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drdisque
Posts: 1490
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:29 pm

I doubt many of the people who booked knew about the frequent fuel stops.

CLT probably had more feed then than it does today. Although now it will benefit from the much larger AA network and awareness as an airline that goes to Hawaii. US's presence to Hawaii almost entirely relied on PHX local and US loyals in the southwest who were used to connecting though PHX. AA can obviously get you to Hawaii a lot of different ways and is a much bigger player in Hawaii.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5250
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:10 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Adding AAs terrible product doesn't seem at all competative with JetBlue for mint or coach passengers. This is to compliment not compete. If they were trying to compete they would add the the A321T which they are not doing. They have plenty of The at the moment. They are not trying to compete. This is classic a.net reading way too much into things. This isn't a thing with feelings and emotions it's a business


No dude. You do not seem to understand how antitrust laws work in this country. This is not to compliment. That is illegal. AA would be subject to massive fines if it were to “compliment.” Those fines would be in the tens of millions of dollars. This has nothing to do with feelings and emotions. It is a business. And a business needs to compete when another business decides to become more aggressively competitive. That’s what is going on here. The notion that AA is looking to compliment is absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the body basic of laws.

You are also putting to much weight on product. Alaska and Spirit fly FLLLAX and do just fine without PTVs and free “premium snacks.”


Absolutely wrong. AA can absolutely expect more demand in FLL because of its JetBlue partnership coming up and add seats. There is Zero illegal about that. They also can add their own flights they are not working with JetBlue on scheduling,, timing or something like that. Your 100% wrong here
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:19 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Adding AAs terrible product doesn't seem at all competative with JetBlue for mint or coach passengers. This is to compliment not compete. If they were trying to compete they would add the the A321T which they are not doing. They have plenty of The at the moment. They are not trying to compete. This is classic a.net reading way too much into things. This isn't a thing with feelings and emotions it's a business


No dude. You do not seem to understand how antitrust laws work in this country. This is not to compliment. That is illegal. AA would be subject to massive fines if it were to “compliment.” Those fines would be in the tens of millions of dollars. This has nothing to do with feelings and emotions. It is a business. And a business needs to compete when another business decides to become more aggressively competitive. That’s what is going on here. The notion that AA is looking to compliment is absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the body basic of laws.

You are also putting to much weight on product. Alaska and Spirit fly FLLLAX and do just fine without PTVs and free “premium snacks.”


By which measure does complement get assessed? Yes, all three alliance carriers are free to compete by adding flights between city-pairs, and they may purport not to complement one another, but in aggregate they are capacity by which they can each adjust timings and equipment based on public data, whereby each alliance member becomes a tag team against whatever other carrier augments something closest to that individual alliance member's schedule. Shrewd and potentially circumvential IMO.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:20 pm

drdisque wrote:
I doubt many of the people who booked knew about the frequent fuel stops.

CLT probably had more feed then than it does today. Although now it will benefit from the much larger AA network and awareness as an airline that goes to Hawaii. US's presence to Hawaii almost entirely relied on PHX local and US loyals in the southwest who were used to connecting though PHX. AA can obviously get you to Hawaii a lot of different ways and is a much bigger player in Hawaii.


I doubt the inconvenience on the passengers during the fuel stop would cause the route to be uneconomical but it would add significant costs to the route. Additional crew maybe required as well on a plane that barely seats 200.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:38 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Adding AAs terrible product doesn't seem at all competative with JetBlue for mint or coach passengers. This is to compliment not compete. If they were trying to compete they would add the the A321T which they are not doing. They have plenty of The at the moment. They are not trying to compete. This is classic a.net reading way too much into things. This isn't a thing with feelings and emotions it's a business


No dude. You do not seem to understand how antitrust laws work in this country. This is not to compliment. That is illegal. AA would be subject to massive fines if it were to “compliment.” Those fines would be in the tens of millions of dollars. This has nothing to do with feelings and emotions. It is a business. And a business needs to compete when another business decides to become more aggressively competitive. That’s what is going on here. The notion that AA is looking to compliment is absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the body basic of laws.

You are also putting to much weight on product. Alaska and Spirit fly FLLLAX and do just fine without PTVs and free “premium snacks.”


By which measure does complement get assessed? Yes, all three alliance carriers are free to compete by adding flights between city-pairs, and they may purport not to complement one another, but in aggregate they are capacity by which they can each adjust timings and equipment based on public data, whereby each alliance member becomes a tag team against whatever other carrier augments something closest to that individual alliance member's schedule. Shrewd and potentially circumvential IMO.



It appears AS FLL-LAX is now once again year-round. I wasn't sure in their flurry of announcement RE: west coast-Florida flying if this flight was just seasonal or not.

So all three partners are flying FLL-LAX. I get the premise of "complimentary" flights but I just don't think that's what's going on here. All 3 carriers are still competing to get passengers, particularly in this environment on their own metal.

If some partnership benefit comes from it long-term, that's great for all 3 provided they are still flying a few years down the road, but I do not think that's what is at play here.

If these airlines were colluding as MAH indicated above I believe DOJ would have a thing or two to say about it and heavy fines would be coming.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26683
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:46 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Adding AAs terrible product doesn't seem at all competative with JetBlue for mint or coach passengers. This is to compliment not compete. If they were trying to compete they would add the the A321T which they are not doing. They have plenty of The at the moment. They are not trying to compete. This is classic a.net reading way too much into things. This isn't a thing with feelings and emotions it's a business


No dude. You do not seem to understand how antitrust laws work in this country. This is not to compliment. That is illegal. AA would be subject to massive fines if it were to “compliment.” Those fines would be in the tens of millions of dollars. This has nothing to do with feelings and emotions. It is a business. And a business needs to compete when another business decides to become more aggressively competitive. That’s what is going on here. The notion that AA is looking to compliment is absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the body basic of laws.

You are also putting to much weight on product. Alaska and Spirit fly FLLLAX and do just fine without PTVs and free “premium snacks.”


Absolutely wrong. AA can absolutely expect more demand in FLL because of its JetBlue partnership coming up and add seats. There is Zero illegal about that. They also can add their own flights they are not working with JetBlue on scheduling,, timing or something like that. Your 100% wrong here


I’m not but there’s no sense in arguing this further. You are are attempting to argue they are illegally colluding. That’s insane but if you believe that, it is what it is.

Also, FYI, the JetBlue partnership is only limited to codesharing/feed in the Northeast and will not involve any codesharing at FLL (or LAX).
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:47 pm

Also if their is collusion going on, B6 must be stunned that AA would jump back on FLL-PAP.

JetBlue's only competition on the route has been Spirit for the last few years and wealthier Haitian-Americans I know in Broward and Palm Beach prefer not to fly NK. AF from MIA is the top choice, but AA from FLL was very competitive always with this subset until the route was dropped a few years ago at a time when AA seemed to be abandoning all non-hub flying and scaling down JFK as well.

AA's return to that route I am sure is not good for B6 and is not about any sort of "complimentary" service.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:33 pm

According to the Charlotte Business Journal, American told them CLT-HNL will run 2x weekly from May 6 through June 2, however, AA continues to display 6x weekly.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/n ... route.html
 
FCOTSTW
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:55 pm

BOS HNL is 5,080 miles, JFK HNL 4,970, CLT HNL 4,670. Does it make it the third longest domestic flight?
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:14 pm

I wonder if AA would consider a return to FLL-KIN. BW seems to have dropped the route post COVID so there may be room.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:24 pm

Perhaps they are all competing against each other. And also, perhaps not. The low-demand pandemic environment obscures true intentions. American jumping in on any JetBlue route where there is at least one other carrier does not make a solid argument that the intention is to compete against JetBlue. Perhaps demand is such that JetBlue would have expanded instead. I'm just a die-hard skeptic on the AA-B6 / AA-AS "alliances'" true affect on competition during a pandemic recovery period, a backdrop in which the DOT and DOJ may blindly feel is favorable for such coziness.
 
B6FLL954
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 6:18 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:29 pm

As MAH4546 said earlier, the AA/B6 partnership is focused on the NE and not aimed as some type of broad alliance strategy. The carriers will continue to compete for traffic and I see this as a huge benefit for customers looking for more options and competitive fares.

I'm somewhat skeptical on the JFK and BOS adds in FLL, hope they last but will be tough with DL, NK, UA (LGA) and B6. I really like the resumption of LAX service on AA and think these adds will do very well in the long run, LAX is actually somewhat underserved from Ft. Lauderdale.

I doubt B6 or NK will be too worried about AA's Haiti resumption, both carriers are quite popular on the route. Guess we'll see how long this one lasts.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3759
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:35 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
BOS HNL is 5,080 miles, JFK HNL 4,970, CLT HNL 4,670. Does it make it the third longest domestic flight?



EWR-HNL and the newly announced MCO-HNL beat CLT-HNL, so it falls in at #5.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14352
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:39 pm

jfk777 wrote:
When the world returns to normal AA should go to Tokyo from Charlotte, Tokyo only seems to work for AA from DFW & LAX.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Indianapolis, IN and Columbus, OH have (significantly) more O&D to Tokyo than Charlotte; to give you an idea of what AA would be working with.

Why on earth would they launch such a flight, which BTW would pass right over ORD, which they just dropped?
What connection would CLT (a market with zilch demand to TYO) make viable, that can't efficiently go through the combination of JFK, BOS, ORD, DFW today?



FCOTSTW wrote:
BOS HNL is 5,080 miles, JFK HNL 4,970, CLT HNL 4,670. Does it make it the third longest domestic flight?

The upcoming HNL-MCO will be longer than CLT-HNL.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5250
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:44 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

No dude. You do not seem to understand how antitrust laws work in this country. This is not to compliment. That is illegal. AA would be subject to massive fines if it were to “compliment.” Those fines would be in the tens of millions of dollars. This has nothing to do with feelings and emotions. It is a business. And a business needs to compete when another business decides to become more aggressively competitive. That’s what is going on here. The notion that AA is looking to compliment is absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the body basic of laws.

You are also putting to much weight on product. Alaska and Spirit fly FLLLAX and do just fine without PTVs and free “premium snacks.”


Absolutely wrong. AA can absolutely expect more demand in FLL because of its JetBlue partnership coming up and add seats. There is Zero illegal about that. They also can add their own flights they are not working with JetBlue on scheduling,, timing or something like that. Your 100% wrong here


I’m not but there’s no sense in arguing this further. You are are attempting to argue they are illegally colluding. That’s insane but if you believe that, it is what it is.

Also, FYI, the JetBlue partnership is only limited to codesharing/feed in the Northeast and will not involve any codesharing at FLL (or LAX).


No colluding going on. Nothing is illegal for adding seats because you expect extra demand out of a city now. They are not talking to each other in any way over these new routes or reselling each other's flights. Your are hell bent on airlines all fighting each other and rivalries like you always are. :D Your adding way too much into this. It won't matter anyway with AAs terrible product they might not even last long enough to argue.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:51 pm

Understand about the NE focus, but my opinion is despite that. In fact, because it is limited in the NE (where most of JetBlue is) and language in the agreement prohibits JetBlue-cooperation with American's legacy competition, I can't see how American will ever grow on its own in that area in any meaningful way in fear that JetBlue would be lost to one of those competitors, thus pseudo-merger becomes more apparent IMO.
 
hbernal1
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:51 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:25 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Understand about the NE focus, but my opinion is despite that. In fact, because it is limited in the NE (where most of JetBlue is) and language in the agreement prohibits JetBlue-cooperation with American's legacy competition, I can't see how American will ever grow on its own in that area in any meaningful way in fear that JetBlue would be lost to one of those competitors, thus pseudo-merger becomes more apparent IMO.

ANet's Law: As an online discussion about routes and/or competing airlines grows larger, the probability of a merger being discussed approaches 1.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26683
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:28 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

Absolutely wrong. AA can absolutely expect more demand in FLL because of its JetBlue partnership coming up and add seats. There is Zero illegal about that. They also can add their own flights they are not working with JetBlue on scheduling,, timing or something like that. Your 100% wrong here


I’m not but there’s no sense in arguing this further. You are are attempting to argue they are illegally colluding. That’s insane but if you believe that, it is what it is.

Also, FYI, the JetBlue partnership is only limited to codesharing/feed in the Northeast and will not involve any codesharing at FLL (or LAX).


No colluding going on. Nothing is illegal for adding seats because you expect extra demand out of a city now. They are not talking to each other in any way over these new routes or reselling each other's flights. Your are hell bent on airlines all fighting each other and rivalries like you always are. :D Your adding way too much into this. It won't matter anyway with AAs terrible product they might not even last long enough to argue.


AA's product is literally inferior to everybody in the domestic market, even Spirit, and they've been able to compete.

I'm not adding anything. You are claming this is some sort of collusion with jetBlue and something meant to further the partnership. It's not.

It is retaliation for jetBlue entering MIA. That's it.
 
dfw88
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:14 am

MAH4546 wrote:
AA's product is literally inferior to everybody in the domestic market, even Spirit, and they've been able to compete.


I don't know why this is such a popular point, but it's just simply not true. You could argue their product is worse than DL and UA, which I would also disagree with, the three of them are basically the same, but there is no objective universe in which AA offers a worse product than Spirit.
 
dfw88
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:18 am

TYWoolman wrote:
Understand about the NE focus, but my opinion is despite that. In fact, because it is limited in the NE (where most of JetBlue is) and language in the agreement prohibits JetBlue-cooperation with American's legacy competition, I can't see how American will ever grow on its own in that area in any meaningful way in fear that JetBlue would be lost to one of those competitors, thus pseudo-merger becomes more apparent IMO.


You've been beating this drum ever since the partnership was announced. AA and B6 are not currently involved in any sort of "pseudo" or "de facto" merger. Repeating it doesn't make it true. You are wrong. Period. End of story.

In the future, could they flirt with a merger? Sure, but that would be incredibly different and barely related to what they have going on today.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26683
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:27 am

dfw88 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
AA's product is literally inferior to everybody in the domestic market, even Spirit, and they've been able to compete.


I don't know why this is such a popular point, but it's just simply not true. You could argue their product is worse than DL and UA, which I would also disagree with, the three of them are basically the same, but there is no objective universe in which AA offers a worse product than Spirit.


Of course there is. AA has equal or worse seat pitch on its newest planes, and is far less likely to be on time. Spirit runs like a well oiled machine.

American is even on the record as realizing they have a serious revenue problem.
 
ABEguy
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:24 am

MAH4546 wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
AA's product is literally inferior to everybody in the domestic market, even Spirit, and they've been able to compete.


I don't know why this is such a popular point, but it's just simply not true. You could argue their product is worse than DL and UA, which I would also disagree with, the three of them are basically the same, but there is no objective universe in which AA offers a worse product than Spirit.


Of course there is. AA has equal or worse seat pitch on its newest planes, and is far less likely to be on time. Spirit runs like a well oiled machine.

American is even on the record as realizing they have a serious revenue problem.


Do you often find yourself struggling with numbers? Spirit main cabin seat pitch= 28". American main cabin seat pitch= 30" (yes in the MAX/OASIS). 28<30. I'm sure both have their own version of "main cabin extra", but the smallest seat you'll find is on Spirit. Anyone that continues to argue this point is just suffering from AADS. Now as for onetime. Yes, you're talking about 2019 numbers of course. Anything come to a head over at AA that year? I'll help you out. Mechanics' contract negotiations followed by deliberate work action that concluded with a court order against the union. Of course you already knew that, just willful ignorance is what I'm seeing here.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:44 am

dfw88 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
AA's product is literally inferior to everybody in the domestic market, even Spirit, and they've been able to compete.


I don't know why this is such a popular point, but it's just simply not true. You could argue their product is worse than DL and UA, which I would also disagree with, the three of them are basically the same, but there is no objective universe in which AA offers a worse product than Spirit.


How on earth can you say that AA's product comes even close to DL? Why don't you compare the interiors on DL's new planes to the trash AA is throwing out there? What would you fly on? An A220 with PTVs, normal pitch, and good service - or whatever it is AA offers on their Oasis torture chambers? I mean it's not even close.

It seems to me that AA's management just doesn't know what they want. On one hand they invest in Flagship lounges and on the other they degrade the domestic product to the point that it really is worse than NK. How AA's management is still employed is one of the world's great mysteries.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26683
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:07 am

ABEguy wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
dfw88 wrote:

I don't know why this is such a popular point, but it's just simply not true. You could argue their product is worse than DL and UA, which I would also disagree with, the three of them are basically the same, but there is no objective universe in which AA offers a worse product than Spirit.


Of course there is. AA has equal or worse seat pitch on its newest planes, and is far less likely to be on time. Spirit runs like a well oiled machine.

American is even on the record as realizing they have a serious revenue problem.


Do you often find yourself struggling with numbers? Spirit main cabin seat pitch= 28". American main cabin seat pitch= 30" (yes in the MAX/OASIS). 28<30. I'm sure both have their own version of "main cabin extra", but the smallest seat you'll find is on Spirit. Anyone that continues to argue this point is just suffering from AADS. Now as for onetime. Yes, you're talking about 2019 numbers of course. Anything come to a head over at AA that year? I'll help you out. Mechanics' contract negotiations followed by deliberate work action that concluded with a court order against the union. Of course you already knew that, just willful ignorance is what I'm seeing here.


I don't struggle at all with numbers, I'm really good with them. I believed both were around 29". Thanks for correcting me.

Doesn't change anything at the end of the day. Spirit still has a far superior domestic product all around, and a far more reliable and efficient operation and your far more likely to have a pleasant and friendly crew.

American is bottom of the basement with regards to U.S. carriers with product and reliability. It didn't used to be that way, but Parker brought it down to new lows and unfortunately, for some odd reason, he's still there and ruining the airline.
Last edited by MAH4546 on Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Philly65
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:10 am

Interesting lets get the dartboard ready.
 
User avatar
September11
Posts: 3687
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Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:03 am

MIA-HNL could be next
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5250
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:21 am

September11 wrote:
MIA-HNL could be next


LOL if that gets added ill be really worried about AAs future.
 
Toinou
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:46 am

Who knows, maybe some people of Hawaii may want a volcano free beach and may be ready to fly ten hours for that. Wait...
 
runway23
Posts: 2428
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: American Airlines Adds CLT-HNL

Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:26 am

CALMSP wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
BOS HNL is 5,080 miles, JFK HNL 4,970, CLT HNL 4,670. Does it make it the third longest domestic flight?



EWR-HNL and the newly announced MCO-HNL beat CLT-HNL, so it falls in at #5.


Also missing IAD-HNL which is longer.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:05 am

hbernal1 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Understand about the NE focus, but my opinion is despite that. In fact, because it is limited in the NE (where most of JetBlue is) and language in the agreement prohibits JetBlue-cooperation with American's legacy competition, I can't see how American will ever grow on its own in that area in any meaningful way in fear that JetBlue would be lost to one of those competitors, thus pseudo-merger becomes more apparent IMO.

ANet's Law: As an online discussion about routes and/or competing airlines grows larger, the probability of a merger being discussed approaches 1.


Very true, indeed. You are well learned. But pseudo/ de facto merger was coined by Delta regarding the partnership several months ago. I was just reiterating the point.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:38 am

dfw88 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Understand about the NE focus, but my opinion is despite that. In fact, because it is limited in the NE (where most of JetBlue is) and language in the agreement prohibits JetBlue-cooperation with American's legacy competition, I can't see how American will ever grow on its own in that area in any meaningful way in fear that JetBlue would be lost to one of those competitors, thus pseudo-merger becomes more apparent IMO.


You've been beating this drum ever since the partnership was announced. AA and B6 are not currently involved in any sort of "pseudo" or "de facto" merger. Repeating it doesn't make it true. You are wrong. Period. End of story.

In the future, could they flirt with a merger? Sure, but that would be incredibly different and barely related to what they have going on today.


An opinion cannot be wrong. But it can be disagreed with. I don't disagree with you but my interpretation is definately not fantasy.. The stipulations of the partnership will force complementary services rather than competing services within the N.E. AA expansion in FLL doesn't change that.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:23 pm

9w748capt wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
AA's product is literally inferior to everybody in the domestic market, even Spirit, and they've been able to compete.


I don't know why this is such a popular point, but it's just simply not true. You could argue their product is worse than DL and UA, which I would also disagree with, the three of them are basically the same, but there is no objective universe in which AA offers a worse product than Spirit.


How on earth can you say that AA's product comes even close to DL? Why don't you compare the interiors on DL's new planes to the trash AA is throwing out there? What would you fly on? An A220 with PTVs, normal pitch, and good service - or whatever it is AA offers on their Oasis torture chambers? I mean it's not even close.

It seems to me that AA's management just doesn't know what they want. On one hand they invest in Flagship lounges and on the other they degrade the domestic product to the point that it really is worse than NK. How AA's management is still employed is one of the world's great mysteries.


A huge exaggeration here. Yes, Delta's cabins look and feel like they're the nicest of the US3. I've found AA's to be just about on par with UA's domestic cabins and they're just fine, but they're not NK that's for sure. If you don't like AA or their management, just don't fly them.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6725
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:39 pm

Aside from PTV, there isn't that much difference between AA and DL's hard product. You are more likely to find bigger differences between the aircraft they operate. People complain about the new FC seat on AA, but it actually has more pitch than DL's FC seat.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:01 pm

When I have flown AA I haven't minded it BUT I must again restate as I have here a few times on various threads the last few years, anecdotal evidence in the Miami area that I have seen tells me dissatisfaction with AA's product is pretty extensive. I know a number of people who live south of MIA that drive to FLL to fly B6 or WN. Now they don't have to. I initially thought it was about fares and saving money (though the extra 25 miles to FLL increases your own gas costs, right?) but discovered in time it was more about avoiding AA. If jetBlue offered a nonstop from FLL to the destination they needed to fly to, the inconvenience of the drive north was less of a burden than flying AA for them.

It all might be unfair. People who are not working in the industry or junkies like us develop prejudices and biases easily. Stereotypes are hard to shake. Spirit for example had to work super hard to shake the stigma they've had. Whether MAH is right or wrong in your opinion, down here in the Miami area that view of AA has taken hold. Again it might be unfair, but it is at least based on my experience fairly widespread down here. I cannot speak for other parts of the country, but in south Florida it exists.
 
dfw88
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:11 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
An opinion cannot be wrong. But it can be disagreed with. I don't disagree with you but my interpretation is definately not fantasy.. The stipulations of the partnership will force complementary services rather than competing services within the N.E. AA expansion in FLL doesn't change that.


An opinion can absolutely be wrong when one forms an opinion in the face of competing facts. If I tell you that in my opinion the earth is flat, then my opinion is wrong, because that's the sort of factual thing about which no one has any business forming an opinion. Your opinion is that AA and B6 are engaged in a pseudo-merger which is factually incorrect. They are not coordinating schedules or routes (as this weekend clearly showed), sharing revenue, or doing anything else that would be considered either collusion or a merger. The facts, as we currently understand them, point to a simple codeshare with some elite benefits in certain markets of the country. The facts, in other words, prove your opinion wrong.

That is absolutely not to say that the situation may not change in the future. If your opinion is that one day they will merge in some form or fashion then fine, I have no disagreement with that. But that's now how I've understood your comments.
 
ABEguy
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:24 pm

9w748capt wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
AA's product is literally inferior to everybody in the domestic market, even Spirit, and they've been able to compete.


I don't know why this is such a popular point, but it's just simply not true. You could argue their product is worse than DL and UA, which I would also disagree with, the three of them are basically the same, but there is no objective universe in which AA offers a worse product than Spirit.


How on earth can you say that AA's product comes even close to DL? Why don't you compare the interiors on DL's new planes to the trash AA is throwing out there? What would you fly on? An A220 with PTVs, normal pitch, and good service - or whatever it is AA offers on their Oasis torture chambers? I mean it's not even close.

It seems to me that AA's management just doesn't know what they want. On one hand they invest in Flagship lounges and on the other they degrade the domestic product to the point that it really is worse than NK. How AA's management is still employed is one of the world's great mysteries.


Oasis torture chamber? Dude, oasis a321 seats 2 passengers LESS than a delta a321 (190 vs 192). AAs a320 seats 7 LESS than deltas a320 (150 vs 157). Deltas A220 that you seem to be so impressed by has 30-32” pitch in the main cabin, just like Oasis. There’s definitely criticism about AA that’s well deserved, but you’re talking non sense.
 
arielwar
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:59 pm

Re: American Airlines at JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:11 pm

Does anybody know if the expansion construction has started in T8?
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:03 pm

From an operational and CS standpoint AA is often at the bottom of the barrel. Yes there's some dedicated employees but too many times for example you're at the gate. It's past boarding time and what the GAs doing? Communicating to paxs of why the flight isn't boarding? Of course. They're giggling and laughing with each other. No need to tell those annoying paxs anything.

Now I fly enough to know some of the signs. Maintenance people walking on and off the plane. Seemingly the lack of a crew. Etc. And I have the EXP line and the AC to help with re-booking. But to most flyers they have no clue as to what is going on and no one to help.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:58 pm

dfw88 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
An opinion cannot be wrong. But it can be disagreed with. I don't disagree with you but my interpretation is definately not fantasy.. The stipulations of the partnership will force complementary services rather than competing services within the N.E. AA expansion in FLL doesn't change that.


An opinion can absolutely be wrong when one forms an opinion in the face of competing facts. If I tell you that in my opinion the earth is flat, then my opinion is wrong, because that's the sort of factual thing about which no one has any business forming an opinion. Your opinion is that AA and B6 are engaged in a pseudo-merger which is factually incorrect. They are not coordinating schedules or routes (as this weekend clearly showed), sharing revenue, or doing anything else that would be considered either collusion or a merger. The facts, as we currently understand them, point to a simple codeshare with some elite benefits in certain markets of the country. The facts, in other words, prove your opinion wrong.

That is absolutely not to say that the situation may not change in the future. If your opinion is that one day they will merge in some form or fashion then fine, I have no disagreement with that. But that's now how I've understood your comments.


Agreed on opinion about Earth. But this is an opinion about business and how both AA and B6 have engaged into this partnership in the backdrop of C19. They are viewing this as the best scenario to a merger neither of which can afford to convince shareholders that allocating money for a takeover is in the best interest at this time. Codeshare on paper. But in the context of it, it's a de facto merger when American does one side of the business and JetBlue does the other. There are very strict guidelines to this agreement. JetBlue is not free to do what is in the best interest of itself unless it's with the colors of red, white and blue. IMO.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6725
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:21 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
An opinion cannot be wrong. But it can be disagreed with. I don't disagree with you but my interpretation is definately not fantasy.. The stipulations of the partnership will force complementary services rather than competing services within the N.E. AA expansion in FLL doesn't change that.


An opinion can absolutely be wrong when one forms an opinion in the face of competing facts. If I tell you that in my opinion the earth is flat, then my opinion is wrong, because that's the sort of factual thing about which no one has any business forming an opinion. Your opinion is that AA and B6 are engaged in a pseudo-merger which is factually incorrect. They are not coordinating schedules or routes (as this weekend clearly showed), sharing revenue, or doing anything else that would be considered either collusion or a merger. The facts, as we currently understand them, point to a simple codeshare with some elite benefits in certain markets of the country. The facts, in other words, prove your opinion wrong.

That is absolutely not to say that the situation may not change in the future. If your opinion is that one day they will merge in some form or fashion then fine, I have no disagreement with that. But that's now how I've understood your comments.


Agreed on opinion about Earth. But this is an opinion about business and how both AA and B6 have engaged into this partnership in the backdrop of C19. They are viewing this as the best scenario to a merger neither of which can afford to convince shareholders that allocating money for a takeover is in the best interest at this time. Codeshare on paper. But in the context of it, it's a de facto merger when American does one side of the business and JetBlue does the other. There are very strict guidelines to this agreement. JetBlue is not free to do what is in the best interest of itself unless it's with the colors of red, white and blue. IMO.


Do you have any proof JetBlue is not free to do what is in its best interest? Please provide that if you do. I have seen no evidence it's doing anything that's counter to its best interest.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:24 am

tphuang wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
dfw88 wrote:

An opinion can absolutely be wrong when one forms an opinion in the face of competing facts. If I tell you that in my opinion the earth is flat, then my opinion is wrong, because that's the sort of factual thing about which no one has any business forming an opinion. Your opinion is that AA and B6 are engaged in a pseudo-merger which is factually incorrect. They are not coordinating schedules or routes (as this weekend clearly showed), sharing revenue, or doing anything else that would be considered either collusion or a merger. The facts, as we currently understand them, point to a simple codeshare with some elite benefits in certain markets of the country. The facts, in other words, prove your opinion wrong.

That is absolutely not to say that the situation may not change in the future. If your opinion is that one day they will merge in some form or fashion then fine, I have no disagreement with that. But that's now how I've understood your comments.


Agreed on opinion about Earth. But this is an opinion about business and how both AA and B6 have engaged into this partnership in the backdrop of C19. They are viewing this as the best scenario to a merger neither of which can afford to convince shareholders that allocating money for a takeover is in the best interest at this time. Codeshare on paper. But in the context of it, it's a de facto merger when American does one side of the business and JetBlue does the other. There are very strict guidelines to this agreement. JetBlue is not free to do what is in the best interest of itself unless it's with the colors of red, white and blue. IMO.


Do you have any proof JetBlue is not free to do what is in its best interest? Please provide that if you do. I have seen no evidence it's doing anything that's counter to its best interest.


In the agreement report you posted a long time ago JetBlue is regulated to only working with American with any significance. . I personally do not see that as being in the best interest of JetBlue shareholders unless best interest is 1) eliminating American as a direct competitor in alliance territory and/or 2) the alliance is a harbinger for an inevitable merger.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6725
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:09 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
tphuang wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

Agreed on opinion about Earth. But this is an opinion about business and how both AA and B6 have engaged into this partnership in the backdrop of C19. They are viewing this as the best scenario to a merger neither of which can afford to convince shareholders that allocating money for a takeover is in the best interest at this time. Codeshare on paper. But in the context of it, it's a de facto merger when American does one side of the business and JetBlue does the other. There are very strict guidelines to this agreement. JetBlue is not free to do what is in the best interest of itself unless it's with the colors of red, white and blue. IMO.


Do you have any proof JetBlue is not free to do what is in its best interest? Please provide that if you do. I have seen no evidence it's doing anything that's counter to its best interest.


In the agreement report you posted a long time ago JetBlue is regulated to only working with American with any significance. . I personally do not see that as being in the best interest of JetBlue shareholders unless best interest is 1) eliminating American as a direct competitor in alliance territory and/or 2) the alliance is a harbinger for an inevitable merger.


please post the exact line you are referring to and also which network planning decision they have taken that is counter to their best interest.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:37 pm

Would you care to repost the link? Not sure how to. And JetBlue obviously is concerned about its best interest in the context of its defacto merger partner.
 
dca1
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:32 pm

Any idea on when details will be released and why are both airlines still mum on this after it was approved?
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:34 pm

tphuang wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Do you have any proof JetBlue is not free to do what is in its best interest? Please provide that if you do. I have seen no evidence it's doing anything that's counter to its best interest.


In the agreement report you posted a long time ago JetBlue is regulated to only working with American with any significance. . I personally do not see that as being in the best interest of JetBlue shareholders unless best interest is 1) eliminating American as a direct competitor in alliance territory and/or 2) the alliance is a harbinger for an inevitable merger.


please post the exact line you are referring to and also which network planning decision they have taken that is counter to their best interest.


Would you care to repost the link? Not sure how to. And JetBlue obviously is concerned about its best interests, but in the context of its defacto merger partner. There is lots of evidence of that.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1193
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:02 pm

tphuang wrote:
Aside from PTV, there isn't that much difference between AA and DL's hard product. You are more likely to find bigger differences between the aircraft they operate. People complain about the new FC seat on AA, but it actually has more pitch than DL's FC seat.


AA's PTV's in Economy on the 738 and A321 are better than DL's from an interface perspective if you ask me. The problem is I believe AA is ripping them out and/or stopped installing them. The overhead screens on AA are fun too as they stream much of the F/A announcements and they have the looped '80s station in the armrest as well.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6725
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:29 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
tphuang wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

In the agreement report you posted a long time ago JetBlue is regulated to only working with American with any significance. . I personally do not see that as being in the best interest of JetBlue shareholders unless best interest is 1) eliminating American as a direct competitor in alliance territory and/or 2) the alliance is a harbinger for an inevitable merger.


please post the exact line you are referring to and also which network planning decision they have taken that is counter to their best interest.


Would you care to repost the link? Not sure how to. And JetBlue obviously is concerned about its best interests, but in the context of its defacto merger partner. There is lots of evidence of that.


I didn't respond because I have no idea which link you are talking about. If your evidence is some link I apparently posted but don't remember, that's super weak.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:43 pm

N649DL wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Aside from PTV, there isn't that much difference between AA and DL's hard product. You are more likely to find bigger differences between the aircraft they operate. People complain about the new FC seat on AA, but it actually has more pitch than DL's FC seat.


AA's PTV's in Economy on the 738 and A321 are better than DL's from an interface perspective if you ask me. The problem is I believe AA is ripping them out and/or stopped installing them. The overhead screens on AA are fun too as they stream much of the F/A announcements and they have the looped '80s station in the armrest as well.


I believe all of the 738s have now been "oasis". At least I haven't seen screens in at least 4 months. I think the plan is to "oasis" the LUS 321s first (and finally add in power ports) then "oasis" the LAA 321. Eventually other than the LAA 319s no narrow bodies will have AVOD.

As far as these moves. Both AA and B6 are fighting for their survival. I doubt that management is really thinking of the potential merger at this point in the game, but instead just somehow sucking on the government teat and avoiding Chapter 11. Since FL is a bright spot no surprise AA and B6 are adding capacity because they can fill planes to FL. Mind you with fares that will eventually send them back to the government for another bailout or the bankruptcy court.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26683
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:05 am

Miamiairport wrote:
N649DL wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Aside from PTV, there isn't that much difference between AA and DL's hard product. You are more likely to find bigger differences between the aircraft they operate. People complain about the new FC seat on AA, but it actually has more pitch than DL's FC seat.


AA's PTV's in Economy on the 738 and A321 are better than DL's from an interface perspective if you ask me. The problem is I believe AA is ripping them out and/or stopped installing them. The overhead screens on AA are fun too as they stream much of the F/A announcements and they have the looped '80s station in the armrest as well.


I believe all of the 738s have now been "oasis". At least I haven't seen screens in at least 4 months. I think the plan is to "oasis" the LUS 321s first (and finally add in power ports) then "oasis" the LAA 321. Eventually other than the LAA 319s no narrow bodies will have AVOD.

As far as these moves. Both AA and B6 are fighting for their survival. I doubt that management is really thinking of the potential merger at this point in the game, but instead just somehow sucking on the government teat and avoiding Chapter 11. Since FL is a bright spot no surprise AA and B6 are adding capacity because they can fill planes to FL. Mind you with fares that will eventually send them back to the government for another bailout or the bankruptcy court.


They have not. In fact I think only one or two 738s have actually had PTVs removed.

The A321T fleet will keep PTVs and while I have no idea what the status is, AA has been reconsidering keeping the PTVs.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: American adds FLL-LAX/BOS/JFK

Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:12 am

tphuang wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
tphuang wrote:

please post the exact line you are referring to and also which network planning decision they have taken that is counter to their best interest.


Would you care to repost the link? Not sure how to. And JetBlue obviously is concerned about its best interests, but in the context of its defacto merger partner. There is lots of evidence of that.


I didn't respond because I have no idea which link you are talking about. If your evidence is some link I apparently posted but don't remember, that's super weak.


B6's 10k or 8k on the alliance. That one. You tell me what in there is counter to them trying to get away with de facto merger in the context of the current state of industry affairs. It would just be convenient for all to read it instead of it being hidden. And the only thing Super is the 80. Super weak is not good aviation parlance.

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