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amax1977
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Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:53 am

Happy Holidays pals!

Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe? A flight that could leave LAX at 11:00 AM would arrive LHR next morning at 6:00 AM and that would be a perfect flight for a business traveler. But, there is no airline with a morning flight from anywhere in the West Coast to Europe... All flights from the West Coast to Europe are after 3:00 PM.

Cheers,
Alan
 
boerje
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:28 am

On arrival, after flying for about 11 hours, our business traveller would have his/her internal clock at 10:00 PM. He/she might need some strong coffee to stay awake for another 15 hours.
 
MonAmQB
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:58 am

boerje wrote:
On arrival, after flying for about 11 hours, our business traveller would have his/her internal clock at 10:00 PM. He/she might need some strong coffee to stay awake for another 15 hours.


I have done similar flights, although not to Europe. After a full day of work in east coast, catch the midnight departure DL ATL-ICN flight, arriving at ICN at 5am. Arriving at the city by 7am, just in time for a day of work. By the time I get to bed, it feels like a REALLY looong day.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:00 pm

amax1977 wrote:
Happy Holidays pals!

Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe? A flight that could leave LAX at 11:00 AM would arrive LHR next morning at 6:00 AM and that would be a perfect flight for a business traveler. But, there is no airline with a morning flight from anywhere in the West Coast to Europe... All flights from the West Coast to Europe are after 3:00 PM.

Cheers,
Alan


This schedule would be non perfect for the travellers employer, overnight hotel bill in LA, day in the air and employee too tired to work the following day
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:20 pm

boerje wrote:
On arrival, after flying for about 11 hours, our business traveller would have his/her internal clock at 10:00 PM. He/she might need some strong coffee to stay awake for another 15 hours.


This doesn't make any sense as leaving at 15:00 means that (s)he will arrive at 02:00AM according to its internal clock.

amax1977 wrote:
Happy Holidays pals!

Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe? A flight that could leave LAX at 11:00 AM would arrive LHR next morning at 6:00 AM and that would be a perfect flight for a business traveler. But, there is no airline with a morning flight from anywhere in the West Coast to Europe... All flights from the West Coast to Europe are after 3:00 PM.

Cheers,
Alan


I think one major reason is that slots at 06:00AM can be used more effectively by other flights. Moreover, an European airline will leave around 10:00CET in order to get the first inbound wave from across Europe into its hub. This means its aircraft will arrive at LAX around noon. Therefore, it cannot leave LAX before 14:00 LA time. US airlines could leave earlier, but why schedule a departure ex Europe before 10:00CET? Most US airlines also get feed from other cities in Europe (or beyond). Moreover, not all flights are after 15:00 ex LAX. KLM departs around 14:00 if I'm not mistaken.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:44 pm

In reverse there are no early morning departures to the west coast, first one is around 09:30 arriving 1pm.
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tobsw
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:56 pm

Isn't this based on culture - historical reasons?

There are night flights to/from Europe to Mexico City (in both directions) with early arrival. But there are none to US West Coast.
Last edited by tobsw on Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DAL763ER
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:58 pm

Like others have said, it doesn't really make sense from a slot use or traveler use of time point of view.

That said, there is at least one exception: in the summer, United 901 has a 12:15pm departure from SFO, arriving at LHR at 6:55am. It's a good arrival time into London, but since one can't really do any work or personal errands on the day of departure, it results in a wasted day.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:07 pm

tobsw wrote:
Isn't this based on culture - historical reasons?

There are night flights to/from Europe to Mexico City (in both directions) with early arrival. But there are none to US West Coast.


Most any carrier choices that aren't based in treaty rights or slot/gate availability are based in aircraft utilization or projected yields. IMHO there aren't enough LAX/LON travelers who find the OP's idea appealing. After a sleepless 11 hour flight in coach LAX-LON the last thing I want to face is 16 hours of forced awakeness in LON. You can say it works for business travelers in lie-flat seats but who can sleep at noon or 1PM when eastbound?
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:16 pm

BA's SEA - LHR flight arrives at 07.05
 
VS11
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:18 pm

amax1977 wrote:
Happy Holidays pals!

Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe? A flight that could leave LAX at 11:00 AM would arrive LHR next morning at 6:00 AM and that would be a perfect flight for a business traveler. But, there is no airline with a morning flight from anywhere in the West Coast to Europe... All flights from the West Coast to Europe are after 3:00 PM.

Cheers,
Alan


The same result can be achieved by taking a morning flight from LAX to Boston, NYC or Philly and then an evening flight to Europe, arriving early morning in Europe. There is more choice of airlines and destinations from the East Coast anyway.
 
EK770
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:26 pm

DL has a midday flight from LAX to CDG leaving at 12.20, arriving 8.15
Last edited by EK770 on Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
amc737
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm

Pan Am at times use to have an early Los Angeles to Heathrow, times varied season to season but PA120 left as 12:00pm and arrived at Heathrow at 06.15am the next day.

I suspect this is entirely down to scheduling, for European airlines to operate an early departure from the West Coast would require either a night stopping aircraft in LAX etc or a late departure from Europe, even than the latest you could depart from say London would be 22:00 getting into LAX at 02:00 local which isn't to appealing for onward connections both air and ground.

US carriers can operate an early departure from the West Coast as they have inbound aircraft from the Pacific that can be turned around and depart to Europe but again most European airports don't really open fully until 06:00 and have limited slots before than so realistically the earliest you could depart LAX is 11:00-12 to ensure you don't hit a curfew at Heathrow /Frankfurt as Pan Am times indicate.

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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:36 pm

amc737 wrote:
Pan Am at times use to have an early Los Angeles to Heathrow, times varied season to season but PA120 left as 12:00pm and arrived at Heathrow at 06.15am the next day.

I suspect this is entirely down to scheduling, for European airlines to operate an early departure from the West Coast would require either a night stopping aircraft in LAX etc or a late departure from Europe, even than the latest you could depart from say London would be 22:00 getting into LAX at 02:00 local which isn't to appealing for onward connections both air and ground.

US carriers can operate an early departure from the West Coast as they have inbound aircraft from the Pacific that can be turned around and depart to Europe but again most European airports don't really open fully until 06:00 and have limited slots before than so realistically the earliest you could depart LAX is 11:00-12 to ensure you don't hit a curfew at Heathrow /Frankfurt as Pan Am times indicate.

amc737


I remember doing a similar LAX-LHR on a flight in the early 70s then connecting with a LH 727 for the hop over to THF. Could that flight been the one your are referring to?
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:38 pm

amax1977 wrote:
A flight that could leave LAX at 11:00 AM would arrive LHR next morning at 6:00 AM ...


Which means passengers would expect lunch, dinner and breakfast on board. Sounds expensive. If you fly four hours later, the airline will get away with only dinner and breakfast.

(Written partly in jest...)
 
mdavies06
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:48 pm

A few possible reasons that come to mind:
-Majority of onward connections ex-Europe are short hops, so there is less need to arrive in Europe early. Contrast this with say QF/NZ TPAC flights, with majority of their arrivals landing into LAX/SFO in the early morning from down under. Historically this is required as connections to the US East Coast accounts for a large portion of the traffics, and flying coast to coast can take 4-6 hours.
-Historically many people travel to Europe with connections to Middle East, Asia and Africa. Nowadays there are more choices via UA, AI, EK, TK and so on.
-Morning landing slots into slot constrained airports like LHR, FRA, AMS are required for shorter TATL flights.
-As someone above just mentioned, late morning departure out of US West Coast is only practical for US3, but not Euro carriers unless the latter run a schedule that sees them night stop a plane in US West Coast...and also unless,...
-Unless Euro carriers start running redeye Europe to US West Coast westbound flights, which there are none due to curfew at the European airport end, and other reasons.
-Finally, as someone also mentioned, there are still ways to do the same flights by doing a stop in the US East Coast airports. This can be done by departing US West Coast in the morning, arriving into a US East Coast airport in the afternoon, transfer to a TATL flight that will arrive in the early morning.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
After a sleepless 11 hour flight in coach LAX-LON the last thing I want to face is 16 hours of forced awakeness in LON. You can say it works for business travelers in lie-flat seats but who can sleep at noon or 1PM when eastbound?


This is going to sound horrible, but, when it comes down to it, airlines are far more worried about the people sitting up front than those in coach.

From a personal point of view I would love an early departure, get into LHR around 8-10am, go to the arrivals lounge, grab a shower and breakfast, head into the city,
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:40 pm

You also have to consider aircraft availability for airlines not based in LAX (eg BA or VS). To have a 11am flight out of LAX you either have to have a plane sitting in LAX all night, or a ridiculously early (eg 4am) departure out of LHR.

The former is not appealing from a utilization standpoint ( could a daytime flight generate enough revenue to cover that poor utilization?), and the latter is not really appealing to anyone.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:15 pm

Morning departures from the US West Coast to Europe permit an early to mid-morning arrival, enabling more connections and better suited for business travelers that hope/want to get part of a full day's work. Also allows for turnarounds back to the West Coast. These are 10-11 hour stage length flights.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:17 pm

In the 90s United had a 777-200ER from SFO to LHR, dep 1200, arr 0600+1. I took that flight and it nearly broke me. I was a mess for a week. Not just sleep patterns hopelessly, horribly out of whack but tearful and anxious and really upset. My worst jetlag experience, which is saying something.

The best timings for west coast to Europe are to leave as late as possible (BA’s 268 being a star pupil, dep 2100 arr 1600+1) or route via the east coast with a short red eye eg LAX EWR connecting to a day tripper across the pond, land at 2000 and home to bed. Landing at dawn, and your body clock thinks it’s midnight (LA time) is a recipe for real health and emotional problems.
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:22 pm

Leisure traveller's arriving in London prior to noon will not be able to checkin to a hotel after such a long flight, some hotels even have 3pm checkin
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:38 pm

VS11 wrote:
amax1977 wrote:
Happy Holidays pals!

Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe? A flight that could leave LAX at 11:00 AM would arrive LHR next morning at 6:00 AM and that would be a perfect flight for a business traveler. But, there is no airline with a morning flight from anywhere in the West Coast to Europe... All flights from the West Coast to Europe are after 3:00 PM.

Cheers,
Alan


The same result can be achieved by taking a morning flight from LAX to Boston, NYC or Philly and then an evening flight to Europe, arriving early morning in Europe. There is more choice of airlines and destinations from the East Coast anyway.


That’s way too much work for business travel and extra travel time. Most West Coasters I know would prefer to connect in Europe if they have to connect at all.

As mentioned the early United SFO-LHR gets in at 6:55 and works well for the OPs purpose.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:11 pm

TN PPT-LAX-CDG flight departs LAX 11:35 arrives CDG 07:20 next morning.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:09 pm

From LAX ateast, historically a few such as PA, TW, and UA have tried such flights, but as we've seen they have not stuck around which should tell us the market is not as receptive to such departure time.

Also the point about aircraft utilization is important as for European operators it likely means overnighting an aircraft on the U.S. end.
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:09 pm

The seasonal DI flight from SEA-LGW arrives at 6-7 AM. I’ve flown it twice and it can be pretty brutal, both times we have had afternoon or evening train/ferry connections out of London and that meant staying awake a full day after a sleepless flight. Arriving that early at LGW, however, queues for immigration are super short and you can be eating breakfast in central London before 8.

But it’s all about aircraft utilization. As has been said, nobody wants to hop a 4-5 AM flight out of Europe... and that’s the only way to have a plane turn on the west coast in the morning.
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tobsw
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:24 pm

I believe it's all about historical reason. Well, not historical per se, but "it has always been like this". Look at routes from Asia to Europa... pretty much the majority al late evening departures from Asia and early arrivals en Europe. And mid-day departures from Europa and early arrivals (again) in Asia. HKG-LHR is pretty similar to LHR-LAX.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:38 pm

From United's perspective, I know the years they ran LAX-LHR with noonish departure it virtually always had lower front cabin demand than dinner time departures.

Even AA which has for years been offering double daily LAX-LHR offers two tightly spaced evening departures.

Anecdotally, not too long was speaking with a QF network person and asked about their lack of LAX-SYD daytime option and was told the few times they tried such service it generated far worse results than the typical late night West Coast departure and the daytime service did not fit well within their network connection traffic flows.

Basically, in many ways, airline service patterns have developed over many decades and have settled on timings that work best for demand and profits.
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AA747123
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:59 pm

I actually prefer a later arrival into Europe. I typically will fly LAX-:LHR-FRA, and arrive FRA in the early evening around 1800 or so. Go out for dinner, a few beers. Full night sleep then good to go the next day.
 
alan3
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:56 pm

Also, since a lot of Asian flights leave in the late morning/early afternoon it gives the airport a balance of long haul departures. I know at YVR, for example, a large bulk of Asian flights leave between 10:30am - 1:30pm and most European flights leave late afternoon through evening. There wouldn't be enough gate slots if so many long haul flights left at the same time. Conversely most East Coast to Europe flights arrive in Europe in early morning. They may not have enough arrival gate slots on the Europe side to have West Coast and East Coast flights arrive at the same time..

Not sure if that is a consideration for any airlines but just a thought.
Last edited by alan3 on Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
Prost
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:58 pm

The hypothetical business person making important decisions in Europe that first day, I’d need to double check their work.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:05 pm

I would rather see a super late departure (the opposite of what you suggest). Leave a 11pm, arrive at 6pm the next day! That would be perfect! Get back to hotel, and get to bed by 10pm and ready for next day! United tends to fly their Europe flights way earlier in the day than Lufthansa does and I wish they pushed back their times by several hours from the midwest and west coast.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:13 pm

joeljack wrote:
I would rather see a super late departure (the opposite of what you suggest). Leave a 11pm, arrive at 6pm the next day! That would be perfect! Get back to hotel, and get to bed by 10pm and ready for next day! United tends to fly their Europe flights way earlier in the day than Lufthansa does and I wish they pushed back their times by several hours from the midwest and west coast.


I guess if you are trying to feed onward connections, as UA would be in a Skyteam hub like FRA, you don't want the flights to arrive too late as it would limit such options.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:48 pm

This is a very interesting thought experiment. I decided to research how BA's flights from North America are timed.

SEA BA52 (4-class 772): 1335-0705+1 (Thu-Sat)
SFO BA284 (Super Hi J): 1610-1035+1
LAX BA282 (Super Hi J): 1620-1045+1
SEA BA48 (4-class 772): 1825-1150+1
PDX BA298 (788, starting 6/1/2020): 1845-1210+1 (ex Tues/Thur)
LAX BA280 (Super Hi J): 1825-1245+1 (ex Tues)
SAN BA272 (Mid J): 1835-1305+1 (ex Tues, T3)
YVR BA84 (Mid J): 2110-1430+1 (T3)
SFO BA286 (388): 2025-1500+1
LAX BA268 (388): 2105-1525+1

And now here is a list of BA flights to the Near East, India and Africa, roughly split into 6am-noon, noon-6pm, 6-8pm and 8pm-midnight groups.

Tel Aviv BA165 0805
Lagos BA75 0950
Mumbai BA139 0955
Jeddah BA133 1005 (ex Mon/Wed)
Nairobi BA65 1010 (T3)
Delhi BA143 1115
Bahrain/Dammam BA125 1130

Dubai BA107 1235
Abu Dhabi BA73 1320
Riyadh BA263 1325
Bangalore BA119 1345
Chennai BA35 1410
Hyderabad BA277 1440
Amman BA147 1440 (Ex Tue, 1500 departure on Fri)
Beirut BA149 1515 (ex Thu)
Durban BA41 1555 (Mon/Tue/Sat)
Islamabad BA261 1735 (Mon/Tue/Sat)

Johannesburg BA55 1810
Cape Town BA43 1815 (T3)
Delhi BA257 1850
Doha BA123 1930
Muscat BA79 1945 (Wed-Sat)

Cairo BA155 2030
Dubai BA105 2040
Mumbai BA199 2040
Tel Aviv BA163 2110
Johannesburg BA57 2110
Dubai BA109 2125
Cape Town BA59 2130 (T3)
Mumbai BA135 2135 (Mon/Tue/Sat)
Kuwait BA157 2155
Abuja BA83 2230

BA recommends an hour for an intra-T5 connection, and 90 minutes for a T5 to T3 connection.
-The morning flights from SFO, LAX, and both flights from SEA are timed to connect with the afternoon flights to DXB, AUH, RUH, BLR and MAA.
-The evening flights from SFO and LAX are timed to connect with the evening flights to ISB, JNB, DEL, DOH, CAI, DXB and BOM. However, the usage of A380s make me think that O&D traffic is also important for the evening flights.
-YVR and SAN seem to cater more to O&D traffic to the UK, due to their awkward arrival times at LHR, using the Mid-J 744, and arrival at Terminal 3. For instance, the flight from YVR misses the connections to Lagos, Nairobi, Abu Dhabi, Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderabad. Such routings require an overnight stay in London, a 2-stop Star Alliance itinerary via London and Mumbai (which means the super-cramped Air Canada 777 and the terrible Air India product), or connecting via Frankfurt or Amsterdam instead. It's either that or connecting in LAX/SEA on EK and having to face U.S. border preclearance. Now most Vancouver-India is VFR traffic going to DEL and as such won't mind an overnight stay, but business travellers (especially tech traffic between Vancouver and Bangalore/Hyderabad) are a different story.
-In terms of competition in the Near East/India/Africa market: EK has daily 388s to SFO and LAX, and a daily 77W to SEA. EY formerly had had daily 77Ls to SFO and LAX, but due to their death spiral and Trump's Muslim ban, discontinued SFO and reduced LAX to 3 weekly. QR has daily 77L service to LAX and has never served SFO (they were planning daily 77L service January 2018, then pushed to June with a 77W, then finally scrapped), and the diplomatic standoff/blockade by Saudi/UAE complicates QR's growth potential. No Gulf carrier has ever served YVR, PDX or SAN.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:24 am

AA tried a morning LAX-LHR during the Summer of 1993, and I can say from personal experience that it was perpetually empty in all cabins. At the time, both of AA’s LAX-LHR flights were operated with 767-300, and while the morning flight was empty, the evening flight on the same day would be full.

The return LHR-LAX flight added that summer would arrive into LAX about 8 PM. I loved it. All was quiet when I got home and the phone wasn’t ringing.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:43 am

readytotaxi wrote:
In reverse there are no early morning departures to the west coast, first one is around 09:30 arriving 1pm.

Great question with a Good reply! Kudos.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:50 am

MonAmQB wrote:
boerje wrote:
On arrival, after flying for about 11 hours, our business traveller would have his/her internal clock at 10:00 PM. He/she might need some strong coffee to stay awake for another 15 hours.


I have done similar flights, although not to Europe. After a full day of work in east coast, catch the midnight departure DL ATL-ICN flight, arriving at ICN at 5am. Arriving at the city by 7am, just in time for a day of work. By the time I get to bed, it feels like a REALLY looong day.

But you left the US late, possibly got to sleep between 2am-3am after the bar and food service and hopefully got a big chunk of sleep. Arriving in Seoul at 5am your body probably thought it was a lot later but you'd essentially had a late night.

Doing what the OP suggests is basically trying to sleep in the daytime on a 12-hour flight and hoping that you can go the office in London when your body clock thinks it is bedtime in LA!

Ultimately airlines try to match passenger preference with aircraft utilisation, slot restraints and maximising connection opportunities if to/from a hub. Sometimes compromises have to be made, but they are rare.

Given BA has been flying four times daily LHR-LAX in the recent past and even the 787 flight wasn't timed for an a.m. LAX departure it would suggest the demand isn't there. At least not profitably.
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umichman
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:07 am

TC957 wrote:
BA's SEA - LHR flight arrives at 07.05


And UA is shifting one of it's SFO-LHR frequencies in late March to depart around noon (instead of 4 PM) arriving in LHR at 6:55AM. Not quite morning departures, but pretty close.
Last edited by umichman on Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:41 am

FlyingJhawk wrote:

I remember doing a similar LAX-LHR on a flight in the early 70s then connecting with a LH 727 for the hop over to THF. Could that flight been the one your are referring to?


That would have been a PA 727 as LH never flew into THF.
Last edited by JayBCN on Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:43 am

FlyingJhawk wrote:

I remember doing a similar LAX-LHR on a flight in the early 70s then connecting with a LH 727 for the hop over to THF. Could that flight been the one your are referring to?


That would have been a PA 727 as LH was not allowed to fly into Berlin before 1989.
 
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:58 am

umichman wrote:
And UA is shifting one of it's SFO-LHR frequencies in late March to depart around noon (instead of 4 PM) arriving in LHR at 6:55AM. Not quite morning departures, but pretty close.


First of all, you might think 10h 35m + 11h 10m = 21h 45m which leaves a little over 1 hour in each terminus (SFO and LHR) to fit one round trip into a 24 hour day. But of course, UA does not try to do that trick.

Departing 3:05 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Arriving 9:40 am London, GB (LHR) Nonstop 10h 35m
Departing 7:30 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Arriving 2:05 pm London, GB (LHR) Nonstop 10h 35m

Departing 9:20 am London, GB (LHR) Arriving 12:30 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Nonstop 11h 10m
Departing 11:35 am London, GB (LHR) Arriving 2:45 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Nonstop 11h 10m

It took a long time for a flight to leave NYC area at around 7 AM and arrive in LHR at 7 PM (5 time zones) even though it would seem that is a natural travel day. It took the airlines many decades before they added day flights to London instead of just overnight flights. The reason had everything to do with efficient use of expensive aircraft and little or nothing to do with a businessman's natural sleep pattern. Millions of businessmen tried to sleep on an airplane and have a productive day at the office in London on a bad nights sleep on a jet. Of course, this created a natural desire to spend the money for lie flat seats. Eventually jets became more numerous and competition became more intesnsee so that day flights were added.

I expect that whatever rotation that United uses for those two jets would be much more difficult if they left at 11AM. The fact that they are now shifting to a noon departure means that the competition has grown fiercer
 
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intotheair
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:20 am

DAL763ER wrote:
Like others have said, it doesn't really make sense from a slot use or traveler use of time point of view.

That said, there is at least one exception: in the summer, United 901 has a 12:15pm departure from SFO, arriving at LHR at 6:55am. It's a good arrival time into London, but since one can't really do any work or personal errands on the day of departure, it results in a wasted day.


I took this in May. It’s definitely a weird one as they serve a “lunch” and then breakfast. It also doesn’t really get dark outside either. The flight time is good for me because I work on European time in the US (i.e. overnights), though I’m certainly in the minority there.

I don’t think the flight included a snack midway through, though the UA westbound returns from Europe to SFO and LAX definitely do.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
hereandthere41
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:14 am

PacoMartin wrote:
umichman wrote:
And UA is shifting one of it's SFO-LHR frequencies in late March to depart around noon (instead of 4 PM) arriving in LHR at 6:55AM. Not quite morning departures, but pretty close.


First of all, you might think 10h 35m + 11h 10m = 21h 45m which leaves a little over 1 hour in each terminus (SFO and LHR) to fit one round trip into a 24 hour day. But of course, UA does not try to do that trick.

Departing 3:05 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Arriving 9:40 am London, GB (LHR) Nonstop 10h 35m
Departing 7:30 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Arriving 2:05 pm London, GB (LHR) Nonstop 10h 35m

Departing 9:20 am London, GB (LHR) Arriving 12:30 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Nonstop 11h 10m
Departing 11:35 am London, GB (LHR) Arriving 2:45 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Nonstop 11h 10m

It took a long time for a flight to leave NYC area at around 7 AM and arrive in LHR at 7 PM (5 time zones) even though it would seem that is a natural travel day. It took the airlines many decades before they added day flights to London instead of just overnight flights. The reason had everything to do with efficient use of expensive aircraft and little or nothing to do with a businessman's natural sleep pattern. Millions of businessmen tried to sleep on an airplane and have a productive day at the office in London on a bad nights sleep on a jet. Of course, this created a natural desire to spend the money for lie flat seats. Eventually jets became more numerous and competition became more intesnsee so that day flights were added.

I expect that whatever rotation that United uses for those two jets would be much more difficult if they left at 11AM. The fact that they are now shifting to a noon departure means that the competition has grown fiercer


More often than not, the inbound aircraft turn for other US hubs. It's not guaranteed to return to the same city. UA/LHR has 7 US gateways with 18 flights.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:53 am

MonAmQB wrote:
boerje wrote:
On arrival, after flying for about 11 hours, our business traveller would have his/her internal clock at 10:00 PM. He/she might need some strong coffee to stay awake for another 15 hours.


I have done similar flights, although not to Europe. After a full day of work in east coast, catch the midnight departure DL ATL-ICN flight, arriving at ICN at 5am. Arriving at the city by 7am, just in time for a day of work. By the time I get to bed, it feels like a REALLY looong day.


Why not just take some sleeping pills for the flight to ICN and wake up well rested?
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:41 pm

Yeah, your'e right now that I think about it. I was getting confused with our return on an LH 707 from FRA to ORD. A few things I remember from that LH flight. We boarded at a remote stand, my mom and I sat next to an FBI agent and IIRC there was some circular display inside the cabin that supposedly had the position of the stars above us. I wondered how they could do that since the entire flight was in the daytime.

PacoMartin wrote:
umichman wrote:
And UA is shifting one of it's SFO-LHR frequencies in late March to depart around noon (instead of 4 PM) arriving in LHR at 6:55AM. Not quite morning departures, but pretty close.


First of all, you might think 10h 35m + 11h 10m = 21h 45m which leaves a little over 1 hour in each terminus (SFO and LHR) to fit one round trip into a 24 hour day. But of course, UA does not try to do that trick.

Departing 3:05 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Arriving 9:40 am London, GB (LHR) Nonstop 10h 35m
Departing 7:30 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Arriving 2:05 pm London, GB (LHR) Nonstop 10h 35m

Departing 9:20 am London, GB (LHR) Arriving 12:30 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Nonstop 11h 10m
Departing 11:35 am London, GB (LHR) Arriving 2:45 pm San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) Nonstop 11h 10m

It took a long time for a flight to leave NYC area at around 7 AM and arrive in LHR at 7 PM (5 time zones) even though it would seem that is a natural travel day. It took the airlines many decades before they added day flights to London instead of just overnight flights. The reason had everything to do with efficient use of expensive aircraft and little or nothing to do with a businessman's natural sleep pattern. Millions of businessmen tried to sleep on an airplane and have a productive day at the office in London on a bad nights sleep on a jet. Of course, this created a natural desire to spend the money for lie flat seats. Eventually jets became more numerous and competition became more intesnsee so that day flights were added.

I expect that whatever rotation that United uses for those two jets would be much more difficult if they left at 11AM. The fact that they are now shifting to a noon departure means that the competition has grown fiercer
 
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N62NA
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:06 pm

Prost wrote:
The hypothetical business person making important decisions in Europe that first day, I’d need to double check their work.


Exactly. Whenever one of these topics about flying all night, arriving at the destination many time zones away to be able to "conduct a full day of business" comes up, I point out the same thing. We're talking people, not robots.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:07 pm

That would probably only work, high season, not daily, and exclusively by UA from SFO to Star Alliance hubs already flown with afternoon departures.
Example SFO-FRA and SFO-MUC with arrivals in Germany 0600-0700h.
Regarding to London, unless UA could get LHR slots between 0600-0700h, a SFO-LHR before noon departure is out of the question; however, if UA choses to fly to either LGW or STN, then 0500-0600h arrivals for UA morning service to LON flights might be possible.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
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N62NA
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:09 pm

leftcoast8 wrote:
In terms of competition in the Near East/India/Africa market: EK has daily 388s to SFO and LAX, and a daily 77W to SEA. EY formerly had had daily 77Ls to SFO and LAX, but due to their death spiral and Trump's Muslim ban,.


Point of clarification: There has never been a "Muslim ban" proposed nor instituted by President Trump.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:35 pm

par13del wrote:
Leisure traveller's arriving in London prior to noon will not be able to checkin to a hotel after such a long flight, some hotels even have 3pm checkin

What about the many, many daily flights from the U.S. east coast that arrive in Europe between 06.00 am and 10.00 am? Why would arriving early in the morning be a problem for a west coast flight, but not for an east coast flight?
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:54 pm

joeljack wrote:
I would rather see a super late departure (the opposite of what you suggest). Leave a 11pm, arrive at 6pm the next day! That would be perfect! Get back to hotel, and get to bed by 10pm and ready for next day!

Personally I prefer flights that leave between 13.00 and 15.00. As flights from Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles for example to my home airport Amsterdam usually take 9 to 9,5 hours, that means arriving shortly before midnight U.S. time, so I won't have to sit through the night. On arrival the clock goes forward nine hours and it suddenly is between 07.00 and 09.00. I have zero problems with that nowadays, because the daylight gives me enough energy to stay awake until European bedtime.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 985
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Why there are no morning flights from US West Coast to Europe?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:14 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
In reverse there are no early morning departures to the west coast, first one is around 09:30 arriving 1pm.

Departures from Amsterdam usually arrive a bit earlier than that.

KLM AMS - SFO 09.50 - 11.45
KLM AMS - LAX 09.50 - 11.55
Delta AMS - SEA 09.55 - 11.06
Delta AMS - PDX 10.00 - 11.30

I have done AMS - SFO in a mere 9,5 hours. With a nine hour time difference you arrive only 30 minutes after departure, well before midday.

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