the SPs might have been out of service but should be about right. In total UA operated 88 747s over the years the type was in service.

24 747-400
9 747-200
11 747-SP
18 747-100
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
codc10
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:14 pm

The 747-400 fleet peaked at 43, I believe, in 2000.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8619
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:31 pm

United1 wrote:
In total UA operated 88 747s over the years the type was in service.

24 747-400
9 747-200
11 747-SP
18 747-100


Did I miss something? That's only 62
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
WN732
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:37 pm

727LOVER wrote:
United1 wrote:
In total UA operated 88 747s over the years the type was in service.

24 747-400
9 747-200
11 747-SP
18 747-100


Did I miss something? That's only 62


He said back in 1995. Some were already stored by then but 88 was the total for all models.
 
United1
Posts: 4164
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:49 pm

727LOVER wrote:
United1 wrote:
In total UA operated 88 747s over the years the type was in service.

24 747-400
9 747-200
11 747-SP
18 747-100


Did I miss something? That's only 62


There were 20 additional 744s delivered after this point and a few more 741s that had already left the fleet pre 1995. 60-62 frames should be the peak as after 95 UA started replacing the older 747s with 744s and 777 aircraft.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8619
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:50 pm

I understand now....thank you !
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:06 pm

UA filed for bankruptcy in 2002 and exited in 2006. That's why. Many 747s were parked after 9/11 and the trend continued through Chapter 11. UA had the highest costs in the industry at the time thanks to a pilot dispute in 2000.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:58 pm

United1 wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
Anyone have a number for most 747’s (all models) United had at one time and what year that would have been?


Right around 1995 they would have had around ~60 747s in service...a couple of the SPs might have been out of service but should be about right. In total UA operated 88 747s over the years the type was in service.

24 747-400
9 747-200
11 747-SP
18 747-100


Thanks!
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:40 am

avek00 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
How come many UA 747-400s were sold off between 2001-2005? Here are the regs
N172UA
N176UA
N183UA
N184UA
N185UA
N186UA
N188UA
N189UA
N190UA
N191UA
N192UA
N108UA
N109UA
Anyone know why 13 airframs were sold off?


Longer answer:

During the BK restructuring, UA aimed to ditch its entire Boeing 747 fleet, which even at that time was costly to maintain and an inflexible platform for evolving longhaul market trends. Key to this goal was maintaining (and eventually expanding) the 777 fleet at reduced lease rates, and it's here UA ran into problems. The lessors balked at taking big haircuts on the 777 leases because the market demand for 777s was very strong at the time. As lessors called United's bluff and actually took back some 777s instead of renegotiating, the airline opted instead to shed only a portion of the 747 fleet (the birds youve mentioned) and maintain a critical mass until a future replacement was delivered.

Thanks for the detailed information, avek00. I think during the same bankruptcy proceedings, UA also rejected few (eight IIRC) B777-222A/ER which went to Varig and Air India. One of those were first B777 to be scrapped.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:29 am

blacksoviet wrote:
N190UA was stored after only ten years of service. Today she is in Mahan Air storage.

She is in storage with her sister N176UA at IKA. With her sibling N172UA which returned to service recently after nine years in storage, one can hope the other two can do so too. What sad sight to see the Queen wasted.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:01 am

juliuswong wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
N190UA was stored after only ten years of service. Today she is in Mahan Air storage.

She is in storage with her sister N176UA at IKA. With her sibling N172UA which returned to service recently after nine years in storage, one can hope the other two can do so too. What sad sight to see the Queen wasted.

Are spare parts not available?
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4964
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:30 am

UA857 wrote:
How come many UA 747-400s were sold off between 2001-2005? Here are the regs
N172UA
N176UA
N183UA
N184UA
N185UA
N186UA
N188UA
N189UA
N190UA
N191UA
N192UA
N108UA
N109UA
Anyone know why 13 airframs were sold off?

United has a habit of buying airplanes and immediately selling them and leasing them back. at times some owners try to increase their rates for one reason or another. Maybe because the market is hot and they might make more somewhere else. But during the CH-11 period? United was downsizing and fewer 747-400's were needed.
United kept the ones they needed, I remember this also happening way back with some 747-122's as well so it wasn't a surprise. they flew them down to the desert and out the original engines back on them and let them go, United always swapped engines so that NO airplane would ever need a double engine change for time at the same time. We even removed engines early to effect a time stagger.
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Why were many UA 747-400s sold off between 2001-2005

Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:42 am

I remember UA having two oddballs ex-NWA B744 ntu (N105UA and N106UA). United also rejected N106UA lease during the bankruptcy, and stored between 2003-2007. Returned to service again March 2007-2009, before going into storage again.



Blue Sky was supposed to get N106UA for Mahan Air as fourth 744, however the deal fell through when the US Congress sniffed out the shady dealing via third country. It went to Phuket Air eventually in 2010 who flew it for a year before returning to US for storage then scrapped.

In total, she flew only 14 years. What a shortlived life.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... est/e5g2q3

Her sister N105UA had better life, serving UA till very end in 2018. 24+ years of serving before meeting her end in Maxton.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos