maps4ltd wrote:

Off topic, but I wish Delta would make some moves. They've been stagnant this year; I don't recall them announcing anything since ATL-GEG/BOI. I guess they just have a different pandemic playbook, but it'd be nice to see them try something new and unexpected.

As for the adds, I've been predicted DFW-LGB for a while, especially since DFW-BUR was added. Also interesting to see FLL-JFK, given that JFK saw MCO dropped a year prior. B6 perhaps?
And what ever became of the AUS-SJC/BOS/SJD routes they announced before the pandemic? AUS-MCO is nice to see though.

Delta has added a lot ATL Florida in most major markets is hourly.

TTailedTiger wrote:

I thought AA/B6 were buddies now and B6 would handle the JFK/BOS domestic network? Can AA really do no better than these extremely saturated routes? Their ORD network is in shambles and in serious need of revitalization. But LCC dominated FLL is what they prioritize?

I think we're seeing AA get comfortable with a Number 3 position behind UA and WN in Chicago, the same way AA has 'resized' at LAX and JFK. It doesn't have the ORD destination set to be competitive with UA; it doesn't have the costs to compete with WN - so it has stopped trying.

As for FLL - they know FLL is a big market. Apparently they think their added capacity (and competitors' responses to it) won't crash fares as they try to fill planes. We'll see. They may be thinking of this as a market stimulation play - high price elasticity of demand.

TYWoolman wrote:

maps4ltd wrote:

Off topic, but I wish Delta would make some moves. They've been stagnant this year; I don't recall them announcing anything since ATL-GEG/BOI. I guess they just have a different pandemic playbook, but it'd be nice to see them try something new and unexpected.

I think their premise is that if people don't think it's safe to fly what good are new routes with empty planes? I think Delta is waiting it out. The Delta Pandemic Playbook reads: get leaner, more efficient, wait, wait, waaaaait....wait for it.....Pounce!

What's your evidence that any pouncing is planned, really? DL and UA have withdrawn capacity and flown (even more empty) planes to maintain yield, in contrast to WN and AA specifically. DL shows more certainty (and I'm not asserting they're right) that demand will be down for YEARS because they paid people big $$$ to go away, rather than furloughing (AA/UA) or continuing to carry lots of employees they don't need (WN). DL still has lots of spare capacity but they couldn't have a full return to 2019 -- 18,000 employees are gone. (Sure, they can be replaced - and with new employees at the bottom of the scale - but that can't be quick.)

miaami wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

Nice to see FLL-LAX back. IIRC it might have been flown twice daily with 752s at one point.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

AA actually flew FLL-CCS for about a year or so, just as the political situation was making things more difficult. I believe they may have briefly flown FLL-SJO also at one point.

SJO was indeed operated at one point.

FLL-LAX was up to 4X daily at one time, all 757s

Yep, I recall that. At the same time as Song (DL) was doing maybe 10X weekly 757 runs from FLL-LAX.

FLL-LAX will now be a route where AA, AS & B6 all compete. So much for colluding as DL likes to allege. Of course DL is on the route also, but maybe can safely drop their 1x day flight which seemed designed to hurt AS & B6, now the AA (who consistently flew FLL-LAX for well over a decade at one point) is back on the route.

This is fascinating.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

FLL-LAX will now be a route where AA, AS & B6 all compete. So much for colluding as DL likes to allege. Of course DL is on the route also, but maybe can safely drop their 1x day flight which seemed designed to hurt AS & B6, now the AA (who consistently flew FLL-LAX for well over a decade at one point) is back on the route.

This is fascinating.

Can also be interpreted as 3 alliance carriers adding capacity to drive out competition. Yes, fascinating.

MIflyer12 wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

maps4ltd wrote:

Off topic, but I wish Delta would make some moves. They've been stagnant this year; I don't recall them announcing anything since ATL-GEG/BOI. I guess they just have a different pandemic playbook, but it'd be nice to see them try something new and unexpected.

I think their premise is that if people don't think it's safe to fly what good are new routes with empty planes? I think Delta is waiting it out. The Delta Pandemic Playbook reads: get leaner, more efficient, wait, wait, waaaaait....wait for it.....Pounce!

What's your evidence that any pouncing is planned, really? DL and UA have withdrawn capacity and flown (even more empty) planes to maintain yield, in contrast to WN and AA specifically. DL shows more certainty (and I'm not asserting they're right) that demand will be down for YEARS because they paid people big $$$ to go away, rather than furloughing (AA/UA) or continuing to carry lots of employees they don't need (WN). DL still has lots of spare capacity but they couldn't have a full return to 2019 -- 18,000 employees are gone. (Sure, they can be replaced - and with new employees at the bottom of the scale - but that can't be quick.)

Well, Delta has been known to be quietly agressive in the past (80's), so it seems that they are quiet now, agressive about cost-cutting, until such time a strategic opportunity arises post-pandemic. No evidence that is their plan, but if history is our guide I'd say I'm on the right track.

klm617 wrote:

maps4ltd wrote:

Off topic, but I wish Delta would make some moves. They've been stagnant this year; I don't recall them announcing anything since ATL-GEG/BOI. I guess they just have a different pandemic playbook, but it'd be nice to see them try something new and unexpected.

As for the adds, I've been predicted DFW-LGB for a while, especially since DFW-BUR was added. Also interesting to see FLL-JFK, given that JFK saw MCO dropped a year prior. B6 perhaps?
And what ever became of the AUS-SJC/BOS/SJD routes they announced before the pandemic? AUS-MCO is nice to see though.

Delta has added a lot ATL Florida in most major markets is hourly.

And a lot of routes into Florida that other carriers are adding are routes that DL already flew (i.e., Florida to NE, LAX, secondary markets, etc.); DL doesn't have as much to add in those areas because they were already there.

DL has not however joined in on adding service to the leisure markets out west (especially PSP, though they did add a 1x daily flight to LAX). I'm a bit surprised they don't seem to be bringing back the LAS P2P operation they were flying pre-pandemic.

We’ll see how many of these new competing routes ever launch or stick around long term. It provides a great show to feds until the partnership is approved and/or just using extra capacity until we come out of the pandemic.

TYWoolman wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

FLL-LAX will now be a route where AA, AS & B6 all compete. So much for colluding as DL likes to allege. Of course DL is on the route also, but maybe can safely drop their 1x day flight which seemed designed to hurt AS & B6, now the AA (who consistently flew FLL-LAX for well over a decade at one point) is back on the route.

This is fascinating.

Can also be interpreted as 3 alliance carriers adding capacity to drive out competition. Yes, fascinating.

This is true. The 1x daily NK isn't really competing for the same passengers so if the 1x DL on FLL-LAX is dropped, it can be seen depending on your perspective as collusion to knock out the primary enemy carrier of all 3 "partners."

Great point. Hasn't really wrapped my head around that, but makes perfect sense.

AA has tried FLL to LAX and JFK over the years and it's always been pulled. Years back AA flew LGA/FLL and eventually tried JFK/FLL instead. If AA did FLL/BOS that was many years back. I'm sure AA will fill planes but won't make any money on any of these routes. Generate cash yes, make a profit no.

HVNandrew wrote:

I'm a bit surprised they don't seem to be bringing back the LAS P2P operation they were flying pre-pandemic.

I'm not surprised by that at all. DL was hoping for higher-end traffic on their LAS P2P routes, which is obviously not possible now and for the foreseeable future.

With only minimal leisure travel to cater to, F9, NK, and WN would crush DL on all of those routes.

Cointrin330 wrote:

AA flew NYC-FLL (albeit once a day for a time before cutting it). Interesting adds, and I suspect these are about increasing demand given the number of people, notably from the northeast, who have decamped to Florida (some permanent, some to second homes) and the small but growing number of businesses that are making statements about establishing a larger Florida presence, like Goldman Sachs Asset Management (the hedge funds are really just about their founders replacing a NY or CT address to FL for tax reasons, core ops and staff will, for now remain in the NY area). However, all these adds seem to suggest there is no AA/B6 anything on the horizon. A merger is likely off the table for a long time as neither carrier can afford it, but down the road, maybe? The industry is desperate and starting to replicate dumping seats in many markets similar to what was happening in the 1980s and 1990s. The consumer will benefit in the short run with $49 fares to FLL. Then it will get ugly. Someone will file Chapter 11. And all the people claiming Florida is the antidote to living in NYC, BOS, etc...will be running back once the next Hurricane Andrew hits.

you are going to be really disappointed in a couple of months then. AA/B6 partnership only just "passed' the DOJ review and the details of ff arrangement just finished recently. AA supposedly will announce what it's ff benefits with AS & B6 will look like in a few weeks. AS partnership was announced months before B6 and nothing obvious has happened yet. Most of the benefit of AA/B6 deal probably won't be seen until 2022. AA has said goodbye to 50 seaters out of NYC. Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

tphuang wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

AA flew NYC-FLL (albeit once a day for a time before cutting it). Interesting adds, and I suspect these are about increasing demand given the number of people, notably from the northeast, who have decamped to Florida (some permanent, some to second homes) and the small but growing number of businesses that are making statements about establishing a larger Florida presence, like Goldman Sachs Asset Management (the hedge funds are really just about their founders replacing a NY or CT address to FL for tax reasons, core ops and staff will, for now remain in the NY area). However, all these adds seem to suggest there is no AA/B6 anything on the horizon. A merger is likely off the table for a long time as neither carrier can afford it, but down the road, maybe? The industry is desperate and starting to replicate dumping seats in many markets similar to what was happening in the 1980s and 1990s. The consumer will benefit in the short run with $49 fares to FLL. Then it will get ugly. Someone will file Chapter 11. And all the people claiming Florida is the antidote to living in NYC, BOS, etc...will be running back once the next Hurricane Andrew hits.

you are going to be really disappointed in a couple of months then. AA/B6 partnership only just "passed' the DOJ review and the details of ff arrangement just finished recently. AA supposedly will announce what it's ff benefits with AS & B6 will look like in a few weeks. AS partnership was announced months before B6 and nothing obvious has happened yet. Most of the benefit of AA/B6 deal probably won't be seen until 2022. AA has said goodbye to 50 seaters out of NYC. Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

Ah there you go again presenting option as facts. Insane

AS+AA FF benefits were announced weeks ago.

HVNandrew wrote:

klm617 wrote:

maps4ltd wrote:

Off topic, but I wish Delta would make some moves. They've been stagnant this year; I don't recall them announcing anything since ATL-GEG/BOI. I guess they just have a different pandemic playbook, but it'd be nice to see them try something new and unexpected.

As for the adds, I've been predicted DFW-LGB for a while, especially since DFW-BUR was added. Also interesting to see FLL-JFK, given that JFK saw MCO dropped a year prior. B6 perhaps?
And what ever became of the AUS-SJC/BOS/SJD routes they announced before the pandemic? AUS-MCO is nice to see though.

Delta has added a lot ATL Florida in most major markets is hourly.

And a lot of routes into Florida that other carriers are adding are routes that DL already flew (i.e., Florida to NE, LAX, secondary markets, etc.); DL doesn't have as much to add in those areas because they were already there.

DL has not however joined in on adding service to the leisure markets out west (especially PSP, though they did add a 1x daily flight to LAX). I'm a bit surprised they don't seem to be bringing back the LAS P2P operation they were flying pre-pandemic.

Yes you would think they would add flights to DTW to make more connection opportunities out west for people from New York and New England. But maybe Delta feels that it is better positioned to handle Florida and the Caribbean and leave out west to it's competitors.

tphuang wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

AA flew NYC-FLL (albeit once a day for a time before cutting it). Interesting adds, and I suspect these are about increasing demand given the number of people, notably from the northeast, who have decamped to Florida (some permanent, some to second homes) and the small but growing number of businesses that are making statements about establishing a larger Florida presence, like Goldman Sachs Asset Management (the hedge funds are really just about their founders replacing a NY or CT address to FL for tax reasons, core ops and staff will, for now remain in the NY area). However, all these adds seem to suggest there is no AA/B6 anything on the horizon. A merger is likely off the table for a long time as neither carrier can afford it, but down the road, maybe? The industry is desperate and starting to replicate dumping seats in many markets similar to what was happening in the 1980s and 1990s. The consumer will benefit in the short run with $49 fares to FLL. Then it will get ugly. Someone will file Chapter 11. And all the people claiming Florida is the antidote to living in NYC, BOS, etc...will be running back once the next Hurricane Andrew hits.

you are going to be really disappointed in a couple of months then. AA/B6 partnership only just "passed' the DOJ review and the details of ff arrangement just finished recently. AA supposedly will announce what it's ff benefits with AS & B6 will look like in a few weeks. AS partnership was announced months before B6 and nothing obvious has happened yet. Most of the benefit of AA/B6 deal probably won't be seen until 2022. AA has said goodbye to 50 seaters out of NYC. Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

You're carried away by your emotional brand love for B6 and that's clouding your ability to see facts. AS/AA only just announced reciprocal benefits in the last few weeks. B6 has a great product and a significant slice of the market in NYC for sure, but it trails DL, UA, and even AA in corporate contracts, and thus needs the AA partnership to shore that up (while AA needs B6 to remain relevant in the market. Not sure about your last sentence either in terms of "relevance". That's not a business fact. That's just an opinion.

MAH4546 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

AA flew NYC-FLL (albeit once a day for a time before cutting it). Interesting adds, and I suspect these are about increasing demand given the number of people, notably from the northeast, who have decamped to Florida (some permanent, some to second homes) and the small but growing number of businesses that are making statements about establishing a larger Florida presence, like Goldman Sachs Asset Management (the hedge funds are really just about their founders replacing a NY or CT address to FL for tax reasons, core ops and staff will, for now remain in the NY area). However, all these adds seem to suggest there is no AA/B6 anything on the horizon. A merger is likely off the table for a long time as neither carrier can afford it, but down the road, maybe? The industry is desperate and starting to replicate dumping seats in many markets similar to what was happening in the 1980s and 1990s. The consumer will benefit in the short run with $49 fares to FLL. Then it will get ugly. Someone will file Chapter 11. And all the people claiming Florida is the antidote to living in NYC, BOS, etc...will be running back once the next Hurricane Andrew hits.

you are going to be really disappointed in a couple of months then. AA/B6 partnership only just "passed' the DOJ review and the details of ff arrangement just finished recently. AA supposedly will announce what it's ff benefits with AS & B6 will look like in a few weeks. AS partnership was announced months before B6 and nothing obvious has happened yet. Most of the benefit of AA/B6 deal probably won't be seen until 2022. AA has said goodbye to 50 seaters out of NYC. Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

Ah there you go again presenting option as facts. Insane

AS+AA FF benefits were announced weeks ago.

AA specifically said that reciprocal upgrades with AS/B6 Will be announced in a few weeks.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... tnerships/

https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Tran ... rtnerships
"In the West Coast, where we've started an international hub in Seattle connecting to Alaska's domestic hub, we'll be able to offer more people more connectivity through Seattle and people in Seattle more access to the world. We'll do the same thing with JetBlue in New York and Boston, where we anticipate adding the first new American Airlines international flights out of New York in five or six years when we start Tel Aviv and Athens next year.

The other thing we're looking to do to fulfill a promise is make it so the loyal customers of one airline are recognized on the other airline, and that when flying on our partnerships, benefits are enhanced. We recently announced with Alaska the largest reciprocal upgrade proposition of its kind anywhere in the world. If you are an AAdvantage Elite Member, you can be upgraded on an entirely Alaska-operated flight and still have the same kind of status as if you were on an American-operated flight. The same thing is true for [Alaska's] Mileage Plan members. We'll roll out something similar with JetBlue. "

Where are the AS codeshares? Obviously, the JetBlue integration will be later since the deal got announced later.

AA closed its Envoy base (50 seaters) in NYC a couple of months ago.
viewtopic.php?t=1370337&start=1000

There has been no indication that AA/B6 partnership will no go forward except some AA supporters who are unnerved by the thought that JetBlue will take over a lot of those AA flying.

Where are your evidences?

MAH4546 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

AA flew NYC-FLL (albeit once a day for a time before cutting it). Interesting adds, and I suspect these are about increasing demand given the number of people, notably from the northeast, who have decamped to Florida (some permanent, some to second homes) and the small but growing number of businesses that are making statements about establishing a larger Florida presence, like Goldman Sachs Asset Management (the hedge funds are really just about their founders replacing a NY or CT address to FL for tax reasons, core ops and staff will, for now remain in the NY area). However, all these adds seem to suggest there is no AA/B6 anything on the horizon. A merger is likely off the table for a long time as neither carrier can afford it, but down the road, maybe? The industry is desperate and starting to replicate dumping seats in many markets similar to what was happening in the 1980s and 1990s. The consumer will benefit in the short run with $49 fares to FLL. Then it will get ugly. Someone will file Chapter 11. And all the people claiming Florida is the antidote to living in NYC, BOS, etc...will be running back once the next Hurricane Andrew hits.

you are going to be really disappointed in a couple of months then. AA/B6 partnership only just "passed' the DOJ review and the details of ff arrangement just finished recently. AA supposedly will announce what it's ff benefits with AS & B6 will look like in a few weeks. AS partnership was announced months before B6 and nothing obvious has happened yet. Most of the benefit of AA/B6 deal probably won't be seen until 2022. AA has said goodbye to 50 seaters out of NYC. Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

Ah there you go again presenting option as facts. Insane

AS+AA FF benefits were announced weeks ago.

I was thinking the same thing. The AA/AS partnership is well underway.

ASFlyer wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

you are going to be really disappointed in a couple of months then. AA/B6 partnership only just "passed' the DOJ review and the details of ff arrangement just finished recently. AA supposedly will announce what it's ff benefits with AS & B6 will look like in a few weeks. AS partnership was announced months before B6 and nothing obvious has happened yet. Most of the benefit of AA/B6 deal probably won't be seen until 2022. AA has said goodbye to 50 seaters out of NYC. Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

Ah there you go again presenting option as facts. Insane

AS+AA FF benefits were announced weeks ago.

I was thinking the same thing. The AA/AS partnership is well underway.

And how long did it take for that to be announced? And how long has it been since the JetBlue partnership got announced? It takes time for these deals to get implemented in detail. And we have a guy here who think it's not going forward because nothing has been announced in the under one month since the deal got approved.

tphuang wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

Ah there you go again presenting option as facts. Insane

AS+AA FF benefits were announced weeks ago.

I was thinking the same thing. The AA/AS partnership is well underway.

And how long did it take for that to be announced? And how long has it been since the JetBlue partnership got announced? It takes time for these deals to get implemented in detail. And we have a guy here who think it's not going forward because nothing has been announced in the under one month since the deal got approved.

To Be Exact:

AA/AS relationship announced -- Feb 13
Mileage Earning Announced - April 1
Reciprocal Elite Benefits Announced - Nov 20

AA/B6 announcement -- July 16

AA/B6 should have at least had the mileage earning announced by now.
I still think it is going forward but I think there are some disagreements about the scale and scope of the partnership that they are still working out.

usflyer msp wrote:

tphuang wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

I was thinking the same thing. The AA/AS partnership is well underway.

And how long did it take for that to be announced? And how long has it been since the JetBlue partnership got announced? It takes time for these deals to get implemented in detail. And we have a guy here who think it's not going forward because nothing has been announced in the under one month since the deal got approved.

To Be Exact:

AA/AS relationship announced -- Feb 13
Mileage Earning Announced - April 1
Reciprocal Elite Benefits Announced - Nov 20

AA/B6 announcement -- July 16

AA/B6 should have at least had the mileage earning announced by now.
I still think it is going forward but I think there are some disagreements about the scale and scope of the partnership that they are still working out.

I think the fact that AS is formally joining Oneworld may have something to do with the quick establishment of the partnership.

tphuang wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

you are going to be really disappointed in a couple of months then. AA/B6 partnership only just "passed' the DOJ review and the details of ff arrangement just finished recently. AA supposedly will announce what it's ff benefits with AS & B6 will look like in a few weeks. AS partnership was announced months before B6 and nothing obvious has happened yet. Most of the benefit of AA/B6 deal probably won't be seen until 2022. AA has said goodbye to 50 seaters out of NYC. Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

Ah there you go again presenting option as facts. Insane

AS+AA FF benefits were announced weeks ago.

AA specifically said that reciprocal upgrades with AS/B6 Will be announced in a few weeks.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... tnerships/

https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Tran ... rtnerships
"In the West Coast, where we've started an international hub in Seattle connecting to Alaska's domestic hub, we'll be able to offer more people more connectivity through Seattle and people in Seattle more access to the world. We'll do the same thing with JetBlue in New York and Boston, where we anticipate adding the first new American Airlines international flights out of New York in five or six years when we start Tel Aviv and Athens next year.

The other thing we're looking to do to fulfill a promise is make it so the loyal customers of one airline are recognized on the other airline, and that when flying on our partnerships, benefits are enhanced. We recently announced with Alaska the largest reciprocal upgrade proposition of its kind anywhere in the world. If you are an AAdvantage Elite Member, you can be upgraded on an entirely Alaska-operated flight and still have the same kind of status as if you were on an American-operated flight. The same thing is true for [Alaska's] Mileage Plan members. We'll roll out something similar with JetBlue. "

Where are the AS codeshares? Obviously, the JetBlue integration will be later since the deal got announced later.

AA closed its Envoy base (50 seaters) in NYC a couple of months ago.
viewtopic.php?t=1370337&start=1000

There has been no indication that AA/B6 partnership will no go forward except some AA supporters who are unnerved by the thought that JetBlue will take over a lot of those AA flying.

Where are your evidences?

I don't need to present evidence. I'm not claiming anything except that AS+AA already announced their benefits, which they did. Their failure to announce upgrade benefits does not equal their failure to announce benefits. You tend to be bad at inferring things and manipulating articles to suit you bias, so I understand the lapse there.

Regarding the rest, you fail to present any evidence, just inference from articles, as always. Closing a 50 seat jet base in New York City does not equal ending RJ flying from New York City.

You used to parade on and on and on about Alaska closing LAX, but that hasn't happened and it's network at LAX has grown significantly during the pandemic. So now onto presenting your next inference as fact I guess. Until you are proven wrong again. Then you can create your next lie.

AC4500 wrote:

HVNandrew wrote:

I'm a bit surprised they don't seem to be bringing back the LAS P2P operation they were flying pre-pandemic.

I'm not surprised by that at all. DL was hoping for higher-end traffic on their LAS P2P routes, which is obviously not possible now and for the foreseeable future.

With only minimal leisure travel to cater to, F9, NK, and WN would crush DL on all of those routes.

This is about AA adding flights to compete with B6

Why do you post about DL?

tphuang wrote:

Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

The deal is more meaningful for B6 than it is for AA.

Pre-covid AA wasn't that relevant in NYC, AA has admitted that numerous times.

Midwestindy wrote:

AA is adding AUS-MCO....although Sat only

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local ... 7220f1cb73

AUS-SJD rumoured too according to xJonNYC

Boof02671 wrote:

AC4500 wrote:

HVNandrew wrote:

I'm a bit surprised they don't seem to be bringing back the LAS P2P operation they were flying pre-pandemic.

I'm not surprised by that at all. DL was hoping for higher-end traffic on their LAS P2P routes, which is obviously not possible now and for the foreseeable future.

With only minimal leisure travel to cater to, F9, NK, and WN would crush DL on all of those routes.

This is about AA adding flights to compete with B6

Why do you post about DL?

Hello, welcome to airliners.net, you must be new here.

B6's rate of cash burn relative to revenue is higher than any of the other US airlines at the moment, and growing fast. B6 remains primarily an East Coast carrier, where traffic is muted outside of Northeast to Florida markets, where a number of carriers are now piling on capacity and entering markets they really shouldn't and this will be really bad in the long run for those that stick around. It is as ludicrous for AA to add one JFK-FLL as it is for B6 to add JFK-MIA. B6's EWR strategy is slightly more logical when it comes to transcons as the competition is essentially non existent. Perhaps DL remains the smartest one in that it is just standing by, watching two poorly run businesses try to outdo each other. As for AA's relevance in the NY market, it is the wish of a lot of misinformed here that AA would simply go away in NYC. American Airlines, has for sure, squandered the chance to make NY a much bigger market for itself long ago. It resisted Chapter 11 far too long, and for a time, its costs were too high to compete. DL and B6 grew and relegated AA to being a fourth place carrier in the world's biggest O&D market. However, dominating NY is not all it seemed to be, even before COVID19 and profits were elusive, even for Delta, which took almost a decade after pumping billions into JFK and LGA to turn a profit. AA's strategy in NY isn't great that's true, but it serves the markets where it can make money and in 2019, it turned JFK profitable with a consistent product for TATL and GRU/EZE/GIG. Terminal 8 is phenomenal JFK real estate compared to everything else there, even T5, which has some limitations. AA post COVID19 in NY will consolidate all of OW, except for JL, into T8, retain a dominant slice of the LHR market, and likely GRU, and modestly grow TATL with A321XLRs to some markets where business demand (not leisure) exists, and where it doesn't need to feed traffic onto those planes to sustain the routes.

usflyer msp wrote:

To Be Exact:

AA/AS relationship announced -- Feb 13
Mileage Earning Announced - April 1
Reciprocal Elite Benefits Announced - Nov 20

AA/B6 announcement -- July 16

AA/B6 should have at least had the mileage earning announced by now.
I still think it is going forward but I think there are some disagreements about the scale and scope of the partnership that they are still working out.

The big difference is that AA/AS had an existing partnership with mileage earning going back many years. AA/B6 deal came together very quickly. The details of the ff benefits and code sharing details were not agreed to until a month and half ago. And the deal didn't get approved by DOT until a month ago.

Midwestindy wrote:

tphuang wrote:

Without B6 partnership, AA is going to lose a lot of NYC flight and relevance to ff all around the country.

The deal is more meaningful for B6 than it is for AA.

Pre-covid AA wasn't that relevant in NYC, AA has admitted that numerous times.

That maybe so. But AA would not make this deal if it did not help them. Having B6 doing their NYC/Boston flying clearly helps them with ff outside of their hub cities. And it will help keep ff from moving to DL/UA in NYC. DL being much less profitable in NYC is a huge plus for AA.

MAH4546 wrote:

I don't need to present evidence. I'm not claiming anything except that AS+AA already announced their benefits, which they did. Their failure to announce upgrade benefits does not equal their failure to announce benefits. You tend to be bad at inferring things and manipulating articles to suit you bias, so I understand the lapse there.

I was actually thinking about network wise like code sharing? You are the one that brought up benefits. According to what I read on flyertalk a couple of weeks ago, they haven't seen additional code sharing.

Regarding the rest, you fail to present any evidence, just inference from articles, as always. Closing a 50 seat jet base in New York City does not equal ending RJ flying from New York City.

Vasu has said 50 seat flying is going away from NYC and they closed the base. How much more obvious can it be than that? I did not say all RJs are leaving in NYC. I said 50 seat flying. Read carefully. Do you want to take a look at how many of their non-hub JFK/LGA flights were on 50 seaters pre-COVID?

You used to parade on and on and on about Alaska closing LAX, but that hasn't happened and it's network at LAX has grown significantly during the pandemic. So now onto presenting your next inference as fact I guess. Until you are proven wrong again. Then you can create your next lie.

Show proof where I said Alaska is closing LAX. Please show proof.

Let's see the things I've said thus far that's JetBlue related in the past few months:
- Build up EWR - check
- Get more slots at LGA/JFK for increased flying - if this AA deal goes forward, then big check
- Get additional gates at LAX and moving focus city there from LGB - check
- RDU buildup - check
- BOS & MCO get put in the back burners - check
- Increased flying out of SFO - check

You want to point out where I actually lied? That is a very strong accusation.

Cointrin330 wrote:

B6's rate of cash burn relative to revenue is higher than any of the other US airlines at the moment, and growing fast.

That's not the case for Q3. Since we don't actually have numbers for Q4, maybe you shouldn't be making this kind of broad statement? Case in point, their guidance for Q3 was 7 to 9 million and it ended up being $6.1 million.

B6 remains primarily an East Coast carrier, where traffic is muted outside of Northeast to Florida markets, where a number of carriers are now piling on capacity and entering markets they really shouldn't and this will be really bad in the long run for those that stick around. It is as ludicrous for AA to add one JFK-FLL as it is for B6 to add JFK-MIA

You do realize that B6 had to make these moves, because demand is next to 0 out of NYC/BOS? JetBlue has been hurt by geography more than any other carrier thus far. If anything, this pandemic has shown that JetBlue needs to break out of northeast to florida.

B6's EWR strategy is slightly more logical when it comes to transcons as the competition is essentially non existent. Perhaps DL remains the smartest one in that it is just standing by, watching two poorly run businesses try to outdo each other. As for AA's relevance in the NY market, it is the wish of a lot of misinformed here that AA would simply go away in NYC. American Airlines, has for sure, squandered the chance to make NY a much bigger market for itself long ago. It resisted Chapter 11 far too long, and for a time, its costs were too high to compete. DL and B6 grew and relegated AA to being a fourth place carrier in the world's biggest O&D market. However, dominating NY is not all it seemed to be, even before COVID19 and profits were elusive, even for Delta, which took almost a decade after pumping billions into JFK and LGA to turn a profit. AA's strategy in NY isn't great that's true, but it serves the markets where it can make money and in 2019, it turned JFK profitable with a consistent product for TATL and GRU/EZE/GIG. Terminal 8 is phenomenal JFK real estate compared to everything else there, even T5, which has some limitations. AA post COVID19 in NY will consolidate all of OW, except for JL, into T8, retain a dominant slice of the LHR market, and likely GRU, and modestly grow TATL with A321XLRs to some markets where business demand (not leisure) exists, and where it doesn't need to feed traffic onto those planes to sustain the routes.

I don't know why you need to go through AA's history in NYC so often. The reality is this. AA is in a weak position in NYC, but it still has some very valuable assets. DL was becoming too dominant in NYC. It hurts AA network wide for DL to becoming that profitable in NYC. AA cannot overcome that problem by itself. By teaming up with B6, AA has a chance of keeping its own ff while also drawing those ff away from DL. Whether these customers end up with AA or B6 is probably not AA's biggest concern in NYC. When DL starts becoming profitable in NYC, it can make the level of investment to win other customers from AA in rest of the country. COVID-19 is a major reset in NYC aviation. An AA/B6 partnership will help both airlines against a common enemy.

My ongoing confusion as to whether AA serves SAN-JFK any more may be finally answered.

I discovered last night that AS's flight schedules now show that beginning April 4, they will operate a daily nonstop r/t in the market. Further, departure times are excellent as well as very reminiscent of the times that AA scheduled their flights on the route for about 60 years now:

SAN: 7:25am AS #392 Dly 739 Eff. 4/4/21
JFK: 3:55pm

JFK: 4:55pm AS #393 Dly 739 Eff. 4/4/21
SAN: 8:05pm

I think AS will represent OneWorld very well in the market while competing against both DL and B6, despite the differences in the First Class products..

bb

Ishrion wrote:

According to Cranky Flyer, American is launching FLL-BOS/LAX/JFK and DFW-LGB

https://twitter.com/crankyflier/status/ ... 9233739776

These currently aren't open for booking, but they'll likely become available over the weekend.

JetBlue just announced MIA-BOS/JFK/LAX/EWR yesterday and here we are with American's "response". Southwest added DAL-LGB last week.

Additionally, PHX-ANC is coming back.

Wouldn’t it be something if AA sent a 32T FLL - LAX

ahj2000 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

AA is adding AUS-MCO....although Sat only

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local ... 7220f1cb73

AUS-SJD rumoured too according to xJonNYC

AUSSJD already launched.

I've reported something on a couple of other threads -- including the AA Network Thread -- that might be of interest here as well.

I discovered last night on AS.com that starting 4/4/21 they will be starting SAN-JFK, a route that AA has served uninterrupted for about 60 years, until a year or so ago when their flying became very on-and-off. I'm sure we have seen the final flights on the route by AA, after April anyway.

I don't know how the relationship of the 2 cx has developed over the last few months but this move by AAG in this market is undoubtedly not just a coincidence.

bb

A few facts that seem to be overlooked:

-AA is down to 20 or so flights at JFK
-AA has no flights to Florida from any NYC airport beyond MIA and a single MCO flight
-This was announced the day after B6 entered MIA

there are no coincidences folks. This is a tit for tat...which is bizarre given their codeshare was just approved

Midwestindy wrote:

But wait there is more.....AA is adding AUS-MCO?????

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local ... 7220f1cb73

Damn. I would've loved that when I lived in AUS and flew out to MCO connecting with DL in ATL last year both ways.

Interesting additions to FLL but I think all of these are technically resumptions. FLL was almost (or potentially, I can't remember) a Focus City for AA in the Early 2000s. As already mentioned FLL-LAX was flown on 757s.

Believe it or not, AA also briefly did a seasonal EWR-FLL on a S80 in 1999. I'm not sure why but it did happen.

jfklganyc wrote:

A few facts that seem to be overlooked:

-AA is down to 20 or so flights at JFK
-AA has no flights to Florida from any NYC airport beyond MIA and a single MCO flight
-This was announced the day after B6 entered MIA

there are no coincidences folks. This is a tit for tat...which is bizarre given their codeshare was just approved

I do recall flying AA in April 2003 on JFK-MCO-JFK on 757s during Spring Break and also during SARS for what it's worth. Also flew AA in August 2007 on LGA-MCO-LGA also on 757s. Both planes were packed. AA's service to Florida from the NYC-Area was underrated IMHO as it was nice to have 757s on those routes. I guess I lucked out.

USAirALB wrote:

I’m also curious to see if IAD-LAX resumes.

it appears it will not. this is a long time AA route, sad to see it go but it makes sense in the current climate. plus DCA still gives them access

CMH and MSY appear to be cut from LAX as well. the rest of AA's fairly robust domestic offerings at LAX stay

The flights are now on sale. All begin April 2, 2021.

- Boston to FLL 2x daily 737-800

- Los Angeles to FLL 2x daily A321neo

- New York JFK to FLL 2x daily 737-800

DFW-LGB also begins April 2.

AA's Fairbanks to DFW and ORD flights will now launch in 2021.

These weren't on sale earlier but they're now scheduled.

Ishrion wrote:

The flights are now on sale. All begin April 2, 2021.

- Boston to FLL 2x daily 737-800

- Los Angeles to FLL 2x daily A321neo

- New York JFK to FLL 2x daily 737-800

DFW-LGB also begins April 2.

the schedules are very competitive. I think these have a decent shot

very nice to see LAX offer both a redeye and morning departure. AA goes head to head with AS (morning), DL/NK (redeye), and B6 (multiple daily) with their frequency. let's see if it sticks.

Ishrion wrote:

The flights are now on sale. All begin April 2, 2021.

- Boston to FLL 2x daily 737-800

- Los Angeles to FLL 2x daily A321neo

- New York JFK to FLL 2x daily 737-800

DFW-LGB also begins April 2.

The FLL flights will be starting shortly after cruises from Fort Lauderdale are scheduled to begin.

N649DL wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

But wait there is more.....AA is adding AUS-MCO?????

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local ... 7220f1cb73

Damn. I would've loved that when I lived in AUS and flew out to MCO connecting with DL in ATL last year both ways.

This is being a little overhyped. AA will operate a grand total of five Austin-Orlando trips on regional jets. Saturdays between March 6 and April 3 for spring break.

N649DL wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

But wait there is more.....AA is adding AUS-MCO?????

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local ... 7220f1cb73

Damn. I would've loved that when I lived in AUS and flew out to MCO connecting with DL in ATL last year both ways.

Interesting additions to FLL but I think all of these are technically resumptions. FLL was almost (or potentially, I can't remember) a Focus City for AA in the Early 2000s. As already mentioned FLL-LAX was flown on 757s.

Believe it or not, AA also briefly did a seasonal EWR-FLL on a S80 in 1999. I'm not sure why but it did happen.

jfklganyc wrote:

A few facts that seem to be overlooked:

-AA is down to 20 or so flights at JFK
-AA has no flights to Florida from any NYC airport beyond MIA and a single MCO flight
-This was announced the day after B6 entered MIA

there are no coincidences folks. This is a tit for tat...which is bizarre given their codeshare was just approved

I do recall flying AA in April 2003 on JFK-MCO-JFK on 757s during Spring Break and also during SARS for what it's worth. Also flew AA in August 2007 on LGA-MCO-LGA also on 757s. Both planes were packed. AA's service to Florida from the NYC-Area was underrated IMHO as it was nice to have 757s on those routes. I guess I lucked out.

That was post TWA. 5 daily 757s to JFK, 3 to LGA

LGA had a special checkin counter for Florida Departures as they served MCO JAX on Eagle TPA FLL and MIA.

The good old days!

tphuang wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

B6's rate of cash burn relative to revenue is higher than any of the other US airlines at the moment, and growing fast.

That's not the case for Q3. Since we don't actually have numbers for Q4, maybe you shouldn't be making this kind of broad statement? Case in point, their guidance for Q3 was 7 to 9 million and it ended up being $6.1 million.

B6 remains primarily an East Coast carrier, where traffic is muted outside of Northeast to Florida markets, where a number of carriers are now piling on capacity and entering markets they really shouldn't and this will be really bad in the long run for those that stick around. It is as ludicrous for AA to add one JFK-FLL as it is for B6 to add JFK-MIA

You do realize that B6 had to make these moves, because demand is next to 0 out of NYC/BOS? JetBlue has been hurt by geography more than any other carrier thus far. If anything, this pandemic has shown that JetBlue needs to break out of northeast to florida.

B6's EWR strategy is slightly more logical when it comes to transcons as the competition is essentially non existent. Perhaps DL remains the smartest one in that it is just standing by, watching two poorly run businesses try to outdo each other. As for AA's relevance in the NY market, it is the wish of a lot of misinformed here that AA would simply go away in NYC. American Airlines, has for sure, squandered the chance to make NY a much bigger market for itself long ago. It resisted Chapter 11 far too long, and for a time, its costs were too high to compete. DL and B6 grew and relegated AA to being a fourth place carrier in the world's biggest O&D market. However, dominating NY is not all it seemed to be, even before COVID19 and profits were elusive, even for Delta, which took almost a decade after pumping billions into JFK and LGA to turn a profit. AA's strategy in NY isn't great that's true, but it serves the markets where it can make money and in 2019, it turned JFK profitable with a consistent product for TATL and GRU/EZE/GIG. Terminal 8 is phenomenal JFK real estate compared to everything else there, even T5, which has some limitations. AA post COVID19 in NY will consolidate all of OW, except for JL, into T8, retain a dominant slice of the LHR market, and likely GRU, and modestly grow TATL with A321XLRs to some markets where business demand (not leisure) exists, and where it doesn't need to feed traffic onto those planes to sustain the routes.

I don't know why you need to go through AA's history in NYC so often. The reality is this. AA is in a weak position in NYC, but it still has some very valuable assets. DL was becoming too dominant in NYC. It hurts AA network wide for DL to becoming that profitable in NYC. AA cannot overcome that problem by itself. By teaming up with B6, AA has a chance of keeping its own ff while also drawing those ff away from DL. Whether these customers end up with AA or B6 is probably not AA's biggest concern in NYC. When DL starts becoming profitable in NYC, it can make the level of investment to win other customers from AA in rest of the country. COVID-19 is a major reset in NYC aviation. An AA/B6 partnership will help both airlines against a common enemy.

DL turned NYC profitable a few years ago, but the investment there began in earnest in 2007 once it exited bankruptcy. I'm allowed to provide the context for AA's situation in NYC just as much as you are to press your points, about B6, however inaccurate or over-inflated they may be. COVID19 is a major re-set in the entire aviation industry, not just NY. At B6's rate of cash burn relative to what it is spending, it is burning its way into Chapter 11 at a very fast clip. One of the US3 will probably end up in a similar position. Now, am bored with you. Back to sensible, intelligent exchanges on this forum.

miaami wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

Nice to see FLL-LAX back. IIRC it might have been flown twice daily with 752s at one point.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

AA actually flew FLL-CCS for about a year or so, just as the political situation was making things more difficult. I believe they may have briefly flown FLL-SJO also at one point.

SJO was indeed operated at one point.

FLL-LAX was up to 4X daily at one time, all 757s

I think they are going to go 2 or 3 daily32T to be competitive.

tphuang wrote:

The big difference is that AA/AS had an existing partnership with mileage earning going back many years. AA/B6 deal came together very quickly. The details of the ff benefits and code sharing details were not agreed to until a month and half ago. And the deal didn't get approved by DOT until a month ago.

Correction:

AA and B6 had a FFP corporation in earning and redemption as well as codeshare back in the days when B6 was still growing in NYC. Can't remember when exactly, but I knew it was before AA/US merger and possible before 2010.

Jo8338 wrote:

miaami wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

Nice to see FLL-LAX back. IIRC it might have been flown twice daily with 752s at one point.

SJO was indeed operated at one point.

FLL-LAX was up to 4X daily at one time, all 757s

I think they are going to go 2 or 3 daily32T to be competitive.

A321T on a predominantly LCC route like FLL-LAX? Why would AA put Flagship First on what’s going to be a very low yielding route due to the all the excess capacity being dumped in the market?

Mint is killing AA on south Florida to -LAX. Most O&D residents want FLL over MIA. The premium market is growing and those customers live north of MIA.
MIA is all connecting traffic.
AA is bottom fishing and will be price matching NK on this route which is a mistake.

None of the adds are meant with South Florida business travelers in mind rather a resumption of cruise line contracts.

wenders825 wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

I’m also curious to see if IAD-LAX resumes.

it appears it will not. this is a long time AA route, sad to see it go but it makes sense in the current climate. plus DCA still gives them access

CMH and MSY appear to be cut from LAX as well. the rest of AA's fairly robust domestic offerings at LAX stay

Im interested to see what happens with AA & LAX, yes CMH/MSY/IAD are removed after March, in addition to whatever they removed early in the pandemic from LAX. Although, some routes are scheduled to get frequency bumps in April; ATL, AUS, & BOS for example.

It will be interesting to see what is around this summer.

Jo8338 wrote:

miaami wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

Nice to see FLL-LAX back. IIRC it might have been flown twice daily with 752s at one point.

SJO was indeed operated at one point.

FLL-LAX was up to 4X daily at one time, all 757s

I think they are going to go 2 or 3 daily32T to be competitive.

They could use the T now as only JFK-SFO are operating. Once the JFK-LAX demand comes back once it dies the Ts will be back in use and one has now finally been written off, so they won’t have the flexibility to use them anywhere else.

Jo8338 wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

According to Cranky Flyer, American is launching FLL-BOS/LAX/JFK and DFW-LGB

https://twitter.com/crankyflier/status/ ... 9233739776

These currently aren't open for booking, but they'll likely become available over the weekend.

JetBlue just announced MIA-BOS/JFK/LAX/EWR yesterday and here we are with American's "response". Southwest added DAL-LGB last week.

Additionally, PHX-ANC is coming back.

Wouldn’t it be something if AA sent a 32T FLL - LAX

Why waste a premium heavy plane on a thin, low yield route?