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Thunderbolt500
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Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:01 pm

El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:41 am

Why can't el al fly straight across countries the ME like over Iran or iraq or saudia arabia
 
Philippine747
Posts: 267
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:04 am

Without getting political, Israel is in a really tight spot. Save for Jordan, Turkey and Egypt, Israel has no diplomatic relationships with other Mideast nations, and any interaction with other countries have been mostly hostile. However, in recent years, Mideast countries have been relaxing their restrictions on overflights for foreign aircraft bound for Israel. Air India regularly does BOM-TLV with the 787, overflying Saudi Arabia before entering Jordanian airspace. PR did a presidential MNL-TLV flight a few months ago which was able to transit Saudi as well.

edit: words
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Thunderbolt500
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:43 am

No seriously why are they so anti isreal to go over say Syria, it would be like the USA not able to go over cuba. The reason I ask this I saw the post about the a300. Is a person from the USA able to go on iran air .?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:49 am

You might review the last 200 years of Middle East history, especially the later years of the Ottoman Empire, British and French colonial experience, Zionism since about 1890, Israeli War of Independence. Then, look at the history of Islam, the capture of Jerusalem after the fall of Rome, the Crusades, Mamluks. Then, it gets complicated.

GF
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:56 am

Philippine747 wrote:
PR did a presidential MNL-TLV flight a few months ago which was able to transit Saudi as well.

Thats interesting. Would diplomatic flights have been able to overfly those nations on their way to Israel, say 20 years ago?
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:56 am

I watched a video of a guy made of going to iran a saudia Arabia and he said the people were really nice not talking about politics
 
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casinterest
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:02 am

What is this Isreal the OP talks about. It can't be Israel? Can it?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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chepos
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:10 am

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
I watched a video of a guy made of going to iran a saudia Arabia and he said the people were really nice not talking about politics


Israeli citizens are not allowed entry into KSA (amongst other countries). Anyways, back to your question, simple, Iraq, Iran and KSA do not recognize Israel, hence an Israeli airline is not allowed into their air space.


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Thunderbolt500
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:28 am

That's silly idon't see why they can't be friends we other because the maker of the video showed the Saudis to be western with American brands and also itlookslikethe young people want change and be more like the west.
 
Philippine747
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:51 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Philippine747 wrote:
PR did a presidential MNL-TLV flight a few months ago which was able to transit Saudi as well.

Thats interesting. Would diplomatic flights have been able to overfly those nations on their way to Israel, say 20 years ago?


Hmmmmm that I do not know. But I think the US or other Western countries may have figured a workaround back then...
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Spiderguy252
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:43 am

Well if you want to get a piece of factoid from this thread, let me just offer that there is another Middle Eastern country who have never snapped off diplomatic ties with Israel for the better part of a quarter century, and overflight rights through that country are possible (AI does this on BOM-TLV). That country is Oman.
Vahroone
 
SueD
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:00 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Philippine747 wrote:
PR did a presidential MNL-TLV flight a few months ago which was able to transit Saudi as well.

Thats interesting. Would diplomatic flights have been able to overfly those nations on their way to Israel, say 20 years ago?


Diplomatic and NATO military transports including RAF Voyagers routinely fly over Israel and Jordan and into Saudi airspace .

Whitst there are no official political ties with Saudi , there are certain covert communication channels on the your enemies, enemies are your friends basis . The common enemy being the Shia and Alawite alliance lined up in the north spanning from the Mediterranean to edge of the sub continent and their proxies in Gaza, even more so than ISIS.

With Netanyahu clinging on in power nothing changing in the peace process anytime soon, El-AL and Arkia will continue to fly at 29,000’ down the Red Sea in radio silence for the foreseeable future
 
SCQ83
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:16 am

chepos wrote:
Israeli citizens are not allowed entry into KSA (amongst other countries). Anyways, back to your question, simple, Iraq, Iran and KSA do not recognize Israel, hence an Israeli airline is not allowed into their air space.


Many Israelis hold a 2nd citizenship, so they can by-pass it.

Also Arab (Muslim) Israelis sometimes travel to Makkah and Madinah on organized trips on temporary travel passes issued by Jordan.

The way Saudi is becoming so progressive right now, I could see being more open to each other would be helpful for their economies.

With the new tourist visas, there are already American Christian groups touring Biblical sites in Saudi Arabia (not joking, you can google it). The same crowd that would go to Israel. After all the area between Jerusalem and Makkah is the epicenter of the three monotheist religions. If there was more freedom, Muslim Israelis could visit the Islamic sites in KSA and Saudis could visit Jerusalem much easier (already Saudis visit Jerusalem but on small numbers). Tourism money doesn’t understand about religions.

Not to mention railway connection between Jerusalem/Jaffa and Madinah/Makkah that could be very helpful for the economy of both countries, at least for cargo. That is not such a crazy idea; that railway existed (Hijaz railway) during the Ottoman empire.
 
a99
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:08 am

It is difficult to discuss this issue without getting political.
Many countries around the world consider the Israel government system to be apartheid. Accordingly they treat Israel like apartheid South Africa was treated.
There is hope for peace but the situation for the Palestinians must improve, the status quo is not sustainable. The illegal settlements are thorny issue same for the status of Jerusalem and right for Palestinians to return to their homes that they were kicked out from in 1948 and 1967.
I am hopeful that things will improve.

Granted flying rights is a sovereignty issue and nations are free to act as they please. I think diplomatic flights are allowed and so are flights that do not originate or end in Israel. As for the regular Air India flight it was a special case due to a special request from the Indian government to Saudi. Do not think it will be replicated any time soon.

P.S. those who try to link the problems in the Middle East to issues before 1948 are not correct. Prior to 1948 people in Palestine coexisted peacefully with each other.
 
flyingisthebest
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:24 pm

Because the Israel and Palestine conflict with most Middle East countries siding with Palestine. This is why ElAl can’t fly directly through the Middle East.
 
ltbewr
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:54 pm

I might also suggest that Israeli based airliners cannot overfly certain countries as they need to be able to divert to airports that they can use, not in countries that don't recognize Israel.
 
vishal1996
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:41 am

Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:39 pm

Philippine747 wrote:
Without getting political, Israel is in a really tight spot. Save for Jordan, Turkey and Egypt, Israel has no diplomatic relationships with other Mideast nations, and any interaction with other countries have been mostly hostile. However, in recent years, Mideast countries have been relaxing their restrictions on overflights for foreign aircraft bound for Israel. Air India regularly does BOM-TLV with the 787, overflying Saudi Arabia before entering Jordanian airspace. PR did a presidential MNL-TLV flight a few months ago which was able to transit Saudi as well.

edit: words

Air India doesn't fly BOM-TLV, but DEL-TLV. The flight was only possible when Saudi Arabia granted this flight special rights to use its airspace. On the other hand, El Al flies BOM-TLV, which doesn't have the same overfly rights as Air India, is almost 1.5-2 hrs longer than it should be.
NExt Flight - DEL-ZRH
 
Philippine747
Posts: 267
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:10 pm

vishal1996 wrote:
Philippine747 wrote:
Without getting political, Israel is in a really tight spot. Save for Jordan, Turkey and Egypt, Israel has no diplomatic relationships with other Mideast nations, and any interaction with other countries have been mostly hostile. However, in recent years, Mideast countries have been relaxing their restrictions on overflights for foreign aircraft bound for Israel. Air India regularly does BOM-TLV with the 787, overflying Saudi Arabia before entering Jordanian airspace. PR did a presidential MNL-TLV flight a few months ago which was able to transit Saudi as well.

edit: words

Air India doesn't fly BOM-TLV, but DEL-TLV. The flight was only possible when Saudi Arabia granted this flight special rights to use its airspace. On the other hand, El Al flies BOM-TLV, which doesn't have the same overfly rights as Air India, is almost 1.5-2 hrs longer than it should be.


Oh. Thanks for the correction! :)
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entdoc
Posts: 84
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:59 pm

for what its worth back in 2015 with huge sandstorms at Amman one or two RJ flights (originated in other arab countries)
did divert to TLV. Pax were given Krembo and snacks and flew on when sand cleared.
 
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janders
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Re: El Al and countries around Isreal

Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:28 pm

Since its clear that this topic cannot be discussed without going off-topic with virtually half of the thread deleted, its henceforth locked.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle

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