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MartijnNL
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:56 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Alaska is not a state-owned airline. They don't have to give a second thought to any of your issues with them.

It doesn't matter who owns the airline. The management of Alaska Airlines should give a second thought to what they want to communicate to the flying public in general and their customers in particular. I have no problem with "Proudly All Boeing", but when you also operate aircraft of other manufacturers the slogan makes absolutely no sense. Basically Alaska is making a claim they cannot hold up to.

TTailedTiger wrote:
If "Proudly All Boeing" offends the people of any of the international locations they fly to then they can deny them access to their airspace.

Each time I see an Alaska Airlines jet with the statement "Proudly All Boeing" on the hull, I just think to myself "that's stupid." Why anyone would suggest to deny them access to certain airspaces because of their factual incorrect slogan is beyond me.
 
MontaukMonster
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:19 pm

The capitalist in me thinks this is a marketing deal with Boeing. Perhaps Alaska Airlines is contractually required to keep the slogan until said contract expires?
 
marcelh
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:35 pm

MontaukMonster wrote:
The capitalist in me thinks this is a marketing deal with Boeing. Perhaps Alaska Airlines is contractually required to keep the slogan until said contract expires?


That must be a sweet deal then, because “proud” and “Boeing” doesn’t quite fit in the same sentence nowadays.
 
bourbon
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:54 pm

fanoftristars wrote:
I thought the “Proudly All Boeing” had more to do with a nod to their hometown of Seattle and less to do with “buy American” type mentality.

Not a Boeing fanboy here

But I will say your comment does not fit certain people’s narrative.
 
mga707
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:56 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Also, they use this slogan because being a mostly domestic carrier, they 'can get away with it', but also do cater to large numbers of a certain type of American, for whom the phrase might be catchy, and might make them jolt with silly patriotism upon boarding...
Bear in mind that for most people outside the US, Alaska Airlines is only an insignificant and obscure domestic carrier that most people won't ever get to see in their whole life.
You wouldn't possibly imagine ANY international carrier of ANY other nation paint something so utterly silly, rhetorical and nationalistic as that!
It would be not only socially un-acceptable, but would be considered politically incorrect. Again, in aviation I'd dare say that nothing -NO SINGLE PRODUCT- is 100% made in ONE country. At lest the raw materials are sourced elsewhere, and easily most of the manufacturing is made in foreign countries.

Can you imagine if BA, or Virgin, would write something along the lines of "proudly using Rolls-Royce engines"?? I mean, c'mon. Britain used to have slogans like these in the 1950s, like the one coined for cars "buy British, and be proud of it". Now it would not even pass the test of a local primary school board!
...Or Air France saying "proudly flying Toulouse-assembled Airbus jets" ???
Folks, you wouldn't even see a Russian airline in Putin's Russia writing "proudly flying Tupolev jets"!!!!

Really, Alaska's marketing phrase is out of time, out of touch with global realities, and reeks of old-school right-wing, rhetorical, paternalistic, nationalistic sentiments.
It's really time to move on for a part of America guys.... it's sad that people can't even wake up to it, and see how much wrong there is with this stupid phrase.


Can't believe how worked up you are over this. The slogan is there because Alaska airlines is based in, and has their main hub in, an airport (SEA) that is in an area where 'papa Boeing' puts the food on the table for a huge number of households. That is all. Get off your political high horse.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:59 pm

At the time those decals were affixed, AS was an all-Boeing fleet. The question is...as the airframes are painted in the new livery is it being retained? Will take a look my next trip.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:07 pm

mga707 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Also, they use this slogan because being a mostly domestic carrier, they 'can get away with it', but also do cater to large numbers of a certain type of American, for whom the phrase might be catchy, and might make them jolt with silly patriotism upon boarding...
Bear in mind that for most people outside the US, Alaska Airlines is only an insignificant and obscure domestic carrier that most people won't ever get to see in their whole life.
You wouldn't possibly imagine ANY international carrier of ANY other nation paint something so utterly silly, rhetorical and nationalistic as that!
It would be not only socially un-acceptable, but would be considered politically incorrect. Again, in aviation I'd dare say that nothing -NO SINGLE PRODUCT- is 100% made in ONE country. At lest the raw materials are sourced elsewhere, and easily most of the manufacturing is made in foreign countries.

Can you imagine if BA, or Virgin, would write something along the lines of "proudly using Rolls-Royce engines"?? I mean, c'mon. Britain used to have slogans like these in the 1950s, like the one coined for cars "buy British, and be proud of it". Now it would not even pass the test of a local primary school board!
...Or Air France saying "proudly flying Toulouse-assembled Airbus jets" ???
Folks, you wouldn't even see a Russian airline in Putin's Russia writing "proudly flying Tupolev jets"!!!!

Really, Alaska's marketing phrase is out of time, out of touch with global realities, and reeks of old-school right-wing, rhetorical, paternalistic, nationalistic sentiments.
It's really time to move on for a part of America guys.... it's sad that people can't even wake up to it, and see how much wrong there is with this stupid phrase.


Can't believe how worked up you are over this. The slogan is there because Alaska airlines is based in, and has their main hub in, an airport (SEA) that is in an area where 'papa Boeing' puts the food on the table for a huge number of households. That is all. Get off your political high horse.


Sorry, but no. I actually believe in what I stated, and I stand to what I've said. Never mind if you think I'm worked up over this - it's fine. Indeed I am on my high political horse, and that is because Alaska's slogan 'about papa Boeing' is indeed entirely political, and embedded in the "all American" political and corporational rhetoric that so many of you are engulfed in to the point of not being able to think straight, and outside of your US centric bubble.
 
Lootess
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:14 pm

When AS ordered 10 more 900ER, they briefly talked about what Proudly All Boeing meant to Alaska and Boeing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYr3-AxO4jk
 
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767333ER
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:18 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
mga707 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Also, they use this slogan because being a mostly domestic carrier, they 'can get away with it', but also do cater to large numbers of a certain type of American, for whom the phrase might be catchy, and might make them jolt with silly patriotism upon boarding...
Bear in mind that for most people outside the US, Alaska Airlines is only an insignificant and obscure domestic carrier that most people won't ever get to see in their whole life.
You wouldn't possibly imagine ANY international carrier of ANY other nation paint something so utterly silly, rhetorical and nationalistic as that!
It would be not only socially un-acceptable, but would be considered politically incorrect. Again, in aviation I'd dare say that nothing -NO SINGLE PRODUCT- is 100% made in ONE country. At lest the raw materials are sourced elsewhere, and easily most of the manufacturing is made in foreign countries.

Can you imagine if BA, or Virgin, would write something along the lines of "proudly using Rolls-Royce engines"?? I mean, c'mon. Britain used to have slogans like these in the 1950s, like the one coined for cars "buy British, and be proud of it". Now it would not even pass the test of a local primary school board!
...Or Air France saying "proudly flying Toulouse-assembled Airbus jets" ???
Folks, you wouldn't even see a Russian airline in Putin's Russia writing "proudly flying Tupolev jets"!!!!

Really, Alaska's marketing phrase is out of time, out of touch with global realities, and reeks of old-school right-wing, rhetorical, paternalistic, nationalistic sentiments.
It's really time to move on for a part of America guys.... it's sad that people can't even wake up to it, and see how much wrong there is with this stupid phrase.


Can't believe how worked up you are over this. The slogan is there because Alaska airlines is based in, and has their main hub in, an airport (SEA) that is in an area where 'papa Boeing' puts the food on the table for a huge number of households. That is all. Get off your political high horse.


Sorry, but no. I actually believe in what I stated, and I stand to what I've said. Never mind if you think I'm worked up over this - it's fine. Indeed I am on my high political horse, and that is because Alaska's slogan 'about papa Boeing' is indeed entirely political, and embedded in the "all American" political and corporational rhetoric that so many of you are engulfed in to the point of not being able to think straight, and outside of your US centric bubble.

:checkmark:
Didn’t one of the guys running Alaska say that they basically want to go Boeing only again because his dad worked there or something?
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
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767333ER
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit widows.

Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:26 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
767333ER wrote:
And they say fanboy decisions aren’t made at airlines


If it were really an issue I'm sure the shareholders would have brought it with the BOD. It would be equally silly if Spirit ever put "Proudly All Airbus" and someone complained. What Alaska should put is "Proudly All 737". They don't even want a second Boeing type in the fleet.

It’s not an issue Ain the boardroom if they l agree with it, but that doesn’t mean it’s an issue or annoyance in the real world. It’s just weird that they stil stick this on brand new planes. Why didn’t they put it on the A320 for that matter?
tiptoe42 wrote:
Maybe they will change it to read
“Proudly mostly Horizon and Skywest”

More like proudly trying to have Horizon killed off in favour of Skywest... oh the things I’ve heard about that! :eyepopping:
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
Lootess
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit widows.

Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:31 pm

767333ER wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
767333ER wrote:
And they say fanboy decisions aren’t made at airlines


If it were really an issue I'm sure the shareholders would have brought it with the BOD. It would be equally silly if Spirit ever put "Proudly All Airbus" and someone complained. What Alaska should put is "Proudly All 737". They don't even want a second Boeing type in the fleet.

It’s not an issue Ain the boardroom if they l agree with it, but that doesn’t mean it’s an issue or annoyance in the real world. It’s just weird that they stil stick this on brand new planes. Why didn’t they put it on the A320 for that matter?
tiptoe42 wrote:
Maybe they will change it to read
“Proudly mostly Horizon and Skywest”

More like proudly trying to have Horizon killed off in favour of Skywest... oh the things I’ve heard about that! :eyepopping:


I don't think Boeing would appreciate their logo on Airbus aircraft, so that's one reason. The fact it has the Boeing logo is probably one sticking point. I just think they haven't thought this through, and it's more likely they get another A320neo before a single MAX arrives on property.
 
cschleic
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:56 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
People say the reason is cost to paint over the existing decals. NO. They are actively painting it on new MAX 737’s.

That is what I find outrageous and flat out lying. They could change it to proud Boeing partner or Proud Boeing operator for X years, but instead they insist on lying with this same nonsense phrase!


Everybody has made their point. They're a terrible company, etc. etc. As comes up so often in these types of threads, time to move on. If you really don't like it, don't fly on them. And there are bigger issues in the industry.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:33 pm

aeromoe wrote:
Why is Alaska Airlines still wearing this slogan on the 737s since the Airbuses have been in the fleet for some time now?


Funny, it doesn't say that on any of the Airbus, E175, or Q400 equipment.

I wonder why? :duck:
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Delta28L
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:34 pm

I still laugh when I see that when Alaska pulls into the gate at my station.
 
SocalApproach
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:42 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
Why is Alaska Airlines still wearing this slogan on the 737s since the Airbuses have been in the fleet for some time now?


Funny, it doesn't say that on any of the Airbus, E175, or Q400 equipment.

I wonder why? :duck:



The E175 and Q is not an AS Aircraft. I know you’re the biggest AS Fanboy on A.net but cmon. Even you need to be objective on this subject...for once. Having said that I think this answers the fleet decision. Remember when AS said they were evaluating keeping VX as a separate airline like QX within the Alaska Air Group? Yeah they were never evaluating anything. The company is just full of fluff. They aren’t evaluating the fleet decision either. It’s already been made and I have my own reservations why AS refuses to just come out with it already and it has nothing to do with playing hardball with Boeing to get a better deal on 737s vs giving their business to Airbus
Last edited by SocalApproach on Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Lootess
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:48 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
Why is Alaska Airlines still wearing this slogan on the 737s since the Airbuses have been in the fleet for some time now?


Funny, it doesn't say that on any of the Airbus, E175, or Q400 equipment.

I wonder why? :duck:



The E175 and Q is not an AS Aircraft. I know you’re the biggest AS Fanboy on A.net but cmon. Even you need to be objective on this subject...for once


Alaska is just an endless Horizon of aircraft ya know.
 
chrisp390
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:01 pm

cschleic wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
People say the reason is cost to paint over the existing decals. NO. They are actively painting it on new MAX 737’s.

That is what I find outrageous and flat out lying. They could change it to proud Boeing partner or Proud Boeing operator for X years, but instead they insist on lying with this same nonsense phrase!


Everybody has made their point. They're a terrible company, etc. etc. As comes up so often in these types of threads, time to move on. If you really don't like it, don't fly on them. And there are bigger issues in the industry.


It’s not a matter of not flying them because I don’t like them. It is actively lying... and maybe there are people who see that slogan and it makes them go out of their way to use Alaska next time over Delta for example. In that case it is deceptive and misleading marketing.

Alaska seems to have a penchant for creating these nonsense marketing slogans that cause outrage and have little meaning. “Most West Coast” also comes to mind, that had this forum blow up in outrage, but anyways I digress.
 
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zeke
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit widows.

Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:02 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
It's not a matter of removing the slogan. They are still actively having it painted on new build MAXs years after acquiring Airbus birds. It's bizarre and completely untruthful.


Maybe that means the 12 year leases on the A320s will be over when the aircraft join the fleet ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:38 pm

Maybe to troll a.netters

Maybe because no one besides us noticed or cared
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:52 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
fanoftristars wrote:
I thought the “Proudly All Boeing” had more to do with a nod to their hometown of Seattle and less to do with “buy American” type mentality.


For the non-Americans amongst us, how long has Seattle been in Alaska? :lol: Maybe they should rebrand themselves as Washington Airlines or something.

Alaska is based in Seattle and that includes it's maintenance facility. Boeing is now headquartered in Chicago, IL and NOT in Seattle, WA. Maybe Boeing should be renamed after the city they are headquartered in. Sarcasm intended. Boeing opened facility in Charleston, SC to also build 787s of which one of the reasons was it is a non union facility. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
cschleic
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:01 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
cschleic wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
People say the reason is cost to paint over the existing decals. NO. They are actively painting it on new MAX 737’s.

That is what I find outrageous and flat out lying. They could change it to proud Boeing partner or Proud Boeing operator for X years, but instead they insist on lying with this same nonsense phrase!


Everybody has made their point. They're a terrible company, etc. etc. As comes up so often in these types of threads, time to move on. If you really don't like it, don't fly on them. And there are bigger issues in the industry.


It’s not a matter of not flying them because I don’t like them. It is actively lying... and maybe there are people who see that slogan and it makes them go out of their way to use Alaska next time over Delta for example. In that case it is deceptive and misleading marketing.

Alaska seems to have a penchant for creating these nonsense marketing slogans that cause outrage and have little meaning. “Most West Coast” also comes to mind, that had this forum blow up in outrage, but anyways I digress.


Well I didn't know that their "nonsense marketing slogans" cause outrage among....what, a few a.netters out there? And bringing up other slogans points to a larger issue in your posts....about AS in general, not just some silly slogan on the plane that was there before a large acquisition. I hope there's the same type of outrage about other airline slogans that are deceptive, you know like more legroom, better seats, etc. As for forum outrage, seems to me it's pointing out that 1) There are plenty of other similar airline examples, and 2) It's making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
Order
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:21 pm

Boeing employs 69K folks in Washington state. Add in retirees, family members, those employed by suppliers and that is a huge number of individuals who have benefited economically from Boeing. Considering that, it makes total sense that an airline based on Washington state would promote its relationship with Boeing. It demonstrates a commitment to a city and state and is a localized version of the "Hometown Airline" branding that many airlines trot out.

Nationalism and patriotism have undoubtedly been responsible for incredible destruction and suffering in the world and the US is certainly responsible for much of it. However, it requires some acrobatic leaps to lump an AS decal with the ills of nationalism.

It is, undoubtedly, factually incorrect given their fleet. If other airlines found this to be problematic, I doubt that they would hesitate to file a complaint with FTC.
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:55 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
Why is Alaska Airlines still wearing this slogan on the 737s since the Airbuses have been in the fleet for some time now?


Funny, it doesn't say that on any of the Airbus, E175, or Q400 equipment.

I wonder why? :duck:


How cool of a flex would it be if they did though?
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:22 pm

Order wrote:
It is, undoubtedly, factually incorrect given their fleet. If other airlines found this to be problematic, I doubt that they would hesitate to file a complaint with FTC.


I take absolutely no issue with Alaska's long-term and loyal relationship with Boeing. Problem is that 'all Boeing' is absolutely not true and not factual, that's why this thread exists and that's why some people are taking issue, it's blatantly incorrect. I feel Alaska should continue to promote their relationship if it's something they're proud of and have every right to do but they do to change the slogan, perhaps something like 'proud to be partnered with Boeing' or 'proudly supporting Boeing'.
 
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aeromoe
Topic Author
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:46 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
At the time those decals were affixed, AS was an all-Boeing fleet. The question is...as the airframes are painted in the new livery is it being retained? Will take a look my next trip.


Yes - it is still on the new paint airframes I've seen.http://www.aeromoe.com/flightlog/flt738.html
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit widows.

Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:06 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Because it’s misleading and false advertisement. If 320’s are wearing AS colors they aren’t “all Boeing”. If the Horizon EJets and CRJ’s are flying full AS branding they aren’t “all Boeing”.

If a fast food chain Like McDonalds claims they only carry Coca Cola products but have Pepsi on fountain as well, they aren’t solely a Coca Cola Products vendor.


Is this a serious post? People should waste their angst elsewhere. It’s marketing and it directly impacts exactly zero passengers. Nothing like offering Coke and selling Pepsi. The product is a flight not a plane.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:26 pm

chiad wrote:
As of now the 30 A320neos on order is more likely to be delivered than their 32 MAX planes.
This will be interesting if the grounding drags on for another year or more.


Speculation.
 
ItnStln
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:00 am

oldannyboy wrote:
I find it a 'spit in the face' to the rest of the world.
Also, not sure there's much to be proud of flying Boeings these days, but that's another story...
Time for the US to re-think their mentality, and start thinking outside of the proverbial [corporate] box.[/b]

That is nothing but your opinion.
 
mga707
Posts: 303
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:39 am

cschleic wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
People say the reason is cost to paint over the existing decals. NO. They are actively painting it on new MAX 737’s.

That is what I find outrageous and flat out lying. They could change it to proud Boeing partner or Proud Boeing operator for X years, but instead they insist on lying with this same nonsense phrase!


Everybody has made their point. They're a terrible company, etc. etc. As comes up so often in these types of threads, time to move on. If you really don't like it, don't fly on them. And there are bigger issues in the industry.


Exactly. This is as big of a whipped-up nothing as the supposed 'outrage' over the prayer cards that used to be on their meal trays.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit widows.

Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:41 am

Arion640 wrote:
Aren’t the airbuses on 12 year leases? Will be a while!


It seems like the oldest ones are almost 14 years old.

Delivery A319s
05.15.2006
06.28.2006
07.09.2007
08.08.2007
12.03.2007
01.09.2008
03.03.2008
03.28.2008
11.03.2008
11.03.2008


Delivery 20 oldest A320s
02.23.2006
03.23.2006
04.11.2006
05.30.2006
06.19.2006
07.11.2006
08.24.2006
01.18.2007
01.26.2007
02.23.2007
04.27.2007
06.12.2007
09.13.2007
12.18.2007
02.19.2008
04.14.2008
​04.15.2008
05.08.2008
10.28.2008
11.04.2008
 
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SQ22
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Re: Alaska Airlines "Proudly All Boeing" slogan near cockpit windows

Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:10 am

Thread locked for turning into a flamewar after cleanup.

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