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NYCAAer
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 3:01 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
AA100 wrote:
Looks like AA will schedule 777-300ER on RDU-LHR for winter 2020/21; starting in October through to March.

Interesting to see them schedule this - appreciate schedules are not very reliable at the moment but could this be due to cargo demand? Or perhaps one route they know they will see business demand return ? Or is it simply aircraft rotational reasons


This one is a real head-scratcher. The only thing that I can think of is that a 772 wasn’t available for the times needed.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 3:10 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

I would've expected to see a 787-9 on the route before American's most premium flagship aircraft. The 777-300ER isn't even used out of PHL, CLT, ORD, PHX, BOS, etc.

Really wasn't expecting to see the 77W on RDU of all places...


I take it you have not seen the financials of the route? It brings in sizably more money than even CLT-LHR on a per flight basis


No, I haven’t. Do you have a link to the data?

Over the past few summers, the flight seemed fairly open at times. Considering COVID-19 and the fact that this route may not even operate by October, I’m still surprised to see an upgauge during these times.


Not any public data on profit, but the OAG ran analysis on revenue.

RDU-LHR was $50.1M
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/ne ... g/460069/2

CLT-LHR was $91.7M between 2 flights
https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/n ... g/459628/5

For further reference, AUS-LHR was $41.1M even with a B747 for part of the period
https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news ... money.html


Keep in mind RDU is also an enormous biotech center, one of the few industries where travel is still somewhat necessary.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 3:11 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

How is this crazy, it's been a 777-200 route


I would've expected to see a 787-9 on the route before American's most premium flagship aircraft. The 777-300ER isn't even used out of PHL, CLT, ORD, PHX, BOS, etc.

Really wasn't expecting to see the 77W on RDU of all places...


I take it you have not seen the financials of the route? It brings in sizably more money than even CLT-LHR on a per flight basis


There have to be corporate contracts there...like GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca, both of which have major R&D centers in the Research Triangle. Cisco may also have a corporate contract there with UA (which is why SFO-RDU exists as a real route)...but definitely GSK on RDU-LHR.

That said, the B77W is a huge aircraft for an airport not seeing much else passenger-wise more than 200t.
 
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ERJ170
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 3:21 pm

RDU-LHR/CDG is also cargo heavy so even if the passenger Count isn’t full, cargo is full. From what I recall, there was a guarantee on the flight that hasn’t been used since before AA pulled the Eagle hublet, if not sooner. Does anyone know if DL flight has a guarantee? I know there is a standing guarantee for an Asia flight and FRA but the Asia flight can’t be possible until the runway is built and the FRA isn’t in place.. probably until the CDG flight matures even more.. but that’s just my opinion.
Aiming High and going far..
 
chonetsao
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 3:34 pm

AA100 wrote:
Looks like AA will schedule 777-300ER on RDU-LHR for winter 2020/21; starting in October through to March.

Interesting to see them schedule this - appreciate schedules are not very reliable at the moment but could this be due to cargo demand? Or perhaps one route they know they will see business demand return ? Or is it simply aircraft rotational reasons


Wow that is crazy indeed. I understand why AA used B777-200ER on this route. But how AA is going to sell the 8 First class seats and 52 Business classes on the B77W (compare with 36J on B777-220ER now). That is 8F+16J=24F/J extra capacity every day. I mean, it can't be in the contract with GSK and AZ that they will subsidise the F seats. I understand the guarantee is for J not F. And how AA is going to utilise its network to support the passenger numbers on this route? There must be some connection opportunities for AA to sell all the additional seats.

Or Maybe AA will not sell the F seats at all but sell them as J and allocate the seats to elite members. RDU is just not a Flagship First class destination.

Before COVID the RDU B777-200ER is a rotation from JFK. So the rotation was JFK-LHR-RDU-LHR-JFK. I can only assume the W20 RDU route would continue to be JFK rotation, or could be a MIA rotation.
 
row44seatk
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 5:10 pm

Speaking of 777-300ER aircraft utilization, I'm noticing daily 8:45am MIA-DFW beginning June 4th. And then there's a 772 departing an hour later! This among 8 non-stops. :roll:
As long as the galley has Woodford Reserve I'm a happy camper.
 
Shields
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 6:13 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
AA100 wrote:
Looks like AA will schedule 777-300ER on RDU-LHR for winter 2020/21; starting in October through to March.

Interesting to see them schedule this - appreciate schedules are not very reliable at the moment but could this be due to cargo demand? Or perhaps one route they know they will see business demand return ? Or is it simply aircraft rotational reasons


Whaaaaaat. That’s crazy. Didn’t see that coming.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ce-in-w20/


How is this crazy, it's been a 777-200 route


Were you not at all surprised that RDU would see the 773 before CLT, PHL, or even BOS? I was. 30-plus seat capacity upgrade plus the addition of First Class on any route these days is a surprise. I get it, retiring the A330 means that AA has to do some fleet gymnastics--but yes, it is surprising that RDU-LHR, with very little domestic feed, would see the 773.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 7:11 pm

Why not send the 77W on PHL - LHR in the winter when it’s only 1x daily?
 
usairways85
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 7:45 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

I would've expected to see a 787-9 on the route before American's most premium flagship aircraft. The 777-300ER isn't even used out of PHL, CLT, ORD, PHX, BOS, etc.

Really wasn't expecting to see the 77W on RDU of all places...


I take it you have not seen the financials of the route? It brings in sizably more money than even CLT-LHR on a per flight basis


There have to be corporate contracts there...like GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca, both of which have major R&D centers in the Research Triangle. Cisco may also have a corporate contract there with UA (which is why SFO-RDU exists as a real route)...but definitely GSK on RDU-LHR.

That said, the B77W is a huge aircraft for an airport not seeing much else passenger-wise more than 200t.

FWIW, GSK R&D hubs in the US are in suburban Philadelphia (Pharma) and Rockville, MD (Vaccines). RTP is still a GSK corporate hub, but not so much in R&D anymore.
 
Seat1F
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 7:50 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
AA100 wrote:
Looks like AA will schedule 777-300ER on RDU-LHR for winter 2020/21; starting in October through to March.

Interesting to see them schedule this - appreciate schedules are not very reliable at the moment but could this be due to cargo demand? Or perhaps one route they know they will see business demand return ? Or is it simply aircraft rotational reasons


This one is a real head-scratcher. The only thing that I can think of is that a 772 wasn’t available for the times needed.

I would be surprised if the 777-300ER gets used on the RDU-LHR come October. I suppose it could happen if many flights to TYO/HKG/GRU have not been reinstated yet, but it would still surprise me. We shall see.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 7:50 pm

Shields wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

Whaaaaaat. That’s crazy. Didn’t see that coming.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ce-in-w20/


How is this crazy, it's been a 777-200 route


Were you not at all surprised that RDU would see the 773 before CLT, PHL, or even BOS? I was. 30-plus seat capacity upgrade plus the addition of First Class on any route these days is a surprise. I get it, retiring the A330 means that AA has to do some fleet gymnastics--but yes, it is surprising that RDU-LHR, with very little domestic feed, would see the 773.


Maybe slightly, but I wouldn't consider it crazy since LHR is going all 777 & RDU is one of the highest performing routes.

It should be telling that AA was planning to restart RDU-LHR before CLT/PHX/BOS-LHR
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx
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NYCAAer
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 8:13 pm

I’m surprised that the 77W wasn’t deployed on ORD-LHR instead. It’s a market that had the equipment before.
 
CLT704
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 11:40 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Shields wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

How is this crazy, it's been a 777-200 route


Were you not at all surprised that RDU would see the 773 before CLT, PHL, or even BOS? I was. 30-plus seat capacity upgrade plus the addition of First Class on any route these days is a surprise. I get it, retiring the A330 means that AA has to do some fleet gymnastics--but yes, it is surprising that RDU-LHR, with very little domestic feed, would see the 773.


Maybe slightly, but I wouldn't consider it crazy since LHR is going all 777 & RDU is one of the highest performing routes.

It should be telling that AA was planning to restart RDU-LHR before CLT/PHX/BOS-LHR
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx


I don’t think any of that is very “telling”, in regards to CLT at least. With the A333 getting ripped out of the fleet and ultimately the A332 as well. I get the impression AA was uncertain on how they were going to rotate the plane/flight crew out of CLT for the TATL flights. This was before the 777/737 base was announced for CLT.

Looking forward to CLT having a more premium product to LHR twice a day(finally). When things return to "normal" again, I expect CLT-LHR to at least double what rdu-LHR does.
 
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ERJ170
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 12:40 am

CLT704 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Shields wrote:

Were you not at all surprised that RDU would see the 773 before CLT, PHL, or even BOS? I was. 30-plus seat capacity upgrade plus the addition of First Class on any route these days is a surprise. I get it, retiring the A330 means that AA has to do some fleet gymnastics--but yes, it is surprising that RDU-LHR, with very little domestic feed, would see the 773.


Maybe slightly, but I wouldn't consider it crazy since LHR is going all 777 & RDU is one of the highest performing routes.

It should be telling that AA was planning to restart RDU-LHR before CLT/PHX/BOS-LHR
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx


I don’t think any of that is very “telling”, in regards to CLT at least. With the A333 getting ripped out of the fleet and ultimately the A332 as well. I get the impression AA was uncertain on how they were going to rotate the plane/flight crew out of CLT for the TATL flights. This was before the 777/737 base was announced for CLT.

Looking forward to CLT having a more premium product to LHR twice a day(finally). When things return to "normal" again, I expect CLT-LHR to at least double what rdu-LHR does.


Does CLT O&D to LHR measure your RDU? CLT is great for connections. But premium employees are gonna fly out of JFK... I Would expect CLT due to connections.. but RDU is flown ALMOST exclusively on O&D. Which makes it more premium than CLT. Now I don’t know if they are gonna get the filled First Class or upgraded passengers.. but perhaps AA recognized that Business Class is usually full and might as well try the First class since CLT would need the 772s to replace the 33Xs. Who knows.
Aiming High and going far..
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 12:58 am

CLT704 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Shields wrote:

Were you not at all surprised that RDU would see the 773 before CLT, PHL, or even BOS? I was. 30-plus seat capacity upgrade plus the addition of First Class on any route these days is a surprise. I get it, retiring the A330 means that AA has to do some fleet gymnastics--but yes, it is surprising that RDU-LHR, with very little domestic feed, would see the 773.


Maybe slightly, but I wouldn't consider it crazy since LHR is going all 777 & RDU is one of the highest performing routes.

It should be telling that AA was planning to restart RDU-LHR before CLT/PHX/BOS-LHR
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx


I don’t think any of that is very “telling”, in regards to CLT at least. With the A333 getting ripped out of the fleet and ultimately the A332 as well. I get the impression AA was uncertain on how they were going to rotate the plane/flight crew out of CLT for the TATL flights. This was before the 777/737 base was announced for CLT.

Looking forward to CLT having a more premium product to LHR twice a day(finally). When things return to "normal" again, I expect CLT-LHR to at least double what rdu-LHR does.


I'm pretty sure that's not why CLT-LHR was delayed until after RDU, CLT is their second largest hub & LHR is arguably their most important int'l destination, if they wanted to serve the route first they could.

Maybe CLT-LHR could double RDU-LHR volume wise, but RDU-LHR generated sizably more revenue than each of the CLT-LHR flights, even with the CLT flights having higher capacity aircraft.
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USAirALB
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 1:04 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I take it you have not seen the financials of the route? It brings in sizably more money than even CLT-LHR on a per flight basis


No, I haven’t. Do you have a link to the data?

Over the past few summers, the flight seemed fairly open at times. Considering COVID-19 and the fact that this route may not even operate by October, I’m still surprised to see an upgauge during these times.


Not any public data on profit, but the OAG ran analysis on revenue.

RDU-LHR was $50.1M
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/ne ... g/460069/2

CLT-LHR was $91.7M between 2 flights
https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/n ... g/459628/5

For further reference, AUS-LHR was $41.1M even with a B747 for part of the period
https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news ... money.html


Keep in mind RDU is also an enormous biotech center, one of the few industries where travel is still somewhat necessary.

First of all, the links are behind a paywall so the data is essentially moot without a direct link. Regardless, going through the slideshow, I would question the data, especially as revenue does not necessarily equal yield. I find that the flights that the article showed generating the most revenue were simply the routes out of CLT that carried the most passengers, so of course they are going to generate the "most revenue". A CLT-XXX city pair that features 10 A319s/day will naturally generate more revenue than a CLT-YYY city that features 2 777s/day. The CLT-YYY city-pair however could very well be higher yielding than the CLT-XXX if the fares are ultimately higher. CLT-PHX may generate a lot of revenue, but I highly doubt it is one of the highest-yielding routes ex CLT.
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MrPeanut
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 1:08 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Shields wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

How is this crazy, it's been a 777-200 route


Were you not at all surprised that RDU would see the 773 before CLT, PHL, or even BOS? I was. 30-plus seat capacity upgrade plus the addition of First Class on any route these days is a surprise. I get it, retiring the A330 means that AA has to do some fleet gymnastics--but yes, it is surprising that RDU-LHR, with very little domestic feed, would see the 773.


Maybe slightly, but I wouldn't consider it crazy since LHR is going all 777 & RDU is one of the highest performing routes.

It should be telling that AA was planning to restart RDU-LHR before CLT/PHX/BOS-LHR
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx


Both PHX and BOS also have BA on the route, so less urgent for AA to start those routes in the summer.
 
bigb
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 1:42 am

There aren’t any gates in CLT that can fit a 773 length wise, damn thing will stick out onto the alley/ramp.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 1:46 am

bigb wrote:
There aren’t any gates in CLT that can fit a 773 length wise, damn thing will stick out onto the alley/ramp.


In Denver (UA) anytime we get a 300 on B concourse we just have to put some cones out on the outer vehicle roadway to steer traffic from going under the tail. Not a huge deal and it's an approved procedure, I'm sure CLT can figure it out.
 
Roots1
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 1:49 am

bigb wrote:
There aren’t any gates in CLT that can fit a 773 length wise, damn thing will stick out onto the alley/ramp.


A 777-300 is 5 feet shorter than the A340-600 that Lufthansa used to regularly fly in and park on Concourse D. It doesn’t work well but it can be done.
 
USAirALB
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 1:50 am

bigb wrote:
There aren’t any gates in CLT that can fit a 773 length wise, damn thing will stick out onto the alley/ramp.

D10-13 can.
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Midwestindy
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 4:19 am

USAirALB wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

No, I haven’t. Do you have a link to the data?

Over the past few summers, the flight seemed fairly open at times. Considering COVID-19 and the fact that this route may not even operate by October, I’m still surprised to see an upgauge during these times.


Not any public data on profit, but the OAG ran analysis on revenue.

RDU-LHR was $50.1M
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/ne ... g/460069/2

CLT-LHR was $91.7M between 2 flights
https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/n ... g/459628/5

For further reference, AUS-LHR was $41.1M even with a B747 for part of the period
https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news ... money.html


Keep in mind RDU is also an enormous biotech center, one of the few industries where travel is still somewhat necessary.

First of all, the links are behind a paywall so the data is essentially moot without a direct link. Regardless, going through the slideshow, I would question the data, especially as revenue does not necessarily equal yield. I find that the flights that the article showed generating the most revenue were simply the routes out of CLT that carried the most passengers, so of course they are going to generate the "most revenue". A CLT-XXX city pair that features 10 A319s/day will naturally generate more revenue than a CLT-YYY city that features 2 777s/day. The CLT-YYY city-pair however could very well be higher yielding than the CLT-XXX if the fares are ultimately higher. CLT-PHX may generate a lot of revenue, but I highly doubt it is one of the highest-yielding routes ex CLT.


Data is moot without a “direct” link? Just because you cannot see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Do you want me to screenshot the entire article?

Besides it doesn't take much to do a breakdown:
(May 2018-April 2019 is when analysis was conducted)

CLT-LHR
Total Passengers = 158,323, 681 Total departures, 232.5 pax/dep
Total Revenue = $91.7 M
Revenue/Dep=$134,655
Revenue/Pax=$579.2


RDU-LHR
Total Passengers= 68,527, 354 Total departures, 193.6 pax/dep
Total Revenue = $50.1 M
Revenue/Dep=$141,525
Revenue/Pax=$731.0

Yield won't change the data much since they are only ~100 miles different, but I'll add it anyway
Yield RDU = 0.1888
Yield CLT = 0.1451

Clearly RDU is higher performing
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MLIAA
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 4:47 am

Since AA will at some point be flying 777s from LHR to all hubs, plus SEA RDU & BOS, would it be feasible for AA to open an international crew base at LHR? Carriers like Cathay Pacific as well as FedEx & UPS have international bases. If not, that’s a lot of out of base flying for the only 777 bases being LAX DFW MIA CLT & JFK.
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LAXintl
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 5:43 am

Overseas crew bases are from another era.
Progressively airlines including US carriers are closing them down. Even CX has closed 5 bases in last year alone.
Also opening new overseas base while US employees are on furlough would be a battle royale.
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UPlog
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 5:47 am

MLIAA wrote:
Since AA will at some point be flying 777s from LHR to all hubs, plus SEA RDU & BOS, would it be feasible for AA to open an international crew base at LHR? Carriers like Cathay Pacific as well as FedEx & UPS have international bases. If not, that’s a lot of out of base flying for the only 777 bases being LAX DFW MIA CLT & JFK.


UPS has no overseas bases. Only domiciles are ANC, MIA, ONT and SFD
I fly your boxes
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 11:45 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
There have to be corporate contracts there...like GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca, both of which have major R&D centers in the Research Triangle. Cisco may also have a corporate contract there with UA (which is why SFO-RDU exists as a real route)...but definitely GSK on RDU-LHR.

That said, the B77W is a huge aircraft for an airport not seeing much else passenger-wise more than 200t.


There’s corporate contracts on every flight. RDU is also not a hub, but has seen the 772 since 2001 (it was back to 762 for a while after 2007/8 recession). I’d been hearing 77W upgauge rumors for months from my fiends at RDU. Who knows if it’ll actually happen this fall with Covid. If quarantine rules are still in effect (or go back into effect), I don’t see many TATL flights resuming. A 14 day quarantine kills the market.

There’s a lot of tech traffic on RDUSFO, but the RDU SFO flights are likely more for TPAC connections.
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JohanTally
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 1:24 am

Busy at CLT this weekend. Might have to bring TSA scheduling back to normal..

https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/25/insanely ... s-flights/
 
OB1504
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 3:58 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

I know it's in its own thread now, but I would be surprised if the B772s that are not reconfigured actually return to service


All 777-200ERs have been reconfigured, unless you’re talking about the ones with Zodiac Concept D seats?


That is what I mean...the Concept D ones.


The fact that the Concept D seat is still flying around in the first place shows that AA doesn’t care about a consistent product so I doubt the seats would play a role in determining which 777s get retired.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
As for CLT, if AA has to draw back, I see B6 possibly planning an entry into that market, using the A220.


CLT is an AA fortress hub and I see it holding on until the end. JetBlue would be insane to try to make a play for it against such a deeply entrenched airline.

That being said, if things at AA get to the point where they have to start selling off parts of the network, I could see JetBlue being interested in the Latin American routes.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 11:12 am

OB1504 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

All 777-200ERs have been reconfigured, unless you’re talking about the ones with Zodiac Concept D seats?


That is what I mean...the Concept D ones.


The fact that the Concept D seat is still flying around in the first place shows that AA doesn’t care about a consistent product so I doubt the seats would play a role in determining which 777s get retired.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
As for CLT, if AA has to draw back, I see B6 possibly planning an entry into that market, using the A220.


CLT is an AA fortress hub and I see it holding on until the end. JetBlue would be insane to try to make a play for it against such a deeply entrenched airline.

That being said, if things at AA get to the point where they have to start selling off parts of the network, I could see JetBlue being interested in the Latin American routes.


AA will see many challenges in Latin America this year, the extent of which will depend on how far, wide, and long the COVID19 situation lasts there, notably in Brazil. That said, it's highly unlikely AA would sell off the Latin America network wholesale, and it is laughable to think B6 would be the one buying it. If AA sells the Latin network, it would have to shut MIA as a hub, and that's not in the cards. After DFW and CLT, MIA is by some accounts, the third most profitable hub in the AA network and moves a lot of cargo.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 11:14 am

NYCAAer wrote:
I’m surprised that the 77W wasn’t deployed on ORD-LHR instead. It’s a market that had the equipment before.


AA has focused the long haul operation at ORD (what's left of it) around the 787 for some time.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 11:16 am

Seat1F wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
AA100 wrote:
Looks like AA will schedule 777-300ER on RDU-LHR for winter 2020/21; starting in October through to March.

Interesting to see them schedule this - appreciate schedules are not very reliable at the moment but could this be due to cargo demand? Or perhaps one route they know they will see business demand return ? Or is it simply aircraft rotational reasons


This one is a real head-scratcher. The only thing that I can think of is that a 772 wasn’t available for the times needed.

I would be surprised if the 777-300ER gets used on the RDU-LHR come October. I suppose it could happen if many flights to TYO/HKG/GRU have not been reinstated yet, but it would still surprise me. We shall see.


Agreed, the 77W seems like way too much plane for RDU-LHR, even with the historical performance of the route and the corporate contracts aligned to it, but it could be a way to increase cargo capacity between two biotech hubs for a time.
 
tphuang
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 11:30 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

That is what I mean...the Concept D ones.


The fact that the Concept D seat is still flying around in the first place shows that AA doesn’t care about a consistent product so I doubt the seats would play a role in determining which 777s get retired.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
As for CLT, if AA has to draw back, I see B6 possibly planning an entry into that market, using the A220.


CLT is an AA fortress hub and I see it holding on until the end. JetBlue would be insane to try to make a play for it against such a deeply entrenched airline.

That being said, if things at AA get to the point where they have to start selling off parts of the network, I could see JetBlue being interested in the Latin American routes.


AA will see many challenges in Latin America this year, the extent of which will depend on how far, wide, and long the COVID19 situation lasts there, notably in Brazil. That said, it's highly unlikely AA would sell off the Latin America network wholesale, and it is laughable to think B6 would be the one buying it. If AA sells the Latin network, it would have to shut MIA as a hub, and that's not in the cards. After DFW and CLT, MIA is by some accounts, the third most profitable hub in the AA network and moves a lot of cargo.


Not even close. MIA is one of the worst performing hubs due to LCC pressure at FLL and a whole lot of international pressure at MIA. DCA is AA's most profitable hub as they've said many times.

After LGA/JFK/LAX, MIA is the lowest margined hub.

Not to say I think B6 would be interested in buying it. That would be beyond crazy.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am

Maybe the answer is buried further back in this thread, but would like to get serious opinions on what AA's network restoration will look like specifically when it comes to JFK and the remaining long hauls that are part of the footprint there. I am not interested in replies from the usual DL fanboys (this isn't an AA vs. B6/DL question) and those types of replies here are just annoying and generally misinformed, but some quick thoughts here on the routes in question:

FCO - Was doing well in the 2019 season, and it was extended to late October (it's a seasonal route). Won't come back for 2020 but wondering if it might be restarted earlier again in 2021 as was the plan for 2020 (it was to have come back in March this year, instead of the usual May-October schedule).
MXP - Supposedly coming back in September/October. Lots of talk about this route always being at risk with AA due to competition from AZ, DL, EK, and UA at EWR but with Air Italy gone, EK under some pressure, and the future of AZ in SkyTeam increasingly in doubt, wondering if this route does eventually come back with AA. I have flown it a few times (all pre-COVID) and it always was full and per the crew, carries a ton of cargo.
CDG - This will very likely come back. Capacity cuts on NYC-CDG/ORY are very much there with DY gone until 2021 (if they ever come back), AF grounding the 380 for good, and the low cost carriers based in France likely not flying NYC-PAR routes for a long time. CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe and AA has strong POS on the France side. Have flown it a lot pre COVID and it seems to alternate a bit between being full and occasionally being empty, but the route has existed since 1987.
MAD - Hub route. Was cut during the winter 2019/2020 season to less than daily. Could see this being postponed well into 2021.
BCN - Big leisure rote and often full but COVID obviously changed this. I still think it will come back, but it will depend on the rebound (if it comes) in the cruise industry.
LHR - Will this go back to 4 x daily, including 2 x 77W and 2 x 772 in peak flying season? The AA/BA NYC-LHR route is a $1BN pool of revenue, now severely diminished, but the two still lead the traffic figures and AA needs the BA connectivity at LHR.
GRU - Won't come back until COVID gets under control in Brazil if that happens.
EZE - This is a profitable route for AA for both pax and cargo, but Argentina is closed until September.
GIG - Turned seasonal, and with LATAM now in bankruptcy and no longer a partner, this has always been a leisure / VFR route above a business one. AA has flown it on and off since the 90s. My guess is that it won't come back.

Lastly, LAX/SFO frequencies....as CA reopens and so does NY, when do we think these go back (or close to) their normal frequency of 10x LAX and 5 x SFO or do some A321Ts get converted to standard A321 configs for good?
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 1:37 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:

Agreed, the 77W seems like way too much plane for RDU-LHR, even with the historical performance of the route and the corporate contracts aligned to it, but it could be a way to increase cargo capacity between two biotech hubs for a time.


It definitely won't be for cargo. The cargo could very easily be trucked to CLT (~3hr via truck) and sent non-stop to many destinations in Europe (not just LHR). Just like most of UA's RDU-Eur cargo is trucked (~5hr.) to/from IAD. This is a very common process in the cargo biz.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 1:54 pm

JohanTally wrote:
Busy at CLT this weekend. Might have to bring TSA scheduling back to normal..

https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/25/insanely ... s-flights/


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/24/what-yo ... demic.html

AA's flights were averaging 2/3rds full on Friday, passengers declined 82% YOY on a 80% capacity reduction YOY
https://twitter.com/RossFeinstein/statu ... 2888270848
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
Cointrin330
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 2:00 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Agreed, the 77W seems like way too much plane for RDU-LHR, even with the historical performance of the route and the corporate contracts aligned to it, but it could be a way to increase cargo capacity between two biotech hubs for a time.


It definitely won't be for cargo. The cargo could very easily be trucked to CLT (~3hr via truck) and sent non-stop to many destinations in Europe (not just LHR). Just like most of UA's RDU-Eur cargo is trucked (~5hr.) to/from IAD. This is a very common process in the cargo biz.


Makes sense but if AA is truly planning to fly a 77W between RDU and LHR, the biggest plane in the fleet, in the current environment and even with corporate contracts, think they will struggle to fill the plane profitably, no?
 
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cathay747
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 3:17 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG - This will very likely come back. CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe and AA has strong POS on the France side. Have flown it a lot pre COVID and it seems to alternate a bit between being full and occasionally being empty, but the route has existed since 1987.


I can't respond intelligently to your overall post, but I would like to ask, for anybody who knows, why is this so with CDG? Seems odd to me that CDG would be their #2 European station/spoke given it's a SkyTeam hub and they shouldn't have any feed on that end; also seems strange that they'd have strong POS on the French side. What gives?
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bigb
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 3:35 pm

Roots1 wrote:
bigb wrote:
There aren’t any gates in CLT that can fit a 773 length wise, damn thing will stick out onto the alley/ramp.


A 777-300 is 5 feet shorter than the A340-600 that Lufthansa used to regularly fly in and park on Concourse D. It doesn’t work well but it can be done.


Lufthansa has brought the A346 to CLT for as long as I’ve been operating in and out of CL. It’s been mainly their A330s and now A350s
 
bigb
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 3:39 pm

USAirALB wrote:
bigb wrote:
There aren’t any gates in CLT that can fit a 773 length wise, damn thing will stick out onto the alley/ramp.

D10-13 can.


I have to ask, what do you based this off of? Hmm, D-12,D-13,D-11 are all between spot 27 and 26. That’s a very tight fit.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 3:39 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
I’m surprised that the 77W wasn’t deployed on ORD-LHR instead. It’s a market that had the equipment before.


AA has focused the long haul operation at ORD (what's left of it) around the 787 for some time.


But that’s going to change, with all four ORD-LHR flights going 772. The 777 has turned up occasionally even as ORD remained a 787 base, on both LHR and on CDG.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 4:18 pm

cathay747 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG - This will very likely come back. CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe and AA has strong POS on the France side. Have flown it a lot pre COVID and it seems to alternate a bit between being full and occasionally being empty, but the route has existed since 1987.


I can't respond intelligently to your overall post, but I would like to ask, for anybody who knows, why is this so with CDG? Seems odd to me that CDG would be their #2 European station/spoke given it's a SkyTeam hub and they shouldn't have any feed on that end; also seems strange that they'd have strong POS on the French side. What gives?


It's a good question. Outside of COVID19, AA serves CDG year round from JFK, PHL, MIA, DFW and seasonally from CLT (a second frequency from DFW), and also from ORD. In the past, AA also flew BOS-Paris. It is a good question, given the absence of feed on the CDG end, but Paris is, in normal times, a major destination for tourism and for business, and AA has been in the market a very long time. The JFK service was launched in 1987 and at one point, was 2 x daily. On the PHL/MIA/DFW/CLT/ORD end, AA has plenty of feed given the hub status each of these airports have. AA's history with Paris is interesting. It served the market at ORY, not CDG, until the mid-2000s and was the last of the US carriers to move to CDG. The cargo and passenger demand is definitely there to make the route profitable and likely for the same reason UA has a good footprint on US-Paris service as well, flying it (again, in normal non-COVID land) EWR, SFO, ORD, IAD. By some measures, CDG is the #2 destination in Europe after LHR. The AA footprint at CDG is pretty good, with a nice Admiral's Club of a decent size and offering. The POS strength in France may be a combination of factors, including the large amount of business traffic between the two countries and specifically for the US ones, the ones that have AA as their preferred carrier.

Another good comparison is AMS and UA. It always has been a strong station for UA, in spite of no feed on the AMS end. UA has service there currently, from EWR, IAD, ORD, IAH, and SFO was added I think in 2019.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 4:19 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Agreed, the 77W seems like way too much plane for RDU-LHR, even with the historical performance of the route and the corporate contracts aligned to it, but it could be a way to increase cargo capacity between two biotech hubs for a time.


It definitely won't be for cargo. The cargo could very easily be trucked to CLT (~3hr via truck) and sent non-stop to many destinations in Europe (not just LHR). Just like most of UA's RDU-Eur cargo is trucked (~5hr.) to/from IAD. This is a very common process in the cargo biz.


Makes sense but if AA is truly planning to fly a 77W between RDU and LHR, the biggest plane in the fleet, in the current environment and even with corporate contracts, think they will struggle to fill the plane profitably, no?


In the current environment with 14 day quarantines on both ends, no, I don't think it's going to be profitable at all. I seriously doubt any TATL pax flight is profitable with those restrictions. Now this fall, or going forward, who knows. I do know the 77W was discussed for the route prior to the Covid 19 outbreak. I was as surprised as anyone to hear that, but since that route has survived other downturns (9/11, 2007-8 housing bubble/crash), I think it's safe to say it will be back at some level. I'm am not very up to date on fleet moves that AA has made during this pandemic, but maybe there's some operational reasons for it as well.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1991
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 4:20 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
I’m surprised that the 77W wasn’t deployed on ORD-LHR instead. It’s a market that had the equipment before.


AA has focused the long haul operation at ORD (what's left of it) around the 787 for some time.


But that’s going to change, with all four ORD-LHR flights going 772. The 777 has turned up occasionally even as ORD remained a 787 base, on both LHR and on CDG.


Got it. OK. Interesting, I guess the 763 and 752 retirements mean the 78s are needed (in a normal operating environment) in other markets, like PHL and some MIA to Latin America where the 772 is too big.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 4:35 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG - This will very likely come back. CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe and AA has strong POS on the France side. Have flown it a lot pre COVID and it seems to alternate a bit between being full and occasionally being empty, but the route has existed since 1987.


I can't respond intelligently to your overall post, but I would like to ask, for anybody who knows, why is this so with CDG? Seems odd to me that CDG would be their #2 European station/spoke given it's a SkyTeam hub and they shouldn't have any feed on that end; also seems strange that they'd have strong POS on the French side. What gives?


It's a good question. Outside of COVID19, AA serves CDG year round from JFK, PHL, MIA, DFW and seasonally from CLT (a second frequency from DFW), and also from ORD. In the past, AA also flew BOS-Paris. It is a good question, given the absence of feed on the CDG end, but Paris is, in normal times, a major destination for tourism and for business, and AA has been in the market a very long time. The JFK service was launched in 1987 and at one point, was 2 x daily. On the PHL/MIA/DFW/CLT/ORD end, AA has plenty of feed given the hub status each of these airports have. AA's history with Paris is interesting. It served the market at ORY, not CDG, until the mid-2000s and was the last of the US carriers to move to CDG.


We moved to CDG in 1999. I remember that Carty was nervous about the move, thinking that what made AA so strong in the Paris market was the fact we were serving ORY, and it provided a competitive advantage flying out of a less congested airport and then the French government wanted all long haul out of CDG and AA had no choice in the matter. But AA maintained its presence, and for a hot minute we also flew SJC-CDG and LAX-CDG. Those routes were casualties of 9/11, and never came back. SJC was dismantled as a hub.
 
Ishrion
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 5:23 pm

From jsteeves3 in the BOS Aviation Thread, AA is adding a Saturday-only Boston to Jackson Hole flight running from December 19 to April 3rd. The route’s operated using the A319.

Surprising move imo... AA hasn’t given up on Boston despite everything going on. BOS-JAC seems to be another strategical leisure route that has no direct competition, similar to AA launching BOS-ILM on Saturdays.
 
USAirALB
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 6:56 pm

bigb wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
bigb wrote:
There aren’t any gates in CLT that can fit a 773 length wise, damn thing will stick out onto the alley/ramp.

D10-13 can.


I have to ask, what do you based this off of? Hmm, D-12,D-13,D-11 are all between spot 27 and 26. That’s a very tight fit.

Those are the gates that I know that are able to take A346. D12 can also take a 747-8. A couple of years back (when US was in Star) LH had the airport run tests at D12 to see if it could park a 747-8 there without blocking the taxiway flow, and the tests showed it could. I'm not sure however about the 747-8 and the rest of the D gates.

Both the 747-8 and the A346 are longer than the 77W, so I am not sure why they wouldn't be able to take it.
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kavok
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 7:21 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG - This will very likely come back. CDG is AA's #2 station in Europe and AA has strong POS on the France side. Have flown it a lot pre COVID and it seems to alternate a bit between being full and occasionally being empty, but the route has existed since 1987.


I can't respond intelligently to your overall post, but I would like to ask, for anybody who knows, why is this so with CDG? Seems odd to me that CDG would be their #2 European station/spoke given it's a SkyTeam hub and they shouldn't have any feed on that end; also seems strange that they'd have strong POS on the French side. What gives?


It's a good question. Outside of COVID19, AA serves CDG year round from JFK, PHL, MIA, DFW and seasonally from CLT (a second frequency from DFW), and also from ORD. In the past, AA also flew BOS-Paris. It is a good question, given the absence of feed on the CDG end, but Paris is, in normal times, a major destination for tourism and for business, and AA has been in the market a very long time. The JFK service was launched in 1987 and at one point, was 2 x daily. On the PHL/MIA/DFW/CLT/ORD end, AA has plenty of feed given the hub status each of these airports have. AA's history with Paris is interesting. It served the market at ORY, not CDG, until the mid-2000s and was the last of the US carriers to move to CDG. The cargo and passenger demand is definitely there to make the route profitable and likely for the same reason UA has a good footprint on US-Paris service as well, flying it (again, in normal non-COVID land) EWR, SFO, ORD, IAD. By some measures, CDG is the #2 destination in Europe after LHR. The AA footprint at CDG is pretty good, with a nice Admiral's Club of a decent size and offering. The POS strength in France may be a combination of factors, including the large amount of business traffic between the two countries and specifically for the US ones, the ones that have AA as their preferred carrier.

Another good comparison is AMS and UA. It always has been a strong station for UA, in spite of no feed on the AMS end. UA has service there currently, from EWR, IAD, ORD, IAH, and SFO was added I think in 2019.


It’s worth pointing out also that offering onward connections is far more important on the American side in comparison to the European side. And the reason for that is Europe’s much more developed rail network.

For example, there are “onward connections” from FRA all across Germany via frequent rail service. This rail service is agnostic to which airline you flew in on, and thus a passenger flying into FRA on DL or AA still has an easy “connection” across a good part of Germany.

In the US, the cachement of the airport is limited to the metro area in the city it serves. And thus a flight into DFW for example does not provide for an easy route to get from there to Austin, College Station, etc. unless you are flying AA.
 
bigb
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 7:23 pm

USAirALB wrote:
bigb wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
D10-13 can.


I have to ask, what do you based this off of? Hmm, D-12,D-13,D-11 are all between spot 27 and 26. That’s a very tight fit.

Those are the gates that I know that are able to take A346. D12 can also take a 747-8. A couple of years back (when US was in Star) LH had the airport run tests at D12 to see if it could park a 747-8 there without blocking the taxiway flow, and the tests showed it could. I'm not sure however about the 747-8 and the rest of the D gates.

Both the 747-8 and the A346 are longer than the 77W, so I am not sure why they wouldn't be able to take it.


I am sure the 77W can fit the D gates, I just know it’s a tight taxi between spot 27 and 26. It’s not bad with the 772 there currently.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1991
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 7:42 pm

kavok wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
cathay747 wrote:

I can't respond intelligently to your overall post, but I would like to ask, for anybody who knows, why is this so with CDG? Seems odd to me that CDG would be their #2 European station/spoke given it's a SkyTeam hub and they shouldn't have any feed on that end; also seems strange that they'd have strong POS on the French side. What gives?


It's a good question. Outside of COVID19, AA serves CDG year round from JFK, PHL, MIA, DFW and seasonally from CLT (a second frequency from DFW), and also from ORD. In the past, AA also flew BOS-Paris. It is a good question, given the absence of feed on the CDG end, but Paris is, in normal times, a major destination for tourism and for business, and AA has been in the market a very long time. The JFK service was launched in 1987 and at one point, was 2 x daily. On the PHL/MIA/DFW/CLT/ORD end, AA has plenty of feed given the hub status each of these airports have. AA's history with Paris is interesting. It served the market at ORY, not CDG, until the mid-2000s and was the last of the US carriers to move to CDG. The cargo and passenger demand is definitely there to make the route profitable and likely for the same reason UA has a good footprint on US-Paris service as well, flying it (again, in normal non-COVID land) EWR, SFO, ORD, IAD. By some measures, CDG is the #2 destination in Europe after LHR. The AA footprint at CDG is pretty good, with a nice Admiral's Club of a decent size and offering. The POS strength in France may be a combination of factors, including the large amount of business traffic between the two countries and specifically for the US ones, the ones that have AA as their preferred carrier.

Another good comparison is AMS and UA. It always has been a strong station for UA, in spite of no feed on the AMS end. UA has service there currently, from EWR, IAD, ORD, IAH, and SFO was added I think in 2019.


It’s worth pointing out also that offering onward connections is far more important on the American side in comparison to the European side. And the reason for that is Europe’s much more developed rail network.

For example, there are “onward connections” from FRA all across Germany via frequent rail service. This rail service is agnostic to which airline you flew in on, and thus a passenger flying into FRA on DL or AA still has an easy “connection” across a good part of Germany.

In the US, the cachement of the airport is limited to the metro area in the city it serves. And thus a flight into DFW for example does not provide for an easy route to get from there to Austin, College Station, etc. unless you are flying AA.


Not sure I'd totally agree with that. The connectivity options are what drive the AF/KL/DL partnership, and why DL has (pre COVID) built CDG and AMS out further (AMS was well established in the NW days). Rail is an option yes, but the network AF/KL offers beyond to points too distant for rail in Europe or beyond are crucial. Same goes for BA at LHR, for AA, and FRA and MUC for UA/LH.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 7:45 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
cathay747 wrote:

I can't respond intelligently to your overall post, but I would like to ask, for anybody who knows, why is this so with CDG? Seems odd to me that CDG would be their #2 European station/spoke given it's a SkyTeam hub and they shouldn't have any feed on that end; also seems strange that they'd have strong POS on the French side. What gives?


It's a good question. Outside of COVID19, AA serves CDG year round from JFK, PHL, MIA, DFW and seasonally from CLT (a second frequency from DFW), and also from ORD. In the past, AA also flew BOS-Paris. It is a good question, given the absence of feed on the CDG end, but Paris is, in normal times, a major destination for tourism and for business, and AA has been in the market a very long time. The JFK service was launched in 1987 and at one point, was 2 x daily. On the PHL/MIA/DFW/CLT/ORD end, AA has plenty of feed given the hub status each of these airports have. AA's history with Paris is interesting. It served the market at ORY, not CDG, until the mid-2000s and was the last of the US carriers to move to CDG.


We moved to CDG in 1999. I remember that Carty was nervous about the move, thinking that what made AA so strong in the Paris market was the fact we were serving ORY, and it provided a competitive advantage flying out of a less congested airport and then the French government wanted all long haul out of CDG and AA had no choice in the matter. But AA maintained its presence, and for a hot minute we also flew SJC-CDG and LAX-CDG. Those routes were casualties of 9/11, and never came back. SJC was dismantled as a hub.


Thanks. I forgot that the AA move from ORY to CDG happened pre-9/11. Yes, I remember the short lived SJC-CDG and LAX-CDG operation, which never came back indeed. Yes, AA definitely saw ORY as a competitive advantage given its close proximity to Paris but indeed the move was forced. CO also operated from ORY, and Delta as well, and Tower Air, as I remember. NW was at CDG, as was PA, TW since CDG opened. AA also flew RDU-ORY in the very early 1990s with a 762 but the route was axed when the hub was dismantled.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos