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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:45 pm

dc855 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I find people's willingness to re-fight this battle to be stunning.

It should be clear by now that different people have different ways of evaluating events.

Both FAA and Boeing have testified to Congress that MCAS put too much workload on the pilots. To me, such a statement opens questions of how Boeing evaluated the system and what Boeing expected of pilots. To others any discussion of such shifts blame away from Boeing and is "blaming the pilots".

To me, the JT crash report opens questions about how JT trains its pilots and how they would handle other kinds of failures that would require them to follow check lists correctly. To others any discussion of such shifts blame away from Boeing and is "blaming the pilots".

We could talk about this some more, but I doubt it'd shift anyone's position much if at all.


I agree with this. For JT they had no idea what MCAS was and Boeing made too many assumptions on how Pilot's would react. They did put too much workload on them.

However for ET - I still can't believe that any pilot would not have recognized it as an MCAS failure by that point and known the procedure they needed to know Cold to save the aircraft. The only plausible explanation I could believe is that they were never provided with it.

Why is that viewpoint so hard to understand?


I see your viewpoint but for me the blame lies entirely with the company that sold a dangerous machine to the airlines. Yes the ET pilots might perhaps been able to do a better job but they should never ever have been put in this situation. There are millions of pilots in the world of varying quality. The key thing is to engineer the equipment so that even the "least capable" pilots can handle it safely (not saying the ET ones were). Boeing obviously did not (for bad reasons!) and there lies the entirety of the blame.


So if there was a normal "Runaway Trim Failure" due to equipment failure they should not be expected to handle this either?

Great design is a noble goal - but Pilots need to have some basic skills as mechanical parts can fail as well.
 
snasteve
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:45 pm

Wow. This looks like criminal negligence and if this is not than what exactly is?
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:47 pm

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think it could get much worse.
...
To me that would be a smoking gun, this is just bad PR, especially with regard to dealing with the regulators.


But how about this doozie:
"Amazing what a brown envelope can achieve - it isn't anywhere near as good as it would appear to be reading the report. The FAA were neither thorough nor demanding and failed to write up many issues."

I have my own pretty shocking interpretation of what this appears to mean. I'd love to hear the thoughts of others.


That sounds bad. Wow.

What it sounds like is money being transferred under the table.

In other words - corruption.

I'm sure the DOJ will be interested in this.
 
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sergegva
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:53 pm

pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.


There is also this e-mail:

"I am concerned that if (censored, but it should be Lion Air) chooses to require a MAX simulator for its pilots beyond what all other regulators are requiring that it will be creating a difficult and unnecessary training burden for your airline, as well as potentially establish a precedent in your region for other MAX customers".
Another mail follows with arguments to dissuade them from asking for a simulator, as "Rather than require a simulator event, you may want to consider what other airlines have thought about (...). I believe, based on other operator imputs, that you will find any of these solutions to be acceptable. A simulator training requirement would be quite burdensome to your operation"

A few months ago, people wondered here why there were so few, if any, 737 MAX simulators available. Now we understand why. And I'll pass on the condescending tone used towards this airline...

(https://seekingalpha.com/article/431611 ... ed-737-max , page 33)

EDIT: Page 34 is worse.
Last edited by sergegva on Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:53 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

Why don't you tell us what 'these alarms' are, or what that' simple procedure' is.
Maybe from there it might be possible to explain to you why you simply are unable to understand why you are so wrong.


Read pages 28 to 33 in here https://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploa ... ET-AVJ.pdf

It says to run the Runaway Trim NNC which is in there as well - where it says to specifically disengage Autothrottle.

These are the documents ET says all it's pilots had - to be fair to the pilots I don't think they did.

Remember that reality switch? you're still switched to off. Its a simple procedure and you are not under stress, just turn it to on.

Pilots were overwhelmed dear boy. Read the NTSB report and the Human Factors expert testimony to Congress, listen to Sullenberger, go research the behaviours that can be experienced in an overwhelming life/death situation.


I notice that no matter how many times I post ET's own procedures nobody is debating those - but just attacking me or trying to change the channel.

I agree Lionair was totally overwhelmed - but ET should not have been - it was a textbook MCAS failure as described in the ET training/procedure documentation.

If pilots are absolved from the responsibility of having to understand and follow something like that then you have to look at every emergency procedure on every commercial aircraft and potentially change the certification basis for all of them.
 
dc855
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:54 pm

morrisond wrote:
dc855 wrote:
morrisond wrote:

I agree with this. For JT they had no idea what MCAS was and Boeing made too many assumptions on how Pilot's would react. They did put too much workload on them.

However for ET - I still can't believe that any pilot would not have recognized it as an MCAS failure by that point and known the procedure they needed to know Cold to save the aircraft. The only plausible explanation I could believe is that they were never provided with it.

Why is that viewpoint so hard to understand?


I see your viewpoint but for me the blame lies entirely with the company that sold a dangerous machine to the airlines. Yes the ET pilots might perhaps been able to do a better job but they should never ever have been put in this situation. There are millions of pilots in the world of varying quality. The key thing is to engineer the equipment so that even the "least capable" pilots can handle it safely (not saying the ET ones were). Boeing obviously did not (for bad reasons!) and there lies the entirety of the blame.


So if there was a normal "Runaway Trim Failure" due to equipment failure they should not be expected to handle this either?

Great design is a noble goal - but Pilots need to have some basic skills as mechanical parts can fail as well.


The difference here lies in these words you use: "equipment failure". Obviously we all want capable pilots that can deal with malfunctions in a normally perfectly safe equipment. With the MAX the situation is different as the airplane itself was inherently unsafe due to choices made in the design process. Mistakes that never should have been made and were made for bad reasons. That is all on Boeing.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
I do wonder about the effort being spent on getting the right posture with regulators and customers vs the effort spent in engineering


If I have to hazard a guess, the Bottom Dollar Simulator vendor was not up to task. Boeing panicked and went on a damage control mission by peddling "no-training" mantra.

I sincerely think Boeing should stop screwing customers,regulators, everyone else and itself to save suppliers. This started with 787 and has to stop for its own good.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm

phollingsworth wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
phollingsworth wrote:

They do for trimmed aircraft and specific mis-trim conditions (three-second movement of the longitudinal trim system at its normal rate for the particular flight condition with no aerodynamic load). This rule has been around since at least 1978. Outside of this just being able to retrim while holding the yoke back isn't specifically called for, FAR 25.255(f), hence the past use of the roller-coaster manoeuvre. Given the increased trim rates of MCAS was this still possible?

Not in all the new cases open by the MCAS on the 737-8/9 MAX: at some points the pilots loss the longitudinal control and this was actively hidden in the safety assessment by using obsolete assumptions that was not asserted and too later found wrong on that aircraft design.


The question is, given the MCAS rates would this have occurred in 3 seconds of MCAS activation from a trimmed condition? If not then the regulations have little to say. Maybe they should. If it does and was 'actively' hidden then there are other issues.

The 3 seconds was part of the obsolete and wrong assumption. The MCAS was designed to trim nose down as long a 9 seconds, and as such was subject to safety critical requirements imposing redundant sensors, redundant flight computers, and redundant actuators.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
ZKCIF
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:00 pm

https://seekingalpha.com/article/431611 ... ed-737-max
the email on page 34 was signed by chief technical pilot.
yep, selling one's soul
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:05 pm

Forget all the detail

How could you possibly trust Boeing on anything right now?

Their trust rating with their customers must be at Zero right now??
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:08 pm

Interesting on how https://www.scribd.com/document/4423465 ... =affiliate fetched via the 2nd link on The Verge page https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/9/21059 ... ator-crash captures the FAA itself using the "jedi mind trick" lingo and Boeing asking to get the same treatment as "Brand A" was given with regard to not mentioning some unspecified feature ( email of Feb 9 2018 8:52 AM and 8:48 AM ).
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:11 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The failure modes they faced on ET302 were exactly as described in the ET training/procedure documentation in the ET preliminary report. - It was simple - if you see these alarms - do this.

Stab trim cutout switch and use trim wheels, and this is exactly what ET302 did.


You are forgetting disengage Auto Throttle and control your airspeed manually.

Please read the page 39 and 40 of this https://seekingalpha.com/article/4316117-are-disturbing-internal-emails-boeing-just-released-737-max
Boeing ACTIVELY rejected synthetic airspeed asked by operators !!!! :crazy:
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:20 pm

StTim wrote:
morrisond wrote:
StTim wrote:

I do not disagree that there were failures other than the MAX itself. Rarely is there an accident where there isn't.

This being the grounding thread then every time you bring up these issues you imply they are part of the grounding - they are not. They will be in the final accident reports for all to see.

If you want to discuss pilot training etc why not open a new thread?


Because this is also now the General Discussion thread. There is a separate news thread.


It is a general discussion about the grounding - not pilot competency, training, maintenance et al.



Excellent idea, Mr. Morrisond should open up an own thread dedicated to 737 max pilot training, third world pilot issues on the max and other related stuff. That would definitely help a lot!
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:20 pm

morrisond wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Read pages 28 to 33 in here https://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploa ... ET-AVJ.pdf

It says to run the Runaway Trim NNC which is in there as well - where it says to specifically disengage Autothrottle.

These are the documents ET says all it's pilots had - to be fair to the pilots I don't think they did.

Remember that reality switch? you're still switched to off. Its a simple procedure and you are not under stress, just turn it to on.

Pilots were overwhelmed dear boy. Read the NTSB report and the Human Factors expert testimony to Congress, listen to Sullenberger, go research the behaviours that can be experienced in an overwhelming life/death situation.


I notice that no matter how many times I post ET's own procedures nobody is debating those - but just attacking me or trying to change the channel.

I agree Lionair was totally overwhelmed - but ET should not have been - it was a textbook MCAS failure as described in the ET training/procedure documentation.

If pilots are absolved from the responsibility of having to understand and follow something like that then you have to look at every emergency procedure on every commercial aircraft and potentially change the certification basis for all of them.

Pilots were overwhelmed. Go do the research.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:22 pm

[url][/url]
Interested wrote:
Forget all the detail

How could you possibly trust Boeing on anything right now?

Their trust rating with their customers must be at Zero right now??

Boeing should be lucky that most of their customers are also big business who are also known to try to cut cost as much as they can.

They won't be too pleased, but not as shocked as some people are here.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:27 pm

Socking 6/7/2013 minute meeting about MCAS that set the whole strategy to hide it in the fear of "training impact" !
Page 93 https://seekingalpha.com/article/4316117-are-disturbing-internal-emails-boeing-just-released-737-max
Really, crash like JT610 and ET302 was just a matter of time.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
Planetalk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:30 pm

morrisond wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Read pages 28 to 33 in here https://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploa ... ET-AVJ.pdf

It says to run the Runaway Trim NNC which is in there as well - where it says to specifically disengage Autothrottle.

These are the documents ET says all it's pilots had - to be fair to the pilots I don't think they did.

Remember that reality switch? you're still switched to off. Its a simple procedure and you are not under stress, just turn it to on.

Pilots were overwhelmed dear boy. Read the NTSB report and the Human Factors expert testimony to Congress, listen to Sullenberger, go research the behaviours that can be experienced in an overwhelming life/death situation.


I notice that no matter how many times I post ET's own procedures nobody is debating those - but just attacking me or trying to change the channel.

I agree Lionair was totally overwhelmed - but ET should not have been - it was a textbook MCAS failure as described in the ET training/procedure documentation.

If pilots are absolved from the responsibility of having to understand and follow something like that then you have to look at every emergency procedure on every commercial aircraft and potentially change the certification basis for all of them.


You seem to have a lot of information about the ET crash that isn't in the public domain. Are you able to say what your access to all this is? It'd be useful for us all to know if your repeated assertions about the airline and the pilots, stated as fact, are in fact pure conjecture.

I'm also interested in how you awarded yourself the lofty position of being able to determine that the pilots were at fault and the airlines should be grounded, contrary to the opinion of the world's aviation authorities, before the ET report has even been released?

As for your repeated mentioning of the checklist, you are aware they had multiple alarms and unreliable airspeed? Any idea what the memory items for that on takeoff are?
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:39 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
If I have to hazard a guess, the Bottom Dollar Simulator vendor was not up to task. Boeing panicked and went on a damage control mission by peddling "no-training" mantra.


It was the airlines (or some at least -- you likely can guess which ones, like the one that supposedly will be getting $1M per MAX air frame now) that insisted on no sim training for transition to the MAX. Its astonishing to me that those airlines haven't caught a lot of flak as a result of this entire incredible fiasco.
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snasteve
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:42 pm

“The language used in these communications, and some of the sentiments they express, are inconsistent with Boeing values.” —BOEING

:worried:
Last edited by snasteve on Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:47 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Socking 6/7/2013 minute meeting about MCAS that set the whole strategy to hide it in the fear of "training impact" !
Page 93 https://seekingalpha.com/article/4316117-are-disturbing-internal-emails-boeing-just-released-737-max
Really, crash like JT610 and ET302 was just a matter of time.

That assumes the MCAS 1.0 implementation also was in place, no?
I think if a competent MCAS implementation was in place such crashes would not be inevitable.
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kipfilet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:49 pm

This is looking horrible for Boeing. There are rumors that they may be spinning off the defense section to preserve the value there.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:49 pm

This series of threads is the most depressing since I've been a member of A.net… And it keeps coming…
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:53 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I do wonder about the effort being spent on getting the right posture with regulators and customers vs the effort spent in engineering


If I have to hazard a guess, the Bottom Dollar Simulator vendor was not up to task. Boeing panicked and went on a damage control mission by peddling "no-training" mantra.

I think the no training mantra is independent of the simulator implementation, they believed they needed the no sim training requirement to sell the plane to the incumbent carriers regardless of who made the sim that would be used for training new pilots and for recurring training of other pilots.

I think the 'TRU' being referred to in the email is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRU_Simul ... B_Training if we note:

In 2014, TRU was selected by Boeing for the development and supply of a 737 MAX full flight training suite, and two years later the company secured a 10-year agreement for a similar solution for the newly developed 777X.[2][3][4]

It seems like they are a young company and were facing a lot of challenges as MAX was being developed.
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SteelChair
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:01 pm

I reassert what I said several months ago. Time to stop the MAX program take a $40B charge, fire up the NG program for 4 years, and design an all new airplane. Fire most of the top management, scrap all the MAX frames and totally remake the company. Employees will need to take pay and benefit cuts. Everyone will need to pull together to make it work.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Socking 6/7/2013 minute meeting about MCAS that set the whole strategy to hide it in the fear of "training impact" !
Page 93 https://seekingalpha.com/article/4316117-are-disturbing-internal-emails-boeing-just-released-737-max
Really, crash like JT610 and ET302 was just a matter of time.

That assumes the MCAS 1.0 implementation also was in place, no?
I think if a competent MCAS implementation was in place such crashes would not be inevitable.

If it was not in place at that time, this only delay the fault at the moment it was put in place.
A competent MCAS implementation require a redundant avionic.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:08 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Socking 6/7/2013 minute meeting about MCAS that set the whole strategy to hide it in the fear of "training impact" !
Page 93 https://seekingalpha.com/article/4316117-are-disturbing-internal-emails-boeing-just-released-737-max
Really, crash like JT610 and ET302 was just a matter of time.

That assumes the MCAS 1.0 implementation also was in place, no?
I think if a competent MCAS implementation was in place such crashes would not be inevitable.

If it was not in place at that time, this only delay the fault at the moment it was put in place.
A competent MCAS implementation require a redundant avionic.

True, but the training strategy approach must have assumed a competent MCAS implementation.
The texts/emails show us that Boeing was fixated on sim implementation and training issues.
I don't see anything focusing on how MCAS was designed, implemented or tested.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:14 pm

scbriml wrote:
But how about this doozie:
"Amazing what a brown envelope can achieve - it isn't anywhere near as good as it would appear to be reading the report. The FAA were neither thorough nor demanding and failed to write up many issues."

I have my own pretty shocking interpretation of what this appears to mean. I'd love to hear the thoughts of others.

I finally found the email in the big dump.

It is a doozie if taken at face value, but it is not clear if the comment is a serious one (does the person writing it have personal knowledge of a brown envelope being passed and if so what was in it, or is he/she just being sarcastic?) and it is clear they are talking about the 777 sim that TRU was also developing, as per the title of the email and the chain it is a part of.
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oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:25 pm

Revelation wrote:
scbriml wrote:
But how about this doozie:
"Amazing what a brown envelope can achieve - it isn't anywhere near as good as it would appear to be reading the report. The FAA were neither thorough nor demanding and failed to write up many issues."

I have my own pretty shocking interpretation of what this appears to mean. I'd love to hear the thoughts of others.

I finally found the email in the big dump.

It is a doozie if taken at face value, but it is not clear if the comment is a serious one (does the person writing it have personal knowledge of a brown envelope being passed and if so what was in it, or is he/she just being sarcastic?) and it is clear they are talking about the 777 sim that TRU was also developing, as per the title of the email and the chain it is a part of.
It does smell of corruption unfortunately.

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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:30 pm

So, does anyone know what the binary controversy is? Seems it is something one group within Boeing is advocating yet getting push back on. My guess is perhaps regulator and/or customers are used to getting some or all code and/or data in source/textual form whereas Boeing is only providing it in binary/raw form?

EDIT: I've read the dump as provided by The Verge link I gave above, and would say that https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... and-emails has captured most of the more lurid content. The only stuff they didn't report was references to drinking and similar things that reflected the stresses that the people in the emails/texts were feeling.

From context I think it's a safe guess that a lot of the texts are between Mark Forkner and Patrik Gustavsson just like the ones from October ( ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/busi ... sages.html ). The 'she' they are referring to in the early emails isn't too hard to guess from context but since I'm less sure I won't name names.

After reading the entire dump, I still wonder why the focus is on these individuals involved in sim qualification and training issues, and not on people who designed, implemented or tested MCAS.

The dump was 48 + 48 + 27 pages long, there most be thousands of other pages of emails that have some impact on how MCAS became what it did become.

Also none of the email seems to be to/from corporate suite employees.

Overall I find the focus of the communications being released to be pretty strangely focused.
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:45 pm

Based on writing style, there seems to be an absence of correspondence to / from and between senior management. Were they were more careful, already deleted, or yet to be discovered?
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:47 pm

Planetalk wrote:
morrisond wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Remember that reality switch? you're still switched to off. Its a simple procedure and you are not under stress, just turn it to on.

Pilots were overwhelmed dear boy. Read the NTSB report and the Human Factors expert testimony to Congress, listen to Sullenberger, go research the behaviours that can be experienced in an overwhelming life/death situation.


I notice that no matter how many times I post ET's own procedures nobody is debating those - but just attacking me or trying to change the channel.

I agree Lionair was totally overwhelmed - but ET should not have been - it was a textbook MCAS failure as described in the ET training/procedure documentation.

If pilots are absolved from the responsibility of having to understand and follow something like that then you have to look at every emergency procedure on every commercial aircraft and potentially change the certification basis for all of them.


You seem to have a lot of information about the ET crash that isn't in the public domain. Are you able to say what your access to all this is? It'd be useful for us all to know if your repeated assertions about the airline and the pilots, stated as fact, are in fact pure conjecture.

I'm also interested in how you awarded yourself the lofty position of being able to determine that the pilots were at fault and the airlines should be grounded, contrary to the opinion of the world's aviation authorities, before the ET report has even been released?

As for your repeated mentioning of the checklist, you are aware they had multiple alarms and unreliable airspeed? Any idea what the memory items for that on takeoff are?


It's all in the public domain but again no one is reading it or commenting on it as it's so damning of ET. Read pages 28-33 of the Preliminary Report. The pilots did not follow there own MCAS procedures which specifically warned of all the alarms going off.

They had two other valid sources of Airspeed. You would have to look at ET's procedures to see what they say - but probably something along the lines of - if you get stick shaker cross check with the Co-pilots Airspeed and the Standby instrument to see if it's erroneous.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:50 pm

ZKCIF wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/9/21059420/boeing-employees-messages-737-max-investigation-simulator-crash
check page 19 of the letters (20 February 2017; 12:22). I won't quote. Just read for yourselves, folks. If this letter is not fake, I just don't know what to say


Page 19? Why should be we worried if it's not fake? As I suspected based on previous message dumps, I'm underwhelmed. The e-mails don't show the context some people appear to be hoping they show, but they're trying to tie it together anyway. People talking about simulator issues isn't useful for more than PR shaming that misleads (e.g. "frightening" in the title). More and more people are being misled by the media machine, and many are happily watching it work.

StTim wrote:
This is a fully discredited opinion. Yes some pilots may have saved the plane but they should never have been put in that position. The MAX had to be grounded and properly fixed.


So you say it's discredited opinion . . . and then immediately confirm the plausibility of it.

The only thing discredited here is your statement that it's discredited.
 
kayik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:53 pm

At the bottom of page 98 they forgot to delete the names. It is Patrik Gustavsson and Neil I-Foy. If I found the right guy, Neil used to work for Boeing at the time he now is the owner of Fenix industrial simulators in Canada.
 
Armodeen
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:58 pm

Just when you think it can’t get any worse, more and more shocking revelations are released. I’m stunned that Boeing would discourage customers from buying sims purely based on how it would look to other regional airlines, and thus effect their chances of further sales.

If this was Lion, and one of the pilots had undertaken sim time, then maybe things would have been different.

sergegva wrote:
pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.


There is also this e-mail:

"I am concerned that if (censored, but it should be Lion Air) chooses to require a MAX simulator for its pilots beyond what all other regulators are requiring that it will be creating a difficult and unnecessary training burden for your airline, as well as potentially establish a precedent in your region for other MAX customers".
Another mail follows with arguments to dissuade them from asking for a simulator, as "Rather than require a simulator event, you may want to consider what other airlines have thought about (...). I believe, based on other operator imputs, that you will find any of these solutions to be acceptable. A simulator training requirement would be quite burdensome to your operation"

A few months ago, people wondered here why there were so few, if any, 737 MAX simulators available. Now we understand why. And I'll pass on the condescending tone used towards this airline...

(https://seekingalpha.com/article/431611 ... ed-737-max , page 33)

EDIT: Page 34 is worse.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:09 pm

smartplane wrote:
Based on writing style, there seems to be an absence of correspondence to / from and between senior management. Were they were more careful, already deleted, or yet to be discovered?

It's a good question, IMO.

Many of the emails contain trailers stating the author is 737 chief technical pilot, the title Forkner had, and we already know from October that he used the 'jedi mind tricks' line.

I guess that is an impressive title but not what I'd call senior management, certainly not corporate suite grade. I don't get the impression that any senior or board level management is in any of these communications.

It's pretty easy to get the idea that the people in the emails/texts are being set up to be sacrificial goats and ones above them are being protected, but it's hard to prove that.

It's also pretty easy to get the idea that whomever directed the preparation of this bundle/dump was willing to share more information on this one aspect of MAX's development, the sim qualification and training aspect that has already received a lot of exposure, yet worked hard to not broaden the scope to include other areas.

Boeing's presser described the dump as being "in furtherance of the company’s commitment to transparency with our regulator and strong safety oversight of our industry" ( ref: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130600 ) which doesn't really say about what they chose to communicate and what they chose to not communicate.

The common element seems to be those who worked closest with the regulators, no?

It very well could be that Forkner was/is an easy target because of is position with regard to interacting with the regulators and because of the things he put into writing using some pretty lurid language, and that others were simply more careful about how they expressed themselves via the written word.

As I wrote above, the dump seems to be strangely focused.
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kayik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:10 pm

Bottom of page 3, Forkner instructing Morrisond. :)

Top of page 3, Forkner says he is pressurized. Probably, at some stage, he will be asked to elaborate on this.
Last edited by kayik on Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:12 pm

Armodeen wrote:
Just when you think it can’t get any worse, more and more shocking revelations are released. I’m stunned that Boeing would discourage customers from buying sims purely based on how it would look to other regional airlines, and thus effect their chances of further sales.

If this was Lion, and one of the pilots had undertaken sim time, then maybe things would have been different.

sergegva wrote:
pasen wrote:
Another interesting piece from the Seattle Times:

One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling. ... one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how an airline in the Lion Air Group was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX. ... In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... f-737-max/

I guess, this puts the whole discussion about those “badly trained 3rd world pilots” into different light.


There is also this e-mail:

"I am concerned that if (censored, but it should be Lion Air) chooses to require a MAX simulator for its pilots beyond what all other regulators are requiring that it will be creating a difficult and unnecessary training burden for your airline, as well as potentially establish a precedent in your region for other MAX customers".
Another mail follows with arguments to dissuade them from asking for a simulator, as "Rather than require a simulator event, you may want to consider what other airlines have thought about (...). I believe, based on other operator imputs, that you will find any of these solutions to be acceptable. A simulator training requirement would be quite burdensome to your operation"

A few months ago, people wondered here why there were so few, if any, 737 MAX simulators available. Now we understand why. And I'll pass on the condescending tone used towards this airline...

(https://seekingalpha.com/article/431611 ... ed-737-max , page 33)

EDIT: Page 34 is worse.

So will we also see lawsuits against Boeing from affected airlines on top of the compensation claims as apparently Boeing has withheld and falsified critical information?
 
snasteve
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:18 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
Just when you think it can’t get any worse, more and more shocking revelations are released. I’m stunned that Boeing would discourage customers from buying sims purely based on how it would look to other regional airlines, and thus effect their chances of further sales.

If this was Lion, and one of the pilots had undertaken sim time, then maybe things would have been different.

sergegva wrote:

There is also this e-mail:

"I am concerned that if (censored, but it should be Lion Air) chooses to require a MAX simulator for its pilots beyond what all other regulators are requiring that it will be creating a difficult and unnecessary training burden for your airline, as well as potentially establish a precedent in your region for other MAX customers".
Another mail follows with arguments to dissuade them from asking for a simulator, as "Rather than require a simulator event, you may want to consider what other airlines have thought about (...). I believe, based on other operator imputs, that you will find any of these solutions to be acceptable. A simulator training requirement would be quite burdensome to your operation"

A few months ago, people wondered here why there were so few, if any, 737 MAX simulators available. Now we understand why. And I'll pass on the condescending tone used towards this airline...

(https://seekingalpha.com/article/431611 ... ed-737-max , page 33)

EDIT: Page 34 is worse.

So will we also see lawsuits against Boeing from affected airlines on top of the compensation claims as apparently Boeing has withheld and falsified critical information?


The legal team at Boeing has gone through all of this and probably have decided that they can’t even defend it. It’s about damage mitigation at this point and getting the inevitable over with. Boeing is going to be writing a lot of checks to avoid losing in court.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:33 pm

I find it very interesting that this series of emails (and data dump) only involves training requirements and simulator development; and my quick skimming did not show anything about the safety evaluation of MCAS V1 that allowed it to be classified as not catastrophic... (which is where I believe the key mistake was made). That is were the real meat of the legal issues are. Why was MCAS V1 allowed in the 1st place.

The training requirement is in my opinion a small fish in comparison; and there is nothing inherently illegal in having no simulator training requirement for things which do not meet certain safety evaluation risks. Perhaps "sacrificial lamb" might be more appropriate as to the release of these emails.

It would be far more interesting and informative to see the emails of the group that did the safety evaluation....

Have a great day,

Have a great day,
 
Baldr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:40 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
ZKCIF wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/9/21059420/boeing-employees-messages-737-max-investigation-simulator-crash
check page 19 of the letters (20 February 2017; 12:22). I won't quote. Just read for yourselves, folks. If this letter is not fake, I just don't know what to say


Page 19? Why should be we worried if it's not fake? As I suspected based on previous message dumps, I'm underwhelmed. The e-mails don't show the context some people appear to be hoping they show, but they're trying to tie it together anyway. People talking about simulator issues isn't useful for more than PR shaming that misleads (e.g. "frightening" in the title). More and more people are being misled by the media machine, and many are happily watching it work.

StTim wrote:
This is a fully discredited opinion. Yes some pilots may have saved the plane but they should never have been put in that position. The MAX had to be grounded and properly fixed.


So you say it's discredited opinion . . . and then immediately confirm the plausibility of it.

The only thing discredited here is your statement that it's discredited.


The people who are being increasingly discredited here are those with a shameful pattern of online behavior trying to pin the blame of the MAX crashes on "third world pilots."

MSPNWA said: More and more people are being misled by the media machine, and many are happily watching it work.


The MAX crisis is entirely of Boeing's own making. Therefore, Boeing's misfortune is not helped by what appears to be a number of increasingly desperate Boeing aficionados going after the media and accusing others of Schadenfreude with respect to the MAX situation.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:46 pm

Armodeen wrote:
Just when you think it can’t get any worse, more and more shocking revelations are released. I’m stunned that Boeing would discourage customers from buying sims purely based on how it would look to other regional airlines, and thus effect their chances of further sales.

If this was Lion, and one of the pilots had undertaken sim time, then maybe things would have been different.


Context, people. Without it, you're jumping to wild conclusions. The entire e-mail chain gives us a good piece of the context. It clearly points to the simulator training questions being about the ability to fly the plane from day one. It points to an operational/legal sense for the airline, not a technical one about the airplane, such as MCAS. It also can't be ruled out from what we see that the airline was wanting a favor from Boeing. The motive for requesting simulator training that isn't necessary can come from noble and ignoble areas. And yes, I would expect a producer to be careful about allowing customers to dictate the terms beyond the standard set by regulators.

I could more easily construe those messages as not speaking highly of those at the airline. It makes you wonder if they know what they're doing when it comes to integrating a new model. So no, things would undoubtedly not have been different with the sim time they're talking about.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:47 pm

2175301 wrote:
I find it very interesting that this series of emails (and data dump) only involves training requirements and simulator development; and my quick skimming did not show anything about the safety evaluation of MCAS V1 that allowed it to be classified as not catastrophic... (which is where I believe the key mistake was made). That is were the real meat of the legal issues are. Why was MCAS V1 allowed in the 1st place.

The training requirement is in my opinion a small fish in comparison; and there is nothing inherently illegal in having no simulator training requirement for things which do not meet certain safety evaluation risks. Perhaps "sacrificial lamb" might be more appropriate as to the release of these emails.

It would be far more interesting and informative to see the emails of the group that did the safety evaluation....

These are good observations.

Here's one from the now well known Satcom Guru, Peter Lemme:

The internal Boeing communications that are out in the public eye are indeed very troubling.
I would harken to the point that the issues raised have been subsequently assessed without any new concern.
There is a difference when you are the system designer Vs training pilots.

Ref: https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 0179459072

So he seems to think it is a matter of perspective.

The ones the training people are providing is pretty troubling.

We really don't have much insight as to what the system designers concerns were, IMO.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:50 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
The motive for requesting simulator training that isn't necessary can come from noble and ignoble areas.



And next you will tell us that the people "saving Boeing 1000's of $" with each phone call or email in which they managed to "convince" airlines that sim training is avoidable also handled in a noble sense, right?

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MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:58 pm

2175301 wrote:
I find it very interesting that this series of emails (and data dump) only involves training requirements and simulator development; and my quick skimming did not show anything about the safety evaluation of MCAS V1 that allowed it to be classified as not catastrophic... (which is where I believe the key mistake was made). That is were the real meat of the legal issues are. Why was MCAS V1 allowed in the 1st place.

The training requirement is in my opinion a small fish in comparison; and there is nothing inherently illegal in having no simulator training requirement for things which do not meet certain safety evaluation risks. Perhaps "sacrificial lamb" might be more appropriate as to the release of these emails.

It would be far more interesting and informative to see the emails of the group that did the safety evaluation....


I agree. The "sacrificial" lamb tactic is the only motive I can think of for the release of communications that are irrelevant to MCAS design.

Baldr wrote:
The people who are being increasingly discredited here are those with a shameful pattern of online behavior trying to pin the blame of the MAX crashes on "third world pilots."


You're entitled to your opinion. My suggestion is to allow facts to help determine that opinion. You can certainly argue with the clear logic behind the inconsistent statements I pointed out, but you can never be right.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:59 pm

Baldr wrote:
The people who are being increasingly discredited here are those with a shameful pattern of online behavior trying to pin the blame of the MAX crashes on "third world pilots."

[


Or the ones who can't read and understand that no one is trying to pin it on "third world pilots", but that the crashes unearthed serious inadequacies in the training systems as well.

Next time you are on final approach with a lot of turbulence and a severe crosswind just ask yourself - would I like a pilot with a ton of experience and the ability to fly in this situation or would a button pusher suffice?

The most telling comment I see from the emails is the one in the middle from Page 3 "Thanks. I fear that skill is not that intuitive any more with the younger pilots and those who have become too reliant on automation"

They just can't handle anything that is out of the ordinary at all and some people here seem fine with that and think that is an okay level of skill. If you want Cab drivers - why are we paying them Pilot's wages?
 
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United787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:05 pm

phollingsworth wrote:
However, I do wonder what you believe are the inherent flaws of the 737MAX that are not present on all other modern airliners?


This is an oversimplification but: those engines on those wings on that fuselage. There are hundreds of other posts that go into more detail but that is the inherent flaw. Boeing's 1st mistake, of many, was not doing a clean sheet design. Their 2nd mistake was not doing a clean sheet design...

SteelChair wrote:
I reassert what I said several months ago. Time to stop the MAX program take a $40B charge, fire up the NG program for 4 years, and design an all new airplane. Fire most of the top management, scrap all the MAX frames and totally remake the company. Employees will need to take pay and benefit cuts. Everyone will need to pull together to make it work.


This, exactly!
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:17 pm

sone beoing employees said this plane was designed by clowns sound pretty bad for Boeing.
 
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:20 pm

United787 wrote:
phollingsworth wrote:
However, I do wonder what you believe are the inherent flaws of the 737MAX that are not present on all other modern airliners?


This is an oversimplification but: those engines on those wings on that fuselage. There are hundreds of other posts that go into more detail but that is the inherent flaw. Boeing's 1st mistake, of many, was not doing a clean sheet design. Their 2nd mistake was not doing a clean sheet design...

SteelChair wrote:
I reassert what I said several months ago. Time to stop the MAX program take a $40B charge, fire up the NG program for 4 years, and design an all new airplane. Fire most of the top management, scrap all the MAX frames and totally remake the company. Employees will need to take pay and benefit cuts. Everyone will need to pull together to make it work.


This, exactly!


Yes - but just remember - as REV pointed out it would have been the same clowns designing the clean sheet.

At least it would have been a lot easier to hide any potential Aerodynamic flaws with FBW though.

Does anyone know if EASA actually flew it's tests this week? Did anyone track anything?

Assuming they tested without MCAS and as there has been no reports of more MAX lawn darts if they did find anything obviously it was recoverable.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:26 pm

Reading here how everyone is surprised after reading internal correspondence among Boeing employees, I wonder where do you guys work. When I was in consulting, we were all bitching like crazy at every lunch break. The language we used was ten times worse than this. Some people just love to be drama queens so their comments are even more intense. To be honest, I wouldn't worry too much about these comments. I think it's a typical corporate BS life venting.

Comments I've heard at an airline I worked at wouldn't have you step your foot on a plane, but I knew it was just a bunch of smarta**es trying to be cool and "tough".
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.

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