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kiowa
Topic Author
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Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:16 pm

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fog-f ... =bigcharts

Why would so many flights get cancelled at MDW and not at ORD because of fog this morning?
 
ATCJesus
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:30 pm

One is a lot closer to the lake than the other.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:37 pm

MDW landing mins are much higher than ORD due to the lack of CAT II or CAT III approach capability at MDW.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:56 pm

I believe the RNAV approaches are the best possible at MDW. With 100 foot ceilings, nothing has arrived since 2am. ORD has CATIII ILS.

As a side note, due to flow control and many regional jets not being able to make CAT III approaches, ORD is almost exclusively mainline this morning. The regionals can’t get in with 100 foot ceilings.
 
flight152
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:01 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I believe the RNAV approaches are the best possible at MDW. With 100 foot ceilings, nothing has arrived since 2am. ORD has CATIII ILS.

As a side note, due to flow control and many regional jets not being able to make CAT III approaches, ORD is almost exclusively mainline this morning. The regionals can’t get in with 100 foot ceilings.

Visibility is the controlling factor with approaches, not ceiling height. Several regionals can do Cat 2 approaches.
 
jakeroberts212
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:26 pm

Fun times for the WN staff at MDW today. Imagine emotions are running high at being told your flight is cancelled on Christmas Eve and WN (I believe) has no interline partners to rebook passengers on other airlines.

I get weather issues are out of WN's hands, but at least AA and UA have options if their regional jets can't land to either book them on mainline flights or other airlines if there's space.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:30 pm

flight152 wrote:
Visibility is the controlling factor with approaches, not ceiling height. Several regionals can do Cat 2 approaches.


Exactly correct, visibility controls straight-in landing min.....ceiling applies for circling approaches though ceiling can certainly have an impact on straight-in approaches just not determining the mins.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:40 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
flight152 wrote:
Visibility is the controlling factor with approaches, not ceiling height. Several regionals can do Cat 2 approaches.


Exactly correct, visibility controls straight-in landing min.....ceiling applies for circling approaches though ceiling can certainly have an impact on straight-in approaches just not determining the mins.


I didn’t see what the visibility was. I only saw 100 ft ceiling, so I assume visibility was also very low
 
bigb
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:47 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
flight152 wrote:
Visibility is the controlling factor with approaches, not ceiling height. Several regionals can do Cat 2 approaches.


Exactly correct, visibility controls straight-in landing min.....ceiling applies for circling approaches though ceiling can certainly have an impact on straight-in approaches just not determining the mins.


Visibility was definitely below CAT II mins for some time this morning which affected regional dispatching of flights I am sure.
 
zuckie13
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:48 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
flight152 wrote:
Visibility is the controlling factor with approaches, not ceiling height. Several regionals can do Cat 2 approaches.


Exactly correct, visibility controls straight-in landing min.....ceiling applies for circling approaches though ceiling can certainly have an impact on straight-in approaches just not determining the mins.


Visibility controls, but good luck having that visibility for landing if the ceiling is below the decision height.
 
ScottB
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:59 pm

jakeroberts212 wrote:
Fun times for the WN staff at MDW today. Imagine emotions are running high at being told your flight is cancelled on Christmas Eve and WN (I believe) has no interline partners to rebook passengers on other airlines.

I get weather issues are out of WN's hands, but at least AA and UA have options if their regional jets can't land to either book them on mainline flights or other airlines if there's space.


The availability of interline options doesn't help much when everyone's running 90+% load factors and you're at a hub. OK, maybe a Global Services passenger might get one of the three available seats on Delta but pretty much everyone else is just as screwed as they would be on WN. The interline option is much more of a help when you're trying to avoid going through a hub that is melting down due to weather or power outages or whatever.
 
swacle
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:08 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
IAHFLYR wrote:
flight152 wrote:
Visibility is the controlling factor with approaches, not ceiling height. Several regionals can do Cat 2 approaches.


Exactly correct, visibility controls straight-in landing min.....ceiling applies for circling approaches though ceiling can certainly have an impact on straight-in approaches just not determining the mins.


I didn’t see what the visibility was. I only saw 100 ft ceiling, so I assume visibility was also very low


The lowest I saw was 1/8 mile and 100 foot ceilings, well below minimums.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
mikezc128
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:14 pm

Looks like a United 777 diverted to MKE this morning.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL9 ... /KSFO/KMKE
Threshold Aviation Photography
 
Wags69
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:17 pm

Was rough driving this morning. Was driving by KDPA along the east perimeter, and could barely see the threshold lights to 33.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:17 pm

ScottB wrote:
jakeroberts212 wrote:
Fun times for the WN staff at MDW today. Imagine emotions are running high at being told your flight is cancelled on Christmas Eve and WN (I believe) has no interline partners to rebook passengers on other airlines.

I get weather issues are out of WN's hands, but at least AA and UA have options if their regional jets can't land to either book them on mainline flights or other airlines if there's space.


The availability of interline options doesn't help much when everyone's running 90+% load factors and you're at a hub. OK, maybe a Global Services passenger might get one of the three available seats on Delta but pretty much everyone else is just as screwed as they would be on WN. The interline option is much more of a help when you're trying to avoid going through a hub that is melting down due to weather or power outages or whatever.


Indeed. I bet the other airlines serving MDW had barely a 738 worth of empty seats between them, if that. Also keep in mind that because of the way that WN's network works -- where the vast majority of connecting passengers have options over at least four or five "hubs" in different parts of the country -- WN can reprotect in house in a similar way to how interlining works for a carrier that might have flights to just a hub or two from a given outstation.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
jakeroberts212
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:38 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ScottB wrote:
jakeroberts212 wrote:
Fun times for the WN staff at MDW today. Imagine emotions are running high at being told your flight is cancelled on Christmas Eve and WN (I believe) has no interline partners to rebook passengers on other airlines.

I get weather issues are out of WN's hands, but at least AA and UA have options if their regional jets can't land to either book them on mainline flights or other airlines if there's space.


The availability of interline options doesn't help much when everyone's running 90+% load factors and you're at a hub. OK, maybe a Global Services passenger might get one of the three available seats on Delta but pretty much everyone else is just as screwed as they would be on WN. The interline option is much more of a help when you're trying to avoid going through a hub that is melting down due to weather or power outages or whatever.


Indeed. I bet the other airlines serving MDW had barely a 738 worth of empty seats between them, if that. Also keep in mind that because of the way that WN's network works -- where the vast majority of connecting passengers have options over at least four or five "hubs" in different parts of the country -- WN can reprotect in house in a similar way to how interlining works for a carrier that might have flights to just a hub or two from a given outstation.


I don’t know if I was on another planet, but the couple of times I’ve flown on Christmas Eve, including last year, the flights have been empty. What’s all this concern about no space on other airlines today?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:00 pm

jakeroberts212 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
ScottB wrote:

The availability of interline options doesn't help much when everyone's running 90+% load factors and you're at a hub. OK, maybe a Global Services passenger might get one of the three available seats on Delta but pretty much everyone else is just as screwed as they would be on WN. The interline option is much more of a help when you're trying to avoid going through a hub that is melting down due to weather or power outages or whatever.


Indeed. I bet the other airlines serving MDW had barely a 738 worth of empty seats between them, if that. Also keep in mind that because of the way that WN's network works -- where the vast majority of connecting passengers have options over at least four or five "hubs" in different parts of the country -- WN can reprotect in house in a similar way to how interlining works for a carrier that might have flights to just a hub or two from a given outstation.


I don’t know if I was on another planet, but the couple of times I’ve flown on Christmas Eve, including last year, the flights have been empty. What’s all this concern about no space on other airlines today?


Load factor really is irrelevant given WN's share at MDW. If DL had a load factor of zero, it still wouldn't be able to accommodate even 5 percent of the WN passengers.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:33 pm

The fog lasted much longer at ORD than MDW.... however, WN is terrible in IRROP situations and since their planes typically don't do out and back flying, its easier for them to cancel their way out of a mess. MDW also does not have a Cat II/III approach, ORD does.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:34 pm

swacle wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
IAHFLYR wrote:

Exactly correct, visibility controls straight-in landing min.....ceiling applies for circling approaches though ceiling can certainly have an impact on straight-in approaches just not determining the mins.


I didn’t see what the visibility was. I only saw 100 ft ceiling, so I assume visibility was also very low


The lowest I saw was 1/8 mile and 100 foot ceilings, well below minimums.

Not necessarily - depends. You can have 1/8SM visibility but RVR greater than 6000. This would not be below minimums.
 
jakeroberts212
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:45 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
jakeroberts212 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Indeed. I bet the other airlines serving MDW had barely a 738 worth of empty seats between them, if that. Also keep in mind that because of the way that WN's network works -- where the vast majority of connecting passengers have options over at least four or five "hubs" in different parts of the country -- WN can reprotect in house in a similar way to how interlining works for a carrier that might have flights to just a hub or two from a given outstation.


I don’t know if I was on another planet, but the couple of times I’ve flown on Christmas Eve, including last year, the flights have been empty. What’s all this concern about no space on other airlines today?


Load factor really is irrelevant given WN's share at MDW. If DL had a load factor of zero, it still wouldn't be able to accommodate even 5 percent of the WN passengers.


I hear you, but if WN interlined they could have at least sent passengers to ORD where CAT II/III is available.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:53 pm

Don't fly WN in winter. Same goes for JetBlue and Spirit.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:02 pm

jakeroberts212 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
jakeroberts212 wrote:

I don’t know if I was on another planet, but the couple of times I’ve flown on Christmas Eve, including last year, the flights have been empty. What’s all this concern about no space on other airlines today?


Load factor really is irrelevant given WN's share at MDW. If DL had a load factor of zero, it still wouldn't be able to accommodate even 5 percent of the WN passengers.


I hear you, but if WN interlined they could have at least sent passengers to ORD where CAT II/III is available.


I guess, but given that the airport was operating normally by 0900, for which passengers would that have been worth it? It’s a couple of hours gate to gate at best.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ericm2031
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:56 am

Most airlines avoid rebooking on other airlines for weather. So unless you have some status with the airline or some reason to give the airline that warrants an exception to be made, you would probably be out of luck regardless
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:59 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
Not necessarily - depends. You can have 1/8SM visibility but RVR greater than 6000. This would not be below minimums.


My bad as in my mind I lumped RVR in as the visibility requirement. Seen thousands of times where prevailing is as you mentioned and RVR is well above CAT 1 mins. Thanks for the post.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:22 pm

RVR is controlling, some regionals can do CATII down to 100ft/1200RVR

Horizon can do CATIII
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:36 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
MDW landing mins are much higher than ORD due to the lack of CAT II or CAT III approach capability at MDW.


Is there something structural at MDW that has prohibited installation of CAT II or CAT III capabilities?
 
kiowa
Topic Author
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:32 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
MDW landing mins are much higher than ORD due to the lack of CAT II or CAT III approach capability at MDW.


Why would MDW not have the same quality of FAA approaches that ORD has? I would understand that with a less busy airport but you would think that MDW is busy enough to warrant a more precise landing system.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:07 pm

kiowa wrote:
IAHFLYR wrote:
MDW landing mins are much higher than ORD due to the lack of CAT II or CAT III approach capability at MDW.


Why would MDW not have the same quality of FAA approaches that ORD has? I would understand that with a less busy airport but you would think that MDW is busy enough to warrant a more precise landing system.


Displaced thresholds because of the airport perimeter being completely closed in by busy streets and development does not lend itself to ILS equipment
 
jayunited
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:07 pm

mikezc128 wrote:
Looks like a United 777 diverted to MKE this morning.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL9 ... /KSFO/KMKE


That diversion was do to the fact the captain was a CAT II captain on the 777 and with visibility below CAT II minimum this flight had no choice but to divert to MKE.

I do know fog was in the forecast although I'm not sure what the forecast called for before this flight left SFO, but by the time the flight made it to ORD visibility across the entire region was dropping fast, CAT I and CAT II pilots couldn't land at ORD.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:11 pm

jayunited wrote:
mikezc128 wrote:
Looks like a United 777 diverted to MKE this morning.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL9 ... /KSFO/KMKE


That diversion was do to the fact the captain was a CAT II captain on the 777 and with visibility below CAT II minimum this flight had no choice but to divert to MKE.

I do know fog was in the forecast although I'm not sure what the forecast called for before this flight left SFO, but by the time the flight made it to ORD visibility across the entire region was dropping fast, CAT I and CAT II pilots couldn't land at ORD.

United doesn’t have any Cat 1 pilots. The captain is either high mins (which was the case in the 777) and can fly Cat II approaches down to 1200 RVR or they’re Cat III. Since 1/4SM is Cat II they would have been legal regardless of what the forecast said.
 
jayunited
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:42 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
mikezc128 wrote:
Looks like a United 777 diverted to MKE this morning.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL9 ... /KSFO/KMKE


That diversion was do to the fact the captain was a CAT II captain on the 777 and with visibility below CAT II minimum this flight had no choice but to divert to MKE.

I do know fog was in the forecast although I'm not sure what the forecast called for before this flight left SFO, but by the time the flight made it to ORD visibility across the entire region was dropping fast, CAT I and CAT II pilots couldn't land at ORD.

United doesn’t have any Cat 1 pilots. The captain is either high mins (which was the case in the 777) and can fly Cat II approaches down to 1200 RVR or they’re Cat III. Since 1/4SM is Cat II they would have been legal regardless of what the forecast said.


Its very frustrating when people twist another persons words to try and make their point. I clearly stated the captain was a CAT II captain on the 777 and visibility was below CAT II. Never once stated UA hads CAT I captains.

The second part of my post is not specifc to United Airlines only I stated CAT I and CAT II pilots couldn't land at ORD. Last time I checked UA wasn't the only airline flying into ORD.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:13 pm

ATA developed and certified an RNAV approach at MDW that could be flown with its HUD-equipped 737-800s. It worked very well for them. Don't know if WN followed suit, but I know that at the time ATA had a lot more bells and whistles on its 738s (or at least ACTIVATED on its 738s) than WN did.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:30 pm

wjcandee wrote:
ATA developed and certified an RNAV approach at MDW that could be flown with its HUD-equipped 737-800s. It worked very well for them. Don't know if WN followed suit, but I know that at the time ATA had a lot more bells and whistles on its 738s (or at least ACTIVATED on its 738s) than WN did.


Up until 10ish years ago SW pilots were not allowed to use the auto throttles, so they couldn’t do a CAT III if they wanted too.

They can now of course......
 
wjcandee
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:46 pm

Exactly. Or autobrakes.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:51 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
Most airlines avoid rebooking on other airlines for weather. So unless you have some status with the airline or some reason to give the airline that warrants an exception to be made, you would probably be out of luck regardless

That's not true at all. AS,AA,DL, and UA are all perfectly happy rebooking for weather. They won't for a couple of hours, but they will for a significant delay.
 
kiowa
Topic Author
Posts: 752
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:03 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
ATA developed and certified an RNAV approach at MDW that could be flown with its HUD-equipped 737-800s. It worked very well for them. Don't know if WN followed suit, but I know that at the time ATA had a lot more bells and whistles on its 738s (or at least ACTIVATED on its 738s) than WN did.


Up until 10ish years ago SW pilots were not allowed to use the auto throttles, so they couldn’t do a CAT III if they wanted too.

They can now of course......


I thought I remembered reading on the accident report of the SW crash at MDW several years ago that the pilots were using the autobrakes even though they were not authorized to use them at the time. Are you saying that they are now allowed or trained to use autobrakes and autothrottles?
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:13 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
ATA developed and certified an RNAV approach at MDW that could be flown with its HUD-equipped 737-800s. It worked very well for them. Don't know if WN followed suit, but I know that at the time ATA had a lot more bells and whistles on its 738s (or at least ACTIVATED on its 738s) than WN did.


Up until 10ish years ago SW pilots were not allowed to use the auto throttles, so they couldn’t do a CAT III if they wanted too.

They can now of course......



All of our CATIII approaches are hand flown with the A/P and AT's disengaged - so the authorization to use AT's is irrelevant. We have been doing CATIII approaches for over 25 years.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:18 pm

kiowa wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
ATA developed and certified an RNAV approach at MDW that could be flown with its HUD-equipped 737-800s. It worked very well for them. Don't know if WN followed suit, but I know that at the time ATA had a lot more bells and whistles on its 738s (or at least ACTIVATED on its 738s) than WN did.


Up until 10ish years ago SW pilots were not allowed to use the auto throttles, so they couldn’t do a CAT III if they wanted too.

They can now of course......


I thought I remembered reading on the accident report of the SW crash at MDW several years ago that the pilots were using the autobrakes even though they were not authorized to use them at the time. Are you saying that they are now allowed or trained to use autobrakes and autothrottles?


We are using the AT's and AB's without restriction (except as mentioned above) and have been for many years.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Elementalism
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:27 pm

Last Friday MSP had some pretty good fog. I couldn't see lights from the ground through the haze until we were over the river going into 30L Was wondering if we would make minimums.

I cant imagine MDW with fog.
 
mcdu
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:35 pm

That’s great that WN had lots of empty seats to protect their customers on. Those “four or five” hubs must be a blessing to their customers. Just out of curiosity, how do they get them reconnected at one of those hubs if none of their flights are operating?




Cubsrule wrote:
ScottB wrote:
jakeroberts212 wrote:
Fun times for the WN staff at MDW today. Imagine emotions are running high at being told your flight is cancelled on Christmas Eve and WN (I believe) has no interline partners to rebook passengers on other airlines.

I get weather issues are out of WN's hands, but at least AA and UA have options if their regional jets can't land to either book them on mainline flights or other airlines if there's space.


The availability of interline options doesn't help much when everyone's running 90+% load factors and you're at a hub. OK, maybe a Global Services passenger might get one of the three available seats on Delta but pretty much everyone else is just as screwed as they would be on WN. The interline option is much more of a help when you're trying to avoid going through a hub that is melting down due to weather or power outages or whatever.


Indeed. I bet the other airlines serving MDW had barely a 738 worth of empty seats between them, if that. Also keep in mind that because of the way that WN's network works -- where the vast majority of connecting passengers have options over at least four or five "hubs" in different parts of the country -- WN can reprotect in house in a similar way to how interlining works for a carrier that might have flights to just a hub or two from a given outstation.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14490
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:08 pm

mcdu wrote:
That’s great that WN had lots of empty seats to protect their customers on. Those “four or five” hubs must be a blessing to their customers. Just out of curiosity, how do they get them reconnected at one of those hubs if none of their flights are operating?




Cubsrule wrote:
ScottB wrote:

The availability of interline options doesn't help much when everyone's running 90+% load factors and you're at a hub. OK, maybe a Global Services passenger might get one of the three available seats on Delta but pretty much everyone else is just as screwed as they would be on WN. The interline option is much more of a help when you're trying to avoid going through a hub that is melting down due to weather or power outages or whatever.


Indeed. I bet the other airlines serving MDW had barely a 738 worth of empty seats between them, if that. Also keep in mind that because of the way that WN's network works -- where the vast majority of connecting passengers have options over at least four or five "hubs" in different parts of the country -- WN can reprotect in house in a similar way to how interlining works for a carrier that might have flights to just a hub or two from a given outstation.


Passengers at MDW already were in trouble because of WN’s share. I was speaking of passengers stuck at outstations.

By the way, how many outsourced pilots does your beloved UA have flying airplanes with the globe on them?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
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Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:37 pm

barney captain wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
ATA developed and certified an RNAV approach at MDW that could be flown with its HUD-equipped 737-800s. It worked very well for them. Don't know if WN followed suit, but I know that at the time ATA had a lot more bells and whistles on its 738s (or at least ACTIVATED on its 738s) than WN did.


Up until 10ish years ago SW pilots were not allowed to use the auto throttles, so they couldn’t do a CAT III if they wanted too.

They can now of course......



All of our CATIII approaches are hand flown with the A/P and AT's disengaged - so the authorization to use AT's is irrelevant. We have been doing CATIII approaches for over 25 years.


I buy that with the use of a HUD. But only your NGs have HUDs so have have you been doing it for 25 years.

Also we fly CATIII/LAND 3 to the lowest charted mins which can be as low as 300RVR.

So what are SW mins?
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:16 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
barney captain wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Up until 10ish years ago SW pilots were not allowed to use the auto throttles, so they couldn’t do a CAT III if they wanted too.

They can now of course......



All of our CATIII approaches are hand flown with the A/P and AT's disengaged - so the authorization to use AT's is irrelevant. We have been doing CATIII approaches for over 25 years.


I buy that with the use of a HUD. But only your NGs have HUDs so have have you been doing it for 25 years.

Also we fly CATIII/LAND 3 to the lowest charted mins which can be as low as 300RVR.

So what are SW mins?


All of our NG's and MAX's have the HGS installed - as did the Classics (since about 1995). We have CATIIIa landing mins of 6/6/3 and takeoff RVR as low as 3/3/3.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:32 am

barney captain wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
barney captain wrote:


All of our CATIII approaches are hand flown with the A/P and AT's disengaged - so the authorization to use AT's is irrelevant. We have been doing CATIII approaches for over 25 years.


I buy that with the use of a HUD. But only your NGs have HUDs so have have you been doing it for 25 years.

Also we fly CATIII/LAND 3 to the lowest charted mins which can be as low as 300RVR.

So what are SW mins?


All of our NG's and MAX's have the HGS installed - as did the Classics (since about 1995). We have CATIIIa landing mins of 6/6/3 and takeoff RVR as low as 3/3/3.


Impressive! United has HUDs on the 787 only and the only approach we can hand-fly is an SA CATII to 1200 RVR.

I would assume you use a DH instead of an AH? Is that correct?

We can also do 300 RVR departures
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:57 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
barney captain wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

I buy that with the use of a HUD. But only your NGs have HUDs so have have you been doing it for 25 years.

Also we fly CATIII/LAND 3 to the lowest charted mins which can be as low as 300RVR.

So what are SW mins?


All of our NG's and MAX's have the HGS installed - as did the Classics (since about 1995). We have CATIIIa landing mins of 6/6/3 and takeoff RVR as low as 3/3/3.


Impressive! United has HUDs on the 787 only and the only approach we can hand-fly is an SA CATII to 1200 RVR.

I would assume you use a DH instead of an AH? Is that correct?

We can also do 300 RVR departures


We use an RA derived DA of 50' - but for all intents and purposes, if we have the RVR to start the approach, and assuming it doesn't drop, we can likely land. I would love to see us add autoland and with the classics now gone, maybe that will happen (our classics weren't capable). We have to disconnect the AT's and AP no later than GS intercept for any HGS approach (CATIII, CATII Special CATI etc...).
Southeast Of Disorder
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:12 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I believe the RNAV approaches are the best possible at MDW. With 100 foot ceilings, nothing has arrived since 2am. ORD has CATIII ILS.

As a side note, due to flow control and many regional jets not being able to make CAT III approaches, ORD is almost exclusively mainline this morning. The regionals can’t get in with 100 foot ceilings.


I just looked and it seems like our lowest minimums in MDW is the ILS Z 31C using the HGS. It will get us down to 204' DA with a minimum required vis of 3000RVR.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
pdp
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 pm

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:49 am

barney captain wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I believe the RNAV approaches are the best possible at MDW. With 100 foot ceilings, nothing has arrived since 2am. ORD has CATIII ILS.

As a side note, due to flow control and many regional jets not being able to make CAT III approaches, ORD is almost exclusively mainline this morning. The regionals can’t get in with 100 foot ceilings.


I just looked and it seems like our lowest minimums in MDW is the ILS Z 31C using the HGS. It will get us down to 204' DA with a minimum required vis of 3000RVR.


Is this an SWA specific thing? The only ILS for 31C that the FAA publishes is this: https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1913/00081ILD31C.PDF

From what I understand (because that chart is an absolute abortion in design) the RA is 250’.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:38 am

pdp wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I believe the RNAV approaches are the best possible at MDW. With 100 foot ceilings, nothing has arrived since 2am. ORD has CATIII ILS.

As a side note, due to flow control and many regional jets not being able to make CAT III approaches, ORD is almost exclusively mainline this morning. The regionals can’t get in with 100 foot ceilings.


I just looked and it seems like our lowest minimums in MDW is the ILS Z 31C using the HGS. It will get us down to 204' DA with a minimum required vis of 3000RVR.


Is this an SWA specific thing? The only ILS for 31C that the FAA publishes is this: https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1913/00081ILD31C.PDF

From what I understand (because that chart is an absolute abortion in design) the RA is 250’.


Yes, it's a Southwest custom tailored approach chart supplied through Jeppesen -

Image
Southeast Of Disorder
 
mcdu
Posts: 1632
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:03 am

If you would like to start the topic about United we could chat there. For some reason I thought this topic was about MDW. My comments were in regards to you saying WN didn’t have any issues with the fog and getting passengers to their destinations.

So in keeping with the topic....That is good WN had all those empty seats at the outstations. I am sure if it had affected the customers they would have been unhappy but apparently it didn’t according to you so glad this has all been cleared up.

Cubsrule wrote:
mcdu wrote:
That’s great that WN had lots of empty seats to protect their customers on. Those “four or five” hubs must be a blessing to their customers. Just out of curiosity, how do they get them reconnected at one of those hubs if none of their flights are operating?




Cubsrule wrote:

Indeed. I bet the other airlines serving MDW had barely a 738 worth of empty seats between them, if that. Also keep in mind that because of the way that WN's network works -- where the vast majority of connecting passengers have options over at least four or five "hubs" in different parts of the country -- WN can reprotect in house in a similar way to how interlining works for a carrier that might have flights to just a hub or two from a given outstation.


Passengers at MDW already were in trouble because of WN’s share. I was speaking of passengers stuck at outstations.

By the way, how many outsourced pilots does your beloved UA have flying airplanes with the globe on them?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14490
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Cancelled fights at MDW Christmas Eve

Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:26 pm

mcdu wrote:
If you would like to start the topic about United we could chat there. For some reason I thought this topic was about MDW. My comments were in regards to you saying WN didn’t have any issues with the fog and getting passengers to their destinations.

So in keeping with the topic....That is good WN had all those empty seats at the outstations. I am sure if it had affected the customers they would have been unhappy but apparently it didn’t according to you so glad this has all been cleared up.

Cubsrule wrote:
mcdu wrote:
That’s great that WN had lots of empty seats to protect their customers on. Those “four or five” hubs must be a blessing to their customers. Just out of curiosity, how do they get them reconnected at one of those hubs if none of their flights are operating?






Passengers at MDW already were in trouble because of WN’s share. I was speaking of passengers stuck at outstations.

By the way, how many outsourced pilots does your beloved UA have flying airplanes with the globe on them?


Of course it affected passengers. But in a time of record load factors, interlining is hardly a panacea.
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