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Subwayfan1998 wrote:Hello Everyone, I want to know that Why did Norwegian Air Shuttle Suddenly Stopped Flying from Stockholm and Copenhagen to New York-JFK and other US Cities? What are the Reasons? Will it resumed again?
Because I like to Visit Sweden and Denmark.
SurfandSnow wrote:I can think of at least 4 reasons:
- Denmark and Sweden are *extremely* expensive places to visit and do business. Hubbing at the likes of ARN and CPH must cost a fortune - hardly a good strategy for a carrier with severe financial problems! Don't forget that eating out in places like Copenhagen and Stockholm tends to be exorbitantly expensive for American travelers. What good does getting a cheap fare to CPH do if you can't afford to enjoy the city once there?
Cointrin330 wrote:With ARN, a number of long hauls were cut or are being cut, not just Norwegian, but also SK, due to some sort of tax no? Not really the major factor when it comes to Norwegian specifically, but a contributing one overall to the lack of profitability. Also, Norwegian continues to deal with the RR engine issue and has to shuffle the fleet around so it would stand to reason axing unprofitable long hauls from small markets makes sense. They have also closed a few stations in the US as well. OAK is closing in favor of SFO, EWR is closed with BCN and FCO moved to JFK, and most of the FLL operation closing in favor of MIA.
PatrickZ80 wrote:Cointrin330 wrote:With ARN, a number of long hauls were cut or are being cut, not just Norwegian, but also SK, due to some sort of tax no? Not really the major factor when it comes to Norwegian specifically, but a contributing one overall to the lack of profitability. Also, Norwegian continues to deal with the RR engine issue and has to shuffle the fleet around so it would stand to reason axing unprofitable long hauls from small markets makes sense. They have also closed a few stations in the US as well. OAK is closing in favor of SFO, EWR is closed with BCN and FCO moved to JFK, and most of the FLL operation closing in favor of MIA.
True, aviation tax in Sweden is one of the highest in Europe. That's the reason they weren't able to offer low fares out of Sweden, at least not as low as out of other countries without this tax.
Norwegian is an airline that caters to cheapskates, they'll do anything to get the lowest price. That includes self-transfering at a foreign airport. Just lower than others ain't low enough, it has to be the very cheapest. That can't be achieved out of Sweden. It can be achieved out of Spain for example (Spain doesn't have an aviation tax), where they have a big base in Barcelona. That ain't all local Barcelona traffic, lots of people that fly Norwegian out of Barcelona self-connect there. In fact I've done so myself when I flew them.
Since Swedes will first fly from Sweden to Barcelona to catch their flight there (cheaper), they won't fly direct from Sweden to their destination. That has a negative impact on the load factors on the flights out of Sweden. So much that these flights ain't profitable anymore. On the other hand the fact that Spain doesn't have a tax increases the load factors out of Barcelona.
okobjorn wrote:And at least the pricing for food is transparent in the Nordics, compared to the US where you have to add cover charges and exorbitant tips (15%+) to the menu prices...
PatrickZ80 wrote:Since Swedes will first fly from Sweden to Barcelona to catch their flight there (cheaper), they won't fly direct from Sweden to their destination.
cedarjet wrote:Very small market, little to no interest for Americans (OP aside). The attempt to serve these routes must be related to the airline’s Scandinavian heritage rather than good business sense. Like when American Trans Air tried Riga in the 90s, because the boss was of Latvian descent. Franco Mancassola, boss of bankrupt U.K. low cost Debonair started service from London to his Italian birthplace (can’t remember; too obscure) with similar results.
Tristarsteve wrote:I have worked at ARN for over 30 years, and watched the flights to the USA come and go.
In 1987 to 1992, TWA operated a Tristar JFK-ARN-JFK in June July and August, and then a B767-200 shared with Oslo, JFK-FBU-ARN-JFK the rest of the year. Other airlines have found the same. Tourists can fill the aircraft in June and July, then the aircraft is empty the rest of the year. Tower Air B747, Northwest DC10, AA B767, Pan Am A310. Delta A310 etc have all tried and gone. And of course Malaysian B744/B777 for 4 years.
SAS creams off all the business traffic as they all have SAS Eurobonus cards and use the points for upgrades (as I did 2 months ago).
There is not enough left for the others.
Edit forgot NW.
Rossiya747 wrote:Maybe codeshare/interline with WN in the near future?
MartijnNL wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:Since Swedes will first fly from Sweden to Barcelona to catch their flight there (cheaper), they won't fly direct from Sweden to their destination.
Why would any Swede do that when KLM, Lufthansa and Swiss regularly offer full service return tickets from Stockholm to Los Angeles and San Francisco for around € 300,00 or less?
PatrickZ80 wrote:Cointrin330 wrote:With ARN, a number of long hauls were cut or are being cut, not just Norwegian, but also SK, due to some sort of tax no? Not really the major factor when it comes to Norwegian specifically, but a contributing one overall to the lack of profitability. Also, Norwegian continues to deal with the RR engine issue and has to shuffle the fleet around so it would stand to reason axing unprofitable long hauls from small markets makes sense. They have also closed a few stations in the US as well. OAK is closing in favor of SFO, EWR is closed with BCN and FCO moved to JFK, and most of the FLL operation closing in favor of MIA.
True, aviation tax in Sweden is one of the highest in Europe. That's the reason they weren't able to offer low fares out of Sweden, at least not as low as out of other countries without this tax.
Norwegian is an airline that caters to cheapskates, they'll do anything to get the lowest price. That includes self-transfering at a foreign airport. Just lower than others ain't low enough, it has to be the very cheapest. That can't be achieved out of Sweden. It can be achieved out of Spain for example (Spain doesn't have an aviation tax), where they have a big base in Barcelona. That ain't all local Barcelona traffic, lots of people that fly Norwegian out of Barcelona self-connect there. In fact I've done so myself when I flew them.
Since Swedes will first fly from Sweden to Barcelona to catch their flight there (cheaper), they won't fly direct from Sweden to their destination. That has a negative impact on the load factors on the flights out of Sweden. So much that these flights ain't profitable anymore. On the other hand the fact that Spain doesn't have a tax increases the load factors out of Barcelona.
cedarjet wrote:Very small market, little to no interest for Americans (OP aside). The attempt to serve these routes must be related to the airline’s Scandinavian heritage rather than good business sense. Like when American Trans Air tried Riga in the 90s, because the boss was of Latvian descent. Franco Mancassola, boss of bankrupt U.K. low cost Debonair started service from London to his Italian birthplace (can’t remember; too obscure) with similar results.
PatrickZ80 wrote:True, aviation tax in Sweden is one of the highest in Europe. That's the reason they weren't able to offer low fares out of Sweden, at least not as low as out of other countries without this tax.
SASViking wrote:cedarjet wrote:Very small market, little to no interest for Americans (OP aside). The attempt to serve these routes must be related to the airline’s Scandinavian heritage rather than good business sense. Like when American Trans Air tried Riga in the 90s, because the boss was of Latvian descent. Franco Mancassola, boss of bankrupt U.K. low cost Debonair started service from London to his Italian birthplace (can’t remember; too obscure) with similar results.
The market is there, at least for CPH. In the summer Copenhagen is full of Americans and a lot of Danes go to the US too. In 2020 there's quite a big increase of capacity between CPH and the US (and YYZ on AC which a lot of pax use for connections to/from the US) especially in the Summer most were announced before Norwegian announced their closures.
SAS:
CPH-EWR: increase to 2x daily (A333/A359) from March to November, instead of 11-13 weekly A333/A343.
CPH-LAX: New daily service (A333/A343/A359)
CPH-SFO: A359 to operate alongside A343.
CPH-BOS: 6x weekly A321LR year-round replacing summer-seasonal A333 service.
CPH-ORD: A359 replacing A333/A343 between January and June.
CPH-IAD: to operate daily year-round A333 and not cutting down to 5 weekly in January/February.
Delta:
CPH-JFK: Summer seasonal daily 76W extented by 2 months (operating May 1st to October 24th)
AC:
CPH-YYZ: Daily 450-seater 77W to replace Daily 400-seater 77W from May to October.
On top of that there's the connections via KEF, LHR, MUC, FRA, CDG, AMS etc.
The reason Norwegian failed is that they've been a mix of amateurs and unlucky.
Selling flights so cheap they couldn't earn money on it, offering a low frequency service etc. And the problems with their 787's.
SASViking wrote:On top of that there's the connections via KEF, LHR, MUC, FRA, CDG, AMS etc.
PatrickZ80 wrote:Maybe because € 300 is quite expensive and Norwegian can undercut that out of Barcelona. Full-service or not doesn't make any difference, it's the price that matters. Usually full-service only means you're paying for services you don't make use of.
MartijnNL wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:Maybe because € 300 is quite expensive and Norwegian can undercut that out of Barcelona. Full-service or not doesn't make any difference, it's the price that matters. Usually full-service only means you're paying for services you don't make use of.
Stockholm - Barcelona - Los Angeles return is a 15,000 mile journey. Do you really think 30 hours in the air for € 300,00 is quite expensive? How much does Norwegian actually charge for this trip?
Personally I would always pay € 300,00 for a return ticket from Stockholm to Los Angeles via Amsterdam, Frankfurt or Zurich on KLM, Lufthansa or Swiss instead of saving a little money by using Norwegian via Barcelona. To me hot meals and drinks make all the difference to long haul flights. Going via Spain adds to the total flying time as well.
B747forever wrote:![]()
PatrickZ80 is obviously obsessed about LCCs and considers anything beyond a seat onboard an aircraft as extra and thus unnecessary. What he fails to see is that extra $50-100 a full service carrier charges vs LCC not only includes usually better seating and a soft product with meals, but more importantly works as an insurance in case of IRROPS. Good luck getting rebooked if your Ryanair or Norwegian flight is canceled. When you pay the tiny fare premium a full service carrier charges you get a much better trip protection. Your Lufthansa, KLM or BA ticket gives you access to basically any carrier within Star, Skyteam or OneWorld in case of delays/cancellations.
Subwayfan1998 wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:Cointrin330 wrote:With ARN, a number of long hauls were cut or are being cut, not just Norwegian, but also SK, due to some sort of tax no? Not really the major factor when it comes to Norwegian specifically, but a contributing one overall to the lack of profitability. Also, Norwegian continues to deal with the RR engine issue and has to shuffle the fleet around so it would stand to reason axing unprofitable long hauls from small markets makes sense. They have also closed a few stations in the US as well. OAK is closing in favor of SFO, EWR is closed with BCN and FCO moved to JFK, and most of the FLL operation closing in favor of MIA.
True, aviation tax in Sweden is one of the highest in Europe. That's the reason they weren't able to offer low fares out of Sweden, at least not as low as out of other countries without this tax.
Norwegian is an airline that caters to cheapskates, they'll do anything to get the lowest price. That includes self-transfering at a foreign airport. Just lower than others ain't low enough, it has to be the very cheapest. That can't be achieved out of Sweden. It can be achieved out of Spain for example (Spain doesn't have an aviation tax), where they have a big base in Barcelona. That ain't all local Barcelona traffic, lots of people that fly Norwegian out of Barcelona self-connect there. In fact I've done so myself when I flew them.
Since Swedes will first fly from Sweden to Barcelona to catch their flight there (cheaper), they won't fly direct from Sweden to their destination. That has a negative impact on the load factors on the flights out of Sweden. So much that these flights ain't profitable anymore. On the other hand the fact that Spain doesn't have a tax increases the load factors out of Barcelona.
Sweden should change it's policy by abolishing Aviation Tax
PatrickZ80 wrote:Of course Norwegian still serves these destinations one-stop through the many European destinations from where they do fly to New York. For example through London Gatwick, from where they got multiple daily flights to both Stockholm and Copenhagen.
The idea that they can serve destinations one-stop in order to increase load factors is finally starting to sink in with Norwegian. For a long time that was their problem, they wanted to serve each market non-stop. Often those markets proved to be too small and the load factors were trash. But if you can concentrate multiple markets in one flight, you don't have that problem anymore.