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MartijnNL
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:53 pm

Bostrom wrote:
BRA's plan to return to the skies before Christmas has been postponed until February. The plan is then to start a few routes from BMA; Umeå, Malmö, Göteborg, Visby, Ängelholm and maybe one or two more. But they have two active ATRs that have been flying a couple of charters since September.

Let's hope BRA will return to the air. Last April I was supposed to experience this airline for the first time. I had tickets booked and paid for four segments within Sweden. Two of those would be operated by Fokker 50 aircraft. I had been really looking forward to this journey. But all I got was a lousy voucher. Hopefully one day I can use it to travel on BRA.

Yes. This is my 1.000th post on this website.
And it is also the 1.000th reply to this thread.
 
minilinde
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:16 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:40 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
A new Norwegian airline plan to start up in 2021, with 5 either A320s og 737-800s. Seems like the Braathens family is involved, which own BRA, and several former Norwegian employees

No info about name of the airline

In Norwegian:
https://kommunikasjon.ntb.no/pressemeld ... d=17893264


And the name will be: Flyr (To fly, in Norwegian)

https://www.flyr.no/


Looks like a serious player to come. Will be interesting to follow them. Any news/guesses on aircraft type and fleer size? 737 vs A320 vs A220?
Types flown: A220, A318, A319, A320, A321, A32N, A333, A343, A359, A380, AT42, AT72, B717, B733, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739, B744, B748, B763, B772, B773, B788, B789, C550, CRJ2, CRJ9, DH4D, F50, ERJ190, MD80s/90, RJ100
 
davidjohnson6
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:18 pm

Is there space for a 4th domestic carrier in Norway, alongside SAS, Wideroe and Wizz ? (and that's assuming Norwegian doesn't surprise us all by somehow surviving)
The population of Norway may have high propensity to fly due to the geography, but there's only so much traffic to go round all the carriers


Separately, on BRA, they used to fly Trollhattan-Stockholm 3x daily due (in part) to Trollhattan being their engineering centre (I think). Is Trollhattan planned to retain this role for BRA ?
 
Bostrom
Posts: 1114
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:49 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Let's hope BRA will return to the air. Last April I was supposed to experience this airline for the first time. I had tickets booked and paid for four segments within Sweden. Two of those would be operated by Fokker 50 aircraft. I had been really looking forward to this journey. But all I got was a lousy voucher. Hopefully one day I can use it to travel on BRA.


If BRA doesn't survive, there is still Amapola using F50s on a couple of domestic routes in Sweden.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:56 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Is there space for a 4th domestic carrier in Norway, alongside SAS, Wideroe and Wizz ? (and that's assuming Norwegian doesn't surprise us all by somehow surviving)
The population of Norway may have high propensity to fly due to the geography, but there's only so much traffic to go round all the carriers


The bad shape of the railway network in Norway means it is a big market for airlines. The 3 biggest domestic routes (Oslo to Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger) are all among the top 15 busiest air routes in the EEA.
 
M564038
Posts: 651
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:54 pm

No, no, no

Literal translation of FLYR is FLYING

As «I am flying there», which could also be said as «I am going to fly there» but the direct norwegian translation of that would be «skal fly», but FLYR in this sense is FLYING.


Someone83 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
A new Norwegian airline plan to start up in 2021, with 5 either A320s og 737-800s. Seems like the Braathens family is involved, which own BRA, and several former Norwegian employees

No info about name of the airline

In Norwegian:
https://kommunikasjon.ntb.no/pressemeld ... d=17893264


And the name will be: Flyr (To fly, in Norwegian)

https://www.flyr.no/
 
M564038
Posts: 651
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:08 am

No.
There is not room for 4.
3 has been tried many times before and has not worked. The only things that has worked has been the duopolies of SAS/Braathens and SAS/Norwegian.

FLYR can get amazing leasing deals and low operating cost with a great, experienced crew.
They will have the lowest real cost, and hopefully/probably a high quality operation.
Let’s not forget that their team consists of some very key people that has run Norwegian/Braathens/SAS with surplus domestically before.

Wizz might not make it. I think they have limitas to how much money they bother losing on such an insignificant country. They are under a boycott that stretches even out to the far right of politics because of their employment policies.
A company like LIDL lasted for a very short time, and there has been numerous examples of large international companies failing in getting a foothold in Norway because of pure nationalistic pride over a few things Norwegians keep holy.
Air transport along the coast, a life nerve, bloodline, a system of airborne all-weather Vikings doing the job real norwegians has done for thousands of years a long the coast is not left to a «bunch of corona-infected gay-hating non-unionized poles» as a family-member put it blunt.
People are not, rightly or wrongly, ready for Wizz.

SAS and Norwegian we know most there is to know about, but lets remember that the domestic norwegian market has always made good money for both of them.

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Is there space for a 4th domestic carrier in Norway, alongside SAS, Wideroe and Wizz ? (and that's assuming Norwegian doesn't surprise us all by somehow surviving)
The population of Norway may have high propensity to fly due to the geography, but there's only so much traffic to go round all the carriers


Separately, on BRA, they used to fly Trollhattan-Stockholm 3x daily due (in part) to Trollhattan being their engineering centre (I think). Is Trollhattan planned to retain this role for BRA ?
 
Blerg
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:59 am

Flyr states on their website that they plan on linking Norwegian airports with European ones. They might not be aiming at the domestic market but rather at taking over the international traffic from Norwegian. This would make sense especially since SAS has a rather weak international network out of Oslo.
 
Blerg
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:43 am

According to DY's website, they are boosting BEG-OSL from 3 to 4 weekly next summer. Pretty ambitious of them given the amount of competition that will operate on this route.

Also, it's behind a paywall but it seems DY is launching a new destination to BEG. I wonder which one.

https://www.exyuaviation.com/
 
a350lover
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:03 am

Blerg wrote:
Flyr states on their website that they plan on linking Norwegian airports with European ones. They might not be aiming at the domestic market but rather at taking over the international traffic from Norwegian. This would make sense especially since SAS has a rather weak international network out of Oslo.


Any hints on what fleet could they be looking at?
 
a350lover
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:04 am

Blerg wrote:
According to DY's website, they are boosting BEG-OSL from 3 to 4 weekly next summer. Pretty ambitious of them given the amount of competition that will operate on this route.

Also, it's behind a paywall but it seems DY is launching a new destination to BEG. I wonder which one.

https://www.exyuaviation.com/


Honestly, 95% of what Norwegian has on the website for sale isn't really gonna happen anyway.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13568
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:59 pm

M564038 wrote:

Wizz might not make it. I think they have limitas to how much money they bother losing on such an insignificant country. They are under a boycott that stretches even out to the far right of politics because of their employment policies.
A company like LIDL lasted for a very short time, and there has been numerous examples of large international companies failing in getting a foothold in Norway because of pure nationalistic pride over a few things Norwegians keep holy.


I never understood why the Norwegians hated Lidl, there was nothing wrong with them. They were easily better then REMA1000 and on par with Kiwi.

The worst day for me was when ICA left, we had an ICA Maxi in Molde, it was an excellent supermarket. Now we have a shitty Coop Mega and far too many budget supermarkets to count.

M564038 wrote:
Air transport along the coast, a life nerve, bloodline, a system of airborne all-weather Vikings doing the job real norwegians has done for thousands of years a long the coast is not left to a «bunch of corona-infected gay-hating non-unionized poles» as a family-member put it blunt.
People are not, rightly or wrongly, ready for Wizz.

SAS and Norwegian we know most there is to know about, but lets remember that the domestic norwegian market has always made good money for both of them.



I won't fly Wizz, I have the same dislike for there hiring practices as I have for Norwegians, I made a point to not fly Norwegian unless there was no other choice. The last year has been a year of WF, 9 return flights to Stavanger and WF, apart from the first leg of the return journey Stavanger Bergen on SAS. WF's aircraft are becoming very tired, I guess their problem is what do they buy to replace them with??
 
minilinde
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:16 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:25 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
WF's aircraft are becoming very tired, I guess their problem is what do they buy to replace them with??


There isn’t a natural replacement of the smaller Q1/200 aircraft, and not even the Q400.
Jets is probably too expensive on trip cost, so in a world where the only real turboprop you can finance is a ATR, which doesn’t cope with the Norwegian winters that well, there isn’t a replacement. Maybe a launch customer for the new Embraer concept, but that is years away...
Types flown: A220, A318, A319, A320, A321, A32N, A333, A343, A359, A380, AT42, AT72, B717, B733, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739, B744, B748, B763, B772, B773, B788, B789, C550, CRJ2, CRJ9, DH4D, F50, ERJ190, MD80s/90, RJ100
 
Someone83
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:45 pm

a350lover wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Flyr states on their website that they plan on linking Norwegian airports with European ones. They might not be aiming at the domestic market but rather at taking over the international traffic from Norwegian. This would make sense especially since SAS has a rather weak international network out of Oslo.


Any hints on what fleet could they be looking at?


737 og A320. I do expect 737 as they can get fully trained 737 for «free» at the moment, from those that has lost their jobs in SAS and Norwegian
 
Someone83
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:46 pm

Blerg wrote:
Flyr states on their website that they plan on linking Norwegian airports with European ones. They might not be aiming at the domestic market but rather at taking over the international traffic from Norwegian. This would make sense especially since SAS has a rather weak international network out of Oslo.


So which main destinations from OSL is/was really missing?
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:17 pm

How long do Wideroe have before their Dash 8 fleet likely starts experiencing large numbers of technical issues due to old aircraft ? I know there is no singledaye when everything suddenly starts failing, but wondering how long Wideroe can likely keep kicking the can down the road...
 
minilinde
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:16 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:48 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
How long do Wideroe have before their Dash 8 fleet likely starts experiencing large numbers of technical issues due to old aircraft ? I know there is no singledaye when everything suddenly starts failing, but wondering how long Wideroe can likely keep kicking the can down the road...


The oldest are LN-WIP (MSN 239), delivered to Tyrolean Airways back in October 1990. They can’t have more then 5-7 years of life, on the oldest individuals, left.
Types flown: A220, A318, A319, A320, A321, A32N, A333, A343, A359, A380, AT42, AT72, B717, B733, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739, B744, B748, B763, B772, B773, B788, B789, C550, CRJ2, CRJ9, DH4D, F50, ERJ190, MD80s/90, RJ100
 
EFHK
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:32 pm

I do not know the full technical details, but Widerøe is running some kind of life extension program on the Dash 8-100s.

https://www.wideroetechnical.com/extended-service
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:38 pm

M564038 wrote:
Air transport along the coast, a life nerve, bloodline, a system of airborne all-weather Vikings doing the job real norwegians has done for thousands of years along the coast is not left to a «bunch of corona-infected gay-hating non-unionized poles» as a family-member put it blunt.

:shock: . . . :D

And why would you select an airline that offers 3 weekly flights when the other companies operate multiple daily flights to the same destinations?
 
Blerg
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:08 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Flyr states on their website that they plan on linking Norwegian airports with European ones. They might not be aiming at the domestic market but rather at taking over the international traffic from Norwegian. This would make sense especially since SAS has a rather weak international network out of Oslo.


So which main destinations from OSL is/was really missing?


I don't think anything is missing, I rather think they want to replace DY (or maybe even SK) on some routes they operate at the moment. Will be interesting to see what kind of network they introduce ... I suppose soon enough.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 567
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:49 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Air transport along the coast, a life nerve, bloodline, a system of airborne all-weather Vikings doing the job real norwegians has done for thousands of years along the coast is not left to a «bunch of corona-infected gay-hating non-unionized poles» as a family-member put it blunt.

:shock: . . . :D

And why would you select an airline that offers 3 weekly flights when the other companies operate multiple daily flights to the same destinations?


Maybe €€€ makes the day ?
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:54 am

MartijnNL wrote:
And why would you select an airline that offers 3 weekly flights when the other companies operate multiple daily flights to the same destinations?


And why not? If the price is right and the schedule works for you, why pay $130-180 per flight versus $30-50, for as long as it’s available.

I’ve flown Wizz on domestic Norwegian routes 6 times in the last month and have nothing bad to say. And to be honest at least they sell BOB products during the flights and that option is there. Both Norwegian and SAS flight attendants are so quick to draw their curtains immediately after takeoff and start yapping with each other nowadays, zero on board product.
 
Blerg
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:11 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
And why would you select an airline that offers 3 weekly flights when the other companies operate multiple daily flights to the same destinations?


And why not? If the price is right and the schedule works for you, why pay $130-180 per flight versus $30-50, for as long as it’s available.

I’ve flown Wizz on domestic Norwegian routes 6 times in the last month and have nothing bad to say. And to be honest at least they sell BOB products during the flights and that option is there. Both Norwegian and SAS flight attendants are so quick to draw their curtains immediately after takeoff and start yapping with each other nowadays, zero on board product.


I think that's one of the reasons why Wizz Air is becoming increasingly successful. It's like McDonald's, there are no good or bad flights, it's always the same standard of service.
 
Someone83
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:23 am

EFHK wrote:
I do not know the full technical details, but Widerøe is running some kind of life extension program on the Dash 8-100s.

https://www.wideroetechnical.com/extended-service


In addition they have bought a few used, but not so old -100 and -200s the last few years. But still the first -100 is planned to be phased out in not so distant future, but as mentioned, they have enough "extra" aircraft to cover
 
minilinde
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:27 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
And why would you select an airline that offers 3 weekly flights when the other companies operate multiple daily flights to the same destinations?


And why not? If the price is right and the schedule works for you, why pay $130-180 per flight versus $30-50, for as long as it’s available.

I’ve flown Wizz on domestic Norwegian routes 6 times in the last month and have nothing bad to say. And to be honest at least they sell BOB products during the flights and that option is there. Both Norwegian and SAS flight attendants are so quick to draw their curtains immediately after takeoff and start yapping with each other nowadays, zero on board product.


That’s because of the pandemic. Onboard service was set to resume on SK by December 1st, but was stopped by the Norwegian Government. If you are ok with the Wizz practices, then by all means. I will however never fly on Wizz or Ryanair for that reason. I’ll gladly pay more (and have done in the past), and fly SK/LH then the ULCCs of Europe
Types flown: A220, A318, A319, A320, A321, A32N, A333, A343, A359, A380, AT42, AT72, B717, B733, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739, B744, B748, B763, B772, B773, B788, B789, C550, CRJ2, CRJ9, DH4D, F50, ERJ190, MD80s/90, RJ100
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:49 am

https://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/kristians ... yg-3052314

Skaneflyg is a new proposed airline that seems to want to fly between Kristianstad and Stockholm
As far as I know it has neither aircraft nor AOC - ie just a wannabe airline. I'm rather sceptical about flying from Kristianstad given so many other failed or heavily subsidised attempts to fly from there

Anybody else have thoughts ?
 
Blerg
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:56 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/kristianstad_airport/pressreleases/nytt-flygbolag-skaaneflyg-3052314

Skaneflyg is a new proposed airline that seems to want to fly between Kristianstad and Stockholm
As far as I know it has neither aircraft nor AOC - ie just a wannabe airline. I'm rather sceptical about flying from Kristianstad given so many other failed or heavily subsidised attempts to fly from there

Anybody else have thoughts ?


The municipality has 85.000 inhabitants. Do they really need flights to Stockholm? Market seems to be rather small.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:39 am

minilinde wrote:
That’s because of the pandemic. Onboard service was set to resume on SK by December 1st, but was stopped by the Norwegian Government. If you are ok with the Wizz practices, then by all means. I will however never fly on Wizz or Ryanair for that reason. I’ll gladly pay more (and have done in the past), and fly SK/LH then the ULCCs of Europe


Pandemic or not, Wizz gave me a choice of buying a drink and a snack on a 2-hour scheduled flight to Tromsø. Because of work and arriving last minute, I didn’t have time to purchase at the airport before boarding. I appreciated that, to hold me over. Wizz abides by the Norwegian rules, and doesn’t allow alcohol purchases on domestic flights.

Schedule and price dictate my flight choices, in that order (unless there is a huge price discrepancy of course) and therefore I too have wound up on SK and LH multitudes of times. With BOB as the norm service-wise, there is absolutely no difference these days between those carriers and Wizz/Easyjet etc. in economy class. If you are connecting to international-long haul and/or flying premium, naturally of course that changes things.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:58 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
And why would you select an airline that offers 3 weekly flights when the other companies operate multiple daily flights to the same destinations?


And why not? If the price is right and the schedule works for you, why pay $130-180 per flight versus $30-50, for as long as it’s available.


Because you are supporting social dumping, and if you let them get away with it in aviation, sooner or later someone will bring it to your line of work too.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:11 am

VSMUT wrote:
Aeroflot777 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
And why would you select an airline that offers 3 weekly flights when the other companies operate multiple daily flights to the same destinations?


And why not? If the price is right and the schedule works for you, why pay $130-180 per flight versus $30-50, for as long as it’s available.


Because you are supporting social dumping, and if you let them get away with it in aviation, sooner or later someone will bring it to your line of work too.


But is Norwegian or SAS any better? SAS created SAS Ireland to put crew on lower salaries and benefits. And Norwegian were employing Thai nationals and everyone else on different country contracts.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:21 am

VSMUT wrote:
Because you are supporting social dumping, and if you let them get away with it in aviation, sooner or later someone will bring it to your line of work too.


Even local companies try to lower their costs in various ways, Norwegian and SAS included. Far too many regulations and rules in Norway are set up for monopolistic tendencies to benefit the rich few as well as to keep government’s tight grip across multiple industries. This is where Wizz sees the opportunity with lower operating costs. I’m not advocating for all their practices, far from it in fact, but if they see a way to make it work, then competition is only good for Norway, this country needs it.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:12 am

seansasLCY wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Aeroflot777 wrote:

And why not? If the price is right and the schedule works for you, why pay $130-180 per flight versus $30-50, for as long as it’s available.


Because you are supporting social dumping, and if you let them get away with it in aviation, sooner or later someone will bring it to your line of work too.


But is Norwegian or SAS any better? SAS created SAS Ireland to put crew on lower salaries and benefits. And Norwegian were employing Thai nationals and everyone else on different country contracts.


SAS Ireland is also criticizable, but entirely a result of having to compete with said ULCCs. Ryan and Wizz are dragging everyone down into the mud. And nasty as SAS Ireland is (hopefully soon, was), they never stooped to the sub-1000 euro salaries of the other two.


Aeroflot777 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Because you are supporting social dumping, and if you let them get away with it in aviation, sooner or later someone will bring it to your line of work too.


Even local companies try to lower their costs in various ways, Norwegian and SAS included. Far too many regulations and rules in Norway are set up for monopolistic tendencies to benefit the rich few as well as to keep government’s tight grip across multiple industries. This is where Wizz sees the opportunity with lower operating costs. I’m not advocating for all their practices, far from it in fact, but if they see a way to make it work, then competition is only good for Norway, this country needs it.


Yes you are. When you buy a ticket with Wizz Air, you 100% support and advocate for their practices.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:39 am

VSMUT wrote:
Yes you are. When you buy a ticket with Wizz Air, you 100% support and advocate for their practices.


Thanks for your opinion on the matter, but I'm equally critical of Wizz Air and the likes for many other reasons. Just because I choose to give them my money on a handful of my overall flight portfolio, doesn't mean I am an advocate for the entirety of their business dealings. However, having them come in and disrupt the aging and non-functioning SAS/Norwegian duopoly (leaving Widerøe out of the equation since their route map and business is geared to a very different passenger), is in my eyes a welcoming change. And their overall economy product, in my opinion is currently superior even though DY's wifi on board is a nice perk when it actually works.

Also, random fact, every one of my Wizz Air domestic flights had cockpit crew who spoke Norwegian. Cabin crew was always entirely eastern European, I believe Polish specifically. Would be interesting to know their hiring practice for pilots, as I'm more than certain there aren't a lot of Norwegian speaking pilots in Eastern Europe.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:44 am

There's probably quite a few Norwegian-speaking pilots who were laid off by one of the various entities within Norwegian Air earlier this year. Perhaps a pilot who used to live in Oslo, was offered a job by Norwegian Air International (ie the Irish subsidiary), and moved to be based at London Gatwick, in the hope of one day moving to a job based at Oslo for Norwegian Air Shuttle (i.e the airline based in Norway) only to be laid off earlier this year
I imagine that some of them may have been willing to take a significant pay cut compared to what they earned in 2019
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:38 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
There's probably quite a few Norwegian-speaking pilots who were laid off by one of the various entities within Norwegian Air earlier this year.


I have been assuming the same thing. But I'm interested in how that works for Wizz's business model here as they are actively painted in media and elsewhere to be ferrying their entire crews from Eastern Europe. Does that mean that these said Norwegian pilots are now based in EE and have to commute in with cabin crew before operating domestic sectors? IIRC, I read somewhere that Wizz has a 5 days on, 4 days off schedule for their Polish cabin crew on Norwegian ops. Not sure if they leave the country again after being here for 9 days, or they stay here for a longer time at airport hotels while on their Norwegian assignment.
 
Soundlesss
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Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:53 am

VSMUT wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Because you are supporting social dumping, and if you let them get away with it in aviation, sooner or later someone will bring it to your line of work too.


But is Norwegian or SAS any better? SAS created SAS Ireland to put crew on lower salaries and benefits. And Norwegian were employing Thai nationals and everyone else on different country contracts.


SAS Ireland is also criticizable, but entirely a result of having to compete with said ULCCs. Ryan and Wizz are dragging everyone down into the mud. And nasty as SAS Ireland is (hopefully soon, was), they never stooped to the sub-1000 euro salaries of the other two.


Aeroflot777 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Because you are supporting social dumping, and if you let them get away with it in aviation, sooner or later someone will bring it to your line of work too.


Even local companies try to lower their costs in various ways, Norwegian and SAS included. Far too many regulations and rules in Norway are set up for monopolistic tendencies to benefit the rich few as well as to keep government’s tight grip across multiple industries. This is where Wizz sees the opportunity with lower operating costs. I’m not advocating for all their practices, far from it in fact, but if they see a way to make it work, then competition is only good for Norway, this country needs it.


Yes you are. When you buy a ticket with Wizz Air, you 100% support and advocate for their practices.


As far as I know no pilots get below 1000...they are receiving on par or if not more net than pilots in Norwegian. Cabin crew are in the highest paid bracket in their home counties, which can corelate to a doctors position in Norway, and they are not based in Oslo, so they go home after jobs done, and since Norwegians don't want to live in Poland or other eec then you have to hire locals...social dumping? Well tickets prices are low in order to attract new users, its like a discount applied everywhere else in the world. If you want to burn cash, that price is below the profit price but that is a strategy as i said before and will highly likely increase once Norwegian is bust...
 
Soundlesss
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:38 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:56 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
There's probably quite a few Norwegian-speaking pilots who were laid off by one of the various entities within Norwegian Air earlier this year.


I have been assuming the same thing. But I'm interested in how that works for Wizz's business model here as they are actively painted in media and elsewhere to be ferrying their entire crews from Eastern Europe. Does that mean that these said Norwegian pilots are now based in EE and have to commute in with cabin crew before operating domestic sectors? IIRC, I read somewhere that Wizz has a 5 days on, 4 days off schedule for their Polish cabin crew on Norwegian ops. Not sure if they leave the country again after being here for 9 days, or they stay here for a longer time at airport hotels while on their Norwegian assignment.


As I've heard from a friend in wizz there is only a handful of Norwegians in Wizzair, and most of them are not flying in Norway. That means some Polish pilots have been learning the language and practices it while flying in Norway, that can only be a positive sign !
 
marcogr12
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:32 pm

Were it not for the LCCs the monolithic state of incumbents would still prevail and millions of people would still be travelling by car/train/bus..Not everyone can splash a lot of cash on flights esp.people with families and not everyone is rich enough even in a country like Norway..Competition and low prices are welcome, so that SK/DY can keep their prices reasonable and not extortionate (SK especially)..It might not be everyone's cup of tea but the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet,Wizzair,Southwest,Air Asia etc have revolutionized air travel and turned it into an affordable commodity..I hope Wizz does make it in Norway , so more choices for passengers and more low fares..
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
minilinde
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:16 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:31 pm

Aeroflot777 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
There's probably quite a few Norwegian-speaking pilots who were laid off by one of the various entities within Norwegian Air earlier this year.


I have been assuming the same thing. But I'm interested in how that works for Wizz's business model here as they are actively painted in media and elsewhere to be ferrying their entire crews from Eastern Europe. Does that mean that these said Norwegian pilots are now based in EE and have to commute in with cabin crew before operating domestic sectors? IIRC, I read somewhere that Wizz has a 5 days on, 4 days off schedule for their Polish cabin crew on Norwegian ops. Not sure if they leave the country again after being here for 9 days, or they stay here for a longer time at airport hotels while on their Norwegian assignment.


It has ben reported in Norwegian media that Wizz crew are rotated in on a 3 month bases (and doing the required quarantine on arrival in OSL), coming from Poland. They probably work 5/4 scheme in the 3 months they are here, but they are not allowed to leave Norway in the 3 months they are in-country.
Types flown: A220, A318, A319, A320, A321, A32N, A333, A343, A359, A380, AT42, AT72, B717, B733, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739, B744, B748, B763, B772, B773, B788, B789, C550, CRJ2, CRJ9, DH4D, F50, ERJ190, MD80s/90, RJ100
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:45 pm

minilinde wrote:
It has ben reported in Norwegian media that Wizz crew are rotated in on a 3 month bases (and doing the required quarantine on arrival in OSL), coming from Poland. They probably work 5/4 scheme in the 3 months they are here, but they are not allowed to leave Norway in the 3 months they are in-country.


Oh, nice. I figured something like this might be in the works. Can’t see it being worth it to fly in and quarantine only for 1 week of flying.

Soundlesss wrote:
That means some Polish pilots have been learning the language and practices it while flying in Norway, that can only be a positive sign !


I’m writing this as we speak from Wizz as we push back on TRD-OSL. Hard to imagine it being a coincidence the pilots have been speaking Norwegian. Perhaps the ones the do have, they’ve rotated in for the beginning. Not like it’s easy giving a cruise flight brief in Norwegian as a language student.

And of course fares are low because they need to establish themselves as a local carrier. Only natural, and I’m sure they are operating at a loss. If they succeed in the medium to long term, prices will equalize a bit and be more sane. I’m all for healthy competition and hope Wizz sticks around to reform SK/DY a tad bit. New blood is never bad.
 
M564038
Posts: 651
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:39 pm

I’m hearing Wizz, company and crew, is not making friends with the local airport authorities, security, service people, drivers, acting like bullies and primadonnas. Passengers are stranded with lack of bus services and information.
Not a great start.
 
Someone83
Posts: 5384
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:52 pm

Qatar Airways has announced a 3x weekly cargo route from Harstad-Narvik (EVE) using a 777-300ER "passenger freighter" from December 14th. The key cargo here will be seafood in the bellyhold

In Norwegian:
https://kommunikasjon.ntb.no/pressemeld ... d=17897164
 
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SASViking
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:01 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
Were it not for the LCCs the monolithic state of incumbents would still prevail and millions of people would still be travelling by car/train/bus..Not everyone can splash a lot of cash on flights esp.people with families and not everyone is rich enough even in a country like Norway..Competition and low prices are welcome, so that SK/DY can keep their prices reasonable and not extortionate (SK especially)..It might not be everyone's cup of tea but the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet,Wizzair,Southwest,Air Asia etc have revolutionized air travel and turned it into an affordable commodity..I hope Wizz does make it in Norway , so more choices for passengers and more low fares..

Competition is great no doubt, as long as it's fair. However some of these LCC's have created more bad things than good. Some of the LCC's have made the public think that extreme and unrealistic low prices is the norm, and fares more than €25 on flights to London, Amsterdam or Paris etc. are extremely expensive. That's toxic for the aviation business.
On top of that is all the political stuff about working conditions etc.
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
a350lover
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:18 pm

This whole topic around Wizz boycott is very interesting.

This is all about how difficult is to maintain ourselves aligned between our personal values and our behavior as consumers of a globalized world. In an ideal World, we all would love to support local businesses of people that we know of, that comply and compete in the market in a fair way, and that follow local laws and respect them. However, it's not always possible to be consistent and "socially responsible" when acting as customers. If we take the issue out of the aviation market, which is still very regulated compared to other industries, we all would probably have to admit that our closets are full of clothing which have been created thousands of kms away from our places in the hands of people under appalling/if not inhuman working conditions. Some of them may not even respect what we globally recognize as "human rights". I don't want to blame anyone cause in my opinion we ALL (at a different level of course) take part of that system based on globalization and capitalism and we all add more and more fuel to it.

Scandinavia is probably among the EU territories where social wellbeing and working rights are most defended. I can see that and it's worldwide known. Any company entering a market like that, if makes some good market research should know and act accordingly. However, Wizz entering the Norwegian domestic market isn't the first company to compromise the benefits of the local working market. I still remember when Norwegian opened up bases in Spain which mainly were aimed at crewing staff on lower wages (not that low for Spanish standards) which ended up in "countryside accommodations" of Norway spending a week on/week off for operating domestic flights too. They also started off long haul ops via Thai crews which were rostered up to 21-day trips out of BKK for flying Scandinavia- USA flights. Did that make Norwegian a terrible employer? No. It isn't about blaming companies on their practices cause I imagine all big enterprises have good and bad examples of working rights actions taken. Norwegian ended up accepting unions in those countries where they locally employed people and I believe they were a nice employer who followed (most of the times) a good practices policy towards their staff.

Same to me applies to Wizz. They have just rocketed down domestic fares in Norway to make as much noise as possible in a country where they probably knew (if intelligent enough) that the local public were going to talk about their poor working practices. We, as customers, are still free to choose which airline want to fly in. Does it mean the fact that you board a W6 flight TOS-OSL that you agree and support ALL of the company policies? Definitely, NO! No one is in total peace of achieving a 100% balance life for not consuming any service which may include poor working practices at some part of the production chain.

We all (enterprises included of course) need to keep evolving. It's alright to enter a market and create a bit of noise and chaos. But Wizz should be in my opinion the first interested party in all this story in getting some better reputation with regards to working conditions. It's alright companies always need to remain competitive and drive costs down, that's capitalism, people as workers also need to earn more than what we spend (that's our little business in life). The point here to me is we need to create of common awareness about all this and try to respect and EVOLVE together so that we can become (a little bit) better.
Last edited by a350lover on Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:22 pm

M564038 wrote:
I’m hearing Wizz, company and crew, is not making friends with the local airport authorities, security, service people, drivers, acting like bullies and primadonnas. Passengers are stranded with lack of bus services and information.
Not a great start.


Can’t say I’m surprised. Upon landing just now “We’re sorry, the jet bridge here has malfunctioned, please disembark via back stairs instead.” As the last one of us made our way up the stairs into the terminal, we could see the bridge attached and ground personnel opened the door. Coincidence much?... Certainly hope so.

SASViking wrote:
Some of the LCC's have made the public think that extreme and unrealistic low prices is the norm, and fares more than €25 on flights to London, Amsterdam or Paris etc. are extremely expensive. That's toxic for the aviation business.


Absolutely. Those can be attributed to promo fares. I’ve paid 200£ on one ways with Ryanair and Wizz before. Hell, I’d be happy with even 70-100$ on flights with no luggage on routes such as Oslo-Bergen/Stavanger/Trondheim. Especially since flight time is roughly 35 minutes. SAS consistently charges premium, even if their planes end up more than half empty. If Wizz wants to charge less, but actually fill their seats, so be it, supply and demand. Norwegian has some great deals these days as well, but we all know why that is. SAS rarely budges.

A post-Corona aviation landscape will be the tell-all. These days it’s good enough for us geeks to banter back and forth, but it’s not a realistic indicator of the reality.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1516
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:27 pm

Another airline has entered the scheduled pax flights market within the Nordic area, JS Aviation
They are rather small, flying just 3x weekly between Joensuu and Kuopio, with what appears to be a Piper PA-31. I'm assuming it's to connect with the Finnair feeder from Kuopio to Helsinki and thus may end up with an AY codeshare. Once the pandemic is largely over and travel is possible, I might feel a great desire to visit the lakes of eastern Finland
https://www.jsaviation.eu/
 
marcogr12
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:26 pm

SASViking wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
Were it not for the LCCs the monolithic state of incumbents would still prevail and millions of people would still be travelling by car/train/bus..Not everyone can splash a lot of cash on flights esp.people with families and not everyone is rich enough even in a country like Norway..Competition and low prices are welcome, so that SK/DY can keep their prices reasonable and not extortionate (SK especially)..It might not be everyone's cup of tea but the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet,Wizzair,Southwest,Air Asia etc have revolutionized air travel and turned it into an affordable commodity..I hope Wizz does make it in Norway , so more choices for passengers and more low fares..

Competition is great no doubt, as long as it's fair. However some of these LCC's have created more bad things than good. Some of the LCC's have made the public think that extreme and unrealistic low prices is the norm, and fares more than €25 on flights to London, Amsterdam or Paris etc. are extremely expensive. That's toxic for the aviation business.
On top of that is all the political stuff about working conditions etc.


Well promo fares are one thing...And even legacies have adopted this policy of..flash sales with slashed prices..But if an airline, even LCC, wants to stay profitable it can't always fly on 25euro-prices...And they don't..There are times that demand is so high that LCCs are more expensive than legacies..The public, with average IQ,i think they understand that but they like to complain and nag, esp. on the internet..I've met people who say a 80e round fare is expensive..I say take the bus if you don't want to or go on foot..Still, if you see CPH and how FR has fought them, in the end , they sort of gave up but a lot of flights there are by easy, ryanair and wizz..It would be nice to have sth. similar in Norway..FR has fought French labour laws like crazy, going on a merry-go-round of opening up, blackmailing and closing bases..The end result..: they just couldn't ignore such a big market and reopened bases and have plans for more..
I don;t know if Wizzair is up for a good fight but if even they want to stay in Norway, they will have to adapt eventually..Nevertheless, that doesn't negate that fact that they can stimulate more traffic domestic and international, bring more pax to the country, and give a chance to people whose income isn't that high to fly
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:02 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
I’ve flown Wizz on domestic Norwegian routes 6 times in the last month and have nothing bad to say.

Wizz Air is not on my wish to fly list. But 6 flights in one month makes me jealous. My last flight trip was in September. And the one before was in February. Corona travel bans and quarantine obligations have destroyed almost all my travel plans for this year. I wish my country, The Netherlands, still had domestic flights.

Aeroflot777 wrote:
Just because I choose to give them my money on a handful of my overall flight portfolio, doesn't mean I am an advocate for the entirety of their business dealings.

Six flights in one month means a handful of your overall flight portfolio? I am getting more jealous now. Let's hope things get better in 2021 and we all can start travelling again. My current backlog stands at 26 cancelled flights.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 1114
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:22 am

Blerg wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/kristianstad_airport/pressreleases/nytt-flygbolag-skaaneflyg-3052314

Skaneflyg is a new proposed airline that seems to want to fly between Kristianstad and Stockholm
As far as I know it has neither aircraft nor AOC - ie just a wannabe airline. I'm rather sceptical about flying from Kristianstad given so many other failed or heavily subsidised attempts to fly from there

Anybody else have thoughts ?


The municipality has 85.000 inhabitants. Do they really need flights to Stockholm? Market seems to be rather small.


Calling Skåneflyg an airline is a very generous use of the word airline. It will more or less be a travel agent that will charter an aircraft (rumours say a Saab 340) to fly from Kristianstad to Stockholm, my guess is BMA.

Do Kristianstad need flights? Good question, but I certainly would not invest any money in the company.
 
Someone83
Posts: 5384
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Nordic Aviation - 2020

Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:26 am

SE-RJR went to the scrapper in DGX yesterday, so 18 737-700s left in the SAS fleet

Boeing 737 -76N 33420 1459 SE-RJR SAS ferried 08dec20 OSL-DGX, for part-out & scrap

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