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Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:21 am

- “I’ll be shocked if the FAA passes this turd,” an unnamed employee says in a May 2018 instant message conversation.
 
blrsea
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:22 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Or how about this one:

- In a instant messaging exchange on Feb. 8, 2018 - when the plane was in the air and eight months before the first crash, an employee asks another: “Would you put your family on a MAX simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t”.

The second employee responds: “No”.


They knew the plane was unsafe.


I think this particular exchange is taken out of context by many people. The two employees are talking about the MAX simulators, not the plane. The person clearly says whether they would trust a pilot trained on that simulator.

Of course, the rest of the exchange, especially from the technical pilots or marketing where they joke about fooling FAA and other regulators is appalling and shows that culture of closing sales & preventing simulator requirement to push sales overrode legitimate concerns about safety. At least from the way they were talking, it clearly implies that they were knowingly fooling the regulators and airlines about the need for using simulators.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:22 am

“If we emphasize MCAS is a new function there may be a greater certification and training impact. Treat as addition to Speed Trim.”
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:25 am

Interested wrote:
- “I’ll be shocked if the FAA passes this turd,” an unnamed employee says in a May 2018 instant message conversation.


Boeing Max 737

"A turd designed by clowns led by monkeys"

How many would you like to order sir?

(Seriously - even if it's ever ungrounded - why would anyone in the industry want to order more and be associated with it)
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:33 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Interested wrote:

- In a instant messaging exchange on Feb. 8, 2018 - when the plane was in the air and eight months before the first crash, an employee asks another: “Would you put your family on a MAX simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t”.

The second employee responds: “No”.


They knew the plane was unsafe.


They were talking about simulators, not the plane. There appears to have been discord about the simulator contractor for MAX simulators not being a high quality vendor. This message exchange seems to be about putting your family on a plane when the pilots were trained on a MAX simulator.

With regards to these messages in general, while they paint a very poor picture some of the wording contained in them is typical of general venting and complaining done in a large, corporate engineering environment. The engineers are always complaining about management, marketing and program management.

The message do reveal that there was a clear intent to minimize MCAS so that it wouldn't trigger training requirements. It doesn't seem like the discussions were based around MCAS failure scenarios. It seems more that they were concerned that regulators would require training flying with MCAS operating as intended.

It also should be noted that the "bad" email and message exchanges were very few messages compared with the tens or hundreds of thousands of messages that went around throughout the program. The concerning ones to me are the messages related to "tricking" the regulators. Those are the ones that need to be investigated seriously as a regulator can not possibly do their job if a manufacturer is setting out to mislead them intentionally.

Messages like the "clowns/monkeys" one are sensational but far less concerning because that type of talk is typical of what you will get from some engineers in an organization like Boeing. I'm sure that if you went through the messages of Airbus (or Lockheed or SpaceX etc.) you will find some messages expressing similar sentiments. In contrast, I would not expect most manufacturers to be intentionally trying to fool the regulators.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:45 am

Agrajag wrote:
There are those who wish to imply, even now, that fundamentally it is a safe plane and that it is substandard piloting that is to blame. Mind you, they have been less prevalent since DM got the push. Perhaps the paychecks from Boeing PR agents dried up with the change in management? Shurly shome mishtake??


There were very few, if any posters that ever said MCAS as implemented was a good design. What many (including myself) suggested is that the failure produced by MCAS could have been mitigated by the pilots (especially the ET crew due to being informed of the failure mode by the EAD).

It is not mutually exclusive to have a flawed design but also poorly trained/skilled pilots which allowed the failure produced by the flawed design to lead to crashes. MCAS didn't cause the stabilizer to break off and leave the pilots with no possibility of recovery.

If those who share my opinions are supposed to be being paid then I'd like to know who to contact at Boeing to receive my checks which are very far in arrears at this point. I don't know about others but I have posted these opinions far less often because of two reasons. First, I don't see a need to keep repeating myself and second I feel like I am beating my head against a wall against the posters that feel that dead pilots can not possibly be criticized at all.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:48 am

Didn't Boeing just change the suggested MAX transition training from ipad to simulator? So they seem to recognize some changes in training are needed. It's not the pilots, it's aircraft and training that need improvement.
 
LJ
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:48 am

scbriml wrote:
LJ wrote:
Indy wrote:
The messages were unprofessional but I think it shows an overall contempt for the system that Boeing seems to embrace.


I don't think you can classify these messages as "unprofessional". The messages were from professionals ventilating their anger over decisions made by upper management which, in their views, were dangerous.


I'd have to disagree with your characterisation - there are employees literally boasting that they fooled authorities...

An unidentified Boeing employee in a different text message exchange brags about swaying India’s regulator “to make them feel stupid about trying to require any additional training requirements.”

.


I agree that's disrespectful (I missed this part). At the same time I wonder why Boeing employees don't get communication lessons. I work in a large financial institution and we get training on what we should and shouldn't say and how (especially on paper which includes any digital form like mail, text messages and Whatsapp). Not only as it is disrespectful, but more so as our company doesn't tolerate such line of communication. Finally we're told that any communication we do on paper, email or any other digital form, can leak to the outside world thus we've to be aware that we cannot rely on internal communication to remain internal (and therefore adjust the communication accordingly). One would expect that a large US company would have similar training in place for its employees and enforces its internal communication policies. One thing sure, if I would have written such mails, I would be out of a job instantly (and when caught lying to our regulator I would receive a ban on working in my line of profession for a few months/years).
Last edited by LJ on Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:49 am

Agrajag wrote:
Interested wrote:
They are talking like slimy traders on The Wolf Of Wall Street pulling off thir latest scam rather than like people responsible for safety of passengers

What king of management allows this culture to develop?

A company in a huge mess and totally out of control

Needs a huge shake up from top to bottom

Mullenburg should have been replaced with an external CEO brought in to entirely change the culture

(That may well still need to happen regardless)



Willie Walsh would give Boeing the kick up the backside it needs.

LOL, a guy who has drank so much of Boeing's kool-Aid that he ordered 200 MAXes after the grounding!
 
ArjenterAvest
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:50 am

planecane wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Interested wrote:



They knew the plane was unsafe.


They were talking about simulators, not the plane. There appears to have been discord about the simulator contractor for MAX simulators not being a high quality vendor. This message exchange seems to be about putting your family on a plane when the pilots were trained on a MAX simulator.

With regards to these messages in general, while they paint a very poor picture some of the wording contained in them is typical of general venting and complaining done in a large, corporate engineering environment. The engineers are always complaining about management, marketing and program management.

The message do reveal that there was a clear intent to minimize MCAS so that it wouldn't trigger training requirements. It doesn't seem like the discussions were based around MCAS failure scenarios. It seems more that they were concerned that regulators would require training flying with MCAS operating as intended.

It also should be noted that the "bad" email and message exchanges were very few messages compared with the tens or hundreds of thousands of messages that went around throughout the program. The concerning ones to me are the messages related to "tricking" the regulators. Those are the ones that need to be investigated seriously as a regulator can not possibly do their job if a manufacturer is setting out to mislead them intentionally.

Messages like the "clowns/monkeys" one are sensational but far less concerning because that type of talk is typical of what you will get from some engineers in an organization like Boeing. I'm sure that if you went through the messages of Airbus (or Lockheed or SpaceX etc.) you will find some messages expressing similar sentiments. In contrast, I would not expect most manufacturers to be intentionally trying to fool the regulators.
I doubt you will find any 'clowns/monkeys' messages within Airbus. As well apparently your expectation of not intentionally trying to fool regulators seems to be a false expectation in this case.
 
Agrajag
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:56 am

P1aneMad wrote:
Agrajag wrote:
Interested wrote:
They are talking like slimy traders on The Wolf Of Wall Street pulling off thir latest scam rather than like people responsible for safety of passengers

What king of management allows this culture to develop?

A company in a huge mess and totally out of control

Needs a huge shake up from top to bottom

Mullenburg should have been replaced with an external CEO brought in to entirely change the culture

(That may well still need to happen regardless)



Willie Walsh would give Boeing the kick up the backside it needs.

LOL, a guy who has drank so much of Boeing's kool-Aid that he ordered 200 MAXes after the grounding!


Im convinced thats leverage for dealings with Airbus.
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
Ertro
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:05 pm

planecane wrote:
Thy were talking about simulators, not the plane. There appears to have been discord about the simulator contractor for MAX simulators not being a high quality vendor. This message exchange seems to be about putting your family on a plane when the pilots were trained on a MAX simulator.


Simulators are one part of the overall package. If the overall package does not work and Boeing knows it then the plane is unsafe and the plane should be grounded if the engineers don't trust to put their own family members on the plane.

Whether the part that fails to perform its job in the system is such that takes into the skies or whether the part stays on the ground makes zero difference. It does not matter whether it is simulators or wingspars or engines which are bought from not-a-high-quality-vendor.

Similarly if the paper documentation given to the pilots has errors in them because the printing was bought from not-high-quality-printshop it means that the plane is unsafe and should not fly if the engineers that inspect the paper manuals think that they would not put their familymembers on the plane flown by pilots that have to rely on these failing manuals.

The employees appear to discuss instances in which the company concealed such problems from the F.A.A. during the regulator’s certification of the simulators, which were used in the development of the Max, as well as in training for pilots who had not previously flown a 737.


In light of this quote it is unfair to put the blame on the simulator vendor. If Boeing engineers inspect the simulator and conceal the problems they found in them from FAA those problems are now Boeings problems directly. It is Boeing that is responsible of all the problems that they found in the simulators and pushed the simulators forward to be used as a part of the overall system package to fly people other than the Boeing engineers familymembers who know to stay clear.
 
PavlovsDog
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:22 pm

Boeing needs to:

1. Split the commercial division out as a separate company - the corrupt and cynical culture of military contracting seems to have permeated the organization
2. Move the commercial division HQ back to Seattle and closer to the core of the business - the guys in suits in Chicago seem to be very distance from the engineers and assembly line people in Seattle
3. Appoint someone with an engineering background as CEO - show that the are not just greedy bastards gunning for short-term profit but product and safety centered.
4. bite the bullet on the 737 MAX and dust off the clean sheet design - airlines and the public are justifiably very concerned about the safety of the MAX and now Boeing products in general. Fixing a hardware problem with bad software is bad engineering and, as has become very evident now, bad business.
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:26 pm

Lmao, funny that the A320NEO may turn out to be a more expensive plane for Boeing than it ever will be for Airbus
 
pasen
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:31 pm

Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:40 pm

pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.
very interesting indeed! Finally we see the real reasons behind the huge mess.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:45 pm

ArjenterAvest wrote:
planecane wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:


They were talking about simulators, not the plane. There appears to have been discord about the simulator contractor for MAX simulators not being a high quality vendor. This message exchange seems to be about putting your family on a plane when the pilots were trained on a MAX simulator.

With regards to these messages in general, while they paint a very poor picture some of the wording contained in them is typical of general venting and complaining done in a large, corporate engineering environment. The engineers are always complaining about management, marketing and program management.

The message do reveal that there was a clear intent to minimize MCAS so that it wouldn't trigger training requirements. It doesn't seem like the discussions were based around MCAS failure scenarios. It seems more that they were concerned that regulators would require training flying with MCAS operating as intended.

It also should be noted that the "bad" email and message exchanges were very few messages compared with the tens or hundreds of thousands of messages that went around throughout the program. The concerning ones to me are the messages related to "tricking" the regulators. Those are the ones that need to be investigated seriously as a regulator can not possibly do their job if a manufacturer is setting out to mislead them intentionally.

Messages like the "clowns/monkeys" one are sensational but far less concerning because that type of talk is typical of what you will get from some engineers in an organization like Boeing. I'm sure that if you went through the messages of Airbus (or Lockheed or SpaceX etc.) you will find some messages expressing similar sentiments. In contrast, I would not expect most manufacturers to be intentionally trying to fool the regulators.
I doubt you will find any 'clowns/monkeys' messages within Airbus. As well apparently your expectation of not intentionally trying to fool regulators seems to be a false expectation in this case.


First, I can absolutely guarantee you that you will find similar messages (although possibly in French) if you searched all internal Airbus communications. You very much misunderstood by comment about misleading regulators. My point was that I would not expect to find those types of messages as "standard" communication at other companies which is why those messages concern me but the "clowns/monkeys" type messages do not.
 
AeroplaneFreak
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:47 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
LOL, a guy who has drank so much of Boeing's kool-Aid that he ordered 200 MAXes after the grounding!


Hmm, maybe because by the time they arrive the MAX will have been back in service for well over a year.

Also who cares about drinking Kool-Aid? That product has never been involved with anything bad, I think you may be referring to Flavor Aid which was used during the Jonestown massacre.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:49 pm

The disclosure of internal e-mails and other communications at Boeing as to the 737MAX from US Congressional committee investigations is showing a very bad picture about the culture at Boeing and the US government. This has been a problem developing for decades from the massive corporate and government corruption here in the USA with significant deregulation and pressure to constantly keep the stock price up short term. Recall how the Comet engineering problems led to major destruction of the UK's aircraft industry.

Like with the USA based carmakers Chrysler and GM with their bailouts in 2008-2009, our politicians cannot have Boeing collapse. Boeing is 'too big to fail' in parts due to it being the leading exporter in the USA, the knock on affects to its vendors like Spirit, potential job losses, the need to keep one of the biggest military contractors in business, the many 1000's of top paying jobs and jobs in their communities. Although some parts of the 737MAX and other model civilian aircraft of Boeing are made outside the USA, they too will have political pressure on them to deal with this potential engineering problem.

Problem is how to go forward with the absolute priority of producing a safe aircraft. It will take anywhere from 6-8 years and likely $6-8 Billion to create a new, 'clean sheet' 737 replacement model and pass regulations likely to be tightened up.
 
AeroplaneFreak
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:49 pm

pasen wrote:
I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.


Not really, don't forget the crew the previous day handled the same situation quite differently.
 
sphealey
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:00 pm

I doubt you will find any 'clowns/monkeys' messages within Airbus. As well apparently your expectation of not intentionally trying to fool regulators seems to be a false expectation in this case.


Agreed: the French are much more subtle about sticking knives into their corporate opponents, and the French language is much better suited than US English for such activity. Although some Brits do a decent job of it with the Queen's English.
 
AndyW35
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:02 pm

I find this statement from an internal email from a technical pilot very disheartening in regard to the culture of Boeing

""I want to stress the importance of holding firm that there will not be any type of simulator training required to transition from NG to Max," Boeing's 737 chief technical pilot at the time, Mark Forkner, said in a March 2017 email.

"Boeing will not allow that to happen. We'll go face to face with any regulator who tries to make that a requirement.""

From

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51058929

It means that the technical pilots are siding with the bean counters and not the engineers. It would be interesting to know how far the company profits over safety culture went up the chain of people getting this new aircraft ready to fly? What did the test pilots say at the time? They were the ones at the sharp end.

One year on we have 300+ dead people, a complete overhaul of the software to get it shipshape and still the need for pilot simulator training.

It just shows how far Boeing went off the rails to keep the financial investor side happy. Customers and workers need to come first. Do that and the shareholders will be happy.

This is not a biased dig at Boeing, I don't have any bias and admire aircraft manufacturers for what they do. Boeing did the Queen of the Skies, time for them to sort the company out and make a new one. Engineers leading the way. Not the cost counters....
 
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glideslope
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:06 pm

sphealey wrote:
Agreed: the French are much more subtle about sticking knives into their corporate opponents, and the French language is much better suited than US English for such activity. Although some Brits do a decent job of it with the Queen's English.


God Save the Queen. :checkeredflag:
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:06 pm

Agrajag wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Agrajag wrote:


Willie Walsh would give Boeing the kick up the backside it needs.

LOL, a guy who has drank so much of Boeing's kool-Aid that he ordered 200 MAXes after the grounding!


Im convinced thats leverage for dealings with Airbus.

Boeing has handed Airbus all the leverage of the world regarding single isles.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:23 pm

planecane wrote:
Agrajag wrote:
There are those who wish to imply, even now, that fundamentally it is a safe plane and that it is substandard piloting that is to blame. Mind you, they have been less prevalent since DM got the push. Perhaps the paychecks from Boeing PR agents dried up with the change in management? Shurly shome mishtake??


There were very few, if any posters that ever said MCAS as implemented was a good design. What many (including myself) suggested is that the failure produced by MCAS could have been mitigated by the pilots (especially the ET crew due to being informed of the failure mode by the EAD).

It is not mutually exclusive to have a flawed design but also poorly trained/skilled pilots which allowed the failure produced by the flawed design to lead to crashes. MCAS didn't cause the stabilizer to break off and leave the pilots with no possibility of recovery.

If those who share my opinions are supposed to be being paid then I'd like to know who to contact at Boeing to receive my checks which are very far in arrears at this point. I don't know about others but I have posted these opinions far less often because of two reasons. First, I don't see a need to keep repeating myself and second I feel like I am beating my head against a wall against the posters that feel that dead pilots can not possibly be criticized at all.


Great post and I totally agree. Boeing's crap design does not negate the fact that Lionair and ET's training is about as crap as well and you can throw Lionair maintenance in there too.

Let's not forget the FAA either. The Boeing employees were right to call them Monkey's - they did not do their Job either.

I'm waiting on my check as well.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:29 pm

Well this data dump made few things clear.

-Regulators were not trying to avoid additional training, as peddled thousands of times here.
-Employees were not zombies, they were aware of the facts and consequences, frustrated with the happenings, didn't know how to express their feelings. Locker room trash talk and water cooler sarcasm prevailed.
-Disproves the theory MAX issues were never brought to the attention of top management by few rouge employees.
-Proves this is a top-down culture issue.
All posts are just opinions.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:29 pm

pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.


You don't need a MAX simulator to learn how to run a Runaway Trim NNC.
 
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speedygonzales
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:39 pm

morrisond wrote:
You don't need a MAX simulator to learn how to run a Runaway Trim NNC.

Jeez.... How many times do you need to be told that the runaway trim checklist does not cover MCAS malfunction? :banghead:
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:46 pm

Interested wrote:
“If we emphasize MCAS is a new function there may be a greater certification and training impact. Treat as addition to Speed Trim.”


That's what I said it looked like from waaaayyyyyyy back in the early Lion Air threads - as soon as MCAS was revealed.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:50 pm

blrsea wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Or how about this one:

- In a instant messaging exchange on Feb. 8, 2018 - when the plane was in the air and eight months before the first crash, an employee asks another: “Would you put your family on a MAX simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t”.

The second employee responds: “No”.


They knew the plane was unsafe.


I think this particular exchange is taken out of context by many people. The two employees are talking about the MAX simulators, not the plane. The person clearly says whether they would trust a pilot trained on that simulator.


But that still means that any MAX piloted by anyone trained on a MAX simulator is "unsafe"... as well as bringing the whole MAX pilot training into question... Oops, I just realised I squashed the one thing all those apologists were blaming on the airlines! Ha ha!
Last edited by SomebodyInTLS on Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:50 pm

As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:52 pm

glideslope wrote:
sphealey wrote:
Agreed: the French are much more subtle about sticking knives into their corporate opponents, and the French language is much better suited than US English for such activity. Although some Brits do a decent job of it with the Queen's English.


God Save the Queen. :checkeredflag:

I see LGW mentioned quite a bit in these documents.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:57 pm

speedygonzales wrote:
morrisond wrote:
You don't need a MAX simulator to learn how to run a Runaway Trim NNC.

Jeez.... How many times do you need to be told that the runaway trim checklist does not cover MCAS malfunction? :banghead:


And how many times do you need to be told by 737MAX qualified pilots and check airmen that it does?
 
Agrajag
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:09 pm

morrisond wrote:
planecane wrote:
Agrajag wrote:
There are those who wish to imply, even now, that fundamentally it is a safe plane and that it is substandard piloting that is to blame. Mind you, they have been less prevalent since DM got the push. Perhaps the paychecks from Boeing PR agents dried up with the change in management? Shurly shome mishtake??


There were very few, if any posters that ever said MCAS as implemented was a good design. What many (including myself) suggested is that the failure produced by MCAS could have been mitigated by the pilots (especially the ET crew due to being informed of the failure mode by the EAD).

It is not mutually exclusive to have a flawed design but also poorly trained/skilled pilots which allowed the failure produced by the flawed design to lead to crashes. MCAS didn't cause the stabilizer to break off and leave the pilots with no possibility of recovery.

If those who share my opinions are supposed to be being paid then I'd like to know who to contact at Boeing to receive my checks which are very far in arrears at this point. I don't know about others but I have posted these opinions far less often because of two reasons. First, I don't see a need to keep repeating myself and second I feel like I am beating my head against a wall against the posters that feel that dead pilots can not possibly be criticized at all.


Great post and I totally agree. Boeing's crap design does not negate the fact that Lionair and ET's training is about as crap as well and you can throw Lionair maintenance in there too.

Let's not forget the FAA either. The Boeing employees were right to call them Monkey's - they did not do their Job either.

I'm waiting on my check as well.


Fortunately what has been said before is there to be seen in the thread history. We all know, no matter more recent attempts to be revisionist.

Pretty shameful.

It is hoped that the boil and has now well and truely been lanced and lessons have been learnt, however, im not optimistic of such.
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
AndyW35
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:54 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:13 pm

morrisond wrote:
pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.


You don't need a MAX simulator to learn how to run a Runaway Trim NNC.


I think the issue here is that this was a poorly thought out automated safety feature. An automated safety feature should be :-

1. Automated.

2. Make the plane more safe.


The problem is that if it actually requires manual pilot intervention using rules that were designed for a runaway trim in certain circumstance. This is not a standard runaway trim though.

Can't you see the red flags? Boeing seems to have. An automated safety feature should not be a test of the pilot's know-how whilst flying.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:27 pm

speedygonzales wrote:
morrisond wrote:
You don't need a MAX simulator to learn how to run a Runaway Trim NNC.

Jeez.... How many times do you need to be told that the runaway trim checklist does not cover MCAS malfunction? :banghead:


Yes it does - that is ET's recommended procedure if presented with MCAS symptoms as part of there training manuals and cockpit procedures in the ET Preliminary Crash report.
 
Adipocere
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:32 pm

After reading these articles, I don’t understand why Boeing’s engineers are treated like anointed saints. They seems just as tainted as anyone else because they remained silent and chose to keep their jobs over going public with the rotten coverups and possibly saving 349 lives. I surely hope that engineers as well as management types get sacked over this debacle. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Boeing’s way of ensuring this doesn’t happen again is to change their email retention policy to 30 days or something to thwart future discoveries after a 777X or two go down.
Last edited by Adipocere on Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2662
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:33 pm

AndyW35 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.


You don't need a MAX simulator to learn how to run a Runaway Trim NNC.


I think the issue here is that this was a poorly thought out automated safety feature. An automated safety feature should be :-

1. Automated.

2. Make the plane more safe.


The problem is that if it actually requires manual pilot intervention using rules that were designed for a runaway trim in certain circumstance. This is not a standard runaway trim though.

Can't you see the red flags? Boeing seems to have. An automated safety feature should not be a test of the pilot's know-how whilst flying.


MCAS was totally crappily designed - no one is debating that. But the Counter to that was not difficult and even a below average pilot should have been able to handle it by running an easy procedure that they should all have known cold and not have to refer to documentation especially after Lionair.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:36 pm

oschkosch wrote:
pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.
very interesting indeed! Finally we see the real reasons behind the huge mess.

Yes, and this new released material probably explain the sudden disappear one some Boeing's notable support loops on this forum regarding this subject...
Or not !
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:43 pm

Adipocere wrote:
After reading these articles, I don’t understand why Boeing’s engineers are treated like anointed saints. They seems just as tainted as anyone else because they remained silent and chose to keep their jobs over going public with the rotten coverups and possibly saving 349 lives. I surely hope that engineers as well as management types get sacked over this debacle. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Boeing’s way of ensuring this doesn’t happen again is to change their email retention policy to 30 days or something to thwart future discoveries after a 777X or two go down.


I have not seen an awful lot of support on this forum for any of the whistleblowers who have come forward regarding other safety relevant topics in recent months.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:46 pm

Wow. Just wow.

This whole thing reeks of unprofessionalism.

And it clearly shows Boeing employees themselves don't trust the Frankenstein monster they created. To such a degree some don't believe God would forgive them for what they did.

No wonder the FAA and other regulators have become very scrupulous.

I don't have any faith left in Boeing. None.
 
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PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:49 pm

AndyW35 wrote:
I find this statement from an internal email from a technical pilot very disheartening in regard to the culture of Boeing

""I want to stress the importance of holding firm that there will not be any type of simulator training required to transition from NG to Max," Boeing's 737 chief technical pilot at the time, Mark Forkner, said in a March 2017 email.

"Boeing will not allow that to happen. We'll go face to face with any regulator who tries to make that a requirement.""

From

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51058929

Boeing was very actively trying to find any possible vulnerabilities in the FAA and the certification process to reach the safety impossible goal to fly the MCAS on a non redundant flight computer architecture without proper MCAS failure pilots training. Criminal case now look not too far away...
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
morrisond
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:50 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.
very interesting indeed! Finally we see the real reasons behind the huge mess.

Yes, and this new released material probably explain the sudden disappear one some Boeing's notable support loops on this forum regarding this subject...
Or not !


E-Transfer came through for a few of us this morning.

But yes the material is brutal - and shows how bad the relationship between Boeing and the FAA is/hopefully was. A total lack of respect from Boeing's side - but it might have been justified given how ineffective the FAA has proven to be - it seems like it has just grown into another Dis-functional Government Bureaucracy.

We don't know how many things the FAA was pushing on Boeing that had zero impact on Safety (spelling/formatting mistakes on documents) vs actual helpful direction on how to make things safer that drove the Boeing engineers crazy and led them to write such terrible things.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2662
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:52 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
AndyW35 wrote:
I find this statement from an internal email from a technical pilot very disheartening in regard to the culture of Boeing

""I want to stress the importance of holding firm that there will not be any type of simulator training required to transition from NG to Max," Boeing's 737 chief technical pilot at the time, Mark Forkner, said in a March 2017 email.

"Boeing will not allow that to happen. We'll go face to face with any regulator who tries to make that a requirement.""

From

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51058929

Boeing was very actively trying to find any possible vulnerabilities in the FAA and the certification process to reach the safety impossible goal to fly the MCAS on a non redundant flight computer architecture without proper MCAS failure pilots training. Criminal case now look not too far away...


Don't worry I believe there are quite a few law suits already. In the end though all that will happen is the lawyers will grow rich.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 678
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:54 pm

PavlovsDog wrote:
Boeing needs to:

1. Split the commercial division out as a separate company - the corrupt and cynical culture of military contracting seems to have permeated the organization
2. Move the commercial division HQ back to Seattle and closer to the core of the business - the guys in suits in Chicago seem to be very distance from the engineers and assembly line people in Seattle
3. Appoint someone with an engineering background as CEO - show that the are not just greedy bastards gunning for short-term profit but product and safety centered.
4. bite the bullet on the 737 MAX and dust off the clean sheet design - airlines and the public are justifiably very concerned about the safety of the MAX and now Boeing products in general. Fixing a hardware problem with bad software is bad engineering and, as has become very evident now, bad business.


1. Might be a good idea.
2. No, if you are going to move it move it to SC, or even LA or Texas and get a bunch of new blood.
3. No, the last CEO was exactly that guy a career engineer with a safety background that everyone here said Boeing needed. The next CEO maybe needs to come from outside the industry completely.
4. I am leaning towards this line of thinking myself, its a huge bullet though.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:55 pm

morrisond wrote:
AndyW35 wrote:
morrisond wrote:

You don't need a MAX simulator to learn how to run a Runaway Trim NNC.


I think the issue here is that this was a poorly thought out automated safety feature. An automated safety feature should be :-

1. Automated.

2. Make the plane more safe.


The problem is that if it actually requires manual pilot intervention using rules that were designed for a runaway trim in certain circumstance. This is not a standard runaway trim though.

Can't you see the red flags? Boeing seems to have. An automated safety feature should not be a test of the pilot's know-how whilst flying.


MCAS was totally crappily designed - no one is debating that. But the Counter to that was not difficult and even a below average pilot should have been able to handle it by running an easy procedure that they should all have known cold and not have to refer to documentation especially after Lionair.

KNSC, NTSB, FAA, Boeing and Congress Transport Committee, not to mention numerous credible experts and commentators, have all concluded otherwise and are on record.

You are on the wrong side of history and reality.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5260
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:58 pm

morrisond wrote:
MCAS was totally crappily designed - no one is debating that. But the Counter to that was not difficult and even a below average pilot should have been able to handle it by running an easy procedure that they should all have known cold and not have to refer to documentation especially after Lionair.


No.
For the millionth time, no, no, no. Just no.

It is not a straightforward failure, not straightforward to identify, confusing, overwhelming, not easy to handle, extremely time sensitive, not trained in the sim or in any adequate fashion, not solved by an 'easy procedure'.
None of these pilots were 'below average' and there is no indication that even a half-decent proportion of crews subjected to this scenario would have saved the day.

Just stop with this nonsense already and leave it to the industry professionals and those who actually know anything about flying an airliner.

Adipocere wrote:
After reading these articles, I don’t understand why Boeing’s engineers are treated like anointed saints. They seems just as tainted as anyone else because they remained silent and chose to keep their jobs over going public with the rotten coverups and possibly saving 349 lives. I surely hope that engineers as well as management types get sacked over this debacle. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Boeing’s way of ensuring this doesn’t happen again is to change their email retention policy to 30 days or something to thwart future discoveries after a 777X or two go down.


So their choice would be to either quit or be sacked?
Telling people they should have taken the high road is always easy with the benefit of hindsight. I'd love to see them, or anyone, trying to explain to their wives and families that they quit a well-paid and secure job because they disagree with how the company makes decisions.
That system was born off a deficient safety culture which distilled from the top down. The pressure to push a faulty design through did not come from dozens upon dozens of engineers who suddenly decided they didn't want to do their jobs correctly, but rather from a much smaller group of people at the top who have no clue how an airplane flies and were desperate to deliver on rosy promises they had already made to customers.

What's saddening is that the latest reaction from Boeing after the recent leaks seems to indicate that they have no desire to change anything. They just want to find scapegoats within the rank and crack down on internal communication to prevent further damning leaks... This, of course, will not change anything until the people in charge of the executive management of the company either fall on their sword (visibly unlikely, give the deflection and denial) or are replaced.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:59 pm

morrisond wrote:
planecane wrote:
Agrajag wrote:
There are those who wish to imply, even now, that fundamentally it is a safe plane and that it is substandard piloting that is to blame. Mind you, they have been less prevalent since DM got the push. Perhaps the paychecks from Boeing PR agents dried up with the change in management? Shurly shome mishtake??


There were very few, if any posters that ever said MCAS as implemented was a good design. What many (including myself) suggested is that the failure produced by MCAS could have been mitigated by the pilots (especially the ET crew due to being informed of the failure mode by the EAD).

It is not mutually exclusive to have a flawed design but also poorly trained/skilled pilots which allowed the failure produced by the flawed design to lead to crashes. MCAS didn't cause the stabilizer to break off and leave the pilots with no possibility of recovery.

If those who share my opinions are supposed to be being paid then I'd like to know who to contact at Boeing to receive my checks which are very far in arrears at this point. I don't know about others but I have posted these opinions far less often because of two reasons. First, I don't see a need to keep repeating myself and second I feel like I am beating my head against a wall against the posters that feel that dead pilots can not possibly be criticized at all.


Great post and I totally agree. Boeing's crap design does not negate the fact that Lionair and ET's training is about as crap as well and you can throw Lionair maintenance in there too

Let's not forget the FAA either. The Boeing employees were right to call them Monkey's - they did not do their Job either.

I'm waiting on my check as well.


Lion air wanted spezial MAX training Boeing blew them off. Boeing actively discouraged customers from training their pilots. Are you still trying to blame the customer and their pilots for the mess? It was known at Boeing that the MAX was unsafe. Boeing employees talking about they would not put their family on that airplane.

What negates the fact that Boeing actively tried to reduce pilot training to save cost, to be able to say our frame does not need training for pilots?
Last edited by mjoelnir on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8269
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:59 pm

morrisond wrote:
...
We don't know how many things the FAA was pushing on Boeing that had zero impact on Safety (spelling/formatting mistakes on documents) vs actual helpful direction on how to make things safer that drove the Boeing engineers crazy and led them to write such terrible things.


So now hiding behind first-world bureaucracy. Documents show Boeing employees were dealing with unreliable airspeed in Feb '13. Dec '18 a plane crashed with same message. If management's goal was to make it safer, there were 5 years. BTW, there are thousands of non-tech employees to fix typos.

Clearly shows too much time has been spent shaming regulators among other things. Probably 100 lines of additional code to MCAS would have saved 340 lives without any hardware changes. No system will ever get perfect hardware design, but a lot can be achieved within software. Just need some innovation.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ZKCIF
Posts: 408
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:02 pm

https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/9/21059 ... ator-crash
check page 19 of the letters (20 February 2017; 12:22). I won't quote. Just read for yourselves, folks. If this letter is not fake, I just don't know what to say

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