Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
pune
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:32 am

With all that is going on, saw this yesterday -

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... ar-tehran/

Now while it's NOT a MAX but an aged 737, do people think it will hit Boeing reputation more. Even though, the report says Iran has an aged fleet (possible perhaps) but also with the recent U.S. - Iran posturing could Boeing and American economy suffer more ? At the very least, it would lead to more bad press for Boeing and not being able to ascertain the reasons for the crash (because of the sactions) it would perhaps be more bad news. I do hope Boeing PR does do something about it, but what they could do is perhaps questionable at this point in time.
 
ArjenterAvest
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:52 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:54 am

pune wrote:
With all that is going on, saw this yesterday -

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... ar-tehran/

Now while it's NOT a MAX but an aged 737, do people think it will hit Boeing reputation more. Even though, the report says Iran has an aged fleet (possible perhaps) but also with the recent U.S. - Iran posturing could Boeing and American economy suffer more ? At the very least, it would lead to more bad press for Boeing and not being able to ascertain the reasons for the crash (because of the sactions) it would perhaps be more bad news. I do hope Boeing PR does do something about it, but what they could do is perhaps questionable at this point in time.

This was an Ukrainian plane of 3 years old. It happened in Iran though.
 
pune
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:02 am

ArjenterAvest wrote:
pune wrote:
With all that is going on, saw this yesterday -

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... ar-tehran/

Now while it's NOT a MAX but an aged 737, do people think it will hit Boeing reputation more. Even though, the report says Iran has an aged fleet (possible perhaps) but also with the recent U.S. - Iran posturing could Boeing and American economy suffer more ? At the very least, it would lead to more bad press for Boeing and not being able to ascertain the reasons for the crash (because of the sactions) it would perhaps be more bad news. I do hope Boeing PR does do something about it, but what they could do is perhaps questionable at this point in time.

This was an Ukrainian plane of 3 years old. It happened in Iran though.


I know, just saw there was a separte thread of it, hence following it there

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438597

Seems Boeing is going to have a tough year this year and this isn't good news for the civil airliner by any stretch of imagination even if it was shot down ot there was a bomb or whatever. Details yet to be ascertained it seems.
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:16 am

Let's keep fingers crossed that nothing involved in this crash leads to normal 737s being grounded as well!!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19704
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:01 pm

Please continue all discussion on the 737NG crash in Iran here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438597
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
bhxdtw
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:51 am

Quick question.. Why and "how" did AC just ferry a MAX from Marana to Windsor? I'm not an expert on anything MAX so excuse the naivety...

Thx
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 2539
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:08 am

Interested wrote:
Let's keep fingers crossed that nothing involved in this crash leads to normal 737s being grounded as well!!


NG's safety has been proven through years of flight without evidence of catastrophic design flaws. The max had not been flying for long and in small numbers before the first MCAS linked crash.

Even if old flaws are unearthed its highly unlikely they are remotely on the same level as the MCAS fiasco.


By the way, was it ever solved why the AoA vane on the lionair plane was still sending faulty data after being replaced (thus activating MCAS)? That always seemed to be a separate flaw that also needed resolution, or at least identified so we'd know it was a one-off flaw unique to that aircraft, and not a defect in many of them.
情報
 
seb76
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:13 am

pune wrote:
With all that is going on, saw this yesterday -

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... ar-tehran/

Now while it's NOT a MAX but an aged 737, do people think it will hit Boeing reputation more. Even though, the report says Iran has an aged fleet (possible perhaps) but also with the recent U.S. - Iran posturing could Boeing and American economy suffer more ? At the very least, it would lead to more bad press for Boeing and not being able to ascertain the reasons for the crash (because of the sactions) it would perhaps be more bad news. I do hope Boeing PR does do something about it, but what they could do is perhaps questionable at this point in time.


It seems Seattle Times mixed up a few things. A 3 years old 737-800 can hardly be perceived as an "aged" 737 ... it's not a Max but it's not old either. As for the Iranian fleets operating old planes, this is about an Ukrainian airline operating a flight in Iran. They can buy whatever they want and obtain parts easily, so it's not one of those crashes with a 40 years old plane full of handcrafted parts for which the trade sanctions can be blamed.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2563
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:17 am

bhxdtw wrote:
Quick question.. Why and "how" did AC just ferry a MAX from Marana to Windsor? I'm not an expert on anything MAX so excuse the naivety...

Thx

How would be easy, by asking for and receiving permission from the Canadian regulators.
In the recent past permission has been granted so that Air Canada maintains a pool of pilots who can instruct and qualify other pilots on 737MAX. This was necessary because their certification would expire if not used, as in most jurisdictions. Air Canada has no 737NGs - most other airlines with MAXs in the fleet also have 737NGs and at least at the moment the NG is officially classed as equivalent to the MAX for this purpose.
Now someone else will have to tell you why this specific flight took place. Permits have also been granted in the recent past for flights to reposition planes to airports where there is more storage room, or where maintenance facilities for eventual return to service are better suited.
 
simsausa
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:10 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:13 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
Quick question.. Why and "how" did AC just ferry a MAX from Marana to Windsor? I'm not an expert on anything MAX so excuse the naivety...

Thx

This flight was for an internet install and for maintenance since these aircraft don't come equipped with wifi from the factory
 
bhxdtw
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:14 pm

Andy33 wrote:
bhxdtw wrote:
Quick question.. Why and "how" did AC just ferry a MAX from Marana to Windsor? I'm not an expert on anything MAX so excuse the naivety...

Thx

How would be easy, by asking for and receiving permission from the Canadian regulators.
In the recent past permission has been granted so that Air Canada maintains a pool of pilots who can instruct and qualify other pilots on 737MAX. This was necessary because their certification would expire if not used, as in most jurisdictions. Air Canada has no 737NGs - most other airlines with MAXs in the fleet also have 737NGs and at least at the moment the NG is officially classed as equivalent to the MAX for this purpose.
Now someone else will have to tell you why this specific flight took place. Permits have also been granted in the recent past for flights to reposition planes to airports where there is more storage room, or where maintenance facilities for eventual return to service are better suited.


Thanks! I was just curious. :-)
 
Cruiser
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:52 pm

Boeing faces a $5.6B tab for simulator training.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2020/0 ... ining.html
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
oschkosch
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:08 pm

Cruiser wrote:
Boeing faces a $5.6B tab for simulator training.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2020/0 ... ining.html
incorrect. They have planned 5.6B$ already. Sim training will cost additional 5B$. Plus compensation going into at least 6.xB$.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:14 am

Seems like everyone in Boeing knew, and colluded to swap lifes for bucks, even tweaking simulators:

*Boeing Employees Mocked F.A.A. in Internal Messages*

“... Several lawmakers expressed dismay at the language used in the messages, saying they reflected a disregard for safety and broader problems with the culture at the company.

Representative Peter DeFazio, a Democrat from Oregon who is leading the House investigation into the development of the 737 Max, called the emails “incredibly damning” in a statement. He added: “They paint a deeply disturbing picture of the lengths Boeing was apparently willing to go to in order to evade scrutiny from regulators, flight crews and the flying public, even as its own employees were sounding alarms internally...”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/busi ... &smtyp=cur
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:39 am

Jayafe wrote:
Seems like everyone in Boeing knew, and colluded to swap lifes for bucks, even tweaking simulators:

*Boeing Employees Mocked F.A.A. in Internal Messages*

“... Several lawmakers expressed dismay at the language used in the messages, saying they reflected a disregard for safety and broader problems with the culture at the company.

Representative Peter DeFazio, a Democrat from Oregon who is leading the House investigation into the development of the 737 Max, called the emails “incredibly damning” in a statement. He added: “They paint a deeply disturbing picture of the lengths Boeing was apparently willing to go to in order to evade scrutiny from regulators, flight crews and the flying public, even as its own employees were sounding alarms internally...”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/busi ... &smtyp=cur


From the article:

Boeing employees mocked federal rules, talked about deceiving regulators and joked about potential flaws in the 737 Max as it was being developed, according to over a hundred pages of internal messages delivered Thursday to congressional investigators.

“I still haven’t been forgiven by God for the covering up I did last year,” one of the employees said in messages from 2018, apparently in reference to interactions with the Federal Aviation Administration

I trust all of them lose their jobs and pensions
 
Indy
Posts: 4930
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:42 am

"The language used in these communications, and some of the sentiments they express, are inconsistent with Boeing values, and the company is taking appropriate action in response. "

I don't know. Based on Boeing's behavior, it seems very consistent. The messages were unprofessional but I think it shows an overall contempt for the system that Boeing seems to embrace.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:42 am

Some of the Boeing messages from the article

“Would you put your family on a Max simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t,” one employee said to a colleague in another exchange from 2018, before the first crash. “No,” the colleague responded.

In another set of messages, employees questioned the design of the Max and even denigrated their own colleagues. “This airplane is designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys,” an employee wrote in an exchange from 2017


In an exchange from 2015, a Boeing employee said that a presentation the company gave to the F.A.A. was so complicated that, for the agency officials and even himself, “it was like dogs watching TV.”


In an email from August 2016, a marketing employee at the company cheered the news that regulators had approved a short computer-based training for pilots who have flown the 737 NG, the predecessor to the Max, instead of requiring simulator training.

“You can be away from an NG for 30 years and still be able to jump into a MAX? LOVE IT!!” the employee says, following up later with an email noting: “This is a big part of the operating cost structure in our marketing decks.”
Last edited by Interested on Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:51 am

This explains the timing of the new CEO stating Boeing now are behind simulator training last week

Boeing knew what was coming out this week and needed to do some PR in advance

It all makes sense now
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:02 am

Knowing the comments were coming out may also explain timing of Mullenburg leaving
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:03 am

Indy wrote:
"The language used in these communications, and some of the sentiments they express, are inconsistent with Boeing values, and the company is taking appropriate action in response. "

I don't know. Based on Boeing's behavior, it seems very consistent. The messages were unprofessional but I think it shows an overall contempt for the system that Boeing seems to embrace.


Hard to argue with that
 
Ugly51
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:33 am

This sounds absolutely par for the course for BCA. The arrogance of these bastards is astounding.
Shut the program down save people anymore trouble.
 
flash330
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:53 am

oschkosch wrote:
Cruiser wrote:
Boeing faces a $5.6B tab for simulator training.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2020/0 ... ining.html
incorrect. They have planned 5.6B$ already. Sim training will cost additional 5B$. Plus compensation going into at least 6.xB$.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk

Reminds me of the saying 'If you think safety is expensive? Try an accident'
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:12 am

A public hanging of the guilty is required for the 350 dead due to these clowns. Clearly a serious criminal investigation is required to deter future negligence. Hope the present investigations are not the subprime type where no one went to jail and the banks were propped up by the Government.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:31 am

They seem to have tried to block sim training required from any regulator. From the Damning Boeing employee messages say Max 'designed by clowns'

The latest batch of communications includes a 2017 email in which the chief technical pilot on the 737 crowed to Boeing colleagues, “Looks like my jedi mind trick worked again!” Attached was a forwarded email exchange in which the pilot warned an unnamed recipient against offering simulator training for 737 Max pilots, pushing instead for the computer-based course that regulators had already approved for pilots transitioning to Max from earlier 737 models.
...
“I am concerned that if [redacted] chooses to require a Max simulator for its pilots beyond what all other regulators are requiring that it will be creating a difficult and unnecessary training burden for your airline, as well as potentially establish a precedent in your region for other Max customers,” the Boeing pilot wrote in the forwarded message.

An unidentified Boeing employee in a different text message exchange brags about swaying India’s regulator “to make them feel stupid about trying to require any additional training requirements.”

Added the sender: “I just Jedi mind tricked this [sic] fools. I should be given $1000 every time I take one of these calls. I save this company a sick amount of $$$$.”

In another 2017 email, the 737 chief technical pilot again expressed resistance to simulator training for pilots transitioning from the older 737 NG family to the Max. “Boeing will not allow that to happen. We’ll go face to face with any regulator who tries to make that a requirement,” the pilot wrote.
...
The employee recommended describing MCAS as an addition to an existing speed trim system, instead of as a new feature.“If we emphasize MCAS is a new function there may be greater certification and training impact”

In a memo on June 1, 2018, an employee vented about a culture where managers only give lip-service to quality. The sender was warning that Boeing might not be granted an extension to fix the Max simulator at London’s Gatwick airport, which would put the device at risk of losing its qualification.

“We put ourselves in this position by picking the lowest cost supplier and signing up to impossible schedules. Why did the lowest ranking and most unproven supplier receive the contract? Solely based on bottom dollar. Not just MAX but also the 777X!

Added the employee: “I don’t know how to fix these things... it’s systematic. It’s culture. It’s the fact that we have a senior leadership team that understand very little about the business and yet are driving us to certain objectives. Its lots of individual groups that aren’t working closely and being accountable. It exemplifies the ‘lazy B’” -- the nickname the person used for Boeing.
Last edited by blrsea on Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LJ
Posts: 5289
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:32 am

Indy wrote:
The messages were unprofessional but I think it shows an overall contempt for the system that Boeing seems to embrace.


I don't think you can classify these messages as "unprofessional". The messages were from professionals ventilating their anger over decisions made by upper management which, in their views, were dangerous. The only thing is that you usually make sure that there is no trail of these kind of mails (thus you talk to other persons instead of writing mails) or that the language used is more politically correct. The fact that they write this stuff in mails shows how bad Boeing controls its own people. Moreover, it shows that a culture change is/was needed.
 
max999
Posts: 1218
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:41 am

Beyond the derogatory and arrogant messages, the Seattle Times goes into more detail about the messages that reveals Boeing's cost cutting goals for the MAX. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

The documents also confirm that Boeing rejected a proposed system safety upgrade to the MAX on the grounds that doing so would add cost by triggering a need for all pilots to have flight-simulator training to qualify to fly the MAX.

Just this week, Boeing finally relented and is now recommending flight-simulator training for all pilots before the MAX returns to service.

The documents also suggest that Boeing’s development of the simulators, working in Miami, Singapore, London and Shanghai with a new equipment supplier called TRU, was plagued with all sorts of technical problems.

And they show that Boeing planned to carefully present the new flight control software on the MAX that went haywire during the two crashes — the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) — as simply an extension of an existing system so as to avoid increased certification and pilot training impact.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
max999
Posts: 1218
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:44 am

Interested wrote:
Some of the Boeing messages from the article

“You can be away from an NG for 30 years and still be able to jump into a MAX? LOVE IT!!” the employee says, following up later with an email noting: “This is a big part of the operating cost structure in our marketing decks.”


So the MAX was not only engineered to meet the bean counter's requirements, it was also designed to meet the requirements in the marketing department's PowerPoint deck!!!

This is a classic situation of the tail wagging the dog. :banghead: :mad: :bomb:
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19033
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:49 am

LJ wrote:
Indy wrote:
The messages were unprofessional but I think it shows an overall contempt for the system that Boeing seems to embrace.


I don't think you can classify these messages as "unprofessional". The messages were from professionals ventilating their anger over decisions made by upper management which, in their views, were dangerous.


I'd have to disagree with your characterisation - there are employees literally boasting that they fooled authorities...

An unidentified Boeing employee in a different text message exchange brags about swaying India’s regulator “to make them feel stupid about trying to require any additional training requirements.”

LJ wrote:
Moreover, it shows that a culture change is/was needed.


Agreed.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:02 am

Boeing Max 737

"A plane designed by clowns"

Pretty much sums the whole situation up
 
Agrajag
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:07 am

I didnt think it could get much worse. Shows what I know. It really was a programme wide cover up.

The sheer arrogance is breathtaking.

I wonder how the Boeing defenders on these pages are going to try to spin this?
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
mysfit
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:16 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:08 am

Lawyers representing families must be salivating over those emails. Dripping with contempt, arrogance and intention.
 
Asiaflyer
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:50 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:14 am

Interested wrote:
Boeing Max 737

"A plane designed by clowns"

Pretty much sums the whole situation up


You can add
"designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys".

And also
And in a May 2018 message, an unnamed Boeing employee said: "I still haven't been forgiven by god for the covering up I did last year."
Without referencing what was covered up, the employee added: "Cant do it one more time. the Pearly gates will be closed..."

This messages and many others sends chilles down my spine.

So in reality can FAA still approve 737MAX RTS without an investigation of what all these internal messages are referring to?
Is there much more covered up by Boeing that has not come up during last 9 months?
 
Agrajag
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:16 am

I bet Ryan Air and British Airways are delighted that they have a memorable marketing tagline for their new plane "The Boeing 737 Max, designed by clowns who were managed by monkeys". Where do I book!!
:roll:
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:17 am

Agrajag wrote:

I wonder how the Boeing defenders on these pages are going to try to spin this?


There is no way to spin this. It's horrendous. It explains Mullenburg going for sure. He wouldn't have survived this.

The clown comment will grab the headlines but the comment below is the worst of the lot IMO:

“I still haven’t been forgiven by God for the covering up I did last year,” one of the employees said in messages from 2018, apparently in reference to interactions with the Federal Aviation Administration.

Does that comment alone not move this from negligent to criminal?
 
oschkosch
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:21 am

These newly released comments are quite alarming. This one alone will surely "help" them getting certification in India again:

An unidentified Boeing employee in a different text message exchange brags about swaying India’s regulator “to make them feel stupid about trying to require any additional training requirements.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:24 am

And after all that there are still some cheerleaders like VV who claim with a straight face that the MAX should not have been grounded until it is fixed...
Some people really need to look "self respect" up in a dictionary.
 
Agrajag
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:33 am

There are those who wish to imply, even now, that fundamentally it is a safe plane and that it is substandard piloting that is to blame. Mind you, they have been less prevalent since DM got the push. Perhaps the paychecks from Boeing PR agents dried up with the change in management? Shurly shome mishtake??
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
boerje
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:16 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:34 am

Agrajag wrote:
I bet Ryan Air and British Airways are delighted that they have a memorable marketing tagline for their new plane "The Boeing 737 Max, designed by clowns who were managed by monkeys". Where do I book!!
:roll:


Alaska Airlines: "Proudly some Airbus"
 
Planetalk
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:54 am

It looks like that smoking gun may have been found. While it's incredibly sad to see such a previously grand company behaving in such a way, anger is the overriding emotion. The extent of it all shows Boeing really does need a complete clean out in management, a couple of sacrificial lambs are token gestures that will do nothing to change the culture.

I think we can safely say the 777x won't be flying passengers for a lot longer than currently stated. The regulators will be all over it. Now we know Boeing even managed to inadvertently shave off the lightning protection from the MAX, there will be no stone left unturned.
Last edited by Planetalk on Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JibberJim
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:33 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:56 am

The Max-10 isn't certified either right? What about the RyanAir specific changes for their MAX does that require distinct certification?
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:06 am

They are talking like slimy traders on The Wolf Of Wall Street pulling off thir latest scam rather than like people responsible for safety of passengers

What king of management allows this culture to develop?

A company in a huge mess and totally out of control

Needs a huge shake up from top to bottom

Mullenburg should have been replaced with an external CEO brought in to entirely change the culture

(That may well still need to happen regardless)
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:15 am

Airbus leaders need to be monitoring this and make sure they have the exact opposite in terms of culture from Boeing

They are in such a position of strength and higher ground right now

Don't allow themselves to be dragged into this. Aviation industry cant afford them to go down this route as well.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:37 am

max999 wrote:
Interested wrote:
Some of the Boeing messages from the article

“You can be away from an NG for 30 years and still be able to jump into a MAX? LOVE IT!!” the employee says, following up later with an email noting: “This is a big part of the operating cost structure in our marketing decks.”


So the MAX was not only engineered to meet the bean counter's requirements, it was also designed to meet the requirements in the marketing department's PowerPoint deck!!!

This is a classic situation of the tail wagging the dog. :banghead: :mad: :bomb:

Yea... The difference between the ecstatic marketing guy and the disgusted engineer tell a lot about the internal cultural problem: money was total priority over safety.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:42 am

It seems that all the posters here talking a bout a conspiracy against Boeing to draw the ETS date, should reconsider their foil hats. It is in the interest of Boeing to not leave unresolved problems to stay hidden. I assume that with the retirement of Muilenburg the game of chicken with the regulators has found an end.

One can only hope that all problems with the MAX are now at least identified and getting resolved, so that bird gets into the air this year and airline can start to fly it again.

I keep to my opinion, that the MAX can only be a place holder and Boeing has to start on an replacement right away when the MAX problem has been resolved. The identical type rating seems to have gone down the drain anyway.

The question remains, if somebody at Boeing will have to face a criminal court. What VW did with swindle around emissions on the diesel cars did lead to involvement of the USA justice system. Playing with peoples lives should be looked on more serious than swindling on emissions.
I would say the smoking gun has been found and identified and Boeing has been getting into the mess with both eyes wide open, pulled by the smell of easy money.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1861
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:50 am

I guess Boeing knew they couldn't send Muilenberg back in front of Congress, if that is what will transpire again with this release, again with these new messages. I wonder what else there is still to discover from Boeing, seeing as the initial messages was only sent 2 weeks before DM went to testify at Congress and these latest batch was sent in December. So what else did Boeing employees think about the MAX that they kept internal?
 
User avatar
PepeTheFrog
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:00 am

Check out this tweet: https://twitter.com/davidshepardson/sta ... 5130701826

Image

FAA: please have a GOOD look at the 777X certification.
Good moaning!
 
kayik
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:02 am

1.Ikea to pay $46 million to family whose son was killed by a dresser that toppled onto him after the historic recall of 29 miilon chests.
2.VW case
3.DM's compensation
4. Ralph Nader saying "I will never let Boeing forget Samya"
5.People like Paul Njogore who lost his whole family in ET crash

Considering the above what is the fair amount do you think Boeing should pay for each victim?
 
Agrajag
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:05 am

Interested wrote:
They are talking like slimy traders on The Wolf Of Wall Street pulling off thir latest scam rather than like people responsible for safety of passengers

What king of management allows this culture to develop?

A company in a huge mess and totally out of control

Needs a huge shake up from top to bottom

Mullenburg should have been replaced with an external CEO brought in to entirely change the culture

(That may well still need to happen regardless)



Willie Walsh would give Boeing the kick up the backside it needs.
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
User avatar
PepeTheFrog
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:10 am

Interested wrote:
Boeing Max 737

"A plane designed by clowns"

Pretty much sums the whole situation up


rofl

Reuters compiled a nice list of the internal messages.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1Z90NP

Take this one for example:

- In a March 2017 email, one Boeing employee said “FAA is pretty powerful and most countries defer to what the FAA does (except for National Authorities that are stuck in the Stone Ages. Eg. JCAB, ANAC)” in reference to the aviation regulators of Japan and Brazil.


All Nippon Airways, are you reading this? Boeing thinks your country still lives in the Stone Age.

Or how about this one:

- In a instant messaging exchange on Feb. 8, 2018 - when the plane was in the air and eight months before the first crash, an employee asks another: “Would you put your family on a MAX simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t”.

The second employee responds: “No”.


They knew the plane was unsafe.
Good moaning!
 
gregpodpl
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:49 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:17 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
FAA: please have a GOOD look at the 777X certification.

Also: EASA, please have a GOOD look at FAA and the 777X certification.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos