Airliners.net

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Prior to the virus, did Swedavia have plans with what to do with T3 and the newer pier at T5 ?
While T2, T4 and the older area of T5 always seemed very heavily used, both T3 and the newer pier at T5 always seemed very quiet for much of the day

I'm guessing that using sone gates costs an airline more than other gates... hence the reason why T4 and the older part of T5 felt so cramped with hordes of people

Is it worthwhile keeping all this gate space open, or was there a plan to try to cut some costs, especially with Greta making herself heard ?

Blerg wrote:

Have SK and DY received aid already from their governments? I remember Norway saying it will provide a loan for Norwegian.

Oykie wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Have SK and DY received aid already from their governments? I remember Norway saying it will provide a loan for Norwegian.

Norwegian has received the first part of the aid. The second and third part of the aid is really difficult for Norwegian to get and they need to negotiate with creditors to qualify. This is the short version

Blerg wrote:

Oykie wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Have SK and DY received aid already from their governments? I remember Norway saying it will provide a loan for Norwegian.

Norwegian has received the first part of the aid. The second and third part of the aid is really difficult for Norwegian to get and they need to negotiate with creditors to qualify. This is the short version

I don't get it, wasn't the aid a loan from the government? Why do they need to negotiate with creditors?

nordify wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Oykie wrote:

Norwegian has received the first part of the aid. The second and third part of the aid is really difficult for Norwegian to get and they need to negotiate with creditors to qualify. This is the short version

I don't get it, wasn't the aid a loan from the government? Why do they need to negotiate with creditors?

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the government provided a percentage of a loan with the condition that investors/creditors would provide the rest of the loan.
If Norwegian is unable to secure financing from investors etc., they government loan will not be granted.

Blerg wrote:

Wow that doesn't sound like great help especially since the government knows in what shape and state Norwegian is right now. Will be interesting to see what becomes of them and if they manage to secure funding. I wonder if they have any free assets left.

Someone83 wrote:

Norwegian just declared their Swedish and Danish cabin crew and pilot companies bankrupt. And the contract with OSM regarding crew has been cancelled

Note that Norwegian Air Sweden and its Swedish AOC is not part of this

Blerg wrote:

Someone83 wrote:

Norwegian just declared their Swedish and Danish cabin crew and pilot companies bankrupt. And the contract with OSM regarding crew has been cancelled

Note that Norwegian Air Sweden and its Swedish AOC is not part of this

So what does this mean? Will they just use other crew for these two markets?

MareBorealis wrote:

It looks SAS are not returning to HKG after the curret crisis.

Source in Danish: https://finalcall.travel/da/sas-dropper ... ong-ruten/

davidjohnson6 wrote:

In 2018, Nextjet collapsed
Earlier this month, BRA laid off almost all its staff and asked for permission to restructure
Norwegian looks to be laying off all staff at its Swedish crewing company - looks like they will be flying just routes where either one or both airports are in Norway

For a country spread over a large geographical area, this presents a bit of a problem for Sweden. Trains are great on the Malmo-Gothenburg-Stockholm corridor, but not so great elsewhere. Apart from SAS, it seems the only airline on non-PSO routes is the tiny Air Leap

Any thoughts as to what the Swedish could or should do about this ?

kanye wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

In 2018, Nextjet collapsed
Earlier this month, BRA laid off almost all its staff and asked for permission to restructure
Norwegian looks to be laying off all staff at its Swedish crewing company - looks like they will be flying just routes where either one or both airports are in Norway

For a country spread over a large geographical area, this presents a bit of a problem for Sweden. Trains are great on the Malmo-Gothenburg-Stockholm corridor, but not so great elsewhere. Apart from SAS, it seems the only airline on non-PSO routes is the tiny Air Leap

Any thoughts as to what the Swedish could or should do about this ?

As long as SAS is flying i don't see any problem. Domestic flying is predicted to recover first and SAS has a lot of capacity to incrase this and take a market share from Norwegian and BRA.
Only problem for customers could be more expensive tickets. On the other hand that would be healthy considering BRA survived a couple of weeks and Norwegian has mostly expanded by building up huge debts.
Not healthy for any industry.

kanye wrote:

On the other hand that would be healthy considering BRA survived a couple of weeks and Norwegian has mostly expanded by building up huge debts.
Not healthy for any industry.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

In 2018, Nextjet collapsed
Earlier this month, BRA laid off almost all its staff and asked for permission to restructure
Norwegian looks to be laying off all staff at its Swedish crewing company - looks like they will be flying just routes where either one or both airports are in Norway

For a country spread over a large geographical area, this presents a bit of a problem for Sweden. Trains are great on the Malmo-Gothenburg-Stockholm corridor, but not so great elsewhere. Apart from SAS, it seems the only airline on non-PSO routes is the tiny Air Leap

Any thoughts as to what the Swedish could or should do about this ?

Blerg wrote:

kanye wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

In 2018, Nextjet collapsed
Earlier this month, BRA laid off almost all its staff and asked for permission to restructure
Norwegian looks to be laying off all staff at its Swedish crewing company - looks like they will be flying just routes where either one or both airports are in Norway

For a country spread over a large geographical area, this presents a bit of a problem for Sweden. Trains are great on the Malmo-Gothenburg-Stockholm corridor, but not so great elsewhere. Apart from SAS, it seems the only airline on non-PSO routes is the tiny Air Leap

Any thoughts as to what the Swedish could or should do about this ?

As long as SAS is flying i don't see any problem. Domestic flying is predicted to recover first and SAS has a lot of capacity to incrase this and take a market share from Norwegian and BRA.
Only problem for customers could be more expensive tickets. On the other hand that would be healthy considering BRA survived a couple of weeks and Norwegian has mostly expanded by building up huge debts.
Not healthy for any industry.

But isn't recovery a relative term when it comes to doemstic travel in Sweden? I mean this particular market started suffering long before corona.

EFHK wrote:

kanye wrote:

On the other hand that would be healthy considering BRA survived a couple of weeks and Norwegian has mostly expanded by building up huge debts.
Not healthy for any industry.

If both BRA and Norwegian go definitively under, I can still see a couple of strong opportunities opening up: namely, domestic flying in Norway & Bromma. I suspect that SAS could not immediately fulfill all the demand for Norway, and that there would still be quite some people preferring Bromma over Arlanda (provided that it stays open).

Now we get to the daydream part.

It would be so cool to see AY, DAT, and Widerøe (+potentially a restructured BRA) combining their forces and creating an actual Nordic regional airline to provide the main competition for SAS. By all logic, there should be quite some workforce available after the crisis, plus also low-priced regional aircraft (e.g. E-190s, BRA's AT7s) that could be used to expand to key domestic routes in Norway, as well as BMA. BMA could even see some new destinations in Northern Sweden, and in neighboring countries.

I believe it could be viable.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

I don't think it is in the interests of the residents of Sweden if one airline has a near monopoly on domestic long distance transport... there needs to be a competitor on a significant number of routes which can keep SAS honest

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Wideroe and SAS have a strong commercial relationship - one does the short distance flying between small towns and the major airports, the other carries people between major airports and to cities outside Norway. Break this relationship, and you break much of the connectivity that exists in the Norwegian transport infrastructure. I do not believe Wideroe is going to start flying B737 or A320 aircraft between Oslo and Trondheim or Tromso in competition with SAS any time soon

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Travelling by train takes sonewhat longer than by air. Yes, a competitor, but perhaps not always as effective a competitor !

ARNPEK wrote:

If one looks at domestic aviation history there has always been competition in Sweden. IF both BRA and Norwegian seize operations there is likely to be another coming in. There is hardware and skilled staff available. The only thing that would be needed is investors...

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Wideroe and SAS have a strong commercial relationship - one does the short distance flying between small towns and the major airports, the other carries people between major airports and to cities outside Norway. Break this relationship, and you break much of the connectivity that exists in the Norwegian transport infrastructure. I do not believe Wideroe is going to start flying B737 or A320 aircraft between Oslo and Trondheim or Tromso in competition with SAS any time soon

QuawerAir wrote:

Once the COVID-19 crisis is "over" which routes (European and intercontinental) do you think won't exist anymore out of Nordics? And which routes will see notable reductions in weekly frequencies? It may be a little too early to say at this point but I'd like to hear your thoughts and speculations.

In general flights will surely be reduced to worst pandemic regions (especially leisure destinations) such as Italy and Spain. I'm not too sure about China though as Chinese carriers (particularly those owned by the Chinese government) may be unwilling to cut flights. If Norwegian collapsed, would it leave several currently operated routes unserved.

Blerg wrote:

So is it safe to assume Norwegian will not be flying from Denmark and Sweden in the future if they make it? I am referring to the fact they liquidated their employment companies there.

HotelWhiskey wrote:

Cityjet Oy, the finnish subsidiary of Cityjet that is flying on behalf of SAS, has entered bankruptcy.
Around 100 pilots might loose their jobs. In November 2019 Cityjet Oy already reduced their staff by 80%.

The danish subsidiary CityJet A/S however, continues operations for now
Source in finnish

Someone83 wrote:

Blerg wrote:

So is it safe to assume Norwegian will not be flying from Denmark and Sweden in the future if they make it? I am referring to the fact they liquidated their employment companies there.

I do think it hard to tell, if they survive off course. The liquidation of these companies has more to do to save cash in the short term

VSMUT wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

In 2018, Nextjet collapsed
Earlier this month, BRA laid off almost all its staff and asked for permission to restructure
Norwegian looks to be laying off all staff at its Swedish crewing company - looks like they will be flying just routes where either one or both airports are in Norway

For a country spread over a large geographical area, this presents a bit of a problem for Sweden. Trains are great on the Malmo-Gothenburg-Stockholm corridor, but not so great elsewhere. Apart from SAS, it seems the only airline on non-PSO routes is the tiny Air Leap

Any thoughts as to what the Swedish could or should do about this ?

Establish PSO routes and admit that domestic travel to some destinations in inherently going to be a rip-off until railways get built up.

It isn't completely unlike New Zealand. Big, sparsely populated country with only one airline charging horrendous prices. Works down there.

Blerg wrote:

HotelWhiskey wrote:

Cityjet Oy, the finnish subsidiary of Cityjet that is flying on behalf of SAS, has entered bankruptcy.
Around 100 pilots might loose their jobs. In November 2019 Cityjet Oy already reduced their staff by 80%.

The danish subsidiary CityJet A/S however, continues operations for now
Source in finnish

I read online that it's both the Swedish and Finnish subsidiary that went into bankruptcy, they seem to be operating a total of 23 CRJ-900 aircraft. I wonder if SK might take them or will they just let them go as they don't need the capacity right now.

Blerg wrote:

HotelWhiskey wrote:

Cityjet Oy, the finnish subsidiary of Cityjet that is flying on behalf of SAS, has entered bankruptcy.
Around 100 pilots might loose their jobs. In November 2019 Cityjet Oy already reduced their staff by 80%.

The danish subsidiary CityJet A/S however, continues operations for now
Source in finnish

I read online that it's both the Swedish and Finnish subsidiary that went into bankruptcy, they seem to be operating a total of 23 CRJ-900 aircraft. I wonder if SK might take them or will they just let them go as they don't need the capacity right now.

HotelWhiskey wrote:

Blerg wrote:

HotelWhiskey wrote:

Cityjet Oy, the finnish subsidiary of Cityjet that is flying on behalf of SAS, has entered bankruptcy.
Around 100 pilots might loose their jobs. In November 2019 Cityjet Oy already reduced their staff by 80%.

The danish subsidiary CityJet A/S however, continues operations for now
Source in finnish

I read online that it's both the Swedish and Finnish subsidiary that went into bankruptcy, they seem to be operating a total of 23 CRJ-900 aircraft. I wonder if SK might take them or will they just let them go as they don't need the capacity right now.

The lentoposti article mentions that SAS is not happy with the bankruptcy of Cityjet Oy and expects the co-operation to continue.
Cityjet Oy reduced their staff by 80% already back in November 2019. I personally know some staff that had the oppurtunity to move to the CPH base back then.
But that doesn't mean that the situation is the same now

Blerg wrote:

HotelWhiskey wrote:

Blerg wrote:

I read online that it's both the Swedish and Finnish subsidiary that went into bankruptcy, they seem to be operating a total of 23 CRJ-900 aircraft. I wonder if SK might take them or will they just let them go as they don't need the capacity right now.

The lentoposti article mentions that SAS is not happy with the bankruptcy of Cityjet Oy and expects the co-operation to continue.
Cityjet Oy reduced their staff by 80% already back in November 2019. I personally know some staff that had the oppurtunity to move to the CPH base back then.
But that doesn't mean that the situation is the same now

But how do we interpret them not being happy about the Cityjet situation? Does it mean they might take them over or provide funding for them to remain operational.... them being unhappy doesn't really give us a lot of information.

By the way, what routes did they operate for them from Finland? Was it just to Denmark and Sweden or were there other ones as well?

Kikko19 wrote:

Blerg wrote:

HotelWhiskey wrote:

Cityjet Oy, the finnish subsidiary of Cityjet that is flying on behalf of SAS, has entered bankruptcy.
Around 100 pilots might loose their jobs. In November 2019 Cityjet Oy already reduced their staff by 80%.

The danish subsidiary CityJet A/S however, continues operations for now
Source in finnish

I read online that it's both the Swedish and Finnish subsidiary that went into bankruptcy, they seem to be operating a total of 23 CRJ-900 aircraft. I wonder if SK might take them or will they just let them go as they don't need the capacity right now.

SAS is now (well was..) relying on Regional Jet (from Estonia) which provided CRJ's and a couple of ATR.

VSMUT wrote:

It isn't completely unlike New Zealand. Big, sparsely populated country with only one airline charging horrendous prices. Works down there.

Blerg wrote:

So how many of those 23 aircraft were based in Finaland and how many in Sweden? What about Denmark? Who operated those there? SK?

Nordica will probably give a really good deal given that their agreement with LO is not going through.

Kikko19 wrote:

Blerg wrote:

So how many of those 23 aircraft were based in Finaland and how many in Sweden? What about Denmark? Who operated those there? SK?

Nordica will probably give a really good deal given that their agreement with LO is not going through.

yes, Estonian govt pushes to exit agreement with LOT and enter again (SAS created Estonian Air and then sold it before failure) an agreement with SK
https://news.err.ee/1080616/estonian-ai ... -state-aid